Would it be wrong to join the military? [Archive I]

2tadpoles

February 14, 2002, 02:33 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Secular Elation:
To me, at least, it seems that atheists/humanists/objectivists/skepticists are near-pacifists and oppose war. I agree with them.
<hr></blockquote>

In an ideal world, there would be no war. Our world is not ideal. The best offense is a strong defense. As a former military member and military spouse, I strongly support our military.

[quote]But as a secular humanist, would it be anti-humanistic to join something that is subject to involvement with violence and war? <hr></blockquote>

That is a matter of opinion. Our military also provides humanitarian aid. IMO, being a humanist means doing what's best for humankind as a whole. Allowing people like Bin Laden to roam free, causing chaos and catastrophe, is not in our best interests.

[quote] You see, I have no interest to join the military for violent reasons, but for a sense of duty and for financial aid for college.<hr></blockquote>

So are you the type who would join the military for the $$$ and then cry when asked to perform certain duties? If so, don't bother joining. Most people in the service have no use for people like that, and it lowers morale.

[quote]If I did join the military, I would definitely join the Navy or maybe even the Air Force. I wouldn't join any other brach, like the Army or the Marines, because they are soldiers who wield weapons and they are trained for combat. I reject resorting to violence, and I despise the idea that I will be called to a course of action in which I may be required to kill someone.

In the Navy or Air Force, however, I would be a sailor or a pilot and I would not directly involve myself with the forms of violence that our military is subject to.<hr></blockquote>

You do not seem to realize what sailors and pilots DO in the military. Do you think they just float and fly around all day, looking pretty? Pilots drop bombs. Pilots shoot at other pilots. Ships are full of missiles.... that's what the sailors are there for; to shoot the missiles. Even the cooks on the ship are involved, since they feed the sailors who shoot the missiles. You may not actively be involved in pulling the trigger, but you will be passively involved no matter what your job.

It matters more what job you fall into in the military, rather than what branch of service. A Navy airman is more likely to be involved in a combat situation than an Army supply clerk, for instance.

You say you would definitely join the Navy (or maybe the Air Force) because of the lower risk of violence? Who do you think was sent out after September 11? Navy and Air Force, mostly.

charmandar670

February 14, 2002, 02:44 PM

If you do decide to join the military dont expect it to be a walk in the park with your beliefs. The biggest mistake I ever made, besides joining, was putting "atheist" on my dog tags. It's a friggin get your ass chewed out every five minutes by a hick from idaho with a lisp magnet. I know what your thinking, this is America I can just report the above said individuals for discimination. I wont even go there, unless you wanna get busted down to private by you good christian commanders and be filling sand bags till the cows come home. If your ever out in Arizona near a certain signals base check out the obstacle course, I built it one sand bag at a time.

There are better ways to get finacial aid for school then the GI bill, which I personaly didnt get a dime out of. Besides im sure you'd rather flip burgers then get shot at all day.

Sgt Pepper, retired popup target and recovering alcohalic.

ImGod

February 14, 2002, 02:46 PM

Basic training in any branch of the military will teach you how to kill someone. As hard as you try, you still may be required to actively participate in violent acts.

My uncle was on an aircraft carrier in the navy during Vietnam. He was sent to an onshore base as a part of some sort of supply mission. The base was attacked while they were there and he spent several days in the middle of a fierce firefight. When things calmed down, he went back to his ship. It was the only direct military action he was involved in during the time he was there, but it was bad enough that he will not give any details.

If you join the military, you must prepare mentally for the possibility that you will be required to participate in a military action that will directly lead to the deaths of others. If that bothers you, you may want to consider another source of financial aid for college.

Dark Jedi

February 14, 2002, 04:15 PM

Examine your reasons for joining. I did so because I needed training, I needed discipline, and I love my country.
I was trained, I was disciplined, and I fought for my country. I went for retirement, but too many of my reasons for joining was fulfilled already, and my body was not holding up to the strain, so I left.

The G.I. bill benefits are OK, but the educational benefits while active are far superior. Get your degree while active, and use the GI bill to fund your masters later.
Bone up on the ASVAB test, the better your score, the more likely that YOU will pick your training rather than have it chosen for you.

Then pick your service. (I am gonna get flamed, but this is how I saw the services, and I attended schools from all branches and served with all branches of the main 4)

Marines: Tough, a challenge from day 1. Good technical training for technical fields. They don't have many of their own schools, so they pick the best of the other services and send you there.

Army: Tough too, though a tad easier in day-to-day life. Better funding, better equipment and bases. Some training of their own, but similar to Marines in higher technical fields. Better balance of quality of life and toughness.

Navy: The best technical schools and training, hands down. Tough life if you get a shipboard billet, though. Sucks big time to be a seaman, your entire life is a 2x6 cot in a tin can and a mop. Decent bases, some really great adventures while at sea, interspaced with mind numbing boredom.

Air Force: Decent schools, but too specialized. You learn what you need to perform your job function, no more. No adaptability in training, narrow scope education hurts you when you get out and seek a job. By far the best quality of life, best bases, easiest life of the services. We called them "Civilians in Uniform". Not a bad thing, in retrospect.

If i had it to do again, I would have done one tour in the Marines for the discipline and training, then re-treaded into the AF for the rest of my career.

charmandar670

February 14, 2002, 08:24 PM

Marines: Buncha womanizing jarheads with only two MOSes; Infantryman and Ammo carrier. I will give them props on the hardcore thing though, I couldnt think of a better buncha grunts i'd want covering my six.

(my personal choice)
Army: Tough? mentally maybe but physically its a walk in the part. Has to be the branch with the most job oppertunites, however depending where your stationed life can range form medicore to oh my gawd what was I thinking.

Navy: I havnt had much experience with the navy guys but of the ones i've met they all seem to come from Boston and like John Waters (the drag queen). Don't think i've ever seen them do PT either.

Air Force: Couldn't agree with you more on that one, I dont even know why its one of the armed services. I'd even go as far as to compare them to the girl scouts. They do have some of the best looking women though.

SGT Pepper, former popup target and recovering alcohalic.

Dark Jedi

February 14, 2002, 09:50 PM

[quote]Originally posted by charmandar670:
Marines: Buncha womanizing jarheads with only two MOSes; Infantryman and Ammo carrier. I will give them props on the hardcore thing though, I couldnt think of a better buncha grunts i'd want covering my six.

(my personal choice)
Army: Tough? mentally maybe but physically its a walk in the part. Has to be the branch with the most job oppertunites, however depending where your stationed life can range form medicore to oh my gawd what was I thinking.

Navy: I havnt had much experience with the navy guys but of the ones i've met they all seem to come from Boston and like John Waters (the drag queen). Don't think i've ever seen them do PT either.

Air Force: Couldn't agree with you more on that one, I dont even know why its one of the armed services. I'd even go as far as to compare them to the girl scouts. They do have some of the best looking women though.

SGT Pepper, former popup target and recovering alcohalic.<hr></blockquote>

Actually, the Army girls I saw were the prettiest. They tended to be more fit while just as pretty. Not that every service didn't have their shining jewels, just more of them in the Army, that I saw.

As for the Navy doing PT, I saw it once. Three squids were running for all they were worth, and really putting their heart into it.

Of course, they were Shore Patrol, and chasing a drunk Jarhead who shall remain unnamed...
They never did catch him, that little bastard was fast, even for the run-happy Marines. That 3 miles a day with an average of 17min 30sec 3-mile I, I mean he, maintained paid off. :cool:

excreationist

February 14, 2002, 10:53 PM

I think it is a good idea for humanists to be intelligence officers in the military. Nations will fight in wars whether humanists join the military or not. On the other hand they'd get worried if Christians had decided to not join the military.
If you manage to become a high ranking officer (e.g. in intelligence) then you can sure that the military is very humane and moral (rather than immoral and corrupt).
But even as a low-ranking officer you can influence others quite a bit and dob corrupt officers in.

And I think it would even be a good idea to go in front-line combat - otherwise the army would rely a lot on ex-convicts or something. You can try and make sure the front-line people aren't torturing their enemies, etc. You could try to moderate the people in the front line (this is probably only appropriate if you became the squad leader or something) - so you could try and just take prisoners and avoid shooting others. If you can't take prisoners, you could do your best to try and make sure the team never injures any civilians unnecessarily and only injures or kills armed enemies if absolutely necessary.

By not being on the front line you're just ignoring the problem of excessive force by the military. See the "Deer Hunter" or "Platoon" movies or maybe it was "Full Metal Jacket" - anyway at some point they killed people unnecessarily. Though sometimes seemingly harmless civilians are actually armed. I think you should act like a moral cop and only harm or kill people if absolutely necessary. e.g. not just burst in and kill everything or blow everything up.
The Americans like to just blow everything up because it saves the lives of Americans... but snipers could probably do a job more or less just as good. They'd need silencers on their guns (that also hide the muzzle flash) otherwise the enemy would find the snipers very easily.

