Atheist & agnostic alcoholics - support

[Gurdur]

Instead of doing what I really should be doing *, for inscrutable reasons of my own I'm posting the following information for atheist and agnostic alcoholics/opiate abusers in the USA:

Information for atheist & agnostic AA people (http://www.primenet.com/~jmassie/wagslist.htm)

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT AA FOR AGNOSTICS, ATHEISTS AND "FREETHINKERS" (http://www.primenet.com/~jmassie/wagsfaq.htm)

NON-PRAYER AA MEETINGS: A NATIONWIDE LIST (http://www.primenet.com/~jmassie/wagsmeets.htm)

A Different Road: Quad A Offers Help To Alcoholics Who Don't Buy Into God (http://www.primenet.com/~jmassie/wagsquada.htm)

An Agnostic's 12 Steps (http://www.lakeweb1.com/mrp/literature/agnost12.htm)

Secular Organizations for Sobriety (http://cfiwest.org/sos/)
(which is a part of :)
Welcome to the Center for Inquiry-West (http://www.cfiwest.org/)
Did you know that there are at least a million skeptics, humanists, and other rationalists in the Greater Los Angeles area? ....

______________

* What I should be doing is making my reply to Metacrock's last posting in our formal debate.
But I'll do that tomorrow, promise.

[ November 11, 2001: Message edited by: Gurdur. ]

[cricket]

and
Rational Recovery (http://rational.org/)

[ November 11, 2001: Message edited by: cricket ]

[Gurdur]

Cricket,
I saw a couple of organizations like Rational Recovery when searching for info.
I decided not to include them since I'm suspicious of them for 3 reasons:

Profit motive - they seem to be selling their own recovery programs

Fear and loathing of AA and Al-Anon - a lot of attacks on AA and Al-Anon that don't seem justified to me (though I admit I don't know the American versions of AA and Al-Anon at first-hand)

And finallly, the most important: Results.
As far as I know, AA and Narcotics Anonymous have the highest success rates, and Al-Anon for relatives.

[ November 11, 2001: Message edited by: Gurdur. ]

[Someone7]

Yeah, normal AA programs can be such religious affairs. I went to one with my mother who is a recovering alcoholic, and I couldn't believe just how much the people actually organizing the affair mentioned God, merely reading from their documents (though of course the actual first thing they did is say this is not a religious affair, probably to avoid some law). There was a huge sign on the wall that was a pledge like thing (the 12 sayings or something), which basically said in the first line "I thank God for helping me recover, without his help I would be lost". I sat quietly sipping my coffee and reading The Story of Philosophy (good book by the way). Though at the end of it, I accidentally got up thinking we were about to leave, when we were actually doing a group prayer, while holding hands...

I just decided to stand through it and hold some stranger's hang rather than making a scene, though I didn't recite the prayer or say amen.

My question is, why does the government allow these things to become so religious, or rather, why does the government force people to go to these things? Something unconstitutional has got to be going on.

[Gurdur]

Yes, Someone 7, the stories I hear about religiousity in the USA AA horrify me too.
Believe me, AA is different - and very non-religious - in other countries.

I think it's part of an overall American illness, with religiousity creeping into everything.

[ November 11, 2001: Message edited by: Gurdur. ]

[Maverick]

Here's another good site for AA info: Recovery Watch @ Positiveatheism.org (http://www.positiveatheism.org/tocrw.htm#TOP)

Maverick

[isaac42]

Originally posted by Gurdur.:
<STRONG>And finallly, the most important: Results.
As far as I know, AA and Narcotics Anonymous have the highest success rates, and Al-Anon for relatives.</STRONG>

And how would you know this? I am under the impression that AA refuses to make their results public.

Isaac

[Gurdur]

Originally posted by isaac42:

And how would you know this? I am under the impression that AA refuses to make their results public.

Isaac

With the proviso that I don't know all that much over the USA situation;

I used to work as a psych nurse (in Australia, and I know something of the situation in Great Britain)), dealing with alkies and narkies.

We used to get heavily into stats when discussing treatment programs at the clinic.

[Howard]

Sorry Gurdur but this is your own fault. We told you that debating Metacrock would drive you to drink but you wouldn't listen. You have no one to blame but yourself.

[Gurdur]

Originally posted by Howard:
Sorry Gurdur but this is your own fault. We told you that debating Metacrock would drive you to drink but you wouldn't listen. You have no one to blame but yourself.

&lt; chortle, chortle :D &gt;

FYI (everyone): I'm neither an alkie nor a narkie *, not that it matters.
Just someone who's interested in this area, and had some experience with it.
If anyone is really interested, I can start diging out stats, though it'll take a fair amount of time.

* Aussie slang

[cricket]

Sorry Gurdur but this is your own fault. We told you that debating Metacrock would drive you to drink but you wouldn't listen.

Debating my ass; just reading the 'crock's debate has driven me to drink. &lt;glug, glug&gt;

[Mad Kally]

From Maverick's link:

Oregon Suit Challenges
AA's Secular Status

by Cliff Walker -- February, 1992
a KBOO-FM radio report by Cliff Walker

A lawsuit was filed in the Federal District Court in Eugene, Oregon on Monday, February 24, 1992, seeking an injunction to prevent Oregon State agencies (Corrections, the Courts, etc.) from requiring clients to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. This suit alleges that the AA Program is religious, "advocating faith in God, submission to God, confession to God, prayer, and meditation" (attorney John Meyer -- Astoria, Oregon). In my opinion, AA does not have a leg to stand on because their literature (particularly the book Alcoholics Anonymous, a.k.a., the Big Book) is not open to interpretation.

In California some counties force people to go to AA meetings by court order. AA is very religious here in the US. People convicted of Driving Under the Influence (DUI) are given a 'court card'. A sentence could be a large fine and 50 AA meetings plus an expensive program where they randomly pull out the breathalizer. (sp)
After each meeting everyone holds hands and says the Lord's Prayer or the Serenity Prayer. Only then will the secretary of the meeting sign a court card.

The people in the meetings are constantly telling stories about how "God" or "Jebus" saved them from the gutter or from death etc.

Hey, if god was so great, why didn't they just go to the nearest church?

Alcoholics Anonymous is a self-fulfilling prophecy. They repeatedly tell you that if you quit going to meetings you will get drunk again. Each time you drink the results will be more horrible than the time before. When this is pounded into people's brains often enough it comes true.

I've heard of "Secular" AA meetings, but they must be extremely few and far between.

AA is jokingly referred to as a "Revolving Door". I think the success rate here is rather pathetic.

Kally

P.S. cricket, I read Meta's posts sometimes late at night. It's the cure for insomnia! :D

[Pantera]

I'm quite surprised to hear how religious it is in the States. Luckily I've never had need of them myself, but in the UK whenever celebrties are interviewed coming out of rehab, the very first question they get asked tends to be "so, what did you use to represent God?" It's practically taken for granted that "God, as you see Him" in the 12 step programme doesn't mean the big bloke in the sky.

[Maverick]

bump

[s76fitz]

www.agnosticAAnyc.org

[Papertowl]

I was watching Penn and Teller BS and they found out that people going to AA have a 5% success rate and people who try quitting on their own have a 5% success rate. They argued that AA made people feel as if they were so weak that they could not stop drinking without the help of a higher power. They also argued that their is only one real step, which is not drinking.