Has II deconverted anyone?

[Shake]

Probably not. But I was just wondering how much effect we of the II Forums have had on visitors and even regulars that have been here for a while. Were you someone who was maybe on the fence, but after visiting here for a while, decided to drop religion? I'd say I was simply a weak atheist when I started lurking here, but after a while, I became stronger in my atheism due to all the wonderful support and education that is available here. So, generally, how has the II changed you?

[K]

Shake:

I think somebody named RainbowWalking deconverted because of II. But that was before my time here so some of the more seasoned participants would have to fill you in on the details.

[Tom Sawyer]

When I came here I was an athesit-leaning agnostic. I didn't really believe in God, but I really didn't disbelieve in hi either - I just hadn't given the matter all that much thought.

Since coming here, I've become a full-fledged atheist. Reading the arguments for and against God, I realized I was correct in not giving Him all that much thought before.

There's also the added benefit that I'm living down in the Bible Belt right now and have a lot of good data to use against all the silly xian arguments I hear all the time.

[frostymama]

II wasn't responsible for my deconversion, but a couple of the posters here (namely Rhea and Aspen Mama) can take part of the credit.

[BigJim]

Lil / Tricia.

Has anyone heard from her lately?

[Mad Kally]

Tricia shows up in infidelchat once in awhile. Her parents still have her computer in the kitchen so they can spy on her. We email each other sometimes..

Bree is another xian who was deconverted here.

[DigitalChicken]

I know someone who read got rid of his "last straw" regarding god after reading an article from the Freedom From Religion Foundation which was at that time hosted only by II.

Does that count?

DC

[Manta]

I'm mostly in the same boat petehy is in...literally & figuratively. leaning one way or the other...most of the time it takes more energy to get into religious discussions than I'm willing to spend.

I've got certain things I tend to be vocal & supportive of...(...later...much later...) and those take my energy. I'm slowly aging into old-fart-dom...so I must ration the few brain cells I've got left.

The more I read here, the more I'm leaning & about ready to fall off the fence. I have noticed several posters from Georgia and can attest that I am also suffering from bible-beltisms. Work doesn't help. They shove it down our throats on occasions...and to keep peace I just remain silent. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

CaptainDave might be seeing me soon, <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> though ...I'm headed to Pradise next year :D (be very afraid, dave!)

-K

[Mageth]

Several people have expressed in the past that the II played at least a part in their deconversion. It helped me through mine, I know (as a lurker). Rainbow Walking and Lil/Tricia have already been mentioned.

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

Well, II didn't deconvert me, but it did help me realize that I was correct in disbelieving in God. I had finally admitted my Atheism late last year or early this year, and I stumbled on this site. I think I signed up for the discussion board, but didn't post much for awhile. Instead I read the articles and what not. I was already an Atheist when I came here, but reading this site helped me put my reasons in perspective and gave me a clearer view of Atheism.

Not exactly a deconversion, but it was immesely helpful.

-Nick

[Talulah]

I was on the fence when I started reading here. I started posting before I gave up religion all-together and it was II combined with reading a lot of anti-religious information on the internet that led to me totally casting it off. A lot of the things that I read also came from the II library.

Oddly enough, when I first came here I was very shy of reading things. "Blasphemy" scared me even though I sure thought enough of my own blaphemous thoughts. It was the saying of things against religion that was so unfamiliar with me it gave me an uneasy feeling.

It didn't take me long to get over it thought and now I am proud and godless. :)

[echidna]

I was nailed on top of the fence when I arrived & the nails are still stubbornly holding firm. Some of my reasoning has changed though (I wasn’t familiar the FTA for instance and I had a wishful desire for Lamarkianism), but beyond that I’m still devoutly agnostic. Shit I didn’t know what LOL meant, had never heard of Pascal’s Wager & couldn’t even follow a moral subjectivity / objectivity argument.

May 2001 : Ignorant bigot
October 2002 : Less ignorant bigot

I should add :

May 2005 : Knowledgable bigot ?

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: echidna ]</p>

[K]

I became an atheist on my own only telling my wife. She became an agnostic with slight deist/pantheist leanings at about the same time. I stumbled onto II while looking to see if it was possible to lessen the isolation I felt after hearing about the backlash against the Newdow decision. I was amazed to find that many of the people here were using the same lines of reasoning I went through in my deconversion. If there was ever a chance that my atheism wouldn't stick, it was completely gone.

[Albion]

When I arrived there were a bunch of posts from mattmattmattmattIV (or something like that) complaining that he'd lost his faith after some rather acrimonious discussions, and it sounded as if it had happened here. He sounded dreadfully unhappy. I always wondered what happened to him.

[Aquila ka Hecate]

I guess you could count me in.

I was a wiccan of the high priestess genus when I got here (late last year), although to be fair to myself I wasn't rabid.

II has helped me in the process of actually thinking for myself in that once-sacred area, religion.

Funny how many of us who are otherwise rational and intelligent will rope off a segment of life and label it 'unquestionable/untouchable'.

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Aquila ka Hecate ]</p>

[Captain Pedantic]

I went from "technically agnostic" to atheist, which I don't think is much of a conversion. I think about 100 people like me would count as one real Christian conversion.

Still, it did give me food for thought.

[Perchance]

Same boat as Captain Pedantic; I would have called myself a 'strong agnostic' (if there is such a thing) when I arrived here, pretty sure that I would never be sure, if that makes any sense. Now I do call myself an atheist, in that I'm an atheist as far as specific concepts of god go, and don't really see a need to live my life by the precepts of deism or pantheism, which accept a concept of god that I'm still agnostic to.

I might have become an intellectual weak atheist on my own (I've been living like one for over a decade), but II helped speed the process.

-Perchance.

[Kosh]

It would seem the internet is religions worse nightmare. Free education for all on both sides of the issue.

Let us not forget our pal Amie, who promised to prove the Flood to us using only 6 books. Her last post indicated she was struggling with cognitive dissonance, where what she had learned (trying to back up her claims) was conflicting with what she felt in her heart.

She then disappeared without saying goodbye.

So I say she either:

1) Gave up religion completely
2) Gave up on being a Fundy
3) Got hit by a Bible truck the next day

[never been there]

From what I've read on this site, the Christian web groups have been doing a much better job of deconverting believers. This is where they come after deconverting.

[Bree]

[quote]Originally posted by Mad Kally:
<strong>Bree is another xian who was deconverted here.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And Mad Kally is the infidel who is largely responsible for my deconversion :) .

[beoba]

[quote]Originally posted by peteyh:
<strong>I just hadn't given the matter all that much thought [until coming to the II].</strong><hr></blockquote>

Same.

[Shake]

[quote]And Mad Kally is the infidel who is largely responsible for my deconversion :) <hr></blockquote>All Hail Mad Kally! <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

[RufusAtticus]

The converse of this question is if anyone knows of a Christian BB that has managed to convert anyone to Christianity. (I'm not talking about between sects or denominations.) Christian Forums for example, exists to attempt to prothelyze people. Most of their faq is devoted to "How to Become a Christian." (I'm not joking.)

Furthermore, it is against their rules to "promote" any other religion except Christianity. Many mods use this rule to squash educational discussions about other religions, even among Christians. (Knowledge makes baby Jesus cry or something.) In all my interaction on ChristianForums, I haven't encountered anyone being converted over there.

Don't get me started on the jackasses who run BaptistBoard. . . .

Why does II affect people and these Christian Boards don't? Simple, we look to educate and not indoctrinate.

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

[Wasatch]

This BB is helping me a lot. I have pretty much left Mormonism. I went thru a short Jesus thing. The “Jesus Mystery” cured me of that.
I still want to believe in a Supreme something and life after death.
I’ll continue to pretty much lurk away.

Wasatch

[brighid]

II has definitely been responsible in my overall deconversion! When I 1st came here I was an agnostic/deist/pagan with leanings toward atheism but I wasn’t sure that is where I wanted to be. My 1st year here put me into a struggle with my paganism and what I began to feel intellectually in regard to atheism. I was definitely more “spiritual” when I 1st started here. It’s interesting for me to read the poetry I wrote before I came here, in the beginning and what my views of that poetry are now. My husband has been very understanding and indulgent of my phases and he remains deist/very liberal Christian sort of …

I believe if I had access to the diverse information provided by II years ago I would have deconverted then. This is why the information here is so dangerous to the hold theism has on millions of people. If they were never indoctrinated and had the ability to choose between the most rational explanations (even if they don’t answer ALL the questions) … maybe things would be different.

Brighid

[CaptainDave]

I've been an atheist since about 12. The strength of my conviction varied over the years but solidified beyond any doubt when I found the internet in 1995. The old alt.atheism news group was my first exposure to internet atheism.

I agree with Kosh: The internet is religion's worst nightmare. People who doubted religion in years past had few places to turn. Now they can annonomously type "atheism" into a search engine and find a world of information and support.

[Ronin]

Has anyone professed atheism and then reaffirmed the spiritual faith of their choice?

[Shake]

[quote]The internet is religion's worst nightmare. People who doubted religion in years past had few places to turn. Now they can annonomously type "atheism" into a search engine and find a world of information and support.<hr></blockquote>Well, yes and no. As others have pointed out, there are a host of Xian sites as well, where people can get their faith reinforced. But yes, those who may be afraid to come out of the 'godless closet' may find a place like this site to show them that they're not alone, and others are going through what they are. That's why I like the SL&S forum, too. Now I feel strong enough to help others free themselves from their religious shackles. :cool:

[Seeker196]

It's definitely helped knowing you aren't a total freak.

