Are neo-converts stupider?

[hinduwoman]

Are those who convert to another religion very stupid?

David Frawley converted to hinduism. He believes in astrology.

A christian who had in another board converted to Islam said that if Mahammad has said that "Satan lives in one's nose" (actually he does), then Satan must do so, since the Prophet had said so. (this is the best example from many)

Two hindus who had converted to Christianity said that they were now happy because they no longer had to search for truth; it has been given to them. I swear both used this exact phraseology: I don't have to thinkany more

there are intelligent people even among the religious, (ok, except for belieivng in their version of IPU), but the newly converted frankly seems non-starter in intelligence stakes.
Do you know of such cases yourself?

[Asha'man]

Well, I think there are 3 options:

1. These people are stupid, i.e. unable to think.
2. These people are ignorant, i.e. have not been provided with the facts.
3. These people refuse to think, despite having the capability and being provided with facts.

As far as I can tell, most people seem to be in category 2, but will rapidly become category 3 if you engage them in debate. :)

If, one the other hand, most people are really in category 1, then the species is doomed.

Converts are a special case. They must have been provided with some facts in order to convert them. But these are probably a very limited set of facts, and don't include most of the absurdity present in the faith. However, it does make them more likely to be in category 1 or 3.

[lpetrich]

Alternatively, their zeal gets in the way of their critical facilities; too many people seemingly leave their brains at the door of their favorite house of worship.

[Boro Nut]

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
Are neoconverts stupider?

Yes

[scombrid]

I was listening to a sermon on Believing in the Church on the radio last night. Aside from the fact that the preacher's whole arguement centered on the longevity of Xtianity's existence as proof of it's being truth (that's dumb enough), he had to explain to the congregation what homogeneity meant (When he said the word "homogeneity" he chuckled and said "I guess I just feel like using big words tonight". Mister Rogers would be proud "can you say homogeneity, good I thought you could"). My conclusion; his congregation is stupid. No thinking people would tolerate such poor reasoning and condescension (The asshole assumed they didn't know what homogeneity meant, what a jerk)

If someone is born into and indoctrinated with this crap and constantly pressured not to question then they have some excuse. A neo-convert choses to beleive and, therefore, must be stupid. I can't explain the root of the stupidity. Ignorance, possibly but not likely since one would hope they investigated things first. Lack of ability to think, likely. They probably investigated the religion and were unable to filter out the bullshit. Self delusion out of need for fellowship, another good possibility (one of the most common IMO).

edited: farting fumble fingers

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: scombrid ]</p>

[bonduca]

In Tidewater, VA, where I misspent my youth, the fundie contingent used to attach themselves to anyone going through a personal crisis. They offered sympathy, moral support, and the suggestion that becoming "saved" would provide security and comfort. It's not to difficult to imagine someone becoming willfully blind in order to feel safe and accepted.

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

[scombrid]

[quote]Originally posted by bonduca:
<strong>In Tidewater, VA, where I misspent my youth, the fundie contingent used to attach themselves to anyone going through a personal crisis. They offered sympathy, moral support, and the suggestion that becoming "saved" would provide security and comfort. It's not to difficult to imagine someone becoming willfully blind in order to feel safe and accepted.

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


That's still their favorite sell technique to teens here in Hampton Roads. Some of the youth groups really do take you in and make you one of the crowd.

[Ape]

In high school I was never Mr. Popular. My senior year a fellow student and myself became friends. This happened at the convient time I was trying to get over a loss two loved ones. It ends up he was really only to trying to convert me.

He had put up a 4 month false front in order to try and "save" me because at the time he knew my family was catholic. So one night he asks if I want to come hang out and maybe catch a movie as we normally did. He insisted on driving, and procedeed right to the local baptist church, to watch faith videos with his youth group. It was more like a kind of intervention that is used on people with mental problems. They all sat there and told me how I needed jesus and he would make my life better etc. I sat through it more out of shock than politeness before asking to go home. They told me to think about it and ask god. As soon as I told him privately that night that I thought god never existed, he tried to argue and win me over, got tired of it after a couple days and never heard from him again.