In the air-force I'm not sure if the pilots have any say over what they bomb. They are probably just given orders. Well if you're going to go in the air-force it would be better to be a high-ranking officer that orders the pilots what to do. But these officers have to probably do what the army wants them to do. And this is probably based on ground troops like squad leaders (or whatever they're called). Basically I'm talking about being an officer than goes onto the land in person and would probably have a lot of say in the decisions that are made.

Maybe go for the Marines... ! I think "Full Metal Jacket" is about that. It would be really tough to be respected among them though.

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]

Vorkosigan

February 15, 2002, 01:54 AM

Secular Elation, I think a lot of us thought about joining the military at your age. Give it some time. It may just be a phase.

Michael

abe smith

February 15, 2002, 10:45 AM

From the Outside, looking-on: my perception is that except for "Friendly Fire" == "whch ISN'T", {see the day's news about under what circs service members get injured & killed!}, your physical ass, Dude, may be a damn sight safer in one of the branches of service --- not getting drunk, getting into fights & killed in an alley; not getting killed in a civilian carcrash by some other drunken fool civilian; not getting off post too often to pick up something lethal from a pick-up....... Think about this. Furthermore doing time for Uncle Sam could give you some time/space to sort out what you want to do w/ your one & precious life; and even perhaps get some credit hours in; & maybe save a few bucks etc while you're growing-up a little. However, please do not use these random thoughts of mine here to make up your mind by. Grandpa.

DB_Hunter

February 15, 2002, 11:43 AM

My brother's at Texas A&M in the Corps - he'll be a senior next year. AF Intel's already got their claws in him, and just need to drag him off after graduation.

I could have gone military - but I don't care for people yelling in my face. I also don't care for the brainwashing involved in basic training - my mind is my own, and I will not let another attempt to modify the way I think. The JROTC commander at my high school kept pestering me to join, and after I graduated, told me that I could have gone on and been corps commander for the district - I let my brother do that instead. I've got more of a paramilitary bent myself.

This is what he wants to do, and I wish him the best. He wants to fly and go into NASA, and be a pilot on the Earth-Mars route. If that happens, I will have to stow away (grin)...

DB

4th Generation Atheist

February 15, 2002, 04:15 PM

Kid, DON'T SIGN ANYTHING until you know for sure. It's a hell of a lot easier to get in than out! As far as the ideals go, look into your own heart, no one else can decide that for you (whether you have a religion or not). Take into account what's been said here concerning the duties of the Armed Forces; killing when necessary is part of the job. If a sense of duty calls you to do something related to the military but without direct involvement in the violence at some point in your life, consider civilian support jobs for when you finish school. Great technical work, and you'll never go to the front lines. Another way to give to your country is in the civil service; you'll get the gov't bennies with it, though the jobs are often dull or frustrating. But you can quit without applying for a discharge.

For money for college I'd consider looking into scholarships from private sources as well as those better known, get a deferred loan, or if you're really hard up a grant and a state school. (These schools are not as "bad" as some people think. Just check out the department you're interested in first.)

One other note: look at what was said considering discrimination in the military. It can be awfully hard to fight this phenomenon when you're in such a position; don't forget you'll likely be living at the base with the people you're complaining against. Pay attention to what's been said here.

FaithNoMore

February 15, 2002, 04:19 PM

[quote]Marines: Buncha womanizing jarheads with only two MOSes; Infantryman and Ammo carrier. I will give them props on the hardcore thing though, I couldnt think of a better buncha grunts i'd want covering my six. <hr></blockquote>

--I strongly beg to differ. I am not sure if this was a joke, or a generalized opinion. I am a Marine right now, and granted, there are plenty of your "womanizing jarheads" running around; However, not all are like this. As far as the MOS goes, I am neither a grunt, nor an ammo carrier. I have a technical MOS. The funny thing is, is we just did a 10 mile hump today for "fun".

[quote]DB_Hunter : ...I could have gone military - but I don't care for people yelling in my face. I also don't care for the brainwashing involved in basic training - my mind is my own, and I will not let another attempt to modify the way I think. The JROTC commander at my high school kept pestering me to join, and after I graduated, told me that I could have gone on and been corps commander for the district - I let my brother do that instead. I've got more of a paramilitary bent myself. <hr></blockquote>
--I really dislike comments like this, not matter how true they can be sometimes. My friends tell me the same thing. The way I look at it; they are a bunch of whining pussies that are afraid to try something different. Something CHALLENGING. Call me strange, but I was never brainwashed. Not even in boot-camp. If someone "attempts to modify the way you think", don't let them. Silence is golden, my friend.

-- On another note, I love the stereotypes that go along with the military. THey make me laugh, because the people that make them have no idea what it's like. Don't knock it til you try it is what I say.

--Secular Elation : I'm an Atheist living in GA. You want to know the scoop, I'm the person to ask. I have Atheist printed on my dog tags, and believe me, people don't like it. I just recently got promoted to Corporal, and before the ceremony, I asked the platoon commander if he would leave out the "so help me god" part out of the oath of enlistment; Nothing like standing at attention, not being able to support your ideas in fear of your promotion warrant being revoked. To answer your question, there is NOTHING wrong with being an Atheist in the military. Just be prepared to be questioned, and looked at like you're a lesser person. Just let it make you stronger inside.
--To answer your comments on not being a violent person, or freethinkers being non-violent; I would say don't waste your time, because the military is not for you. I don't think anyone really "prays" for war, but if the time comes, we have an obligation to "..defend the Constitution against all enemies; Foreign and domestic..." People ask me if I'm ready to die for my country. I tell them, NO. When they ask why, I tell them "I'm ready to LIVE for my country". I'll be damned if some raghead, AK shooting son-of-a-bitch takes my life. Gathered from your comments though, I would say unless you're ready for it, it's not for you. Everyone likes the college fund and G.I. Bill(me included, because I'm using it right now), but that's as far as people think when it comes to "serving". Give it plenty of thought, and don't let anyone persuade you otherwise. Good luck my friend!

Semper Fidelis...
~FaithNoMore

16Feb02 - Modified to change quote from 'Oath of Enlistment'. Argh!!!

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: FaithNoMore ]

Bluenose

February 15, 2002, 05:48 PM

SE: There is one big question you need to resolve: is my aversion to violence rise to the self identification of pacifist or Conscientious Objector? If your core value is life first and you still want the benefits and training then you could enlist as a "Group 10" ie Medical and/or Dental fields. As G10 you may not legally be trained in combat arms/ pilot etc, but you will still fire a rifle at least once in boot camp and in some situations be required to wear a side arm. Your atheism/humanism will not be your biggest problem as a GI in any branch. Your very high IQ as proven by your string of very articulate and well thought posts proves your ability to think, express yourself and discuss/debate ideas/issues. WHEN in the stupid side of 'rome', you will not do as the other romans do. You will not blindly follow the crowd and conformity to a certain LCD lifestyle might prove STRESSful. BUT it is possible to avoid that fate as a constant book reader. I was an HM3 on a troop transport during the Viet Nam era and saw many different ways to adapt or avoid peer pressure. No one ever asked if I had gone to a Quaker college and would you believe the morality/ethics issues never came up between 1963 and 66..[Most GIs avoid both religion and politics in daily casual conversation.] At one point I was ship's librarian and know how much both sailors and marines loved to read. ( The smartest people seemed to like Sci fi or history) SO there are some more angles to consider.

Secular Elation

February 15, 2002, 09:12 PM

1)I realize that I should make a decision based on my own feelings than consulting the opinions of others, but I dislike the idea of engaging in a course of action that most other humanists would criticize me about ("You joined the military? Oh, so you are in favor of violence, war, and non-peace?")

2)Regarding the issue of financial aid for college, that is not the only reason I would possibly enlist in the military. As I stated in my original post, I believe in duty and serving one's country--I merely would like to accomplish this through means other than the possibility of violence. I would attempt to find alternative means of finance for college, but I am unqualified for most scholarships because I do not have the necessary grades to receive them.

There is the opportunity for using a college loan, but I do not think highly of the fact that I will have to slowly repay it for several years after I've managed a degree and installed myself in a career.

3)I would like to promulgate that I am not an absolute pacifist. I do think that there are some situations that may require the use of force. I simply believe that we should always make a strong effort in seeking peaceful solutions. I see violence as a very last resort. In any case, I am only afraid that I will go beyond this if I enlist in the military.

My opinions on this subject may be immature, and I do need to consider a few more variables before making a decision.

Secular Jeff

February 15, 2002, 09:49 PM

Hi Secular Elation,

[quote]To me, at least, it seems that atheists/humanists/objectivists/skepticists are near-pacifists and oppose war.<hr></blockquote>

Where did you get an idea like that? There are a number of us unbelievers in the US military, and in the armed forces of most nations on this planet.