You know this line of thought:
"90% of everyone I know seems to believe so unquestioningly what seems to me like a bunch of BS. Am I maybe making some kind of huge error? How does one know that they are really being very stupid? Homer saying 'everyone is stupid except me' doesn't seem very good does it"

And then you get out...and see that:
a) 90% have never really thought about it because it makes them uncomfortable.
b) 10%....10%....we know this 10% well (At least I hope it's only 10%. Note: '10%' is just a rhetorical device)...yes, Virginia, there really are morons out there.
c) the other 10% who thought seriously about it for one reason or another.

hmm...110%...well you get the idea it just takes to long to type 'a large portion'

[babelfish]

Me too! I had already been thinking some atheistic thoughts for several years, but all around me were people talking about praying and God and miracles and I thought well, maybe I'm the crazy one. Except I'd read some of the old philosophers, and some Thomas Paine, but nobody in the world today seemed to be speaking up about it. Especially not those in high places: the (evil, secular, hah!) government and the (evil, secular) media seemed to be full of references to God.

Then I found this place and found out I wasn't alone after all and most atheists were not hedonistic drug addicted promiscuous mass murderers, and I could heave a huge sigh of relief.

[sakrilege]

[quote]Originally posted by babelfish:
<strong>... most atheists were not hedonistic drug addicted promiscuous mass murderers ...</strong><hr></blockquote>


Speak for yourself. :eek:

[babelfish]

[quote]Originally posted by sakrilege:
<strong>


Speak for yourself. :eek: </strong><hr></blockquote>

I did say "most."

;)

[Jagged]

[quote]The internet is religion's worst nightmare.<hr></blockquote>

I think this is really true. Cuz Xians can find reinforcement for their faith easily in the "real world," but are scared to death to ask anyone that knows them about their doubts. Seriously, I could not have asked ANYONE in my old religious/social circle any question seriously doubting the existence of god or the inerrancy of the bible. Cuz I would either be shunned or attacked. Everyone knows this so we keep our mouths and brains shut. But the Internet is so anonymous... Noone will know... And even learning how to get answers to non-religious questions over the net is very empowering. (HOW DID I LIVE WITHOUT THE INTERNET?!) Knowledge is power to the individual. Internet is lots of knowledge. Internet is power to individual. (Did that work with the rules of logic?)

*have now blessed you with my wisdom for the day* LOL :D

[Shake]

*BUMP*
due to recent new deconversions, I thought it'd be nice to resurrect (I know that's not spelled rite ;) ) this ol' thread!

[Mageth]

Actually, you spelled it right...;)

[mike_decock]

The articles and refutations of apologetic writings on II played a large role in my deconversion.

Thank God for the Infidels!... Oh, wait... I gotta unlearn all my God-speak... :(

-Mike...

[wildernesse]

Jagged's post highlights what is wrong with Christianity. I do not talk about my questions and thoughts about religion with other Christians--not even online really. I don't need the hassle of being attacked based on what I might be thinking about.

I enjoy Infidels because it is a sounding board for my ideas and questions. While I don't think that this is the most objective site for that purpose, it's pretty good.

As for deconversion--no, I haven't. :)

--tibac

[Arvel Joffi]

Originally posted by babelfish
...Then I found this place and found out I wasn't alone after all and most atheists were not hedonistic drug addicted promiscuous mass murderers...

The ones who are just have more fun!

[Calzaer]

It's also funny to find a year-old reference to Aime. I thought she was only slightly less new than I was. Hrm.

[Magus55]

So many lost people on here from the deconversion list. Would to hate to be an atheist responsible for leading someone to Hell at judgement. :eek:

[Mageth]

Jagged's post highlights what is wrong with Christianity

And Magus just had to add the exclamation point....

[Mageth]

So many lost people on here from the deconversion list. Would to hate to be an atheist responsible for leading someone to Hell at judgement.

I was a lurker here during my deconversion process. And it was as much, if not more so, Xian dogma like this "you're gonna get it in Hell!" threat as the Atheist responses that pushed me towards my deconversion.

So congratulations, Magus, post like yours are quite possibly contributing to the deconversion of lurkers right now! It sure serves to strengthen my conviction that Xianity is a load of crap.

[Debbie T]

Originally posted by Magus55
So many lost people on here from the deconversion list. Would to hate to be an atheist responsible for leading someone to Hell at judgement. :eek:

Magus be careful while you are here it may cause you to think. You might find your place among us. Then you too can let go of the fear and find a freedom away from your religion. To let go of all that fear and superstition and speak freely without fear of being cast into some pit is pretty awesome!

The fear plus being shunned makes the deconversion a hard process to go through, but once there it is like lifting the weight of your heavy religion off your shoulders and realize how much lighter life is. Religion casts a dark cloud over your personna. Problem is while you are in it, it is hard to see.

Just look how wilderness can't even speak honestly about what they are going through without repurcussions? That speaks volumes about the fear (not in Wilderness but in Christians). I am glad wilderness has a place to talk about it. However what does it say about Christianity?

I truly hope you find your way out and start feeling better without the fear. It really is a great place to be! Love- Deb

[wildernesse]

Originally posted by Magus55
So many lost people on here from the deconversion list. Would to hate to be an atheist responsible for leading someone to Hell at judgement. :eek:

I doubt that anyone here is responsible for leading someone to a place that they weren't ready to go. We're responsible for ourselves.

--tibac

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by Magus55
So many lost people on here from the deconversion list. Would to hate to be an atheist responsible for leading someone to Hell at judgement. :eek:

We're not responsible for diddly. You're the one failing to bring people to your christ by your presence here. Check your own hands for blood on Judgement Day (but don't be afraid...since Judgement Day is about as likely as flying pigs, I think you're safe.)

Edit: BTW, that was the actual opinion of the Southern Baptist evangelical church I was raised in: Christians, knowing what's "True", are responsible for every person they witness to that they fail to bring to Christ.

My church was more responsible for my deconversion than anything else I can think of.

[Demigawd]

Originally posted by Magus55
So many lost people on here from the deconversion list. Would to hate to be an atheist responsible for leading someone to Hell at judgement.

Would said atheist get a hotter lake of fire and/or eternity plus 20 years in Hell?

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
So many lost people on here from the deconversion list.

Add one more! Reading Don Morgan's lists of biblical inconsistencies, absurdities, etc. showed me just how illogical christianity was and led me to the SecWeb.

Would to hate to be an atheist

I'd hate you to be an atheist too, if this is how you represent christianity.

[Spaz]

Originally posted by Magus55
So many lost people on here from the deconversion list. Would to hate to be an atheist responsible for leading someone to Hell at judgement.

Haha, you always know how to make me laugh magus

I'd hate to be a christian responsible for leading someone to the islamic hell :eek:

[cpickett]

I was on SecWeb about a year ago, I think I got there through another site, but it linked to Robert G Ingersol's "Why I Am Agnostic". At the time I was jokingly part of Apatheitc Agnostics, but I found the article to be very intriguing, from there I tunred into a very strong Agnostic when I first came to this forum, I didn't really understand the Athiest position. After lurking for a while, and really learning about Athiesim I came to realize that it was really how I felt, and I haven 't looked back since.

So deconverted, not really, I was on the "slippery slope" to begin with...

[Calzaer]

Magus has got to be the most effective troll in history. He obviously follows the philosophy:

"Stay not overlong in one conflict, but start many."
-from some Lloyd Alexander book I read once

[Spaz]

Well, to actually be on topic, I was in a state of deconversion for quite a while. I'm not old now, I'm only 17, but when I was a child I was interested in dinosaurs and astronomy, and always questioned everything. I accepted christianity as it was my parents faith, just like anybody does. I have a book that I got from a christian bookstore about dinosaurs and it tried to fit them into the bible, which just raised more questions, I really should look at it now that I'm older, but anyway, it was always hard for me to accept religion over science. The scientific explanations always made more sense, and things like noah's ark and the tower of babel were far too nonsensical for me to take as true, they always seemed to me as primitive explanations for things that weren't that simple. My family quit going to church when I was in the 6th grade, not because we had lost our faith, my parents are still faithful, but I guess that's when I started seeking better answers. I kept that christian faith up until around the start of high school, when I became more of a deist type, eventually leading to now when reading web pages on atheism and the like, I came across this forum and lurked for a month or so, then joined it, and it helped me deconvert completely to atheism, along with all the other things I read. So this site helped, yes. </badly punctuated story>

[callmejay]

I'd pretty much made up my mind by the time I got here, but II helped me go from "not really believing in it" to really not believing in it. It's also been really helpful to read all of the stories about getting through difficulties with one's family as a result of deconversion.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Debbie T
Magus be careful while you are here it may cause you to think. You might find your place among us. Then you too can let go of the fear and find a freedom away from your religion. To let go of all that fear and superstition and speak freely without fear of being cast into some pit is pretty awesome!

The fear plus being shunned makes the deconversion a hard process to go through, but once there it is like lifting the weight of your heavy religion off your shoulders and realize how much lighter life is. Religion casts a dark cloud over your personna. Problem is while you are in it, it is hard to see.

Just look how wilderness can't even speak honestly about what they are going through without repurcussions? That speaks volumes about the fear (not in Wilderness but in Christians). I am glad wilderness has a place to talk about it. However what does it say about Christianity?

I truly hope you find your way out and start feeling better without the fear. It really is a great place to be! Love- Deb

Be careful of what? I can gaurantee you, i will never be an atheist, EVER. There isn't didly you can do to deconvert me.

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by Magus55
Be careful of what? I can gaurantee you, i will never be an atheist, EVER. There isn't didly you can do to deconvert me.

