An old timer needs help...urgently

[Corgan Sow]

I do not know which board to post, so, I'm giving my shot here. This post sounds like I've not done much research, but I'm in a need for clarification.

I decided to become an agnostic after some five years of attempted faith to believe in Christ Jesus. I read that you did, too, on some board there, despite the fact you published an "agnostic Christian" article about Hell on net.

I am not a person easily biased. I read arguments from apologists and anti-theists as well. There are times I get struck with Christian agnostics, and there are times the anti-theists made more sense. From my research so far, the anti-theists had my overwelming support. Even from an overwelmingly atheist infidels.org, I find a balanced debate between Christians and atheists, where Christians can be "threatening" as well.

Since you are in faith much longer than I am, these are some answers that I wish you can address urgently;

- How do you deal with the "irony" of Pascal's Wager? How do you deal with, "If I die and see Jesus, and I'm an infidel, I'm doomed". I believe these are the conflict that even "staunch" ex-Christians have to face.

- The biggest mind-numbing question or perhaps, tyrannical of all, "Why aren't you submissive?! Jesus died for us." I posted one question in a foreign forum, said; "If jehovah really wants to send us to hell, He'll have to do it first" And there goes. You will go to Hell for your pride. You and I both know we despise the idea of "good" non-believers, "heathens" who dies in Hell. Even an eternity of scorching flame is not a worthy punishment for Hitler!

- What is the explanation for tons of "supposed" believers who experienced the Holy Spirit? Or any other "outstanding" Christian miracles like exorcism? I would love to read more articles on net, but it'll cost my phone bill.

-How do you respond to an apologist remark that people who want to not believe in God should no longer use that same language that is used for theological purposes? Or advancing the "cliche" of Nietzschean agenda?

-Finally, my response to be Bible is, it's just too vague, unconvincing, with God practising double standards. I can see what kind of bombardment I'll receive from Christians that'll make me sick. If indeed Jesus and Hell did not exist, this must be Mankind's greatest deception ever to delude people. I cannot escape that torment of Hell, still, the truth...speaks out in facts.

Forgive me if these questions seemed to be stereotypical. I do not have time for much research on net, as I'm a student who can't spend too much, and relying maybe some "testimonials", and see what I can do.

Regards,

Corgan

[Talulah]

[quote]I am not a person easily biased. I read arguments from apologists and anti-theists as well. There are times I get struck with Christian agnostics, and there are times the anti-theists made more sense. From my research so far, the anti-theists had my overwelming support. Even from an overwelmingly atheist infidels.org, I find a balanced debate between Christians and atheists, where Christians can be "threatening" as well.<hr></blockquote>

One thing that was empowering to me, was to be able to read apologetics and adknowledge that I didn't believe them anymore. I realized that when I was a Christian, I was afraid to read anything that contradicted my faith, but the more and more I left that wavering faith behind, the more I was free to read differing and opposite opinions and consider both honestly.

One site that I read contantly, while still trying to deny my doubts was

<a href="http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr.htm" target="_blank">http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr.htm</a>

One day I realized that the were skirting and plain ignoring the issues that I was looking for them to clarify, mainly the *real* discrepacies, while focasing on the ones that they *could* explain away.

[quote]- How do you deal with the "irony" of Pascal's Wager? How do you deal with, "If I die and see Jesus, and I'm an infidel, I'm doomed". I believe these are the conflict that even "staunch" ex-Christians have to face.<hr></blockquote>

Pascal's Wager means nothing to me. To me, Christianity wasn't a wager of 'is belief or unbelief more beneficial.' I took the bible, which I had previously held to be inerrant, and discovered problems in it with logic and reliability. Once I didn't believe it was inerrant anymore, the rest just fell away.

[quote]- The biggest mind-numbing question or perhaps, tyrannical of all, "Why aren't you submissive?! Jesus died for us." I posted one question in a foreign forum, said; "If jehovah really wants to send us to hell, He'll have to do it first" And there goes. You will go to Hell for your pride. You and I both know we despise the idea of "good" non-believers, "heathens" who dies in Hell. Even an eternity of scorching flame is not a worthy punishment for Hitler!<hr></blockquote>

One point on this.

