atheist private schools?

[Lady MacDuff]

Are there any specifically atheist private schools around? Not schools that just don't address religion at all, but schools that specifically teach atheism?

In light of the school voucher decision, I was just wondering...

[Autonemesis]

[quote]Originally posted by kstreet:
<strong>Are there any specifically atheist private schools around? Not schools that just don't address religion at all, but schools that specifically teach atheism?

In light of the school voucher decision, I was just wondering...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Teach atheism?

Teacher: Today we will not learn about God, and there will be a test.
Class: Awwwwwww!!!

It seems to me the attribute "doesn't address religion at all" qualifies it as atheist.

[Lady MacDuff]

I disagree there - if religious schools can teach "there is a god" then couldn't an atheist school teach "there is no god"? I am just wondering if there are any schools that specifically teach the atheist viewpoint without ignoring the issue altogether.

[Krieger]

[quote]Originally posted by kstreet:
<strong>I disagree there - if religious schools can teach "there is a god" then couldn't an atheist school teach "there is no god"? I am just wondering if there are any schools that specifically teach the atheist viewpoint without ignoring the issue altogether.</strong><hr></blockquote>That would kind of be like having a school that would teach "there are no werewolves."

I could understand having a humanist school. Personally, I think we just need to try and make the public schools better though.

[Lady MacDuff]

[quote] I could understand having a humanist school. Personally, I think we just need to try and make the public schools better though.<hr></blockquote>

I agree with you there 100%. But in cities where the public schools are failing, many parents feel they have no option but to send their kids to private religious schools, especially if there are no private secular options. They don't want to wait for the public schools to get better when their kids need a good school now.

I know there are lots of private secular schools out there, but there are just not as many as there are religious schools. The more secular private schools, the less voucher money will flow to the church schools.

I think a humanist school would be a great idea, to create other options for parents and kids that are now stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hmmm... How does one go about starting one of those?

[Krieger]

[quote]The more secular private schools, the less voucher money will flow to the church schools.
<hr></blockquote>I think we should strongly oppose "vouchers" though, they will only hurt an already mediocre public school system. This is coming from someone that went to private schools from kindergarten through 12th grade (13 years).

[AtlanticCitySlave]

To answer your question, no, there aren't any, at least as far as I know. In fact, it's sort of a vision of mine to see a school devoted to atheism in the future. I don't agree with the other posters here who say it's like teaching "there are no werewolves". An atheistic school would teach children along the lines of naturalistic observation, philosophy, mathematics, and basically everything taught to them now, only with added areas stressing philosophical thought and atheistic thought.

[Alonzo Fyfe]

[quote]Originally posted by AtlanticCitySlave:
<strong>In fact, it's sort of a vision of mine to see a school devoted to atheism in the future.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It has been an interest of mine as well.

Well, the "devoted to atheism" is a bit off.

This sounds like a line from somebody who is going to say "there is no God" even if there should be clear evidence of a God. It assumes an inappropriate (I think) assumption of infallibility.

Rather, I would say "devoted to truth" -- and will teach, among other things, why the level of evidence available suggests that "there is a God" is not true.

It will be devoted to the rational pursuit of truth. Students would learn about the scientific method -- how to generate and test a hypothesis. The would learn logic, and have lessons each day applying those principles to everything from commericals to political speeches -- as well as to astrology, psychic powers, and the like.

[Allkholollick]

Alonzo Fyfe wrote:

[quote] The would learn logic, and have lessons each day applying those principles to everything from commericals to political speeches -- as well as to astrology, psychic powers, and the like. <hr></blockquote>

That would be VERY nice. Lots of adults would benefit from classes like that.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Allkholollick ]</p>

[d'naturalist]

Welcome boys & girls, to the Wellington Freethought Academy. Hmmm, that sounds suitably Engligh and snobby. :p (I made the name up, so don't go askin' me if I went there! ;) I can only dream -- I'm a public school survivor. Ooops! I mean, graduate)

Personally, I like the idea of a small network of secular private schools, possibly with a homeschool affiliation program (meaning if you homeschool and sign up with the program, you can get books and supplies and tutoring help and a standardized curriculum that would prepare your child to attend the school at any point in their education and be right in step with their peers).

[Lady MacDuff]

Wellington Freethought Academy - good one!

So we have a name for our school (and a suitably snobby "private-sounding" one at that!) and a very general idea of curriculum (heavy on scientific method and critical thinking). Should the school also include a class called "Humanist Studies" to delve into humanist/atheist literature and history? And a community service program? I think these would both be good additions.