Never say never, hon. ;)

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Mageth
So many lost people on here from the deconversion list. Would to hate to be an atheist responsible for leading someone to Hell at judgement.

I was a lurker here during my deconversion process. And it was as much, if not more so, Xian dogma like this "you're gonna get it in Hell!" threat as the Atheist responses that pushed me towards my deconversion.

So congratulations, Magus, post like yours are quite possibly contributing to the deconversion of lurkers right now! It sure serves to strengthen my conviction that Xianity is a load of crap.

Now I'm not. Even any lurkers were to deconvert, its not because of me. They chose to believe atheistic lies, instead of God's word. Thats their fault, and atheists just push them in the wrong direction.

Yes, everyone is ultimately responsibile for themselves. But when you have constant hate, insulting and bombardment of Christianity and God on this board, by people who believe God isn't real, yet have absolutely no clue whatsoever whether He is or not, you do alot to lead to their deconversion.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Hedwig
Never say never, hon. ;) Oh trust me. I wouldn't be atheist for the mere reason that i wouldn't want to belong to a group of such, hateful, sarcastic, and sin loving people. I hate lying, hate cussing, don't believe in sex before marriage etc., and I was like that long before i became Christian. I would never want to be among atheists.

[Demigawd]

Originally posted by Magus55
Yes, everyone is ultimately responsibile for themselves. But when you have constant hate, insulting and bombardment of Christianity and God on this board, by people who believe God isn't real, yet have absolutely no clue whatsoever whether He is or not, you do alot to lead to their deconversion.

For the record, Magus55, I don't hate you nor do I insult you with malice. Consider my jabs to be good-natured ribbing. Your zeal for Christianity and following the bible on a fundamental basis reminds me of the way I was when I was a young teen, and up through my early college years. The more I read about many cultures and many religions at university as well as multicultural literature and film as a grad student made me into the agnostic that I've been for the past 15 years.

The arguments that I've read here on II have given me a strong atheistic sympathy, but at heart I'm still strongly agnostic. No one bit of literature, including the bible, contains the truth of our existence. The best you can do in life is deal with the verifiable facts, trust everyone but cut the cards yourself, and plan for the future.

The rest is merely philosophy and wishful thinking. :D

[Godless Dave]

Originally posted by Magus55
I wouldn't be atheist for the mere reason that i wouldn't want to belong to a group of such, hateful, sarcastic, and sin loving people. I hate lying, hate cussing, don't believe in sex before marriage etc., and I was like that long before i became Christian. I would never want to be among atheists.
If you were like that before you became a Christian, why would being an atheist make you do those things? And do you really think all atheists lie, cuss, and have sex before marriage?

I, for one, rarely lie. And I resent your implication that just because I'm an atheist I must be a liar.

You, on the other hand, told an untruth about the contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I don't know if you were lying, or merely repeating someone else's lie. We never got to find out because when you were called on it you refused to answer.

[Spaz]

Originally posted by Magus55
Oh trust me. I wouldn't be atheist for the mere reason that i wouldn't want to belong to a group of such, hateful, sarcastic, and sin loving people. I hate lying, hate cussing, don't believe in sex before marriage etc., and I was like that long before i became Christian. I would never want to be among atheists.

I hate lying too, that's a small part of the reason I became an atheist.

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by Magus55
Oh trust me. I wouldn't be atheist for the mere reason that i wouldn't want to belong to a group of such, hateful, sarcastic, and sin loving people. I hate lying, hate cussing, don't believe in sex before marriage etc., and I was like that long before i became Christian. I would never want to be among atheists.

That's a stereotypical image you have of atheists...not the truth. Have you bothered to wander around on the lower forums? We tend to cut up and have a good time. We're not the hateful monsters you try to type us as.

And you say "I would never want to be among atheists"...yet you are here posting on this message board. What sense does that make?

[Secular Pinoy]

Originally posted by cpickett
After lurking for a while, and really learning about AthiesimWow, you haven't learned enough. We should start with that spelling! :D ;)

[Viti]

Originally posted by Magus55
Oh trust me. I wouldn't be atheist for the mere reason that i wouldn't want to belong to a group of such, hateful, sarcastic, and sin loving people. I hate lying, hate cussing, don't believe in sex before marriage etc., and I was like that long before i became Christian. I would never want to be among atheists.

But you happily inform people you don't even know about their future trip to unending pain and fire...who's hateful?

And what does lying, cussing and premarital sex have to do with atheism?

[WWSD]

Originally posted by Magus55
Oh trust me. I wouldn't be atheist for the mere reason that i wouldn't want to belong to a group of such, hateful, sarcastic, and sin loving people. I hate lying, hate cussing, don't believe in sex before marriage etc., and I was like that long before i became Christian. I would never want to be among atheists.

You must know every atheist in the universe then to make such a sweeping generalization. I don't beleive you know anything about me at all, and, in fact, have no idea whether or not I lie, cuss, or have premarital relations etc.

In fact, you know nothing more about me than the text that I am writing here, thus it is impossible for you to make such generalizations and in fact, I would say that you are slandering me simply because I do not beleive in your god.

Who now is being hateful? I, for one, am not, I have been nothing but polite to you. Given your description of me, which is rather hate filled, I should probably not be polite to you, but I will continue to because I feel that it is the right thing to do.

[Calzaer]

Oh trust me.

That line may have worked on you, but the rest of us require evidence.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Hedwig
That's a stereotypical image you have of atheists...not the truth. Have you bothered to wander around on the lower forums? We tend to cut up and have a good time. We're not the hateful monsters you try to type us as.

And you say "I would never want to be among atheists"...yet you are here posting on this message board. What sense does that make? Thats exactly why I said that. Society doesn't have a problem with things like premarital sex, or cussing. And lying, while generally not liked - isn't really cared about much.

And yes i have been to the lower forums which is why i mentioned that. You have posts entitled sex escapades, describing all your fun premarital sexual encounters. Won't find that on any respectable Christian board. I find it appauling how people abuse sex and just look at it as a fun, lets do it whenever, stress reliever. Christians also cuss alot less than ( from what iv'e noticed) then athiests. And if they do cuss, they are working on not doing it cause its a sin. Atheists don't have that higher morality hanging over there head ( if it doesn't go against society, then its not a morality issue, since without God, all morality comes from societal standards).

And yes, i full admit those are a stereotype, but when you see so many people who constantly insult Christians on this board, plus lots of cussing, and then threads on sex escapades, its not hard to tell where that stereotype came from.

And its not like you all don't stereotype Christians. You think we are delusional, less intelligent, simpletons with no concept of reality.

And Hedwig, some of you can be nice yes. But iv'e come across tons of rude, hateful, sarcastic people on this board. More than any other religion/philosphy board iv'e been too .

[Magus55]

Originally posted by LadyShea
But you happily inform people you don't even know about their future trip to unending pain and fire...who's hateful?

And what does lying, cussing and premarital sex have to do with atheism?

I inform you of it to keep you out of it. If i was really hateful, I would tell you not to believe in Jesus so you would go to hell. But i don't want anyone to go, even strangers iv'e never met - so i'm trying to get them to find Jesus to avoid it ( yes, i'm fully aware thats basically a lost cause now).

***

Atheists base their morals on society. If its not deemed wrong in society, it will be more prevelant ( society doesn't care about cussing or premarital sex, in fact its "the thing to do").
Those who follow a God, have a higher moral standard that keeps them from doing them, and makes it less appealing. I find how much sex is abused in society to be completely disgusting. Its like guys goal to score as much as they can and dump the girl. Yet society as a whole doesn't find premarital sex much of a big deal. They just say protect yourself and have fun...

[hezekiah jones]

Originally posted by Magus55
I wouldn't be atheist for the mere reason that i wouldn't want to belong to a group of such, hateful, sarcastic, and sin loving people.

We tolerate you.
That practically qualifies us for fucking sainthood.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
And yes i have been to the lower forums which is why i mentioned that. You have posts entitled sex escapades, describing all your fun premarital sexual encounters.

Made you jealous, did it? :D

But iv'e come across tons of rude, hateful, sarcastic people on this board.

Perhaps you should consider if you've acted in such a way as to bring out these characteristics in people. Observe, for example, the way people react to theists such as Helen and seebs.

Plus, anyone who calls his opponents terms such as "arse" in a debate probably doesn't have a lot of ground to stand on when it comes to rudeness. I believe Jesus had something to say about the plank in thine own eye.

[Demigawd]

Originally posted by Magus55
And its not like you all don't stereotype Christians. You think we are delusional, less intelligent, simpletons with no concept of reality.

And Hedwig, some of you can be nice yes. But iv'e come across tons of rude, hateful, sarcastic people on this board. More than any other religion/philosphy board iv'e been too .

Again, for the record, I don't consider you "delusional, less intelligent", or a simpleton. My only concern for you is that you're taken in by magical thinking. Gods, miracles, and arcane texts are concepts of magical thinking. Nothing more.

Hope also has alot to do with it. Hope that there's someone or something, preferably an intellect infinitely beyond humanity, in control of this universe. And this entity actually cares about us humans. My experience has taught me that the only entities that care about humans are other humans.

These other humans are precious, indeed.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
I inform you of it to keep you out of it.

But then you behave in such a way as to make us want to spend eternity anywhere but in your presence. Why the mixed messages?

But i don't want anyone to go, even strangers iv'e never met - so i'm trying to get them to find Jesus to avoid it ( yes, i'm fully aware thats basically a lost cause now).