Matthew 24

30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send forth His angels with a great Trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Jesus said he would return in that generation. The bible is replete with warnings about the imminant return of Christ and how you shouldn't worry about anything, as Christ is coming. Where would we all be if everyone followed those warnings? No place good, I imagine.


[quote]- What is the explanation for tons of "supposed" believers who experienced the Holy Spirit? Or any other "outstanding" Christian miracles like exorcism? I would love to read more articles on net, but it'll cost my phone bill.<hr></blockquote>

I don't know about anyone else, and I can't provide evidence either way, but I was a Christian for 21 years and I never experianced a miracle, was never spoken too by God or the Holy Spirit or any of those other things. I wasn't taught that these things would happen, so they didn't. Those who are looking for miracles and expect some internal religious experiance, will find it, or manufacture it.

[quote]-How do you respond to an apologist remark that people who want to not believe in God should no longer use that same language that is used for theological purposes? Or advancing the "cliche" of Nietzschean agenda?<hr></blockquote>

I have no idea. I, of course, don't believe the language of God or faith to be 'holy' or 'divine' so I don't have a problem using it in any way that suits me.

[quote]-Finally, my response to be Bible is, it's just too vague, unconvincing, with God practising double standards. I can see what kind of bombardment I'll receive from Christians that'll make me sick. If indeed Jesus and Hell did not exist, this must be Mankind's greatest deception ever to delude people. I cannot escape that torment of Hell, still, the truth...speaks out in facts.<hr></blockquote>

I agree completely about the bible being unconvincing. Intellectually, it is easier to disbelieve. Emotionally, you are still afraid of hell and the wrath of God. It will lessen in time as your emotions catch up to your intellectual findings. I am still working on the same thing myself.

Hope I have been of some help, and Good Luck,

Talulah

[Proxima Centauri]

Corgan Sow, you asked for an answer urgently. I cannot easily give you an answer. If you are an agnostic you have to live with this uncertainty. Thinking too much about it and worrying too much about it makes your life worse in this world.
You can get information about the atheist answer to Pascal's Wager by accessing the search engine at the top right of the HOME PAGE of the SECULAR WEB. I will give you just one example of what you can get there. This is a quotation from Theodore Drange who is a Professor of Philosophy.

By PW Professor Drange means Pascal's Wager.


[quote] 5. It may be that God does not exist and, instead, some other being rules the universe. That being may dislike intensely and may inflict infinite punishment on anyone who believes in God or who believes anything out of self-interest (as recommended in PW). But a person who comes to believe in God on the basis of PW would in that case be in "a heap of trouble," even though God does not exist. The expected utility of the theist's belief situation would be infinitely worse than that of the nontheist. It follows that premise (c) of PW is false.

<hr></blockquote>

Here is the paper where that comes.


Pascal's Wager Refuted

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/wager.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/wager.html</a>


I'll give you another opinion from an agnostic this time.This is from Bill Schulz of

<a href="http://www.agnostic.org" target="_blank">http://www.agnostic.org</a>


Bill Schulz wrote "Pascal's Wager" Is A Trap!
You can read it at.

<a href="http://www.agnostic.org/BIBLEC-06.htm#P347_82983" target="_blank">http://www.agnostic.org/BIBLEC-06.htm#P347_82983</a>

Here's a short quote from Bill Schulz.

[quote]The price you pay for "Pascal's Wager" is that you lose your freedom in THIS LIFE. If you lose, and there is no eternal life after you die here on Earth, you have traded your religious freedom for the rest of your life in return for an empty (and completely unfulfilled) promise. <hr></blockquote>

I repeat, you cannot escape the uncertainty. Concentrate on trying to make yourself and other people happy in this world. This world is the only world you can be sure of.

[Proxima Centauri]

I've been thinking further. Another point you may want to consider is that an afterlife looks unlikely. There is no evidence for an afterlife. What evidence we have suggests that intelligence and consciousness depends on the brain.
Chemicals like alcohol change intelligence and personality temporarily. Brain damage can change intelligence and personality permanently.
Is it likely that personality can continue after the brain has ceased to function? An afterlife is possible. More likely than not consciousness stops when the brain stops functioning.