It is fun to dream of this - starting a school. But it might be a real possibility if we could get the backing of some big organizations. Really!

[Alonzo Fyfe]

For this type of project, I have always had bad feelings whenever somebody mentions "big contributors". Any contributor with sense invests in results.

I think it is more wise to consider doing what can be done with the resources available, rather than not doing what could be done with resources one can only imagine.

So, the question is: What can be done with the resources available?

Step 1: Determine the minimum legal obligations/barriers that would go into creating a free-thought school. Home schooling laws would be a significant benefit (though there may be additional legal barriers if the children one teaches are not one's own).

Step 2: Give some thought to the obligations to children above and beyond what would be required by the state -- such as protecting the children from predatory teachers -- and how to meet those obligations.

Step 3: Market-test the proposed school among free-thought organizations. How many parents would be interested? How many children would there be? How much would they be willing to pay? What would they be willing to pay for?

Step 4: Create a budget. Determine the shortfall in expenses that could not be covered by tuition.

Step 5; Seek donations to cover the shortfall.

Step 6: Create the school.


Note 1: One should not limit oneself to thinking about a standard Public School setup. One option would be to set up an evening school -- a class that meets once or twice per week to present age-appropriate instruction. (Young children can learn how to do fun experiments and reach conclusions, Middle-age children can learn the logical fallacies and basic propositional logic. Older children can learn Constitutional history, archaeology, and philosophy. If successful, such a school could then expand to include day classes. An evening school (or summer school) of this type would face far fewer legal barriers and restrictions, since those children would still be attending public school.

Note 2: Also, it may we wise to consider options other than free-thought academy, but also free-thought day care. Like the academy, the free-thought day care would have activities designed to stimulate the rational mind. During the summer and on weekends, parents with school-age children too young to stay home alone would have reason to make use of such a resource.

Note 3: Economies of scale would be generated by using the same resources for all three types of activity: day school, evening school, and day care. This will lower cost.

Note 4: If the school is effective, then it should be able to attract students from agnositic parents or those who are uncertain about religious matters, who place the quality of the children's education above spiritual matters. Again, this will allow the school to expand and further reduce marginal costs. As students win contests (e.g., mathematics competitions, science fairs), this will improve the prestige of the school and encourage contributions and attract customers.

Following this plan, a minimal school (evenings, weekends, and summer classes) can be set up at low cost and little regulation (though taking no shortcuts in protecting the children). It can be expanded from there to include day care, and then day classes. There can also be special one-time events (e.g., field trips) organized by the school and paid for by particpants (partially for education purposes, partially for marketing purposes -- to introduce people to the school). The next step would be to expand into regular day classes, and then to grow from there.

[AtlanticCitySlave]

It does not seem to me a school "devoted to truth" (such as the slogan might be) would work, since you would obviously have many people signing up who don't think what you are teaching is the truth, think what they think is the truth, etc., and it would be hard to see a project like that get off the ground especially considering people would from the getgo question the foundations of how you arrive at truth.

[Alonzo Fyfe]

[quote]Originally posted by AtlanticCitySlave:
<strong>It does not seem to me a school "devoted to truth" (such as the slogan might be) would work....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Certainly, there will be some disagreements. And those who disagreed would not be your customers. They, then, are free to create their own school, and try to take your customers away from you, if they feel strongly enough about it.

I think that a wise business would feed on disagreements to some extent. The school can hold mock debates, organizing students into teams in order to discuss the issue, focusing its lessons not on the conclusions reached, but on the methods used in defense of those conclusions.

Indeed, my point about the school being "dedicated to truth" is that the school would focus on the processes for justifying beliefs, rather than the beliefs themselves. It would teach logic, but would not assert that the logical method must conclude that God does not exist. It would teach the scientific method, but would not conclude that the scientific method must conclude that evolution is true.

And, yet, logic does not support the existence of God that the scientific method does support evolution. These are still contingent truths. We do not judge the adequacy of logic by its ability to prove that God does not exist. We judge the inadequacy of "God exists" by its inability to stand up to logical scrutiny.

[Ultimate Atheist]

Let me jump in here and say that I've been dreaming of a secular school to send my kids to. You have to be careful in deciding a name though. Any name that contains "Atheist", "Humanist" , or "Freethought" may attract unwanted attention. I don't know about other areas of the country but around here Christians think they have the right to do whatever they want and then they say they were doing God's work. I have heard Christians say that if you aren't a Christian you deserve to die. It seems harsh but its a reality in some places.