If it's basically a lost cause, shouldn't you be taking Jesus's advice, shaking the dust off your cybersandals, and moving on? Or do you really enjoy discussions with atheists, agnostics and other unbelievers?

Atheists base their morals on society. If its not deemed wrong in society, it will be more prevelant

Is believing in god deemed wrong by society? If it is deemed right, why do atheists not believe in god?

Those who follow a God, have a higher moral standard that keeps them from doing them, and makes it less appealing.

What was the higher moral standard the Israelites followed when they slaughtered boy babies and old people but took virgins for themselves?

I find how much sex is abused in society to be completely disgusting.

I completely agree - sex should be up to the individual, as opposed to being controlled by misogynistic religions.

Its like guys goal to score as much as they can and dump the girl.

Does this apply to every guy in the world, just the non-Christian ones, or just you?

[Demigawd]

Originally posted by Magus55
Atheists base their morals on society.

That's not entirely true. This agnostic bases his morality on the Golden Rule. Nobody is perfect. And a divine savior of various flavors are concepts shared by practicly all socieities. There is evil in this world, yes, but there is good as well. And I've met some truly good people who weren't religious in my lifetime.

Back to the Golden Rule, I treat everyone I meet as I would want to be treated myself. Some people have taken advantage of me; a few have proven trustworthy. And those few come in all shapes and sizes and religions.

/em wanders if Magus55 considers my honesty as deception from an unbeliever.

[Philosoft]

Originally posted by Magus55
Those who follow a God, have a higher moral standard that keeps them from doing them, and makes it less appealing.
That right? You might want to check out prison demographics some time.
I find how much sex is abused in society to be completely disgusting. Its like guys goal to score as much as they can and dump the girl.
Presumably, none of these fellows believe in God?
Yet society as a whole doesn't find premarital sex much of a big deal. They just say protect yourself and have fun...
You just told us God-believers have "a higher moral standard." Shouldn't they be "above" such behavior? Atheists are not a terribly large percentage of the US population (probably 8-10%), and as a whole, we're pretty politically impotent. Why should societal values reflect any hedonistic or decadent morals we are alleged to possess?

[WWSD]

Originally posted by Demigawd
That's not entirely true. This agnostic bases his morality on the Golden Rule. Nobody is perfect.

That is the basic philosophy I have tried to adopt over the years since I became an atheist. It works very well, more or less.


/em wanders if Magus55 considers my honesty as deception from an unbeliever.

Magus seems to ignore the more polite posters who reply to him. It almost seems that he wants to believe his slander, and therefore simply ignore those who are more polite while feeding off of those who are fed up with him.

Perhaps this is because he believes that we are wolves in sheep's clothing, polite but willing to do the work of his satan. Are we, in his eyes, the most insidious of all infidels?

[7thangel]

I have deconverted some of the atheists, I think. Some keep their theist's concepts against me. ;)

[Magus55]

Originally posted by hezekiah jones
Originally posted by Magus55
I wouldn't be atheist for the mere reason that i wouldn't want to belong to a group of such, hateful, sarcastic, and sin loving people.

We tolerate you.
That practically qualifies us for fucking sainthood.

Case in point. You qualify as one of the hateful, sarcastic, obnoxious athiests by which i stereotype.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Demigawd
That's not entirely true. This agnostic bases his morality on the Golden Rule. Nobody is perfect. And a divine savior of various flavors are concepts shared by practicly all socieities. There is evil in this world, yes, but there is good as well. And I've met some truly good people who weren't religious in my lifetime.

Back to the Golden Rule, I treat everyone I meet as I would want to be treated myself. Some people have taken advantage of me; a few have proven trustworthy. And those few come in all shapes and sizes and religions.

/em wanders if Magus55 considers my honesty as deception from an unbeliever.

And where did the Golden rule come from? Either God ( since it was first introduced in the Bible), or society ( in which case what i said is entirely true).

Morality either comes from God or society. It can't be ingrained, because since we supposedly evolved from apes and bacteria - who don't posses morality - its not genetic or evolutionary.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
Case in point. You qualify as one of the hateful, sarcastic, obnoxious athiests by which i stereotype.

Keep that Christian love coming, Magus.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
Originally posted by Magus55
Case in point. You qualify as one of the hateful, sarcastic, obnoxious athiests by which i stereotype.

Keep that Christian love coming, Magus. If someone insults me like that i'm gonna defend myself. I don't put up with insults.

[hezekiah jones]

Originally posted by Magus55
You qualify as one of the hateful, sarcastic, obnoxious athiests by which i stereotype.

rofl - why, thank you. Flatterer.
*flutters eyelashes*

[hezekiah jones]

Originally posted by Magus55
"... the Golden rule ... first introduced in the Bible ..."

BZZZZT!!!

[Magus55]

Originally posted by hezekiah jones
Originally posted by Magus55
You qualify as one of the hateful, sarcastic, obnoxious athiests by which i stereotype.

rofl - why, thank you. Flatterer.
*flutters eyelashes*

Np, glad to flatter you.

[lpetrich]

Magus55's opinions are rather off-the-wall.

Cussing a sin? That opinion brings to mind the excrement of the male bovine.

And what's wrong for sex just for the heck of it?

I'm not talking about "hump her and dump her", simply sex as a shared activity.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
If someone insults me like that i'm gonna defend myself.

Wasn't it Jesus who said, "If someone hits you on one cheek, turn the other cheek"? Why don't you follow what your own God said?

I don't put up with insults.

No, you throw out a few choice ones of your own, thereby showing massive hypocrisy and convincing people that

1. christianity isn't all it's cracked up to be
2. you're not a nice person
3. eternity with you would therefore be tedious, so it's best to spend the afterlife away from you. Though at this point I'm no longer sure if you're going Up or Down.

By the way, Magus, I'm so glad you changed your mind about what you said earlier (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24270&perpage=25&pagenumber=4) :

I'm just gonna start ignoring her since all she wants to do is irritate Christians and absolutely doesn't care about what we say.

So tell me, when did you realize that you were wrong to make such an intimate psychological assessment? :)

[Magus55]

Originally posted by lpetrich
Magus55's opinions are rather off-the-wall.

Cussing a sin? That opinion brings to mind the excrement of the male bovine.

And what's wrong for sex just for the heck of it?

I'm not talking about "hump her and dump her", simply sex as a shared activity.

Because its a big downfall of society. If people weren't so obsessed with sex. STD's, AIDS, abortion, and unwanted prenancies wouldn't be so prevelant. 40 million babies have been killed because stupid people who don't take responsibility don't feel like dealing with them. And you criticize God for killing children in the flood? Humans don't need God to destroy them, we do it on our own.

[WWSD]

Originally posted by Magus55
And where did the Golden rule come from? Either God ( since it was first introduced in the Bible), or society ( in which case what i said is entirely true).

Morality either comes from God or society. It can't be ingrained, because since we supposedly evolved from apes and bacteria - who don't posses morality - its not genetic or evolutionary.

There are complex social interactions that take place amongst members of our nearest relatives, the apes. It seems reasonable that they have thier own moral code, and they certainly have no god to speak of.

I would say that morals are a product of both evolved mechanisms and social conditioning.

But let's not get side tracked by evolution here. If you want to discuss it, please start a thread about it in E/C.

[hezekiah jones]

By the way, Mr. Exemplary True Christian™, I'm quite sure that directly calling another poster "hateful, sarcastic, [and] obnoxious" is against the rules here.

Not that I personally care.

[Flynn McKerrow]

Originally posted by Magus55
Because its a big downfall of society. If people weren't so obsessed with sex. STD's, AIDS, abortion, and unwanted prenancies wouldn't be so prevelant. 40 million babies have been killed because stupid people who don't take responsibility don't feel like dealing with them. And you're saying that Christians have never been involved in any of these things?

Have you seen the rates of STDs, AIDS, abortion, and unwanted pregnancies from countries that have a smaller percentage of Christians than the US?

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Flynn McKerrow
And you're saying that Christians have never been involved in any of these things?

Have you seen the rates of STDs, AIDS, abortion, and unwanted pregnancies from countries that have a smaller percentage of Christians than the US? No i'm not saying Christians have never done it, but saved Christians are against it and if they fall, they seek forgiveness for it. Where as atheists just say slaughter the baby, since hes not really living yet, who cares ( just go read the abortion thread on the lower forums - abortion supported almost up to birth ). Athiests also support homosexuality, which is the biggest cause of AIDS.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
40 million babies have been killed because stupid people who don't take responsibility don't feel like dealing with them.

How many babies were killed by the Israelites as they invaded Canaan? How many babies were killed by God during the exodus?

And you criticize God for killing children in the flood?

For the record, two wrongs don't make a right. Abortion doesn't mean that it's now OK for God to drown children.

Humans don't need God to destroy them, we do it on our own.

Humans don't need God to fulfil them, we do it on our own.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by hezekiah jones
By the way, Mr. Exemplary True Christian™, I'm quite sure that directly calling another poster "hateful, sarcastic, [and] obnoxious" is against the rules here.

Not that I personally care. And I'm sure you colorful choice of insults and cusses against me are in line with the rules? You are hateful towards me, or you wouldn't have said that.

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
Where as atheists just say slaughter the baby, since hes not really living yet, who cares

I don't think anyone has said that a zygote, embryo or fetus is not living, but I'd be happy to hear you support this statement with actual quotes from atheists.

Moreover, could you respond to my question about why you do not follow Jesus's command to "turn the other cheek"? Or is this impossible for you to answer?

Athiests also support homosexuality, which is the biggest cause of AIDS.