[Radcliffe Emerson]

I can partially answer the miracles question, based on a man who saw it first hand.
My summer minister at the Unitarian Universalist church I attend told us about his parents. His dad was an atheist, his mom devout. She was riddled with cancer and could not walk. They took her to see a Christian faith healer (his dad of course didn't want to, but went along), who had hundreds of people there getting money from them, etc.
Well he brought her up, spoke all the usual junk about Jesus healing her, touching her, praying, etc, and she suddenly stood up! She could walk again! Everyone was amazed.
Then, after the meeting was over and the excitement started dying down, she started experiencing her old cancerous feelings again. By the time they left two hours later, she had to be carried to the car, she couldn't even walk. She died a few weeks later of the cancer.
Andrenaline from believing Jesus healed her was what got her up and walking, and the so called miracle-worker knew it, and used folks' own mythical beliefs to get their adrenaline going.
Nothing more to it than that. No miracle, no divine healing power at all. He got their money and ran, leaving them to have their old illnesses return.
I think about that now whenever I hear about Benny Hinn.
I think a crowd experiencing the Holy Spirit, is mob mentality the same as a crowd that starts rioting. Everyone gets caught up in the emotion and reacts, no Holy Spirit working at all.


p.s. I was Christian for 41 years, now Unitarian Universalist because I no longer believe the Jewish/Christian myths have any divine message at all, they're merely books of myths and legends.

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]</p>

[diana]

Good morning, Corgan.

I decided to become an agnostic after some five years of attempted faith to believe in Christ Jesus.

This statement strikes me as interesting, for some reason. You "decided" to become an agnostic because you couldn't manage an honest belief in JC. Please pardon my pedantry (and I assume that English is not your first language, so this is not intended to pick on you at all), but it sounds to me as though you haven't decided this so much as merely acknowledged this is how you felt.

I also wonder if you've attempted as hard to believe in any of the other plethora of saviors available. It seems rather unfair to write them all off because you couldn't manage a belief in JC. (Or is it?)

- How do you deal with the "irony" of Pascal's Wager? How do you deal with, "If I die and see Jesus, and I'm an infidel, I'm doomed". I believe these are the conflict that even "staunch" ex-Christians have to face.

I was just thinking about Pascal's Wager and the threat of hell yesterday, as a matter of fact, and I have another thought to toss in with my usual argument that I am incapable of believing something simply because I want to (or am afraid not to).

To wit: let's compare two fictitious companies.

Company A offers to sell you a product designed to protect you against a known evil--say, it has produced an effective vaccination against anthrax. If you've never heard of anthrax, you can speak with people who have no investment in this company and learn what you need to know about it, so even if it isn't an evil that is known to you, it is known to others prior to the marketing of the vaccination.

Company B produces a product designed to protect you against an evil you've never heard of--say, they want you to buy an innoculation against Shrinking Dick Disease. You've never heard of it, and as you ask around, you find no one who has no personal interests in the company who's heard of it, either. You speak with the company and they reassure you that it's a true disease and you NEED their vaccination if you hope to avoid being struck with it. Moreover, you must refresh your innoculation against this dreaded problem regularly--this will be an ongoing investment.

Just how likely are you to believe them and buy their product?

Company A found a gap in the market. They fill an existing need.

Company B created its own market. It literally created a "need" that did not previously exist, then proceeded to meet that "need."

All religions I've ever heard of are Company B's. Outside of the teachings of religion, nobody's ever heard of hell, or sin, or heaven. These concepts were created and perpetrated to create a market for the product: salvation from sins (and ultimately, from hell).

If you honestly fear hell, I have some medications you should look into for the awful scourge of Shrinking Dick Disease (small, unmarked, nonsequential bills only, please).

- You will go to Hell for your pride.

I see this a different way. If I go to hell, I'll go to hell for God's pride. I've done everything in my power to "study to show myself approved unto God" and "search the scriptures daily to see if these things are so," and I honestly do not believe. Of course, the scriptures insist that I must believe and worship God--I MUST BOW DOWN TO HIM--to avoid his eternal revenge.

So God insists I pretend I believe to appease his ego, and if I don't I fry forever?

My pride isn't the ultimate problem. His is.