Planned parenting centers around here get attacked on a regular basis. Its so common now that they don't even mention the occurances on the news anymore. I think if you have a name that signals that its a building full of Atheists you might attract the same kind of attention. I don't want my kids getting screwed up by public schools but I also don't want them to have to walk through a picket line of foaming at the mouth religious zealots to get to class either.

Maybe it could be called "The Institute for Higher Learning" or maybe "Young Genius Institute". You could screen the students and the parents to keep christians out or at least have them consent to being taught your curriculum.

I'll be the first to sign my kids up for a school that actually spends time teaching them rather than worrying if they should pray and recite pledges all day. Atheists usually have higher IQs and interest in learning so that may be an advantage as well. I hated going to public schools and having a few morons in the back of the class slowing the rest of the class down. Public schools cater to the lowest common denominator. That's pathetic.


The Ultimate Atheist has spoken

[butswana]

There is a private school(K-4)opening in Indy this fall. I've read through all of thier literature, and cannot find one reference to religion. Most of the admin and faculty come from other private schools(St. this and St. that).
The cirriculum will be based on this:

<a href="http://www.coreknowledge.org/CKproto2/about/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.coreknowledge.org/CKproto2/about/index.htm</a>

seems secular so far. I intend to keep digging.

[Alonzo Fyfe]

[quote]Originally posted by Ultimate Atheist:
<strong>You have to be careful in deciding a name though.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, I quite agree. I mentioned the importance of protecting the children. It would be quite contrary to this concern to select a name that made them the target of bigotry and violence.

Ultimately, I would consider a very neutral name such as "The Thomas Jefferson Academy".

[Lady MacDuff]

The name of the school is obviously much less important than the curriculum. However, while I agree that we don't want to draw unwanted attention from religious groups, I think the name should at least hint that this is not your run-of-the-mill private school. Religious schools do not hide the fact that they are religious - hence all the "sacred heart of st. so-and-so's holy rosary" schools. The fact that our school would be secular and really really scholastically rigorous should be apparent in the name to attract parents. But again, what's in a name. If I started a school, I'd be happy to name it after the rich, godless philanthropist who gave me the money to for it.

[Ultimate Atheist]

Bill Gates is an atheist. Maybe someone should approach him. He has so much money now he's probably bored. The only thing he has left to do now is build monuments to himself. Perhaps if we name a school after him he will fund it. Anybody know how to get in touch with the git?

[crab juice]

I really like this idea. Maybe Ted Turner could be persuaded to cough up some cash?

[Alonzo Fyfe]

This talk of getting Bill Gates and Ted Turner to cough up funding has some unpleasant associations.

For years, I have followed a number of people and companies interested in the commercial development of space. They also talk about getting Bill Gates or Ted Turner to 'build a monument' for themselves by funding their pet projects.

And everybody, from those seeking a cure to AIDS or cancer to those seeking to develop alternative fuels, have plans for these peoples' money. For the most part, they have already picked their monuments, and an atheist school is not on the list. There is some minor chance that it might get there, but don't hold your breath.

For one thing, no "sugar daddy" is going to fund anything for which there is no proven demand and no proven model on how the project will work.

The best way to prove demand and to prove the operating model is to create the school, however small, and show how it runs and that there are people out there willing to make use of it.

Without that, all of this talk is pure fantasy.

[Blinn]

Check out this <a href="http://www.dispatch.com/news/religion/faith-story.php?story=dispatch/news/features02/jul02/1349229.html" target="_blank">article</a> (requires registration) on a <a href="http://www.camp-quest.com/" target="_blank">secular summer camp</a>.

[Dark Jedi]

[quote]Originally posted by d'naturalist:
<strong>Welcome boys & girls, to the Wellington Freethought Academy. Hmmm, that sounds suitably Engligh and snobby. :p (I made the name up, so don't go askin' me if I went there! ;) I can only dream -- I'm a public school survivor. Ooops! I mean, graduate)

Personally, I like the idea of a small network of secular private schools, possibly with a homeschool affiliation program (meaning if you homeschool and sign up with the program, you can get books and supplies and tutoring help and a standardized curriculum that would prepare your child to attend the school at any point in their education and be right in step with their peers).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmm, right down the road is Wellington, Colorado. It would be a cheap and nice place to put it.
I would stress the Secular, logical basis of it more than the 'atheist' aspect. Too much negative association with that word lately.