During college I enrolled in the U.S. Air Force Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC). I even got a scholarship during my last two years in college.

I spent almost 5 years as a Minuteman III ICBM Missile Launch Officer.

I spent a year as a Space Systems Director at the Ballistic Missile Early Warning System (BMEWS)at Thule Air Base, Greenland.

I spent 5 years in Air Force Space Command at Cheyenne Mountain Air Station in Colorado. For a little more than two of those years I was qualified as an Events Verification Officer in the Missile Warning Center.

For the past 8 years I have been a civilian employee of Air Force Space Command at Cheyenne Mountain, controlling the testing of new hardware and software.

Three other members of the current Internet Infidels Board of Directors are US Armed Forces veterans. Jeffery Lowder, past President of the Internet Infidels was a U.S. Air Force officer.

These are just 5 examples in our very small community. There are many of us out here.

There is also an organization named, the <a href="http://www.infidels.org/org/maaf/" target="_blank">Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers</a>

I can't help you make your decision. You need to study and research this for yourself.

Good luck,

Jeff Lucas
President, Internet Infidels

emphryio

February 15, 2002, 10:45 PM

Its actually quite absurd to join the military to help pay for college. Because you can of course get college loans, all you have to do is be poor and graduate from high school. Beyond that, simply figure out where you'll be in 8 years by military then college versus straight college. Here's a hint: Either way you'll probably still be in debt.

Beyond that, I would say the current military is only for people who have serious ... issues and can't survive in the real world.

It shouldn't be that way. The idea of having pride in serving your country is nice. But actually serving in the U.S. military quickly dispelled me of that idea.

There was no pride. Only shame at being some worthless grunt in an ugly costume.

It was like I had committed some crime and this was my punishment.

I think they need to learn to treat people with common decency and respect. Until then, I hope nobody ever joins again.

emphryio

February 15, 2002, 10:50 PM

Also concering the post directly above mine.
The experiences of an officer and of an enlisted person in the military have absolutely no relation with each other.

FaithNoMore

February 16, 2002, 11:01 AM

[quote]Originally posted by emphryio:
Its actually quite absurd to join the military to help pay for college. Because you can of course get college loans, all you have to do is be poor and graduate from high school. Beyond that, simply figure out where you'll be in 8 years by military then college versus straight college. Here's a hint: Either way you'll probably still be in debt.

Beyond that, I would say the current military is only for people who have serious ... issues and can't survive in the real world.

It shouldn't be that way. The idea of having pride in serving your country is nice. But actually serving in the U.S. military quickly dispelled me of that idea.

There was no pride. Only shame at being some worthless grunt in an ugly costume.

It was like I had committed some crime and this was my punishment.

I think they need to learn to treat people with common decency and respect. Until then, I hope nobody ever joins again.<hr></blockquote>

--I can't believe I just read this. This is SO not true for all situations. If you're a grunt, yes, you're not going to have all those opportunities to attend college and get a degree. However, you shouldn't lead Secular Elation to believe that this is the case for all situations in the military.
--As for being in debt; How do you figure? I payed $100 a month for 1 year, and now I have $20,000 for college! Not only that, I have the college fund to help pay. I am not paying a thing, except cost of books.
--As for not being able to survive in the real world, I laugh at your remark. I am serving my country because I've taken for 20 years. Now I feel it's my obligation to give something back. Not everyone feels this way though. There are some people who regret joining(me included). When I E.A.S. in 2004, I'm going to have an associates degree in computer science, and hopefully a minor in economics. You can't really tell me it won't matter. I used to have an article where it gave the statistics of civilian companies hiring prior military. I feel really bad that I can't quote it, but it said it is much higher than it has ever been. If you put prior military on your resume, along with a degree, you're set! The company will realize that you can commit to something, and you have the discipline to do your job. I know I sound like a recruiter, but this really is the case.
--As for the ugly costume, I kind of like our new digital cammies. Ha ha. :D

--I agree with emphryio when he says there is no similarities between officers and enlisted. I am glad I am enlisted, because some of the younger officers here get absolutely no respect. However, the prior enlisted officers get all the respect in the world.

DB_Hunter

February 17, 2002, 02:02 PM

[quote]Originally posted by FaithNoMore:
--I really dislike comments like this, not matter how true they can be sometimes.<hr></blockquote>

It doesn't matter if you like or dislike the comments - the fact remains that it is USUALLY very true. I remember when the the idea of sending a boy in to the Army would "make a man out of him." The implication is that you cannot be a man without miliary service, or more specifically, the INDIVIDUAL being talked about cannot become a "real man."

One of the problems seen in WWI was that the soldier saw the other side a human - at one instance Allied and German soldier played soccer in no man's land one Christmas day. When they were forced to kill, their psyches could not handle it. The result has had a lot of names in the past century - battle fatigue, shell shock, post-traumatic stress disorder... The individual comes to think of themselves as being a murderer because they killed someone else. Their personal moral code does not make the allowance for war - to kill another is murder.

So, once the problem was recognized by militaries around the world, training programs began to incorporate the idea of training their soldier to be killers, not just to march well. Targets went from being bulls-eyes to silouettes of men (Yes, target size vs. distance training, too).

Don't get me woring - the training is the RIGHT way to create a good soldier. That that's the point: you have to CREATE a good solder, because they aren't just born that way. You teach them how to think the "right" way, how to fight, how to survive, how to win. In the end, the person who comes out is never the same as they were entering - some are changed more, some are changed less, but the training stays with them.

[quote]My friends tell me the same thing. The way I look at it; they are a bunch of whining pussies that are afraid to try something different. Something CHALLENGING.<hr></blockquote>

Don't give me that crap. I'm not that old, but I've lived more in that time than most Americans twice my age. I've never been one to back down from a challenge, even if my life was in danger. I merely object to throwing my life away on a useless exercise. I'm sure that hiking from McMurdo Station to Amundsen-Scott Base is a challenge as well, but not something I'd do just because some said "I triple-dog-dare you!" Next summer, I'm taking my brother to climb Kilimanjaro.

When I work with others, I give the proper respect to others on the team, and expect to receive the same. I do not need a shouting, red-faced troglodyte who drinks rocket fuel and shits flames to make references as to the promiscuity of my mother, comments about my preferences for bedmates of the same sex, or about how I appear to be more feminine than his 12 year-old ballerina daugher, all in an effort to run a 12-mile hump in seven seconds less than yesterday.

[quote]Call me strange, but I was never brainwashed. Not even in boot-camp. If someone "attempts to modify the way you think", don't let them. Silence is golden, my friend. <hr></blockquote>

Boot camp? That's just the start... That, and most people have no idea they are being brainwashed. Scientologists are quote good at it - shouting at recuits to provoke reactions, staring contests, etc. The suckers get carried along until they reach the high levels, but even when confronted with utter drek, they STILL believe it. UFO cultists of various stripes are brainwashed the same way. Heaven's Gate wasn't a rational ideaology, yet a bunch of people killed themselves over it.

The Cold War was another good example - "Reds" were bad in the West, and "Capitalists pigs" were the evil enemy for socialists of all types. Both sides indoctrinated their populations and militaries with propoganda about the other side. The Russians were just as afraid of China as they were of the US. The LAST thing that the Russians wanted was a world-wide communist revolution - headed by the Chinese!

In any case, it is the realization that someone is attempting to brainwash you that keeps it from happening. When you understand what someone is doing to you, and WHY they are doing it, you can counteract it. But for the the vast majority of people, they succumb to the peer pressure in such groups. I've taught my brother well, and he understands the techniques, the little tricks and mind games, the sexual tension and frustrations that are rechanneled to that the officers want. Because he knows, he can play along, watch the others, and know that they cannot change him more than he will allow. He understands the root of it, and that give him an edge that no one else there has.

DB

[Edited because I used html insead of UBB code}

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: DB_Hunter ]

Sakpo

February 17, 2002, 02:31 PM

Secular Elation,

If you are a pacifist then you shouldn't join the military. Militaries exist for two primary reasons: to threaten others with violence and to engage in violence. Every member of the military is in some way helping to kill when the killing starts. This looks like a time when the American military is probably going to be seeing a lot of use(the war on terror, the Taiwan situation, etc). I would say it's pretty inaccurate to describe "most" humanists, atheists, agnostics, etc as pacifists. I'm sure many are though, you seem to be one of them. There are other ways to earn money for college, working in the non military world might be your best option, as well as getting a loan.

Or, I know next to nothing about it, so maybe this is crap advice, but have you considered the National Guard? You would be a lot less likely to be shipped off outside the country (though this does happen occasionally).

Edited to add:

Don't buy into that "there are no atheists in foxholes" myth.
-----
I have no military experience whatsoever, but based on the documentaries I've watched and the people who have gone to boot camps whom I've spoken with, the entire point is basically to brainwash the people in a minor way. That's why they're designed so that physically most people can get through them relatively easily, the real point is to change how people think and react To change ordinary civilians into people willing to kill and die. That's why they go for younger people.