Another side note: in order for fear and faith to take hold as religion demands it should, all those things that threaten such blind belief must first be stamped out. That includes intelligence, education, and pride. The bible consistently condemns those things that would lead you to question its soothsayers. (But didn't God create us with intelligence and the capacity for higher thought? Would he really insist that we not use these gifts? Think about it.)

- What is the explanation for tons of "supposed" believers who experienced the Holy Spirit? Or any other "outstanding" Christian miracles like exorcism?

The Day of Pentecost narrative was written long after the supposed event took place. Why do you think there's even a shred of truth in it? (Personally, I lean toward the idea that the actual character of Jesus was a complete fabrication, as well. If I claim to believe such a man existed, then I'm stuck believing in Mithras and Zeus, I suppose.)

What are your criteria for believing these stories? Once you've established your criteria, apply those criteria consistently to every miracle ever reported, regardless of whose god was supposedly behind it.

-How do you respond to an apologist remark that people who want to not believe in God should no longer use that same language that is used for theological purposes? Or advancing the "cliche" of Nietzschean agenda?

I've never encountered such a remark, that I know of. I'd respond that

(1) I do not want to not believe; I simply do not believe because the evidence is not convincing; and

(2) I'll use whatever language I like, as I could give a flip what theists approve of or don't.

d

[Radcliffe Emerson]

Wow, diana. I wish I could put my thoughts into written words like you just did.

[DarkBronzePlant]

For what it's worth, my $0.02:

- How do you deal with the "irony" of Pascal's Wager? How do you deal with, "If I die and see Jesus, and I'm an infidel, I'm doomed". I believe these are the conflict that even "staunch" ex-Christians have to face.
<hr></blockquote>
To me, this is little more than dealing with the conflict of "If there is a man-eating dragon in my bedroom, and I go upstairs to my room tonight to sleep, I'm doomed." Sure, there's a chance that there's a man-eating dragon upstairs waiting to gobble me up, but the odds are so minute that they really aren't going to keep me from going upstairs to get a good night's sleep.
[quote]
- What is the explanation for tons of "supposed" believers who experienced the Holy Spirit? Or any other "outstanding" Christian miracles like exorcism? I would love to read more articles on net, but it'll cost my phone bill.
<hr></blockquote>
The same as the explanation for the tons of Elvis fans who have seen Elvis. Or Muslims who have experienced Allah. People see what they want to see, and they read into things what they want to read into them. If a person wants to see Elvis, then any man in his forties with dark sideburns becomes Elvis. Similarly, if a human being wants to believe in the miracles of god, then suddenly every bus accident that kills all but a handful of people is seen as a miracle of god ("Praise God! Two people survived with only horribly-disfiguring injuries!")

As for exorcism... since when is exorcism anything other than a storyline in a movie?
[quote]
-How do you respond to an apologist remark that people who want to not believe in God should no longer use that same language that is used for theological purposes? Or advancing the "cliche" of Nietzschean agenda?
<hr></blockquote>
I've never heard that remark. Can you elaborate a bit on that? For example, am I not supposed to use the word "god" if I don't believe in one?

One comment on that which does come to mind, though, is that the phrase "people who want to not believe in God" is quite presumptious. There are plenty of regulars on this site who would like to believe in God, but are simply unable to because they find no evidence whatsoever.
[quote]
-Finally, my response to be Bible is, it's just too vague, unconvincing, with God practising double standards. I can see what kind of bombardment I'll receive from Christians that'll make me sick. If indeed Jesus and Hell did not exist, this must be Mankind's greatest deception ever to delude people. I cannot escape that torment of Hell, still, the truth...speaks out in facts.
<hr></blockquote>
There is no doubt in my mind that Christianity, or religion in general, is "Mankind's greatest deception." Expecially considering, as you point out, how obscure and fatally flawed the bible is in the first place.

[diana]

[quote]Originally posted by Radcliffe Emerson:
<strong>Wow, diana. I wish I could put my thoughts into written words like you just did.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank you very much, kind sir.

d

[Corgan Sow]

Thanks everyone, including Diana. I am quick to admit my faith in JC was pretentious, that I wanted to save my own ass...

Because the concept of Hell is indeed the most effective delusion ever created.