[Dark Jedi]

[quote]Originally posted by Alonzo Fyfe:
<strong>This talk of getting Bill Gates and Ted Turner to cough up funding has some unpleasant associations.

For years, I have followed a number of people and companies interested in the commercial development of space. They also talk about getting Bill Gates or Ted Turner to 'build a monument' for themselves by funding their pet projects.

And everybody, from those seeking a cure to AIDS or cancer to those seeking to develop alternative fuels, have plans for these peoples' money. For the most part, they have already picked their monuments, and an atheist school is not on the list. There is some minor chance that it might get there, but don't hold your breath.

For one thing, no "sugar daddy" is going to fund anything for which there is no proven demand and no proven model on how the project will work.

The best way to prove demand and to prove the operating model is to create the school, however small, and show how it runs and that there are people out there willing to make use of it.

Without that, all of this talk is pure fantasy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Let it be known that backing is being sought in the appropriate media. If such entities are interested, let them approach you. When such people make contributions, it is seldom by personal request.

[god-free-pen]

I think an atheist school is an absolutely marvelous idea! Yes, stress the positive of the humanist philosophy but:

A class that teaches the harmful effects of religious belief, the psychological mis-thinkings,
the terrible wars, the effect of creationism on the world of science, etc. would not be inappropriate.

[god-free-pen]

The fundies would have a ball with some of the suggestions in this thread. Oh my God, here come the little cowardly atheists again, you know the ones that have been in the closet for the past trillion years? They're going to start a school but for god's sake don't call it an atheist school.

I'M DISGUSTED WITH THIS THREAD ! GOODBYE

[d'naturalist]

[quote]Originally posted by god-free-pen:
<strong>They're going to start a school but for god's sake don't call it an atheist school.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I can understand those who don't want their children going through an abortion clinic style fundy hate-mob every day of their lives, but my main reason for avoiding the "atheist school" moniker is simply that I think the school should be home for more than just atheists. Terms like "atheist", "agnostic", "humanist", et al, represent specific groups, while "secular" or "freethought" are more umbrella terms. A school like this should represent the whole secular community.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

[Starspun]

[quote] Terms like "atheist", "agnostic", "humanist", et al, represent specific groups, while "secular" or "freethought" are more umbrella terms. A school like this should represent the whole secular community. <hr></blockquote>

I agree with your statement. As a father, I would be more inclined to an umbrella term than a specific term. I do have a problem with a curriculum that teaches there is no god. This basis alone will draw the fundies out like stink on shit.
Keep it secular and let the parent's, logic classes, and 'improved' history classes take care of the rest.
This really is a great idea, but, to get it up and going, we need specifics. An example that comes to mind is core curriculm. The government places requirements on subjects and if these are not met, then they will step in. Although, this shouldn't be an issue, it does raise questions.
And no wussified athletics. There's nothing like getting nailed in the head during a fun game of dodge ball. :D

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Starspun ]</p>

[David Bowden]

I love this topic and hope something tangible comes out of it!

I think we can tweak our ideas until we have a really excellent, complete academic model to work with.

Even if we can't open such a proper school in the short term, perhaps we can outline a curriculum, create a list of highly recommended books, etc.

It seems like a good idea to find or create a spot on the web that serves as a clearinghouse of this information. Is there a place on SecWeb already devoted to anything like this?

(That way, no matter what we come up with, it won't be forgotten once this thread gets buried in the archives... a miserable fate for too many good ideas.)

I'm sure that whatever material we come up with would be useful to home-schoolers to begin with, and could help secularist parents choose material to appropriately supplement a child's public or religious-private schooling. It might even be useful for public school teachers and administrators, if they tend towards a secular outlook.

And it could just as easily be integrated into a variety of private secular-school solutions for anyone daring to push ahead with such a venture. Eventually one or more setups will catch and succeed.

Just tossing this in: Does anyone know about Mortimer J. Adler's "Paideia" program - how it stacks up against other school-reform programs? I have a couple of his Paideia books but I haven't but glanced at them. I'll take a closer look and see if they might be relevant to our scheming...

-Wanderer :cool:

[Lady MacDuff]

[quote] I do have a problem with a curriculum that teaches there is no god. This basis alone will draw the fundies out like stink on shit.
Keep it secular and let the parent's, logic classes, and 'improved' history classes take care of the rest. <hr></blockquote>

There are already several secular private schools that do not address the issue of "is there a god?" at all. How would our school distinguish itself from the rest? If we purposely don't teach that there is no god only to prevent being singled out and picketed, does it prevent us from properly educating students to the truth? Isn't knowing the fact that there is no god central to learning about and embracing the sciences and the history of our universe?