The moment people are in boot camps they lose their personal artifacts, get dressed up the same as everybody else, have their cut off. They're all made to look the same. The older recruits are made the "squad(or whatever) leaders." On the surface this is because the younger might respect them more or whatever. I'm pretty sure this is because it means they'll be put under even more scrutiny than the others, since it's harder to resocialize older people.

Throughout the entire boot camp the recruits are rewarded for "good" behavior(different than good behavior outside the military) and punished for bad. The recruits are cut off from the outside world. People who fail are humiliated and cut off from the group. The group is nurtured to become more and more aggressive and to follow orders like fanatics.

Of course these techniques won't work on somebody who understands them for the most part, or is intelligent and really individualistic, but to get through those people at least have to feign being changed.

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Sakpo ]

FaithNoMore

February 17, 2002, 04:22 PM

I feel my post might have been taken out of context, so I will clarify. But first....

DB_Hunter,
I gather from your posts that you have not gone through the military. I really love how you know so much about it, yet have not experienced it first hand. You can have all the knowledge in the world about a branch of service, but without experiencing it, it's useless.

[quote]DB_Hunter : I could have gone military - but I don't care for people yelling in my face. I also don't care for the brainwashing involved in basic training - my mind is my own, and I will not let another attempt to modify the way I think. The JROTC commander at my high school kept pestering me to join, and after I graduated, told me that I could have gone on and been corps commander for the district - I let my brother do that instead. I've got more of a paramilitary bent myself. <hr></blockquote>

--Coulda, woulda, shoulda. I hear this more often than not. I COULD HAVE gone military, but... Many people have stories like this, and no one cares to hear of them. Especially people who are actively supporting your country.
--I feel very badly for the brother you speak of. Someone like you filling his head with the "brainwashing tactics" will only dig him into a deeper hole. I have friends who are joining, and I explain to them what the drill instructors will do to force reactions/emotions out of them. The reason I can give helpful hints like this is because I spent 13 weeks of hell at Parris Island. Once you try it, you can speak of how people get brainwashed. Don't get me wrong; it happens. But not as much as you are leading everyone to believe.

--Your mislead stereotypes shows all of us who have gone through it that you in fact, know very little. No disrespect of course.

--I agree that someone who is strong-minded will not succumb to the tactics set forth by your drill instructors/ drill sergeants. But to place a generalized category of young teenagers into your brainwashing theory is absurd.

--The military you speak of so loosely is the only thing keeping terror out of our back yard, so show some respect. I love when people put down the very thing protecting them.

--To anyone/everyone who is considering of joining the military, I would recommend avoiding statements made by those who "think" they know, but in all actuality have no idea what it's like. I know some of the prior servicemen on here can back me up on the feeling of these statements.

--I will close with a question... If you had to protect your house by getting a dog, would you rather have
1.- A dog who is timid, and is afraid of protecting you, but still loves you

OR

2.- A fearless animal not afraid to kill, and would do anything to protect you.

--So the next time you feel like criticizing your protectors, think of this question.

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: FaithNoMore ]

Megatron

February 17, 2002, 05:00 PM

[quote]Originally posted by FaithNoMore:

--Your mislead stereotypes shows all of us who have gone through it that you in fact, know very little. No disrespect of course.

--I agree that someone who is strong-minded will not succumb to the tactics set forth by your drill instructors/ drill sergeants. But to place a generalized category of young teenagers into your brainwashing theory is absurd.

--The military you speak of so loosely is the only thing keeping terror out of our back yard, so show some respect. I love when people put down the very thing protecting them.

--To anyone/everyone who is considering of joining the military, I would recommend avoiding statements made by those who "think" they know, but in all actuality have no idea what it's like. I know some of the prior servicemen on here can back me up on the feeling of these statements.<hr></blockquote>

Spoken perfectly, and I agree 100%.

- Archangel
Active duty USAF

Megatron

February 17, 2002, 05:01 PM

[quote]Originally posted by turtonm:
Secular Elation, I think a lot of us thought about joining the military at your age. Give it some time. It may just be a phase.<hr></blockquote>

Hope this doesn't come off the wrong way, but..

What the hell was that supposed to mean?

Megatron

February 17, 2002, 05:09 PM

I noticed a lot of talk on the "Brainwashing" issue of military indoctrination.

I have one word for it: Bullshit.

Think of it more as a bit of fraternity hazing that you must endure to wear the uniform. It doesn't last long, and it's not life-changing at all. Just shut up and color for 6-10 weeks and move on with your life. I did. Nothing's changed, except I've learned a little since then about how the world works.

Today makes exactly 4 years I've been in, and I know for damn sure I haven't been brainwashed. I still live and think like I always have - I've just learned to play the games. All you have to do is leave yourself at home when you go to work.

Ask anyone... nearly every job out there is about the same.

FaithNoMore

February 17, 2002, 08:45 PM

I've noticed it's easy for someone to take away someone else's thought/reason by simply saying "you're brainwashed". To be honest, all I can really do is laugh at the ones who haven't experienced military life, but still feel they know about it. Granted, JROTC is great experience, but it is NOT military life. There is no leeway on this statement.

Archangel, I totally agree...took the thoughts out of my head. Congrats on today being your 4 year mark!!! You should feel proud.

Semper Fidelis -- FaithNoMore

copernicus

February 17, 2002, 09:25 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Secular Elation:
But as a secular humanist, would it be anti-humanistic to join something that is subject to involvement with violence and war? You see, I have no interest to join the military for violent reasons, but for a sense of duty and for financial aid for college.
<hr></blockquote>

Secular Elation, I would not disparage a career in the military. Clearly, that is one way to give service to your country. Moreover, I do not think that atheists are necessarily more "pacifist" than anyone else, and you shouldn't try to answer this very personal question on the basis of what you think "secular humanists" should do.

Personally, I am more inclined to pacifism, and I don't believe that I could ever join the military. (I was a registered conscientious objector during the Vietnam war.) I could not willingly put myself in a position where I would have to harm other people, except in pure self-defense, and I cannot rationalize joining an organization that might obligate me to kill people.

During the Vietnam war, American males were not given the opportunity to choose alternative service over military service unless they could convince a local draft board, state draft board, or presidential draft board that they qualified as a "conscientious objector". (I succeeded at the Presidential level, and had my draft card symbollically "signed" by Richard Nixon.) Many people with your misgivings were forced to participate in a war that they did not believe in. At one point, young men were actually drafted into the marines (normally, a voluntary service) because there were not enough volunteers. In a few cases, navy personnel were even impressed into land combat roles, again because of a shortage of regular infantry.

If you really feel uncomfortable with the idea of military combat, then I would counsel you to forget the GI education benefits. Look into the <a href="http://www.peacecorps.gov" target="_blank">Peace Corps</a> and <a href="http://www.americorps.gov" target="_blank">Americorps</a>. Those services were created for humanitarian purposes, and they will have as profound an impact on your life as military service, and perhaps a more enriching impact.

DB_Hunter

February 17, 2002, 10:22 PM

[quote]Originally posted by FaithNoMore:
I gather from your posts that you have not gone through the military. I really love how you know so much about it, yet have not experienced it first hand. You can have all the knowledge in the world about a branch of service, but without experiencing it, it's useless.<hr></blockquote>

As part of my education, I've had to study military thought and strategy thoughout history. I've had to listen to more long, boring lectures on the evolution of tactics more times than I care to even think about (and then get yelled at not paying attention while she went over the same damned topic again). I've watched raw recuits their first day at base and interviewed drill instructors as to the rationale behind their techniques. I've had to read old books on Napoleonic army management, compare and contrast them to previous examples from Engligh (Royal and Commonwealth) and Bourbon militaries, understand how they evolved into modern techniques, and extrapolate possible directions for the next 40 years. I watch and learn - and THAT'S my job. I document information, and I learn as much as I can from as many people as I can. Then, I make preliminary analyses before I pass the information along to someone else to work on.

I'm a desk puke - I've had a gun pointed at my face, and it wasn't something I felt like pursuing as a career option. I've still got the 7.72mm round that dug a hole in front of my face as a reminder of why I like sitting behind a computer, working 18-hour days. While I was eating dirt, I decided that while I disliked dying, what I hated even more was sending people I was responsible for to their deaths, even for a necessary cause. I'm not afraid of death - I'm afraid of sending other to their deaths.

[quote]Especially people who are actively supporting your country.<hr></blockquote>

Point of order - this is not my country. But that does not mean that I wish for it to be destroyed.

I think you believe I'm attacking the US military - I have nothing but respect for the armed forces of this country, and I do not disparage them. I made the point that this training was necessary to create a modern, effective fighting force.