I even read C.S Lewis, an atheist turned Christian. GOSH! I can't understand the hype of it, even though he gave good spiritual advices, he jumbled up a lot of contradictions trying to explain God.

My experiences of reading apologetic messages is, they always go back to square one; because our mind, thoughts, intellect, non-Christian replies are futile, we should believe in God. There is hideous, just ONE hideous message using science and long winded ramblings as an excuse to refute atheists. Hell, even the Bible is so obsecured compared to teachings of Tao Te Ching or Gautama Buddha!

I hope when more research is done, these thoughts will eventually go away.

Meanwhile, watch out for my topic refuting C.S Lewis's "Mere Christianity"

[cydonia]

I haven't read the C.S. Lewis book yet. As far as i can tell from discussing with various Christians, after i read that and The Case For Christ, i will have seen all the evidence necessary to believe. That bible thing apparently doesn't work so well?

I'm in a similar spot, i'm losing my belief willingly, the fear of hell is just something i don't want to live with anymore. Every piece of "evidence" that shows it may not exist is like a huge weight lifted off my shoulders. Sometimes it's difficult for me to study non-theism because in the back of my mind i'm thinking, "this is the road that leads to hell. Start loving God of your own free will."

I guess it's just a matter of genuinely trusting your own gut. My gut tells me the bible is just wrong, if not historically than at least morally. I refuse to take responsiblity for any temptations a talking snake may have given our common ancestors.

[Corgan Sow]

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000519" target="_blank">Here</a> is the link to my analysis of C.S Lewis's "Mere Christianity".

[Corgan Sow]

Good thing, Cydonia. You and I just need to go into more soul searching by keep seeking things out.

Faith is not how you wait for a someone to help you find a ruby amidst a rubble, rather, your determination to find it no matter what.

The truth will set you free, and it's really true.

[cydonia]

I agree. :)

[doubtingt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Corgan Sow:

- How do you deal with the "irony" of Pascal's Wager? How do you deal with, "If I die and see Jesus, and I'm an infidel, I'm doomed". I believe these are the conflict that even "staunch" ex-Christians have to face.

This one's easy. Imagine that there is a God.
We have no basis to know what this God wants and who he will send to hell. One possibilty is that he sends all non-believers to hell. However, it is just as likely that the he sends all believers to Hell. He gave us the power of reason and he made it so that only those who fail to use this gift can believe in him. So actually, if anything, it is more likely that God punishes the believers who fail to use their gift of reason.
The bottom line is that your chances of "burning in hell" are equal no matter what you believe in, because you have no idea what it is that any God would want you to believe.

- The biggest mind-numbing question or perhaps, tyrannical of all, "Why aren't you submissive?! Jesus died for us." I posted one question in a foreign forum, said; "If jehovah really wants to send us to hell, He'll have to do it first" And there goes. You will go to Hell for your pride. You and I both know we despise the idea of "good" non-believers, "heathens" who dies in Hell. Even an eternity of scorching flame is not a worthy punishment for Hitler!

If Jesus did die (or live), he died for his own beliefs. He believed I am a sinner, so he got himself killed so his dad would forgive me.
Well, regardless of what his dad told him, I'm not a sinner and don't need his dad's approval.
If Jesus died b/c he believed I'm a sinner, then he sadly died for no good reason.

- What is the explanation for tons of "supposed" believers who experienced the Holy Spirit? Or any other "outstanding" Christian miracles like exorcism? I would love to read more articles on net, but it'll cost my phone bill.

This is all pretty straight forward psychology.
PEople induce themselves into having psychological experiences through wishful thinking and intense emotional desire. It's not much different from psychotic episodes or drug experiences. As for miracles, there are none.
Until someone comes up with a single "miracle" that cannot be accounted for by natural explanations, don't waste your time or money.
Read the following book: "Why people believe weird things" by Shermer.

-How do you respond to an apologist remark that people who want to not believe in God should no longer use that same language that is used for theological purposes? Or advancing the "cliche" of Nietzschean agenda?

I don't know what you mean.

