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Darklighter
June 19, 2008, 12:39 PM
I just wanted to give my review of Donald Prothero's Evolution: What The Fossils Say And Why It Matters (http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-What-Fossils-Say-Matters/dp/0231139624/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213889359&sr=8-1). I'm not sure how many of you have heard of this book as it's reletivaly new (2007), but I highly recommend it.

Since I've always been interested in the more "physical" sciences like well, physics and astronomy, I realized during my deconversion that I need to educate myself on the basics of evolution. In addition to other sources, this book helps to accomplish that extremely well. It's constructed to counter the creationist claim that "There are no transitional fossils", and after reading this book I'm suprised anyone can even utter those words without their God striking them with lightning, since NOTHING could be further from the truth.

Right off the bat, Prothero educates us on just what science is, and what it isn't, and why creationism (or ID for that matter) has no place in science. After briefly talking about the plausibility of abiogenesis, Prothereo lays out the transitions from simple single celled life to multicelled, and then from soft bodied organisms to ones with hard parts. Completely destroying the "Cambrian Explosion" myth, turning it instead into a "slow-fuse". The reason it appears to explode (superficially anyway) is because soft parts don't fossilize well, and that was when hard parts were becoming more common! Then he goes into the transitions from invertebrates to chordates to full-on backbones. From Fish to amphibian (shockingly perfect transitions!). Amphibian to amniotes and reptiles and dinosaurs. Dinosaurs to birds (again... shocking!). Then from amniote to synapsid to mammals. His chapter on the 'Mamalian Explosion' is a particularly satisfying read, touching on the human's favorite mammals: cats and dogs. I was suprised to learn that bears are caniforms and are closely related to... dogs. He then spends some time on some specific cases of the evolution of some of our comtemporary mamalian cousins; like the horse, the rhinocerous, and the girraffids. The latter is particularly interesting because one battle cry of the creationists has been: "Why havn't there been any giraffes found with necks 1/2 as long as they are today?!?!" Well as of just recently... THEY HAVE! He then describes the transition of ancient hippo-like carnivorous mammals to modern whales and dolphins (ask a creationist, "Why did God create whales with non-functional legs?"). And of course, he provides the expected devestating case for human evolution.

Prothero even touches on the weak foundation that creationism rests on in the first place. He debunks the biblical descriptions of creation, and so-called flood-geology, and even touches on the documentary hypothesis.

Prothero is a geologist and a paleontologist. He actually has his hands in the dirt, rocks, and fossils. He is actually researching and making discoveries. Unlike the creationist critics who have no qualifications of their own and must resort to quote-mining and deceit to make their case.

In short, Prothero proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a veritable flip-book of documented transitional forms all the way from single celled organisms to homo sapiens.