[quote]I feel very badly for the brother you speak of. Someone like you filling his head with the "brainwashing tactics" will only dig him into a deeper hole.<hr></blockquote>

Actually, he's doing quite well. Something that he also learned was that every person's experience is going to be different - there are parallels, but you have to judge the merits of everything you are told though the filter of what you experience in life. Some things I've told him he knows don't apply there. Some things stand out from the background because he has learned to observe and see connections. He is my brother, not my clone, and I am not trying to live my life through him - he has succeeded on his own merits, and failed because of his own errors. I help only then he asks for it.

[quote]I have friends who are joining, and I explain to them what the drill instructors will do to force reactions/emotions out of them. The reason I can give helpful hints like this is because I spent 13 weeks of hell at Parris Island.<hr></blockquote>

What do you think Scientologists do? Check out
<a href="http://www.xenu.net" target="_blank">Operations Clambake</a> for detailed descriptions on techniques used by the CoS on their new recruits. They do what you did for years at a time in cases - wiht a lot less nutrition that you got.

[quote]Don't get me wrong; it happens. But not as much as you are leading everyone to believe.<hr></blockquote>

Every person is different, and it affects different people to different degrees. Those that understand it and can deal with it are affected the least (or not at all).

Stereotypes are lovely things - there are always many people who break them. Techs and medics go through relatively little - and there are few people I have more respect for than a medic who rushes into a firefight without a gun, trying to save the life of an injured rifleman.

[quote]Your mislead stereotypes shows all of us who have gone through it that you in fact, know very little. No disrespect of course.<hr></blockquote>

None taken. I do now know of your personal experiences, and vice versa. Neither of us can rightfully take offense at the ignorance of the other. At best, we can both say, "This is what I've seen and been though that makes me believe this is true."

[quote]I agree that someone who is strong-minded will not succumb to the tactics set forth by your drill instructors/ drill sergeants. But to place a generalized category of young teenagers into your brainwashing theory is absurd.<hr></blockquote>

Ah. My appologies - I should have made this VERY clear, and I did not. My comment as to JROTC was that the instructor thought I was prime military material, and that had I gone that track, I would have made an excellent officer. I certainly did not mean that JROTC had anything like brainwashing - learning to march doesn't even come close. My brother is in fact now at Texas A&M University in the Corps of Cadets - A&M was basically a military academy before it went coed.

[quote]The military you speak of so loosely is the only thing keeping terror out of our back yard, so show some respect. I love when people put down the very thing protecting them.<hr></blockquote>

Funny... Terrorism is something else I had to learn a lot about. It's actually the CIA, NSA, and FBI that do a more more to keep terrorists out of the country, and they're civilians. I work with the FBI on a national infrastructure protection program - it's only been in the last month that any information we get has been from military sources.

Again, I do not disparage the military - I've got a crazy jarhead for a friend who I trust with my life. His life is the Marines is fine for him, and I see that changes in his life. But I cannot not blind myself to conditions that may be unpleasant, even if necessary.

The worst part is that you think I'm attacking the military for using such techniques - even if you say that it happens "sometimes." I'm say, quite specifically, that it is necessary, and that those who go through training and understand what is happening to them will ride it out mentally unchanged. It's a "know before you go" rather than a "Oh, no! The baby-killers are going to make you one of them!"

[quote]I know some of the prior servicemen on here can back me up on the feeling of these statements.<hr></blockquote>

[quote]--I will close with a question... If you had to protect your house by getting a dog, would you rather have... So the next time you feel like criticizing your protectors, think of this question.<hr></blockquote>

A strawman. My house is not a nation - I cannot have a trade embargo with my neighbor, nor declare war on him and annex that new pool he just put in. When I have a problem with criminal action, I call the police and allow them to handle it. If the alarm system does not scare them away, I am responsible for the defense of my home. I would not send a dog to its possible death if there would be a way to avoid it - I can shoot back to protect everyone under my roof.

Again, criticizing the military is not a crime, and the military is not a perfect machine without faults and unpleasantries. I don't recall stating that brainwashing of recruits was a great criminal act worth of Joseph Goebbels himself. The point I've tried to make what was if you understand what's going on, you can be one of those that it has no effect on.

DB

Krieger

February 18, 2002, 12:36 AM

Its not that I'm opposed to killing or anything.
I'm just too lazy to join the military!

- Krieger, the high school senior.

Sakpo

February 18, 2002, 12:55 AM

Disclaimer:

I'm a complete wuss who probably couldn't make it through one of those fake bootcamps for troubled teens held in an elementry school gym for 3 hours on the Sally show.

Archangel, have you served in another branch besides the USAF? The Air Force boot camp is known to be the most mild because the least amound of resocializatation is required.
I'm not disparaging it at all, the Air Force simply does not need a as harsh a boot camp as say, the USMC does. Once again, I am not trivializing the Air Force or its members. The USAF people I've talked to about boot camp (only a couple) say that essentially their boot camp was to get them in good physical shape, learn the ranks, learn how to function day to day in the military, etc. Most Air Force recruits don't need to be turned into harsh soldiers though.
---
The fact is that all modern militaries aim to resocialize(I think "brainwash" may be too harsh a word) their recruits and all use fairly similiar tactics. This is required for a modern military to function. This is not to insult servicemen and women or their organizations. It's a simple fact. The recruits must be changed in such a way as to kill, regard the enemy as less than fully human, and ultimatly be willing to die. And it works on a good number.

Megatron

February 18, 2002, 09:28 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Sakpo:
Archangel, have you served in another branch besides the USAF?<hr></blockquote>

No, and the AF was my service of choice mainly because I knew what to expect. My uncle was also AF in the late 70's.

 [quote]The Air Force boot camp is known to be the most mild because the least amound of resocializatation is required.<hr></blockquote>

Absolutely true. Resocialization is a good word, BTW.

 [quote]I'm not disparaging it at all, the Air Force simply does not need a as harsh a boot camp as say, the USMC does.<hr></blockquote>

USMC, from what I've heard (from Marines, not from outside sources) has less mind games, but tons more physical and combat readiness training, with about the same level of "anal-retentive nonsense". The biggest difference, however, is the MC bootcamp being twice as long as that for the AF. More burnout factor, more resocialization, and a lot more wielding of discipline. They need people who are ready at any time to drop everything and kill.

The Air Force has no such requirement. We primarily operate high technology and run communications systems. It's extroardinarily rare to see any AF personnel (except combat pilots) anywhere near front lines.

 [quote]Once again, I am not trivializing the Air Force or its members. The USAF people I've talked to about boot camp (only a couple) say that essentially their boot camp was to get them in good physical shape, learn the ranks, learn how to function day to day in the military, etc. Most Air Force recruits don't need to be turned into harsh soldiers though.<hr></blockquote>

That's it exactly. Been there, did that, no big deal. However, I do admit that we have it the easiest.

 [quote]The fact is that all modern militaries aim to resocialize(I think "brainwash" may be too harsh a word) their recruits and all use fairly similiar tactics. This is required for a modern military to function. This is not to insult servicemen and women or their organizations. It's a simple fact. The recruits must be changed in such a way as to kill, regard the enemy as less than fully human, and ultimatly be willing to die. And it works on a good number. <hr></blockquote>

Resocialize, again, is a good word to describe the process. Brainwashing only works on the extremely impressionable (children, mainly) and the weak-minded. You may be changed by your indoctrination into military service, but even the marines and navy (longest boot camps) recruits fresh out of training still usually think for themselves at the same level they did before enlisting. The only thing that's different is they are edgy for a while around people who outrank them.

It just takes a while to learn how to play the games.

ohwilleke

February 18, 2002, 09:56 AM

Secular Elation: Others have said it, I will too, the military is not the place to be non-violent. Some members of the military are more personal about it than others, but that doesn't make the people who get killed any less dead.

You are much less likely to end up dead in the air force and navy, if there is a war, however. Its the guys in the ground war who (on a percentage basis) end up dead.

If you are ready for college now and simply can't afford it otherwise, go to an inexpensive state school and take out loans.

If you seriously want to be in the military and are ready for college (doesn't sound like you, but who knows), I'd recommend ROTC rather than enlisting as a grunt. The total amount of time involved is about the same, just in the reserve order of miltary service and college. And, given a choice between an enlistment as an office and an enlistment as a grunt, I think the choice ought to be pretty easy.

Signing up directly for the military is for those who (1) don't have a problem with using violence when necessary, and (2) are not ready for college right out of HS and feel that they would benefit more if they had some time to grow up first.

Incidentally, professors love people who go to college after the military, because they are more mature, but it does make it harder to fit into the social part of college, which is also important, and many abandon going to college after having been out on their own for a few years, worked at jobs with some responsibility, and learned some skills that they could provide for themselves with.