Get your facts straight - homosexuality is not a cause of AIDS. If eighteen perfectly healthy men all have sex with each other simultaneously, HIV is not going to spring into existence from that, much as fundamentalists might want it to.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by QueenofSwords


For the record, two wrongs don't make a right. Abortion doesn't mean that it's now OK for God to drown children.

God has the right to take life, you don't.

Humans don't need God to fulfil them, we do it on our own. [/B] Nope, only atheists do it on their own ( or so they think) 3-4 billion people rely on God to fulfill them.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Magus, you're beliefs are so well-reasoned and obviously based on a piercing understanding of current society.

So much for the lie. Wanna fuck now and get married later? :D :p

Oh, shit, I just cussed, too.

It never ceases to amaze me that cult members such as yourself always point to society's problems and shout from the mountaintop about how it demonstrates a need for more cult mentality, conveniently sidestepping the fact that the overwhelming majority making up that "hedonistic" society are themselves cult members and that this country has been controlled by cult members since its inception (not to mention the majority of the entirety of human civilization since its inception).

As Philosoft pointed out, upwards of ninety percent of this country's society are cult members of one faction or another (primarily members of your cult) and yet we constantly get blamed for your own failings. :rolleyes:

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. And since none of us believe in such a childishly simplistic notion, make sure you throw those stones really hard at each other (the way you've been doing it for thousands of years) and kill each other off so that all of us non-simpletons can actually grow beyond the fifth grade, yes?

(just thought I'd provide you a shining example to point to as you have provided us with one :D That was, after all, the whole reason you sidetracked this thread, right?)

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
And I'm sure you colorful choice of insults and cusses against me are in line with the rules?

Would these insults be more or less colorful than the one you have used - "arse"?

Also, do you consider yourself to be following Jesus's command when you break the rules by insulting people? You know, the command to "turn the other cheek"? Jesus also said, "behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye therefore as wise as serpents and harmless as doves" (Matthew 10:16). Do you think you are being as harmless as a dove, Magus?

[WWSD]

Originally posted by Magus55
Athiests also support homosexuality, which is the biggest cause of AIDS.

How do homosexuals "casue" AIDS? Or are you referring to the spread of the virus?

The biggest "cause" of AIDS is HIV. And yes, male homosexuals are most at risk for infection. However, lesbians are in the lowest risk catagory for HIV infections.

Perhaps now you will continue to slander anyone who calls themselves an atheist by claiming that we all support pedophilia?

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by Magus55
God has the right to take life

Why? Provide justification for this assertion. And I notice that despite your figure of 40 million babies pulled out of the air, you have nothing to say about how many babies the Israelites slaughtered in the Old Testament. Maybe those babies don't count since they were in non-Israelite wombs?

Nope, only atheists do it on their own ( or so they think) 3-4 billion people rely on God to fulfill them.

And they end up like you, do they? :D

Now, please stop evading the question I have asked. Do you think that you are following Jesus's command to "turn the other cheek"?

[Magus55]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by QueenofSwords

I don't think anyone has said that a zygote, embryo or fetus is not living, but I'd be happy to hear you support this statement with actual quotes from atheists. Then you are taking a life, and have no right whatsoever to ridicule God, the creator of all life for doing it. And God does it for non selfish reasons, where as humans only do it for themselves ( too expensive, too much responsibility - i only wanted to have sex, not have a baby - get rid of it).

Moreover, could you respond to my question about why you do not follow Jesus's command to "turn the other cheek"? Or is this impossible for you to answer? I'm not perfect, Jesus was. Automatic response to defend myself against insults.


Get your facts straight - homosexuality is not a cause of AIDS. If eighteen perfectly healthy men all have sex with each other simultaneously, HIV is not going to spring into existence from that, much as fundamentalists might want it to.

My facts are quite straight. Homosexuality is the biggest cause for the spread of AIDS, especially among African Americans.

[WWSD]

Originally posted by Magus55
[QUOTE]
My facts are quite straight. Homosexuality is the biggest cause for the spread of AIDS, especially among African Americans.

You seem to have ignored my post altogether once again. Which proves the point to me that you aren't here to discuss anything, but only to slander other people and try to justify your own hatred of them.

anycase:
Where does your reasoning leave you when you learn that lesbians are in the lowest risk group for HIV infection?

[Koyaanisqatsi]

"non selfish?" :eek:

Your god will punish you for all eternity for not worshipping him. Talk about selfish!

[hezekiah jones]

Originally posted by Magus55
And I'm sure you colorful choice of insults and cusses against me are in line with the rules? You are hateful towards me, or you wouldn't have said that.

My dear Magus. You said:

"I wouldn't be atheist for the mere reason that i wouldn't want to belong to a group of such, hateful, sarcastic, and sin loving people."

I am an atheist. I belong to that "group." My response was truthful: you are tolerated here. To the best of my knowledge, you have not been edited, deleted, banned, warned, etc. I added, in light of the foregoing, that we were "practically fucking saints" to do so. That was a joke, Magus, and it was not directed at you. I said "we" were saints. Capiche?

Then you reiterated your blanket slur, this time specifically directed at me. And believe me I don't care enough to be "hateful" towards you. In fact, the instrument has not yet been invented with which to measure my indifference.

However, I would like to keep this straight. If you have some support that any of these alleged "colorful insults and cusses against you" emanated from yours truly, please go dig it up and PM me.

[mike_decock]

Originally posted by Magus55
Now I'm not. Even any lurkers were to deconvert, its not because of me. They chose to believe atheistic lies, instead of God's word. Thats their fault, and atheists just push them in the wrong direction.

For me, the greatest push in the direction of atheism was my dislike of the hateful, self-righteous, "You're Gonna Burn In Hell" attitude of the fundamentalist Christians I grew up with.

The kind, friendly and rational atheists on sites like this revealed to me that atheists aren't the demon-worshipping, baby-killing, rapist murderers that the church had made them out to be.

-Mike...

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
I don't think anyone has said that a zygote, embryo or fetus is not living, but I'd be happy to hear you support this statement with actual quotes from atheists.

Since you provided no quotes, Magus, I am going to repost this.

Then you are taking a life,

When was I taking a life? Please provide evidence to back up this bizarre assertion.

and have no right whatsoever to ridicule God, the creator of all life for doing it.

The big difference is that I don't support genocide. Do you understand the difference between killing a zygote and killing billions of people?

And God does it for non selfish reasons,

Aactually, God did it for stupid reasons. It was to rid the world of evil that he drowned children - look at the world now, as fundamentalists say.

where as humans only do it for themselves ( too expensive, too much responsibility - i only wanted to have sex, not have a baby - get rid of it).

I only wanted not to be reminded of my rape.
I only wanted not to die.
I only wanted to be healthy.
I only wanted to have a child when I could support and take care of it.
I only wanted to have a healthy child.
I only wanted my already-born children to continue having a mother.

You want I should go on?

I'm not perfect, Jesus was.

I'm just curious - if you killed an enemy of yours, and people said, "Why would you, as a Christian, do this when Jesus said to love your enemies" would your reply be, "I'm not perfect, Jesus was"?

Moreover, Matthew 5:48 says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." So I'm not sure how you justify this lack of perfection.

Automatic response to defend myself against insults.

Do you think that this "automatic response" shows God's love?

Does God approve of Christians giving in to their "automatic responses", or does He prefer that they consider what the bible says? If a Christian's automatic response to a beautiful man is to have sex with him, should the Christian ignore what the bible says about homosexuality because Jesus might be perfect, but the Christian sure isn't?

My facts are quite straight. Homosexuality is the biggest cause for the spread of AIDS

Do you see now that there is a difference between the cause of AIDS and the spread of AIDS?

Moreover, heterosexual sex is the biggest cause for the spread of AIDS in other parts of the world. So maybe God is trying to subtly indicate to you that heterosexual sex is wrong.

[Bree]

Gentle reminder: this is a thread about deconversion. If you'd like to take this discussion elsewhere (and I'd love to see it continued, especially after QoS' involvement) please do so post-haste.

[Viti]

Magus, you have lied on this thread...I thought you hated lying?

1. The Golden Rule did not originate with the Bible

2. Homosexuality is not the the cause of AIDS at all, a virus is. While true that gay men are at a high risk for infection in the US, lesbians are at the lowest risk, and elsewhere in the world (the most AIDS cases are in Africa) it is mostly spread heterosexually. The gay male community is simply the first place it showed up here.

3. Over 80% of Americans are CHRISTIAN, approximately 90% of lawmakers and politicians are CHRISTIAN, over 80% of prison inmates (murderers child abusers rapists) are CHRISTIAN...YOU are the majority so if there are problems the majority needs to take responsibility for them not blame the less than 15% of us who are non-religious.


4. Atheists have the lowest divorce rate, are underrepresented in prisons, are not represented at all in government for the most part...how can you blame all of society's ills on us?

[winstonjen]

Originally posted by LadyShea
4. Atheists have the lowest divorce rate, are underrepresented in prisons, are not represented at all in government for the most part...how can you blame all of society's ills on us?

They've all gotta have a scapegoat. ;)

As for deconversion, I agree that bigoted, threatening afterlife blackmail statements can turn a lot of people off religion of any sort.

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Originally posted by Magus55
I hate lying,

OMFG LOL!!!!! Seriously Magus you just almost had me in tears. Thanks for the laughs, man.

On a side note, your comments are an interesting insight into Christian sexual repression. It appears that in your mind, fun sex = premarital sex. Any kind of sex that could be considered an "escapade" surely would not happen inside the glorious realm of holy matrimony, where all sex must be missionary position and 10 minutes long. Fun sex just isn't allowed for married people of Gawd, though for what reason I have no idea. It's not "pre-marital" sex that you don't like the idea of, it's just enjoyable sex in general.