How any one could deny this evidence is astounding. How I denied this amazing evidence for so many years is astounding.

~~~~~

Prothereo pretty much refutes every claim that creationists have ever made and explains things in easy to understand terms. And even provides his arguements with a light dose of humour. With my own understanding of evolution being pretty weak, this book has been a gawd-send, and has given me a great desire to deepen that understanding.

If you live your life surrounded by creationists... this is the perfect all-in-one book to have on hand.

Chemist99a
June 19, 2008, 01:01 PM
If you live your life surrounded by creationists... this is the perfect all-in-one book to have on hand.

Well the bible is a handy throwable object. Throwing one at a creationist or threatening to shoot the bible seems to repel them effectively. Its also handy to have your own oddball religious sect to use. You are probably unaware that I am the hereditary pope of the round-church the only religion to have copies of the ONE TRUE BOOK of which all the various bibles are but poorly done imitations. Also its the only holy book whose original language is English and which was recorded DIRECTLY by GOD himself instead of some unreliable human.

Keith C
June 19, 2008, 01:11 PM
Darklighter,
If you only started reading up on evolution since your deconversion, what actually caused your deconversion?

Chemist99a
June 19, 2008, 01:12 PM
Darklighter,
If you only started reading up on evolution since your deconversion, what actually caused your deconversion?

Logic, Reason, Observation of Reality? :)

rickP
June 19, 2008, 01:25 PM
I just started reading this bood the other day. I haven't had much quality "library" time, so I'm only in the first chapter, but I'm already finding it to be well written for the non scientist and enjoyable. I'm looking forward to more time to read it all.

Darklighter
June 19, 2008, 02:01 PM
If you live your life surrounded by creationists... this is the perfect all-in-one book to have on hand.

Well the bible is a handy throwable object. Throwing one at a creationist or threatening to shoot the bible seems to repel them effectively. Its also handy to have your own oddball religious sect to use. You are probably unaware that I am the hereditary pope of the round-church the only religion to have copies of the ONE TRUE BOOK of which all the various bibles are but poorly done imitations. Also its the only holy book whose original language is English and which was recorded DIRECTLY by GOD himself instead of some unreliable human.

:rolling:

Darklighter,
If you only started reading up on evolution since your deconversion, what actually caused your deconversion?

Logic, Reason, Observation of Reality? :)

Exactly.:D

But seriously... I kinda did things out of order I guess. First there was the Bible itself. Exekiels failed "Tyre" prophecy was in there somewhere... Then I realized that all of the prophecies were less-than-amazing, and we actually had no proof that any of the specific ones were written before-the-fact... Occam's razor took over after that. I also found out that modern methods of dating are very reliable. Then there was the metaphysical problems of an omnipotent God that I've struggled with all my life (If God is all-wise, all-powerful, and all-loving, why the fuck does he behave like a spoiled 10-year-old in the OT? The qualities the Bible says God has are not consistent with the portrait it paints of him OR with the world we see around us.) But as I mentioned, I've always had an interest in astronomy, and I realized that the Genesis account of the creation of the sun and moon and stars cannot be reconciled with how the universe and our solar system actually came to be. The more I struggled with all these issues I finally just realized I was defending the indefensable.

So even though I had already been mentally deconverted, Evolution was just the last piece of the puzzle. It's like when your putting a puzzle together you know what the picture shows long before you're actually done. That's how i was able to deconvert without Evolution. I've acutally been researching it for a while but this is the first full book I've read on it.

OH! And also I forgot to mention... I did a report promoting ID about a year ago in college, and even though I got an A on it... I found myself unconvinced by my own arguement. Even though I still knew little about evolution, I knew the holes in my logic.


I just started reading this bood the other day. I haven't had much quality "library" time, so I'm only in the first chapter, but I'm already finding it to be well written for the non scientist and enjoyable. I'm looking forward to more time to read it all.

Sweet! You'll dig it. I guarantee.

Chemist99a
June 19, 2008, 02:43 PM
So even though I had already been mentally deconverted, Evolution was just the last piece of the puzzle.

Indeed it puts the last vestiges of needing a prior being to build the universe. Again Darwins insight was how design might be achieved without a designer being. And this applied to the most complex systems we know about namely living organisms. It IS possible to derive complexity from underlying simplicity. It is possible for testable natural law to give rise to the universe and ourselves. Sentience CAN evolve rather than requiring creation by an external being. And of course somewhere along the way you came to understand that human beings can be the source of morality without some external authority being required.