FaithNoMore

February 18, 2002, 06:48 PM

[quote]DB_Hunter: As part of my education, I've had to study military thought and strategy thoughout history. I've had to listen to more long, boring lectures on the evolution of tactics more times than I care to even think about (and then get yelled at not paying attention while she went over the same damned topic again). I've watched raw recuits their first day at base and interviewed drill instructors as to the rationale behind their techniques. I've had to read old books on Napoleonic army management, compare and contrast them to previous examples from Engligh (Royal and Commonwealth) and Bourbon militaries, understand how they evolved into modern techniques, and extrapolate possible directions for the next 40 years. I watch and learn - and THAT'S my job. I document information, and I learn as much as I can from as many people as I can. Then, I make preliminary analyses before I pass the information along to someone else to work on.

I'm a desk puke - I've had a gun pointed at my face, and it wasn't something I felt like pursuing as a career option. I've still got the 7.72mm round that dug a hole in front of my face as a reminder of why I like sitting behind a computer, working 18-hour days. While I was eating dirt, I decided that while I disliked dying, what I hated even more was sending people I was responsible for to their deaths, even for a necessary cause. I'm not afraid of death - I'm afraid of sending other to their deaths. <hr></blockquote>

--But have you experienced the military?

[quote]DB_Hunter: None taken. I do now know of your personal experiences, and vice versa. Neither of us can rightfully take offense at the ignorance of the other. At best, we can both say, "This is what I've seen and been though that makes me believe this is true." <hr></blockquote>

--Wouldn't this be considered an assumption? Just curious.

[quote]DB_Hunter: Funny... Terrorism is something else I had to learn a lot about. It's actually the CIA, NSA, and FBI that do a more more to keep terrorists out of the country, and they're civilians. I work with the FBI on a national infrastructure protection program - it's only been in the last month that any information we get has been from military sources. <hr></blockquote>

--When I say terror, I don't mean to only include terrorism. I should've specified.

--DB_Hunter, on a personal note, I'm just curious what country you reside.

--I definitely like the "resocializing" word better. But think about it...as a Corporal, let me tell you that you can't get a damn thing accomplished if everyone is on - what we in the Corps say - "own f*cking program". It just doesn't work. The job of the drill instructors is to mold someone who can play as a team. Not someone who blindly follows orders, as it was stated earlier I believe.

[quote]Archangel: USMC, from what I've heard (from Marines, not from outside sources) has less mind games, but tons more physical and combat readiness training, with about the same level of "anal-retentive nonsense". The biggest difference, however, is the MC bootcamp being twice as long as that for the AF. More burnout factor, more resocialization, and a lot more wielding of discipline. They need people who are ready at any time to drop everything and kill. <hr></blockquote>

--Oh my oh my...No, definitely NOT less mindgames. I don't doubt any branch of the service's training, but I have to disagree with this one...

Semper Fidelis... FaithNoMore

Blake

February 18, 2002, 08:08 PM

IMO, Secular Elation, there's another large reason not to serve in the military. From what I've read of U.S. history, its armed forces have functioned almost exclusively as a tool of conquest rather than defense. Instead of serving your country, you'll be serving a small group of unscrupulous politicians & the narrow interests that support them, maintaining our worldwide empire-on-the-cheap.

I don't think this is a particularly tendentious analysis (though it may not be widely shared), but definitely something important to consider & investigate while you contemplate joining up.

Blake

FaithNoMore

February 18, 2002, 09:36 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Bill the Cat:
IMO, Secular Elation, there's another large reason not to serve in the military. From what I've read of U.S. history, its armed forces have functioned almost exclusively as a tool of conquest rather than defense. Instead of serving your country, you'll be serving a small group of unscrupulous politicians & the narrow interests that support them, maintaining our worldwide empire-on-the-cheap.

I don't think this is a particularly tendentious analysis (though it may not be widely shared), but definitely something important to consider & investigate while you contemplate joining up.

Blake<hr></blockquote>

--LOL.....ROFLMAO

Semper Fidelis - FaithNoMore

Illithid

February 18, 2002, 11:05 PM

Every recruiter in our hs had a go at me when they saw my ASVAB tests. But I'm a concientious objectioner... I believe it's immoral for other people to try to kill me.

I don't think I'd have much trouble killing others if necessary... hope I never have to find out.

I have a high respect for soldiers in our military, and might actually have joined up, but at the time, they had a policy of not wanting fags.

DB_Hunter

February 18, 2002, 11:14 PM

[quote]Originally posted by FaithNoMore:
But have you experienced the military?[qb]<hr></blockquote>

Not the US military. But to say that I have not had "military experience" would not be quite truthful, as well.

[quote][qb]Wouldn't this be considered an assumption? Just curious.<hr></blockquote>

I would not consider it as such. When you see the your neighbor leave for work at 7am every weekday morning, and return at 6pm each evening, you create a pattern of expectations. When he suddenly returns at 11am, raving like a lunatic, you expect that something is out of the ordinary, as he usually does not behave that way. The data seems to indicate that there was a disruption in his day - the assumption comes only when you say that it must be because he got his dumb ass fired for incompetence, without having evidence of it.

[quote]DB_Hunter, on a personal note, I'm just curious what country you reside.<hr></blockquote>

I currently reside in the US. However, I had citizenship in several countries now - none of which the US accepts. Funny, that... I have, however, lived and actually studied overseas in several locations, so I do have some international perspective.

Funny story - in my hometown in Poland, the military had tried to draft me for several years after my 18th birthday. They kept sending a draft officer around to my "official" residence to drag me kicking and screaming away. When I went back in 2000 for a visit, I had to spend a day filling out paperwork and playing nice. I just had to say I was a student in the US, fill out a few forms, and I was fine.

They had also lost some of my records and my father's records when they went over to computers for most of their stuff in the early '90s. Dad's birth, school, and military records were just gone, as were my birth records... However, the military still kept up with them, which is why they kept hunting for me. Dad was almost arrested in 1999 because the old passport number he had wasn't in the computer, and they thought it was a fake! When the customs officer asked for my Polish passport, I started to tell him my sad tale, and just when I was getting to the part about Dad's problems getting in, and my info being attached to his, the officer just passed me back my paper and told me to get out...

Of course, they were quite a bit more curious when I was leaving... with a large broadsword and six litres of homemade wine :D . Nothing quite like having the customs officer tell you to pull out a 4-foot sword in the middle of an airport lobby - with about a thousand pairs of eyes suddenly looking at YOU! My cousin was in stitches...

[quote]I definitely like the "resocializing" word better. But think about it...as a Corporal, let me tell you that you can't get a damn thing accomplished if everyone is on - what we in the Corps say - "own f*cking program". It just doesn't work.<hr></blockquote>

Of course. I don't recall stating otherwise. Again, my point has always been "understand what is going on around you." That is is the way it is done, because that's the more effective way there is of training a soldier - for now. I never even really made a moral call about it - to me, it's a necessary part of the training.

[quote]The job of the drill instructors is to mold someone who can play as a team. Not someone who blindly follows orders, as it was stated earlier I believe.<hr></blockquote>

I don't recall having stated that... Some nations DO expect automata in their services, and individuality and independent action apart from the battle plan are severely punished. The USMC highly values personal action when necessary = too much money is spend on a rifleman to make them THAT expendable just so the plan on paper looks neat.

DB

FaithNoMore

February 19, 2002, 10:33 AM

DB_Hunter,

--That is a pretty "funny" story. I can only imagine seeing someone pull out a broadsword in the middle of the airport. I'd probably start laughing.

[quote]quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The job of the drill instructors is to mold someone who can play as a team. Not someone who blindly follows orders, as it was stated earlier I believe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't recall having stated that... Some nations DO expect automata in their services, and individuality and independent action apart from the battle plan are severely punished. The USMC highly values personal action when necessary = too much money is spend on a rifleman to make them THAT expendable just so the plan on paper looks neat
<hr></blockquote>

--I didn't mean just you, I was stating in general. I think this whole "discussion" was a big misunderstanding...

DB_Hunter

February 19, 2002, 08:52 PM

[quote]Originally posted by FaithNoMore:
That is a pretty "funny" story. I can only imagine seeing someone pull out a broadsword in the middle of the airport. I'd probably start laughing.<hr></blockquote>

The officer thought it was an antennae from the image on the xray machine - I had packed it with the pommel vertical so it would fit. He got a strange look on his face when I told him what it was. Mom was returning with me at the time, and she started to laugh as well...

[quote]I didn't mean just you, I was stating in general. I think this whole "discussion" was a big misunderstanding...<hr></blockquote>

I think so as well. I guess the general opinion is "know what you're getting into." Hope that helps, SE.

DB

4th Generation Atheist

February 21, 2002, 07:09 AM

Secular Elation, being as how this is about your decision, I have to point out that while you don't wish to offend other humanists (a noble sentiment), you're going to have to because it's inevitable. Some humanists feel like those you have apparently contacted earlier, that joining the military is somehow wrong because it involves the necessity of going to war if that arises. Others feel it is every citizen's duty to serve in some capacity. Whichever way you choose, you'll step on someone's toes, so try not to step on your own.