It is true that teaching atheism specifically might scare some parents away. But just think of how many parents (religious or not) send their children to religious schools where they are bombarded with "god this" and "god that". As a child, wouldn't it be wonderful to get the truth about the universe right away and not have to spend your whole life recovering from your religious schooling?

[Starspun]

[quote] If we purposely don't teach that there is no god only to prevent being singled out and picketed, does it prevent us from properly educating students to the truth? Isn't knowing the fact that there is no god central to learning about and embracing the sciences and the history of our universe? <hr></blockquote>

I see my fallacies. Montessori, I guess would be one of these secular institutions?
So, the school proposed would be a counter to religious based schools, other than straddling(sp?) the fence, in a manner of speaking. It's going to be a hard sell, but, I'll step back and see where this thread leads. Very interesting.

[d'naturalist]

[quote]Originally posted by kstreet:
<strong>Isn't knowing the fact that there is no god central to learning about and embracing the sciences and the history of our universe?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think we need to be so overt in our proclamation of godlessness. Science classes should teach that the Universe is a complete, self-manifested, self-sustaining system. Social Studies or Geography classes should teach about the various tribal religions and the mythical creatures each identifies with. Psychology and philosophy classes can teach or debate why people believe in superstitions. Teach our children to view the world from a secular perspective and godlessness will be fairly self-evident.

Besides, isn't our ultimate goal to rid ourselves of our ancestral superstitions? By making a big deal out of the god question, we give the issue and the subject more attention than it deserves. We put these otherworldly characters in central positions in our's and our children's minds and lives when they should be no more than afterthoughts.

If we're to "assume among the [peoples] of the Earth that separate & equal station to which the Laws of Nature entitle us" (with apologies to Mr. Jefferson for making yet another minor change to his beloved document), then we really have to work on developing our own identity, independent from and indifferent to the others. The secular (godless) perspective needs to become so matter-of-fact in our lives that we don't even need to address that issue, except in helping those going through the deconversion process deal with the cacophony of emotions and thoughts running through their minds.

[Maverick]

[quote]Originally posted by wide-eyed wanderer:
<strong>
I'm sure that whatever material we come up with would be useful to home-schoolers to begin with, and could help secularist parents choose material to appropriately supplement a child's public or religious-private schooling. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I really like this idea, so I thought I would see what the SecWeb has. Lo and behold we have a <a href="http://www.infidels.org/families/parents/index.shtml" target="_blank">Parent's Corner</a>!

I haven't had the chance to look that closely at the information in there, but maybe we can volunteer to expand the links, books, essays, etc.

I am going to ask the admins to place a link in the SL&S header to the Parent's Corner page. I know this doesn't apply to all of us, but it looks like a good source for us infidel parents.

Maverick

[David Bowden]

[quote]Originally posted by d'naturalist:
<strong>I don't think we need to be so overt in our proclamation of godlessness.... Teach our children to view the world from a secular perspective and godlessness will be fairly self-evident.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Somewhat related to this question: Camp Quest, the secular summer camp for kids, posts the Affirmation of Humanism, which parents must read and sign off on before the child is enrolled for camp. One part of the Affirmation is as follows:

"We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation."

Perhaps the school(s) we're proposing could/should have such a statement. Or perhaps there are good reasons not to have such a statement; I'll just post the link.

<a href="http://www.camp-quest.com/files/affirmations.htm" target="_blank">http://www.camp-quest.com/files/affirmations.htm</a>

Their affirmation comes from the Council for Secular Humanism, Paul Kurtz's organization. Perhaps CSH has resources we could use? I'll buzz by their site later on and see...

[quote]Originally posted by d'naturalist:
<strong>...The secular (godless) perspective needs to become so matter-of-fact in our lives that we don't even need to address that issue, except in helping those going through the deconversion process deal with the cacophony of emotions and thoughts running through their minds.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I really like this, d'naturalist.

-Wanderer :cool:

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: wide-eyed wanderer ]</p>

[secular-knight 69]

There are already several secular private schools that do not address the issue of "is there a god?" at all


Lady Macduff, I believe you have made this statement twice in this thread. Do you think that you could name some of these schools and their location? It would very helpful.

Thank you

[Roland98]

This is an old thread and many of the posters are no longer here. I'm locking it, but feel free to start a new one on the topic.

Roland98
SL Moderator