-Finally, my response to be Bible is, it's just too vague, unconvincing, with God practising double standards. I can see what kind of bombardment I'll receive from Christians that'll make me sick. If indeed Jesus and Hell did not exist, this must be Mankind's greatest deception ever to delude people. I cannot escape that torment of Hell, still, the truth...speaks out in facts.

If you study the Bible as a piece of literature that has been shaped and reshaped by pre-existing myths, pre-historic fears and ignorance, socio-political agendas, etc.., then the inconsistencies, vagueries, and atrocities you refer to make sense. IF you treat it like a revelation about God, then its nonsensical, terrifying, and should cause any self-respecting person to despise the diety it describes.

Take care,

Thomas

[weronika]

Here's another analysis of Pascal's Wager that I haven't seen here yet:

Start by assuming that the total happiness of your existence is worth the same amount no matter how long it is - if there is no afterlife, then having a happy 80 years in this world is worth as much as going to heaven would be worth if there was an afterlife. This seems a pretty reasonable assumption to me... Let's assign 1 point for a generally happy existence and 0 for a generally unhappy one.

Now even if we assume that there are only 2 options, the Christian god or no god and no afterlife at all, we get 4 possibilities:
1. you were an atheist, and there is no god. You have spent your life doing the things you wanted to do, so it has been happy. You get 1 point.
2. you were an atheist, but there is a god. You have again had a happy life, but then you go to hell, and since hell goes on much longer than 80 years, your whole existence can basically be labeled as unhappy. You get 0 points.
3. you were a believer, but there is no god. You have an unhappy life, because you practiced sacrifice in order to get into heaven - which didn't happen, because there is no heaven. You get 0 points.
4. you were a believer, and there is a god. Your life was still unhappy, but you went to heaven afterwards, so generally your existence was happy. You get 1 point.

So, even if we assume that the probability of the Christian god is 50% (which is actually ridiculous, given all the other possible gods, who may well send Christians to hell), you still get 0 or 1 points with equal probability whether you're an atheist or a believer.

I don't understand your second question...

Thanks for posting the questions - I really enjoyed reading all the responses.

Weronika

[EverLastingGodStopper]

Note: when I replied to this thread, I did not realize it had been bumped from October 2002. Oopsie. Oh well.

- How do you deal with the "irony" of Pascal's Wager? How do you deal with, "If I die and see Jesus, and I'm an infidel, I'm doomed". I believe these are the conflict that even "staunch" ex-Christians have to face.
I consider "Jesus" to be an idea from the Bible, and I consider the Bible to be the flawed, poorly translated religious text of an ancient people. Since I don't think that the Bible is a credible source, I can reject Pascal's wager.

I had this link (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/) in my notes for Pascal's wager. I admit, I haven't read it lately, but I seem to recall it was helpful at one time.
- The biggest mind-numbing question or perhaps, tyrannical of all, "Why aren't you submissive?! Jesus died for us."
Same answer as above: the Bible just isn't a credible source. There are so many religions, each with its own idea. I'll wait for them to come to agreement before I consider the merits of their ideas.
- What is the explanation for tons of "supposed" believers who experienced the Holy Spirit? Or any other "outstanding" Christian miracles like exorcism? I would love to read more articles on net, but it'll cost my phone bill.
Mind over matter, maybe. The power of positive thinking. Read Religious Tolerance.org's stance on "Holy visions." (http://www.religioustolerance.org/vis_brain.htm)
-How do you respond to an apologist remark that people who want to not believe in God should no longer use that same language that is used for theological purposes? Or advancing the "cliche" of Nietzschean agenda?
Language is how we communicate, no one owns words. I wouldn't entertain this concept, since I really don't know what the apologist is talking about. I've never read the famous philosophers, I can't say I'm promoting their agendas. I don't even know what their agendas are. My agenda is my rights under the Constitution (I'm in the USA).
-Finally, my response to be Bible is, it's just too vague, unconvincing, with God practising double standards.
That's how I feel about it, too. When I was young, it never made sense to me to have two Bibles in our house. One Catholic, one King James version. Both blasphemy.

Nowadays, I don't worry about such things, and I'm a much happier person.

[BSM]

- How do you deal with the "irony" of Pascal's Wager? How do you deal with, "If I die and see Jesus, and I'm an infidel, I'm doomed". I believe these are the conflict that even "staunch" ex-Christians have to face.