As to the current "war" between FaithNoMore and DB_Hunter, I can't much take sides in it. I have health problems and am now too old to join anyway. But it does illustrate one point: if patriotic service is your goal, there is more than one way: FNM is in the military and DBH is in the FBI, for starters. There are also other elements of the vast civil service, including teaching positions; but these would be better for after you finish school. There are also new security positions, as I'm sure you well know, related to terrorism. Plenty of respectable service across the board.

But don't join the military "just" for school money. People who join just for money have been a nuisance since the Civil War, according to all I hear; not least because money is at best a poor motivation for doing anything, even if you need it. There are other sources and ideas if that's all you want.

If you're really interested in ROTC, say, of all the college students I've spoken to (as a graduate assistant I heard from many) the ones most satisfied seemed to be Air Force ROTC. Most of them were career and thought the opportunities there were excellent. But be sure you want to go before you start, becuase it's hard to "back out" honorably, as I mentioned before.

DB_Hunter

February 21, 2002, 08:54 AM

I'd have hoped to have posted my last on this thread, but I really needed to clear something up:

[quote]Originally posted by 4th Generation Atheist:
As to the current "war" between FaithNoMore and DB_Hunter, I can't much take sides in it.<hr></blockquote>

Hehehe... I think that "war" is pretty much over. We'll agree to disagree based on our own experiences. All's good in the end.

[quote]FNM is in the military and DBH is in the FBI, for starters.<hr></blockquote>

Gotta nip that in the bud right now. I'm quite definitely NOT working FOR the FBI. I'm a security (technology) consultant who works occasionally WITH the federales on projects. I know I've always stated WITH and not FOR - they don't pay me. I just wanted to make that very clear so there'd be no misconceptions about that. Impersonating a federal officer is a BAD THING, and I wouldn't want someone to start an investigation over this.

For the record: I am not Fox Mulder - though I wouldn't mind Scully as a partner.. :D .

DB

wdog

February 21, 2002, 08:05 PM

I was in the navy for 4 years, except for the occasional idiot, I liked the job. I just was a teacher though at the nuclear power school, went to sea one day. My training was easy, and my job was 7:30 to 4:00 with an occasional overnight duty. My observation is that the military is a culture, like many other places have their own culture (IBM, Microsoft, ect.), and the best way to adapt in that culture was to just shut up and do a good job. It kept me happy, and my bosses liked me. I am very much more of an independent thinker than many non military types, that aspect of your personality is up to you. I don't believe brainwashing can work too well on critical thinking types, and I didn't really see it anyway.

What the military wants is people who will follow orders, the ones at the 'tip of the sword' especially. Special forces in particular are molded into a particular mindset, how could they not be with their round the clock training. I'm not convinced it is brainwashing so much as the conditioning that would be required to perform killing. I think we could all kill in the right situation, and a lot of people who have killed for the military now live a 'normal' existence. A brainwashed person is more like a religious person who can't break free of the ingrained beliefs. I just didn't observe that in the military, but then again i didn't spend a lot of time with the SEALS.

What I would tell a young person is that some people did well, others hated it. The ones that seemed to do well were what I would call people with the strength of perspective. They wouldn't take the BS so seriously, but they would do good work when it mattered. A lot of the BS factor comes down to the kind of people who are over you, some are good, some bad (that is same everywhere, not just the military). Sorry but that can be luck of the draw.

Also the career path I would advise is to enlist with the goal of becoming an officer. That way you can get some free education, even at some really decent civilian universities, spend some of your military time in school and by the time it is over maybe you will be within striking distance of that really nice 20 year retirement.

good luck

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Optics Guy ]

4th Generation Atheist

February 22, 2002, 10:07 AM

[quote]Originally posted by DB_Hunter:


Gotta nip that in the bud right now. I'm quite definitely NOT working FOR the FBI. I'm a security (technology) consultant who works occasionally WITH the federales on projects. I know I've always stated WITH and not FOR - they don't pay me. I just wanted to make that very clear so there'd be no misconceptions about that. Impersonating a federal officer is a BAD THING, and I wouldn't want someone to start an investigation over this.

DB<hr></blockquote>

I don't think anyone's likely to do that (though I understand CYA! ;) ) but thanks for the heads-up anyway. My mistake.

voltaire321

February 22, 2002, 11:10 AM

Like DB_Hunter at one point I worked with the FBI ( not for the FBI. I was a consultant twice removed, a contractor for a contractor for a contractor ). I really did not like it, and I wasn't even employed there. I couldn't imagine being in the armed forces. I think my personality type is not in any way, shape, or form compatible with people having absolute control over me. I mean, I really like being able to say "take this job and shove it" and then walking out the door. I think that in the army that is called "deserting your post" and you goto Levenworth (sp?) military prison.

There are some basic freedoms you give up when you join the armed forces, think long and hard about whether it's worth it.

Shaggy

February 27, 2002, 07:20 PM

As a former member of the Britsh Army (8 years) and a vet of Kosovo, Bosina and Northern Ireland... I had no major problems during my miltary service because I was (am) and atheist.

Yes I had "Atheist" on my dog-tags but we only wore them during active service (Kosovo etc). The Britsh Army was always tolerent of my beliefs (of lack thereof!!) and its was rarely an issue.

I was never forced to go to chruch, however I did attend services where War Veteran's where remembered and honoured. I went out of respect of these men and women who gave their lives so we can live in the freedom we enjoy.

When it came time to pray.... I closed my eyes and thought long and hard about what these people gave up, the thought of actually praying never entered my mind.

The military was a great experince for me personally. It changed me from a shy 17 year old boy into a confident 26 year old man. I enjoyed my service and would never discourage anyone from joining.... as long as they are commited.

Agnostic Journyman

March 1, 2002, 12:49 PM

S.E.,

But as a secular humanist, would it be anti-humanistic to join something that is subject to involvement with violence and war? You see, I have no interest to join the military for violent reasons, but for a sense of duty and for financial aid for college.

I can relate well to your situation. I was raised essentially free-thinker/agnostic/humanist, and I also struggled with this matter when I considered joining the military around your age. Looking back, I was kind of a split personality; part pacifist, part get-on-with-life-and-learn-a-job. Like warfare itself, it was a back and forth struggle. Practicality won out, and I joined the Navy.

Interesting how life events shape us. When I joined the Navy, I had seven months delayed entry. I was still able to lead a civilian life with civilian ideals up to the day I left for boot camp (thinking that would be more like summer camp than what it really was like. Similar to how I thought being in the Navy was just like any other job, only they paid me for the training, food, lodging, etc.)
I was involved with a bunch of held-over hippies trying to build a self sufficient community of underground houses...live off the land, get back to nature, all that happy stuff. I ended up after boot camp and "A" school in the engine room of a cruiser that had the capability to wipe that little community of pot smokers off the map with the click of a button.

Staring down the rails of our ship's missle launcher brought the reality of things home for me. The pot smoking underground house hobbits could cry all they want about how nukes are bad, nuke power is bad, etc., but the fact remained that missle launcher was REAL, and it wasn't going away.

Okay, that's just a hint of how the Nav affected my ideals (I ended up being a Christian fundamentalist toward the end of my service, but have since freed myself from that noise...a LONG story). Now for the practical side of military life. And I'll try to be brief. Don't join if you feel the moment you step off that bus when it rolls into boot camp, you feel you'll regret it for the rest of your life. Yeah, EVERYONE stepping off that bus feels that way when the company commander or DI is screaming his fool head off, but for most, the feeling passes. The guys who spend the next 3-6 years whining and bitching and griping about everything imaginable have the WORST time of things, and the military doesn't take much pity on them. Personally it was these guys that made my time in more difficult than it needed to be. I struggled as well, but finally conceded the best thing to do was buckle down and get on with things. After all, nobody held a gun to my head when I signed on the dotted line at the recruiter's office.

One more thing...kick butt on your ASVAB, if you decide to go for it. Get into a really good technical field, one that will translate well into civilian life, if you don't career military. Be advance-hungry. Don't listen to taunts from fellow shipmates or grunts or whatever about being a "lifer" or "Navy dog" or whatever. If you go in, make the best of it. That's all I'm saying. I didn't, and I find myself at forty wishing I had been more motivated. Slackers ain't very cool outside of high school (I'm reluctant to give them that status anywhere).

So that's my two bits. If you go Navy, have fun at Great Lakes, and don't let anyone send you running around for squeegee sharpeners, light bulb repair kits, or flagpole covers. What you REALLY want to do is ask for mail bouy watch when you get to your first ship. It's great duty. :D

SS

Coleman Smith

March 1, 2002, 09:11 PM

Saggy said,� The military was a great experience for me personally. It changed me from a shy 17 year old boy into a confident 26 year old man. I enjoyed my service and would never discourage anyone from joining.... as long as they are commited. �.

You and I have something in common in that I have never regreted the military.