LadyShea- don't be ridiculous. We all know that lesbians don't count as gays! They're, like, sexy and stuff.

Mods- I'd suggest a "split thread" for the Predictable Magus Derailing to move to a new thread.

-B

[Godless Dave]

Originally posted by Magus55
And where did the Golden rule come from? Either God ( since it was first introduced in the Bible),
LIE

I thought you said it was a sin to tell lies, Magus?

[Rhea]

40 million babies have been killed because stupid people who don't take responsibility don't feel like dealing with them. And you criticize God for killing children in the flood? Humans don't need God to destroy them, we do it on our own.

Magus. Magus. Get some edumacation about this.

God is the most prolific abortionist of all time

You need to know that. It's a pretty important FACT.


Over 1 out of every 3 - some say 1 out of 2 - pregnancies ends in miscarriage. That is, spontaneous abortion. 30%-50%. Surgical abortion doesn't even wiggle the needle against that. THIRTY PERCENT of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion. GOD'S ABORTION.

If you can explain to us all how letting a (live) egg get fertilized with a (live) sperm and becoming a zygote only to be killed BY GOD before maturity is not selfish on the part of the god or is somehow the fault of humans, I am ALL EARS.

In the meantime, remember what you have learned today. All of the surgical or chemical abortions ever induced by mankind don't even wiggle the needle on the cosmic abortion meter.

[Shake]

Originally posted by Magus55
So many lost people on here from the deconversion list. Would to hate to be an atheist responsible for leading someone to Hell at judgement. :eek: So funny that you think an atheist would be concerned about going someplace they don't believe in, or potentially sending others there as well. We say what we say here. If that causes someone to think for themselves and deconvert, well great. If they think, but don't deconvert and just start asking more questions and doing more reading, then that's fine, too. We just want people to open their minds and think for themselves.

[Shake]

Originally posted by Magus55
Now I'm not. Even any lurkers were to deconvert, its not because of me. They chose to believe atheistic lies, instead of God's word. Thats their fault, and atheists just push them in the wrong direction."Atheistic lies?" Instead of God's lies, you mean ... or actually, the people-who-invented-God's lies!

Magus, instead of launching into the attack that I'd love to write, I'm going to echo Bree's subtle reminder that this is a thread about deconversion. This is something you have obviously not done, and I was only looking to hear from those who had. So, I must politely request that you take this to another thread.

Thank you,
Shake

PS. Wow! I can't believe how this thread has exploded since I bumped it back into view!

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by Magus55

And yes, i full admit those are a stereotype, but when you see so many people who constantly insult Christians on this board, plus lots of cussing, and then threads on sex escapades, its not hard to tell where that stereotype came from.

As much as I might want to, I try to avoid openly insulting people (especially in the upper forums, where it is frowned upon by the moderators.)

I won't get into the morality of swearing with you, but apart from the whole "taking the Lord's name in vain" thing, I don't see why you would have a problem with it. They're just words.

And its not like you all don't stereotype Christians. You think we are delusional, less intelligent, simpletons with no concept of reality.

I don't know if you are aware of this, but many people on this board are married to theists or grew up in theist households. I'm one of those people and my mother is still a Christian. I certainly don't see her as being delusional, less intelligent, or a simpleton with no concept of reality. My mother is fantastic.

And Hedwig, some of you can be nice yes. But iv'e come across tons of rude, hateful, sarcastic people on this board. More than any other religion/philosphy board iv'e been too .

Now, don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you have awfully thin skin. Some of the most injurious and hateful things I was ever told were from Christians (for example: because my family, being part Creek Indian, had infused some of their tribal beliefs with their converted faith of Christianity, my youth minister was convinced they were all roasting on a spit in hell...never mind that many of these same people had been educators, ministers, and missionaries.) But I got over it and moved on with my life.

But what you have to realize is that sarcasm doesn't equal being cruel. Many people are sarcastic with each other on here. It's a form of joking around. Being serious all the time is no fun. Aren't you ever around your relatives and throw out some kind of sarcastic comment? That's how my family tends to communicate with each other. You'd probably be mortified by how we act (and most of my family is Christian) because that's how we choose to show affection. Sarcasm isn't always cruel. Sometimes it's just for fun.

But as far as openly being rude and hateful goes, did you bother to check out www.theologyonline.com ? I posted it for you a few pages back, if memory serves. Did you check it out? It is a born again, bought in blood-type Christian site that I felt compelled to leave because all they ever did was insult me and never bothered to show compassion or kindness to me or any other unbeliever (heck, they would turn on each other in an instant.) I was stressing out about not being able to find a job at one point and all I received after posting as much was a string of insults about how maybe if they were to throw some dollar bills at me it might get me to spend some more time on their site debating them (I was honest about being an exotic dancer when I first entered college to pay for my college expenses...how's that for the "compassion of Christians"?) Spend an afternoon on that message board and the get back to me on how "hateful and rude" Internet Infidels is.

[Mageth]

And its not like you all don't stereotype Christians. You think we are delusional, less intelligent, simpletons with no concept of reality.

Interesting...accusing us of "all" stereotyping christians and telling us what we think. Isn't that stereotyping?

I'll echo Hedwig's thoughts on this. I come from a large family. My grandparents, parents, four of my five siblings, their spouses, most of their children (there are 16 total), most if not all of my many uncles and aunts, most of my cousins, my wife, and her parents and family are all Christians. I'm talking the born-again, protestant, believing in hell flavor you seem to be. Add to that that I was one until about three years ago.

So, in addition to the fact that you can't and don't know anything I think, it's simply not true that we all stereotype xians the way you say we do. For I do not think those things about my family (nor about most of the many many xians I've known).

And congratulations are in order again, Magus! Since your first gloating, threatening you're goin' to hell post that I responded to on this thread, your continued ranting has no doubt heavily influenced even more lurkers away from xianity! Keep it up and maybe we'll give you a trophy or something in appreciation.

[Debbie T]

Originally posted by Magus55
Be careful of what? I can gaurantee you, i will never be an atheist, EVER. There isn't didly you can do to deconvert me.

I don't want to deconvert you only you can do that. I would however like to see you and a few others not be so aggravated as you appear to be in most of your posts. You know what they say about never say never. Take care.

[cpickett]

Originally posted by Secular Pinoy
Wow, you haven't learned enough. We should start with that spelling! :D ;)

LOL, not spelling as much as sucky ass typist ;).

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by K
I became an atheist on my own only telling my wife. She became an agnostic with slight deist/pantheist leanings at about the same time. I stumbled onto II while looking to see if it was possible to lessen the isolation I felt after hearing about the backlash against the Newdow decision. I was amazed to find that many of the people here were using the same lines of reasoning I went through in my deconversion. If there was ever a chance that my atheism wouldn't stick, it was completely gone.

Can you read my post?

[unregistered_user_1]

Originally posted by Magus55
Oh trust me. I wouldn't be atheist for the mere reason that i wouldn't want to belong to a group of such, hateful, sarcastic, and sin loving people. I hate lying, hate cussing, don't believe in sex before marriage etc., and I was like that long before i became Christian. I would never want to be among atheists. And I don't care for arrogant, self-righteous, holier-than-thou religious bigots who are so full of their own superiority that they automatically look down on and insult everyone else who dares have religious views different than their own.

I saw one of your posts on Rapture Ready. You complain about the treatment you get here?! When you're saying stuff like what you just did, is it any bloody wonder that people get ticked off at you? :boohoo: :boohoo:

Ever think that the reason people don't just drop everything and take up your beliefs is because you're acting like such an arrogant ass?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can we say that here? Well, if not, and the word gets taken out, the message will still get across.

[Shake]

Originally posted by WWSD
How do homosexuals "casue" AIDS? Or are you referring to the spread of the virus?

The biggest "cause" of AIDS is HIV. And yes, male homosexuals are most at risk for infection. However, lesbians are in the lowest risk catagory for HIV infections. Although, in places like Africa, AIDS is running rampant, and it's more than just homosexuals that are spreading it. Also, the Catholic Church could be said to be largely to blame for it's stand against birth control, of which specifically condoms can be used against the spread of disease. Birth control would also reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.

[Kilted Canuck]

I'd never given it much thought, but since I was three I'd always replied 'I don't have a religion'. I've never been a Xian, but after my grandfather passed away (I was around 10) I really wanted to believe in a gawd. I eventually gave it up after reading world history, biology, and histories of the religions (I was around 13). After I was old enough to use the internet, I found sites such as this, JREF, csicop, and other skeptic and free thinker sites. Up to a month or so ago, I considered myself a 'Scientific Nontheist' (aka Agnostic). Now, I'm almost totally sure about the lack of a supreme being, and am confident enough to finally call myself an Atheist.

[Justin70]

Originally posted by unregistered_user_1
And I don't care for arrogant, self-righteous, holier-than-thou religious bigots who are so full of their own superiority that they automatically look down on and insult everyone else who dares have religious views different than their own.

I saw one of your posts on Rapture Ready. You complain about the treatment you get here?! When you're saying stuff like what you just did, is it any bloody wonder that people get ticked off at you? :boohoo: :boohoo:

Ever think that the reason people don't just drop everything and take up your beliefs is because you're acting like such an arrogant ass?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can we say that here? Well, if not, and the word gets taken out, the message will still get across.

Touche'! In all my time as a Roman Catholic and later as a Fundamentalist Baptist I NEVER came across someone as rude and as insulting as Magus.