Pascal's wager does not adress whether or not a God exists. Rather, it says that it is prudent to believe in the Christian version of God despite our lack of evidence for him.

First, how does Pascal know that the Christian version of God exists and not one of the other 2,500 or so deities that humankind has worshipped? Second, what if there is a "God of the naturalists" who does not want us to believe on faith. Rather, this God gives the greater reward to those who use resaon and evidence to find him/her. In that case it would be better not to believe in God based soley on faith.

Finally, based on an examination of the evidence I believe that hell is myth that evolved over time. Summarizing my notes from memory, Plutarch (around 50 CE) and the early Christians viewed hell as a symbolic place. As Christianity evolved hell became a literal concept. The initial teachings, however, were Roman or Jewish in origin. The Valley of Hinnom (aka Valley of Gehenna) was a place outside Jerusalem where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch. Those same pagans thought of hell as a symbolic place and the Jews had little actual teachings on the concept of Hell. So, part of the Christian hell is based on an evolution of a literal place called Gehenna.

In addition, many religions as old (or older) than Christianity have had some notion of a Hell:

-Hecate - Greek goddess of the underworld and witchcraft (around 2000 BCE)
-Nergal - Babylonian god of Hades (around 1760 BCE)
-Tezcatlipoca - Aztec god of Hell (around 1160 BCE)
-Yaotzin - Aztec god of Hell (around 1160 BCE)
-Summerian - Annunaki were seven judges of hell (around 3500 BCE)
-Egytptian - Anubis who led you to the underworld where you were snuffed out of existence (around 3000 BCE)
-Christianity devolped their own version of hell betweewn 30 CE and around 327 CE--intially hell was a symbolic place

Which hell is it that you are worried about? In fact, the above Gods (and many, many, more that I did not list) have heavens and hells yet they have done a pretty bad job of telling us who is right--much less which God really exists. So how can you make a fair and logical choice? It might take years for the average person to research all of these religions and try to figure out who is right. Thus, if a God exists and if he/she is moral, just, and logical, he/she cannot blame us for getting it wrong.

In any event, based on the evidence, I think that the most-likely-to-be-true scenario is that hell is a common myth among many religions which evolved over time.

- What is the explanation for tons of "supposed" believers who experienced the Holy Spirit? Or any other "outstanding" Christian miracles like exorcism? I would love to read more articles on net, but it'll cost my phone bill.

Well, first if all religions are having mystical experiences and miracles does this mean that all of their respective gods exist? Second, could it be that naturalistic explanations need to be considered? Such things as: Psychological strain/trauma, fasting, sensory depravation, drugs or hallucinogens--not to mention scientific explanations for religious experience which are based on brain-related phenomena.

-How do you respond to an apologist remark that people who want to not believe in God should no longer use that same language that is used for theological purposes? Or advancing the "cliche" of Nietzschean agenda?

I would tell them that for us to have a conversation about the traditional western (Abrahamic) concept of God, we need to speak the same language. In other words, we need to use the standard operational definitions that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism use (i.e., omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, etc.); or, have no conversation at all.

-Finally, my response to be Bible is, it's just too vague, unconvincing, with God practising double standards. I can see what kind of bombardment I'll receive from Christians that'll make me sick. If indeed Jesus and Hell did not exist, this must be Mankind's greatest deception ever to delude people. I cannot escape that torment of Hell, still, the truth...speaks out in facts.

I think you're having trouble shaking what was likely taught to you at an early age. I'm no psychiatrist but how I overcame the same "torment" was by researching hell and coming to the conclusion that it is a myth. In fact, it doesn't bother me any more. I am hoping to turn this into an essay some day. However, I'm quite busy so that may not happen until this summer.

Corgan, do you have access to a good library where you live? If so, feel free to drop me an e-mail at inquiry77@aol.com. Give me a few weeks and I might be able to suggest a few good books on the topic.

~BSM

[Never]

The Opening Post on this thread is from October of 2002. While there is no rule about how long a thread can be posted to, I don't think a person asking for advice 2 and 1/2 years ago still needs said advice.

If anyone wants to continue to discuss the subject, please start a new thread.
This one is closed. Thank you.