Made 18 jumps.

Had a lot of fun.

Of course, I never got shot at or killed any one either.

At the young age many of us were likely to do most any thing. One of the guys in my unit wanted to jump an Air Force parachute because they were red and white and he thought they were pretty.

He volunteered for an equipment drop once and then �accidentally� fell out of the plane. Lost a strip but what the hell.

Guy that printed dog tags would not put the word atheist on may tags so I told him I was an agnostic. I had to spell it for him. Still got them from 1960 circa (tells may age)

Coleman Smith
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The assertion that the universe is surrounded in grape jelly is more credible than the assertion that we arethe immortal pets of some deity.

gravitybow

March 2, 2002, 03:30 PM

Secular Elation:

I was an Air Force officer and a flyer.
I graduated from the Air Force Academy and became a navigator/instructor navigator in the C-130 Hercules.

You want to be a pilot? Then you'll have to be an officer. Might I suggest looking into one of the service academies? Sounds like the Air Force Academy or the Naval Academy is what you may be interested in. I also applied to both when I was in high school, but I wanted Air Force since my dad had made a career there as an enlisted man.

As with anything, there are always pluses and minuses to consider, particularly when you are thinking about the military. For instance:

Pro: Four-year, all-expenses-paid education at a service academy
Con: People might shoot at you after graduation

Pro: Visit lots of countries, especially if you pick the right career
Con: Separation from family

Pro: Wear a cool uniform and get respect wherever you go
Con: Fly at all hours of the day and night and eat out of vending machines a lot

Pro: Command a multi-million dollar machine
Con: Sometimes they crash

Pro: Get to fly fast and close to the ground
Con: Might need to keep a supply of air-sickness bags handy

Pro: Job security
Con: Lose some freedoms

Oh, and don't worry: You will graduate with your intellect intact, i.e., you won't be "brainwashed." That term seems to be thrown around a lot by people who don't know much about the military. Or perhaps they merely fancy themselves as experts on being brainwashed.

At the very least, you should visit the websites for the <a href="http://www.usafa.af.mil" target="_blank">US Air Force Academy</a> and the <a href="http://www.usna.edu" target="_blank">US Naval Academy</a>. Note: the AF Academy link is being revised and may be down.

I could tell you more, but then I would have to hunt you down and kill you. (Oops! I forgot: I'm not brainwashed anymore.)

In all seriousness, SE, if you would like to talk about anything, please contact me by e-mail.

Secular Elation

December 2, 2003, 07:27 PM

It has been over a year and a half since I posted this thread. As it turns out, I am going to college right out of high school instead of joining the military. However, there is still the possibility that I could do service after I graduate. I'm majoring in chemistry, and perhaps as an officer I could be a nuclear engineer and work on a nuclear submarine.

Cipher Girl

December 2, 2003, 09:47 PM

Hi SE

I went into the Air Force right out of college in 1984. There was a recession and with a degree in Applied Math and little computer skills no one was really hiring. I went through Officer Training School (OTS) and after 3 months became a 90 day wonder (2nd lieutenant). I went in for the training (for computers) and because my family has a history being in the military. It was probably the best decision of my life.

I found that OTS was a lot of mind games. Only once did I have an instructor scream in in my face. It was all I could do not to let the gleam in my eye turn into a smile. ;) For the instructor was about my height (about 5 ft tall). OTS was really all about handling stress. They would give you too many tasks to complete in a day and you would have to concentrate on the tasks that were important and skimp on the rest.

About halfway through OTS, we had a guy flip out. He just could not handle the stress, locked himself in his room, and started trashing the furniture. The MPs tried to calm him down by talking to him, but he ignored them and would not unlock the door. It took a couple of guys from the hospital psych ward to come in and restrain him. They were afraid he would hurt himself or someone else. They hauled him out strapped to a gurney. It was scary seeing the blank look in his eyes, like he had retreated to somewhere else.

After a few days he was allowed to come back. He was getting out because of the breakdown. He seemed ok since the stress was removed. I think his family had really tried to push him into joining. I don't think anyone should join the military if they don't want to or feel they can't handle it.

I went in only to get training and to stay for 4 years, but found I really liked it. I spent a total of 9 years in the Air Force, only getting out when I was being promoted out of a technical job (Captain/programmer analyst) at Peterson AFB/Cheyenne Mtn to a section chief (Major) at Scott AFB. I would then only be doing reports, finances, contracts, and writing personnel reports. Yuck.

I though I was joining only because of the job training and experience, but ended up staying because I liked my jobs. Do what is best for you and don't worry about what others think. After all you will have to be the one to live with yourself. Good luck.

Lanakila

December 2, 2003, 09:48 PM

Kewl SE. I am a veteran of the USARMY 1982-87. The military is a culture and a job, that has its benefits as well as its hardships. I am frankly glad you aren't going in right now, as this war on terror doesn't appear to be going away soon. My hubby is a Chaplain in the Army and was deployed for the war. The toughest jarhead will crack when you have to do things that go against the human conscience of what is right, or wrong. Ethical dilemas are common in actual war. If and when you do decide to go in, being an officer is the best bet still, as its a different lifestyle, and more money does make life easier. If you go for an ROTC scholarship, you can get them to pay for a good portion of your college.

Yangja Isuko

December 3, 2003, 03:43 AM

In the Navy or Air Force, however, I would be a sailor or a pilot and I would not directly involve myself with the forms of violence that our military is subject to.

sooo a soldier on the ground killing 10 people with his machinegun would be more involved with violence than a pilot bombing 10.000 from the sky?

huh?

personally i'll quote George Carlin:

ANYONE....DUMB enough....to wanna be in the military....

should be let in.

Dark Jedi

December 3, 2003, 10:10 AM

I wanted to add a comment:

I have disparaged my years of service in the USMC a couple of times, but wanted to clear something up.

I loved it. I had fun, did things I could never do otherwise, saw places I would never have seen, met people I would never have met. Killed them. (Just kidding!)

I had my share of problems. Some I brought upon myself, others came to me unbidden. I would not have missed it, and would do it all over again.

It is often said in the Marines "Bitch about it all you want, so long as you bitch while performing the task given."

Secular Elation

December 3, 2003, 10:32 AM

sooo a soldier on the ground killing 10 people with his machinegun would be more involved with violence than a pilot bombing 10.000 from the sky?

No, they are both profoundly involved in violence.

But if I was in the service I would try to have a position that would avoid the direct use of violence--such as being a medic.

Lanakila

December 3, 2003, 11:00 AM

Many jobs in the military have little contact with combat ops. But look at that unit from Ft Bliss that Pvt Lynch was in. They were supply, and still had to get involved in combat. The military isn't a safe place to be until things calm down in the world, no matter what job you choose.

Sorry for acting like a mom, but SE you could be my son as I have a Freshman in HS right now, and hope if he does consider the miltary he goes to the Air Force Academy or something, and picks a safe job.

justwonder

December 3, 2003, 12:55 PM

I retired from the Navy last year with 24 years.
I had a great time, visited 20+ countries and met a lot of great people.
I still work around the Navy here in Virginia and could give you more info on the Nuclear Navy, just IM or email me.
Nuc's as we call them are a special breed, in fact Jimmy Carter was one.

Shake

December 4, 2003, 07:29 AM

Well, as others have mentioned here, there are plenty of "safe" jobs that will not put you into combat. I'm speaking as a USAF veteran of nearly 9 years. I was an atheist the whole time I was in, and had no confusion or moral dilemma as a result. My job was keeping the avionics working so that the aircraft could communicate with others and get to where they were going.

If you have an aversion to weapons in general, then you should know that all military members receive at least some basic small arms training. In the USAF it was the M-16. I was also trained on the M-9 Beretta as part of an augmentation program for the Security Forces (MPs for Army). Folks who regularly deployed would receive follow-up training either annually or every other year.

Please note that as a pilot, you would also receive small arms training (the M-9 again) since it's conceivable that your plane could be shot down in unfriendly territory and you might have to defend yourself. Pilots and aircrew members (on tankers and cargo planes) also have to attend survival school in case of such events. Also remember that the bad guys aren't going to take the time to find out that you're oppposed to violence if you've been shot down over their land.

Now I don't know you personally ... you might be an ideal pilot candidate, but when you said, "I'll just be a pilot ... " I felt the need to say that it's not that easy. There are very stringent requirements, physical, mental, etc. for becoming a pilot. Again, I'm not doubting that you might not be smart enough or fit enough, it's just not as simple all that.

Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide. Did you say you're in nuclear engineering? If you do well enough, the Navy will probably seek you out! I knew a girl in college, who was in AFROTC, and a Nuke E. student, and she was constantly being contacted by Navy personnel. "Are you sure you don't want to come to the Navy?" they'd ask.

Yangja Isuko: your insertion of that Carlin quote was offensive and uncalled for. There are lots of intelligent people serving in militaries around the world.