I don't think he realizes that his 'witnessing' that he's doing here is casting a very NEGATIVE light on Christianity in large. I would have a tremendous amount of respect for him if he'd simply say things like "I don't know" or "I apologize, that was uncalled for" and to answer questions posed to him instead of dodging everything.

I've read just about everything he's posted. My guess he's either a late teens or early 20s kid that JUST got converted and has a lot of anger built up and low self esteem.

And a little note, Magus: If you think we're all so horrible and believe such crazy things then why post? Why incite people the way you do? Go back to your Christian forums and post there.

<shrug> Just a thought. =)

[AJ113]

To return to the subject of the OP, I am the article in question. I came to II with my crusading sword in my hand, ready to convert all those sill unbelievers in one fell swoop.

I had my 40th birthday last year and after 40 years of being a fully fledged card-carrying RC, I finally admitted to myself that it is all bollocks and crossed over to the other side.

[Slavik91]

My de-conversion is brought to you by the generous help of people like Magus.

[christ-on-a-stick]

Originally posted by AJ113
To return to the subject of the OP, I am the article in question. I came to II with my crusading sword in my hand, ready to convert all those sill unbelievers in one fell swoop.

I had my 40th birthday last year and after 40 years of being a fully fledged card-carrying RC, I finally admitted to myself that it is all bollocks and crossed over to the other side. Congratulations, AJ113. Here's to 40+ more years for ya, superstition-free!!! http://e4u.consoleradar.com/happy/1055.gif

[Badfish]

Originally posted by Shake
Probably not. But I was just wondering how much effect we of the II Forums have had on visitors and even regulars that have been here for a while. Were you someone who was maybe on the fence, but after visiting here for a while, decided to drop religion? I'd say I was simply a weak atheist when I started lurking here, but after a while, I became stronger in my atheism due to all the wonderful support and education that is available here. So, generally, how has the II changed you?

If anything it has strengthened my faith in Christ, thank you IIDB!! :notworthy

[AJ113]

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
Congratulations, AJ113. Here's to 40+ more years for ya, superstition-free!!! http://e4u.consoleradar.com/happy/1055.gif

Thank you kind sir.

I know this may sound wacky, but one of the advantages is that it is far easier to win religeous arguments now!

That may sound a bit trite, but the implication (to me, anyway) is that I have chosen the right path because it all actually makes sense.

[AJ113]

Originally posted by Badfish
If anything it has strengthened my faith in Christ, thank you IIDB!! :notworthy

Yup, that's exactly the sort of thing I used to post.

[Badfish]

Originally posted by AJ113
Yup, that's exactly the sort of thing I used to post.

Really? What happened?

[christ-on-a-stick]

That may sound a bit trite, but the implication (to me, anyway) is that I have chosen the right path because it all actually makes sense. Indeed... think of all the extra energy you will have not having to dance around, do gymnastics and run in circles every time you debate religion! ;)

[Philosoft]

Originally posted by Badfish
If anything it has strengthened my faith in Christ, thank you IIDB!!
Hmm. This is going to sound (read?) somewhat blunt, but try to bear with me. Do you think your faith has been strengthened because that's really the only thing that is fundamentally unassailable by the atheist philosophy and methodological naturalism so common on this board? In other words, I have seen nearly every logical or evidential argument in favor of a supreme creator fairly decimated. The only thing untouchable is faith, whatever it may be.

[Silly metaphor alert]
Is it possible that, as your supernatual eggs are one-by-one pushed out of the baskets of science and philosophy, you are simply moving them into the "faith" basket?

[AJ113]

Originally posted by Badfish
Really? What happened?

I was ignored. Exactly the opposite effect that I was trying to achieve.

A bit like the effect your comment had, really.

Except that I replied to it.

Just shows that you don't have to be a christian to be a thoroughly decent chap, eh?

[AJ113]

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
Indeed... think of all the extra energy you will have not having to dance around, do gymnastics and run in circles every time you debate religion! ;)

Yup, for Lent I gave up committing logical fallacies.

[Badfish]

Originally posted by Philosoft
Hmm. This is going to sound (read?) somewhat blunt, but try to bear with me. Do you think your faith has been strengthened because that's really the only thing that is fundamentally unassailable by the atheist philosophy and methodological naturalism so common on this board? In other words, I have seen nearly every logical or evidential argument in favor of a supreme creator fairly decimated. The only thing untouchable is faith, whatever it may be.

[Silly metaphor alert]
Is it possible that, as your supernatual eggs are one-by-one pushed out of the baskets of science and philosophy, you are simply moving them into the "faith" basket?

Nope, science hasn't decimated anything, and it hasn't ruled out first cause via creation. :)

[Badfish]

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
Indeed... think of all the extra energy you will have not having to dance around, do gymnastics and run in circles every time you debate religion! ;)

Christ almighty on a popsicle stick! geez..

I mean christ-on-a-stick, I see some fair amount of dancing from the atheist camp, you debate just as vehemently as a theist, what's this all about?

[Badfish]

Originally posted by AJ113
Yup, for Lent I gave up committing logical fallacies.

You mean you use a religious fallacy as a base for giving something up? :confused:

[Badfish]

Originally posted by AJ113
I was ignored. Exactly the opposite effect that I was trying to achieve.

A bit like the effect your comment had, really.

Except that I replied to it.

Just shows that you don't have to be a christian to be a thoroughly decent chap, eh?

Ignored by who? Letting the shortcomings of man decide your eternal fate is dangerous and unwarranted. Jesus can be and is a personal relationship.

No you don't have to be a Christian to be a decent chap. :)

[christ-on-a-stick]

I mean christ-on-a-stick, I see some fair amount of dancing from the atheist camp, you debate just as vehemently as a theist, what's this all about? I was referring to:

Dancing around = many Christians move from one argument to another as each one is blown apart. Bible as God's infallible word? Handily refuted. Er, miracles? No proof whatsoever. Well then, it's *personal* revelation.

Gymnastics = the amazing twists and turns it takes to (try and) reconcile the irreconcilable contradictions and absurdities of Christian doctrine.

Spinning in circles = the ever popular circular logic.

Anyhoo I don't wish to derail the specific topic of THIS thread too much further but if you have additional questions for me I would be more than happy to respond if you start a new thread! :)

[Pensee]

II itself didn't deconvert me, but people from II did. Or at least they took the blinders off my eyes, forced me to see Xianity for what it is, and the rest is history...;)

P.S. You may read my very first post here (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3792&perpage=25&pagenumber=1) .

[Philosoft]

Originally posted by Badfish
Nope, science hasn't decimated anything, and it hasn't ruled out first cause via creation. :)
That's nice. How is an assertion that an unevidenced God is responsible for an unevidenced "first cause" anything other than a statement of faith?

[Badfish]

Originally posted by Philosoft
That's nice. How is an assertion that an unevidenced God is responsible for an unevidenced "first cause" anything other than a statement of faith?

It's not, it's about the same as having faith in science which has no idea about a first cause for the universe. :)

[lpetrich]

However, a First Cause of the Universe would be VERY distant from us, and likely completely uninterested in us.

[Badfish]

Originally posted by lpetrich
However, a First Cause of the Universe would be VERY distant from us, and likely completely uninterested in us.

Maybe not as distant as you think, and maybe the designer is more interested than you think. ;)

[HRG]

Originally posted by Badfish
It's not, it's about the same as having faith in science which has no idea about a first cause for the universe. :)

This of course is relevant only under the assumption that there is a first cause for the universe.

BTW, postulating a powerful and suitably motivated disembodied mind as explanation for the universe only replaces a smaller problem with a larger one: explaining the existence and motivation of this mind.

Regards,
HRG.

[HRG]

Deleted (as duplicate)

[lpetrich]

Originally posted by Badfish
Maybe not as distant as you think, and maybe the designer is more interested than you think. ;) And maybe that alleged entity enjoys teasing you.

[Philosoft]

Originally posted by Badfish
It's not, it's about the same as having faith in science which has no idea about a first cause for the universe.
What? "Insufficient data" is a statement of faith?

[Mageth]

Maybe not as distant as you think, and maybe the designer is more interested than you think.

Isn't believing in what may be "faith"?

[AJ113]

Originally posted by Badfish
You mean you use a religious fallacy as a base for giving something up? :confused:

My comment was intended to be humerous and I'm sure you know that, but just in case you don't:

I spent all my life giving up various negative activities during the RC season of Lent.

My point is that this year it was different because during the seson of Lent I gave up the religion itself.

[AJ113]

Originally posted by Badfish
Ignored by who? Letting the shortcomings of man decide your eternal fate is dangerous and unwarranted. Jesus can be and is a personal relationship.

No you don't have to be a Christian to be a decent chap. :)

Oh, dear I'm beginning to think that you have a comprehension problem.

Please show me where I said that the shortcomings of man were responsible for deciding my eternal fate (whatever that is.) My religious beliefs, or lack of them are based on the fact that there is no evidence to support the existence of god(s).

I was merely commenting that I, too used to post inane replies like "II has helped to strengthen my faith."

[Badfish]

Originally posted by AJ113
My comment was intended to be humerous and I'm sure you know that, but just in case you don't:

I spent all my life giving up various negative activities during the RC season of Lent.

My point is that this year it was different because during the seson of Lent I gave up the religion itself.

Well theres the problem, you should have just been a basicalist (fundie), not to be confused with a radicalist.

[Badfish]

Originally posted by AJ113


I was merely commenting that I, too used to post inane replies like "II has helped to strengthen my faith."

Can you qualify that my response was inane? Are you a judger of hearts? Can you see into my heart? If not I would reserve judgmental words like inane for something in which you can verify or state with proof.