As an atheist Christian, I have come to realize the real message of Christ. Christ freed all mankind from sin, not by his execution, but rather by his teachings which relieved mankind of the self-imposed guilt of original sin and from much of the harshness of the theologically derived "laws" of the day. A replacement of GODs AUTHORITY with a supportive and loving social structure.

Darklighter
June 19, 2008, 03:02 PM
And of course somewhere along the way you came to understand that human beings can be the source of morality without some external authority being required.

Spot on. This is a very difficult concept for fundies to grasp, as I've seen from talking to my parents. "Why do we love our children? God must've put that into us, because that's how he feel about us!" Ummm... if we didn't love and care for our children... we wouldn't be here. It's very simple from an evolutionary perspective.

"Reducing" our morals and feelings to be the result of so-called "survival instinct" in no way lessens their relevence and necessity. I find this subjec fascinating. Robert wright's The Moral Animal (http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Animal-Science-Evolutionary-Psychology/dp/0679763996/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213901439&sr=8-1) is next on my list.

Also, (It's not on evolutionary psychology but...) I'm also looking forward to reading Neil Shubin's Your Inner Fish (http://www.amazon.com/Your-Inner-Fish-Journey-3-5-Billion-Year/dp/0375424474/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213901948&sr=1-1)

As an atheist Christian, I have come to realize the real message of Christ. Christ freed all mankind from sin, not by his execution, but rather by his teachings which relieved mankind of the self-imposed guilt of original sin and from much of the harshness of the theologically derived "laws" of the day. A replacement of GODs AUTHORITY with a supportive and loving social structure.

I havn't thought enough about this to comment. But I will. :)

bobforapples
June 19, 2008, 03:15 PM
OH! And also I forgot to mention... I did a report promoting ID about a year ago in college, and even though I got an A on it... I found myself unconvinced by my own arguement. Even though I still knew little about evolution, I knew the holes in my logic.


At what college would a professor would give an A for a paper about ID? Was is a persuasive writing, or some other english course?

Allied35
June 19, 2008, 04:06 PM
As an atheist Christian, I have come to realize the real message of Christ. Christ freed all mankind from sin, not by his execution, but rather by his teachings which relieved mankind of the self-imposed guilt of original sin and from much of the harshness of the theologically derived "laws" of the day. A replacement of GODs AUTHORITY with a supportive and loving social structure.

Didn't the self-imposed guilt just get replaced with the church-imposed guilts of a myriad of "sins" like coveting one's wife, sex before marriage etc?

A replacement of GODs AUTHORITY with a supportive and loving social structure.
Which loving and supportive social structure are you talking about? Christianity??? As long as you're a member maybe.:huh:

Darklighter
June 19, 2008, 04:17 PM
At what college would a professor would give an A for a paper about ID? Was is a persuasive writing, or some other english course?

Haha... good question. It wasn't a science class... thank Zeus. You're correct... It was an Expository Composition English class. The whole point of the assignment was to present a well made case for a controversial topic that the opposing perspective could at least respect. The cool thing is, my English teacher was NOT religious. So I guess I actually did a good job... I don't know. But like I said... I knew the problems with my logic, and I knew what I purposely left out.

It really amouted to my last theistic gasps of air. I should post the paper and let you all rip it to shreds. That might be fun to see. Haha, my sacrifice to the heathen.

Daggah
June 19, 2008, 06:09 PM
I guess in about 8 years Captain Rock will be misquoting Donald Prothero all the while insisting that this book is a "must-have" on the desk of any "evolutionist." :D

Coragyps
June 19, 2008, 06:24 PM
Also, (It's not on evolutionary psychology but...) I'm also looking forward to reading Neil Shubin's Your Inner Fish.

Yes. I highly recommend it.
And now I have to get Prothero. Good thing my son always sends bookstore gift certificates for Father's Day. :D

JragonFli
June 19, 2008, 06:39 PM
Most teachers will give an A for any paper....as long as you type it, and the first sentence looks good, they stamp an A rather than take the time to read.

Darklighter
June 19, 2008, 07:25 PM
Most teachers will give an A for any paper....as long as you type it, and the first sentence looks good, they stamp an A rather than take the time to read.

Thanks... for a second there I thought I might be special. You've reminded me I have no need for self-esteem. :frown:

JK:p

Underseer
June 19, 2008, 08:48 PM
Darklighter,
If you only started reading up on evolution since your deconversion, what actually caused your deconversion?

Have you read the "deconversion stories" thread over in the Lifestyle forum? Most deconversions are caused by inconsistencies in the Bible itself. Darklighter is perfectly normal for an apostate.

Darklighter
June 19, 2008, 11:39 PM
ignore.