And I would say that a Comprehension problem could actually be said of someone who gives up their faith as a result of people on a messageboard.

A Christian can comprehend it's souls and origins if they open their mind and souls to the word of God.

[AJ113]

Originally posted by Badfish
Can you qualify that my response was inane? Are you a judger of hearts? Can you see into my heart? If not I would reserve judgmental words like inane for something in which you can verify or state with proof.
[/QUOTE

Read the post, fella. The inane remarks I was referring to were my own. Surely I can judge myself?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Badfish

And I would say that a Comprehension problem could actually be said of someone who gives up their faith as a result of people on a messageboard.



Read the post, fella. It goes something like: "My religious beliefs, or lack of them are based on the fact that there is no evidence to support the existence of god(s). "

Note the absence of phrases such as "My religious beliefs, or lack of them are based on the opinions of people on a message board. "

Originally posted by Badfish


A Christian can comprehend it's souls and origins if they open their mind and souls to the word of God.

And the evidence for this pearl of wisdom is?

[Philosoft]

Badfish,

I don't usually pursue responses to my posts that are apparently deliberately ignored, but I'd really like an answer if it's not too much trouble. To reiterate:"Insufficient data" is a statement of faith?
Thanks.

[Badfish]

Originally posted by Philosoft
Badfish,

I don't usually pursue responses to my posts that are apparently deliberately ignored, but I'd really like an answer if it's not too much trouble. To reiterate:
Thanks.

Sorry Philosoft. I was indisposed, I would never deliberately ignore you or anyone. :)

I don't quite understand, are you saying that God has insufficient data? Or did I say that somewhere?

[HelenM]

I may be wrong but I think Philosoft is saying that scientists say "I don't know because there is insufficient data" whereas you wrote something to the effect that the viewpoint of scientists is one of faith. So he's asking you to clarify whether you therefore are saying that when scientists say the data is insufficient, that's a statement of faith?

Helen

[Stormy]

You are correct Helen. Science is about the natural aspects of this world. Science does not value nor devalue the Supernatural.

For a Christian to side against science is just as ludicrous as an Atheist using science to support his position.

[livius drusus]

Originally posted by Stormy
For a Christian to side against science is just as ludicrous as an Atheist using science to support his position. What position are you referring to? It's perfectly valid for an atheist to use science in reply to religious claims about the natural world, for instance.

[Badfish]

Not exactly, there are some sciences that one would be wise to be skeptical of.

There are so many sciences, but the one I like to refute is the carbon dating sciences (which of course is the major point of most atheists), which man embraces as fact, when it has been shown to be just the opposite.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Stormy
You are correct Helen. Science is about the natural aspects of this world. Science does not value nor devalue the Supernatural.

For a Christian to side against science is just as ludicrous as an Atheist using science to support his position.

Stormy if only it were that simple. The theist uses the supernatural as an explanative construct for natural phenomenon (god did it). Science and religion are in conflict since often both offer very different explanations of the same phenomenon (it’s a miracle vs. a natural event). Also your claim that the atheist uses science to support their position is ludicrous. In this day and age it is the theists that lives by scientific (natural) explanations in their daily lives and then insists on accepting supernatural explanations on Sunday. Now that is ludicrous!

Starboy

[Badfish]

Originally posted by Stormy
You are correct Helen. Science is about the natural aspects of this world. Science does not value nor devalue the Supernatural.

For a Christian to side against science is just as ludicrous as an Atheist using science to support his position.

I almost agree.

However like I said before there are sciences that any person especially Christians would be wise to be skeptical of. Sure it's great to study, but one would be wise to not base their faith or origins on.

[Badfish]

Originally posted by Starboy
Stormy if only it were that simple. The theist uses the supernatural as an explanative construct for the natural (god did it). Science and religion are in conflict since often both offer very different explanations of the same phenomenon (it’s a miracle vs. a natural event). Also your claim that the atheist uses science to support their position is ludicrous. In this day and age it is the theists that lives by scientific (natural) explanations in their daily lives and then insists on accepting supernatural explanations on Sunday. Now that is ludicrous!

Starboy

So you agree with most atheists I have talked to, and you are happy to just not know?

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Badfish
So you agree with most atheists I have talked to, and you are happy to just not know?

My, my, how you do put words into my post. If there is one theme in my life it has been curiosity. I want to know everything. But I have learned a long time ago that making up an explanation because it fills the void is no substitute for actual knowledge. I am not afraid to admit it when I do not know something. It is the first step toward actually learning the unknown. Theism is the haven of the frightened. They hide behind their supernatural explanations because it makes them feel good. The boldly curious are not so afflicted. Intellectual honesty demands that one accepts reality as it is, whether one likes it or not.

Starboy

[Badfish]

Originally posted by Starboy
Theism is the haven of the frightened. They hide behind their supernatural explanations because it makes them feel good. The boldly curious are not so afflicted. Intellectual honesty demands that one accepts reality as it is, whether one likes it or not.

Starboy

As a physics student and Christian, I would have to say that you are incorrect, at least about me.

Intellectual honesty demands that one accepts reality as it is, whether one likes it or not.

And the same goes for accepting God and what he has created.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Badfish
As a physics student and Christian, I would have to say that you are incorrect, at least about me. And the same goes for accepting God and what he has created.

So when you are doing physics do you explain phenomena with "god did it!" or do you seek natural explanations?

Starboy

[Badfish]

Originally posted by Starboy
So when you are doing physics do you explain phenomena with "god did it!" or do you seek natural explanations?

Starboy

Science says to seek natural explainations first.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Badfish
Science says to seek natural explainations first.

Badfish, give it up. You will make a badphysicist. Science says to seek natural explanations only. Anything that can't be explained naturally is put into the unknown catagory, not the "god did it" catagory.

Starboy

[Badfish]

Originally posted by Starboy
Badfish, give it up. You will make a badphysicist. Science says to seek natural explanations only. Anything that can't be explained naturally is put into the unknown catagory, not the "god did it" catagory.

Starboy

I am not studying to be a physicist, and science makes no such disclaimers, I only qualified my position, but the very definition of basic science is to explain things using natural explainations.

As a Christian when that science fails to explain I take the position that I tried it first.

So obviously in such a field of study the first thing to do would be to seek natural explainations first.

And since science fails so often, I would presume that you bask in that "unknown" catagory quite often, no?

[Stormy]

Originally posted by Starboy
My, my, how you do put words into my post. If there is one theme in my life it has been curiosity. I want to know everything. But I have learned a long time ago that making up an explanation because it fills the void is no substitute for actual knowledge. I am not afraid to admit it when I do not know something. It is the first step toward actually learning the unknown. Theism is the haven of the frightened. They hide behind their supernatural explanations because it makes them feel good. The boldly curious are not so afflicted. Intellectual honesty demands that one accepts reality as it is, whether one likes it or not.

Starboy

It is comments like this that are so far from the truth.

Frighten? Is that really what you think? You think we made up a God to bring us comfort?

You are so wrong. For to truly accept the truth, that there is indeed a God, takes courage. Just imagine if you were to die, and found out that your atheism was wrong. If you were to confront an indescribable all-powerful Spirit. Would you then not be frightened? We know that is our destination... to meet God.

In my opinion, the easy way out is to adopt the no-god mindset of the Atheist.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Badfish
I am not studying to be a physicist, and science makes no such disclaimers, I only qualified my position, but the very definition of basic science is to explain things using natural explainations.

What disclaimer are you talking about? That there is no supernatural? If that is so I agree with you, but then again science doesn't say there is a supernatural either. But that is not the crux of the matter. It is the supernaturalists that claim that the supernatural does exist. Furthermore it is they that claim that it operates in the natural. The conflict between science and religion is very real in those cases where both claim very different explanations for the same phenomena.

Originally posted by Badfish
As a Christian when that science fails to explain I take the position that I tried it first.

So obviously in such a field of study the first thing to do would be to seek natural explainations first.

Badfish, if you were a scientists seeking natural explanations would be the only thing you would do. To do otherwise would be to stop being a scientist. For a scientists it is not the first thing, it is the only thing! As a supernaturalist all explanations are based on the supernatural. Yes supernaturlists allow for some component of the natural but disallow that an explanation can be all natural. After all, as a supernaturalist you automatically assume a first cause that is not natural. You may hem and haw about what the first cause is but you will not allow existence without it. What greater conflict could there be?

Originally posted by Badfish
And since science fails so often, I would presume that you bask in that "unknown" catagory quite often, no?

Badfish, if everything were known there would be no point to studying nature now would there, yet another reason why it would be hard for a know-it-all theist to be a scientist. But here is the very funny thing about this entire conversation. If science were not such a powerful method for understanding our surroundings and not such an obvious threat to the theists that look at existence through god colored glasses we would not be having this discussion. Monday through Saturday you are all accepters of scientific explanations, on Sunday you revert to superstitious natives of the first century. Now that is funny!

Starboy

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Stormy
It is comments like this that are so far from the truth.

Ahhhh, another “truth” monger. Soooo Stormy, you are a keeper of the holy “truth”. How nice for you.

Originally posted by Stormy
Frighten? Is that really what you think? You think we made up a God to bring us comfort?

I think that “god” was invented for a variety of reasons. I think that many are attracted to religion because of fear and certainly the vast majority practices their religion out of fear. I live behind a Catholic church. After 9/11 there was a big jump in attendance. This jump in attendance was reported all over the nation. Now why Stormy do you think that was? Could it be fear? It is the most likely explanation.

Originally posted by Stormy
You are so wrong. For