I had never been so angry! The thought of someone pretending to be friends with me in order to "save" me. I felt used and abused, and I still find myself having trouble trusting people. I always wonder now if they are my friends because they like me, or if they have some other motive.

I now see that this is common practice by xians. I really connected to that jewish boy in Texas that was in the news recently about xian youth groups and targeting people for conversions.

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Ape ]</p>

[Wizardry]

Are neo-converts stupider?

They'd have to be. They can't use the compartmentalization excuse like those who have been indoctrinated from birth.

They actually have to look at apologetics and say, "That makes a lot of sense."

Can't get much stupider.

[Allkholollick]

Its a culture of ignorance. All that one needs to know about life, the world, ethics, etc. is in the bible. From what I have seen, many fundies have an enormous inferiority complex with respect to people with any amount of education beyond high school.
Thier religion allows them to feel that they are "smarter" than all those college graduates because the bible gives them all of the answers.
Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

[Triple Six]

Dumber? Most probably. Without the damaging effects from being indoctrinated into a religion since childhood any semi intelligent human should be able to spot them for the hogwash they are.

The only real exception seems to be the emotionally insecure who, sad to say religions are experts at targetting. Whatever the reason there aren't many (if indeed any at all) new converts that aren't damaged goods in some way.

[lpetrich]

As to amusing convert stories, there are some nice articles in <a href="http://www.salon.com" target="_blank">http://www.salon.com</a> about John Walker Lindh, the American Taliboy.

He was the sort of convert who was "more Catholic than he Pope", or in his case, "more Muslim than Mohammed".

He went to Yemen for a while so that he could learn to speak an Arabic dialect that was supposedly close to the Classical Arabic of the Koran, and he ended up annoying several people there. Several of the Yemenis he encountered would prefer to nap in the afternoon rather than say their prayers and they would often seem preoccupied with chewing qat, a druggy sort of leaf. Also, the Taliboy disdained Shiites, while in Yemen, Sunnis and Shiites coexisted peacefully.

He tried to go to the northern mountains to get some supposed pure-Islam instruction, but he was turned back; he eventually went to Pakistan and ultimately to Afghanistan in his search for a supposedly more pure version of Islam.

[The Lone Ranger]

I think that most of the people who are out to convert others to their religion are well aware that you have to get 'em young.

Teens can be especially vulnerable, since they're typically going through so many life-changing events, and are often quite unsure of themselves and what they believe, so they make good targets.

Here on campus, I see Christian Fellowship members pressing leaflets on every 17-, 18-, 19-, and 20-year old that they can make eye contact with. I'm in my 30s now; they take one look at me and move on.

(It's a shame really, as I'd almost look forward to one of them asking me if s/he can share the wonder of Jesus' love with me. "Of course -- if you'll grant me equal time to tell you all about the magnificence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn," would be my reply.)

Cheers,

Michael

[scombrid]

Neo-Convert to beat all neo-converts from fowarded email:

January 15, 2002
Ex-Muslim Scholar's Book Refutes Islam ( CHARISMA &lt;../credits.htm&gt ;) -- A
former leading Muslim scholar has written a book refuting the idea that
Islam is a peaceful religion, despite fears for his life. While many people
have been arguing that those behind the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks do not
represent true Islam, Mark Gabriel has been putting the finishing touches to
a study that analyzes Muslim history and looks at what he says are the roots
of violence in the Quran. The author of the forthcoming "Islam and
Terrorism" (Charisma House) writes with authority, as a former professor of
Islamic history and culture at the most prestigious Muslim institution in
the world -- Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt. Raised to be a devout
follower of Muhammad, Gabriel began reciting the Islamic holy book at age 6
and had memorized the entire writings by the time he was 12. After studying
Islam at the University of Cairo, he graduated second in a class of 6,000.
But his scrutiny of his faith led him to discover Islam's dark underside. He
could not understand why Islamic nations had been so violent toward one
another through history, and he wrestled with the many contradictions he
found in the Quran. "I became very confused between the teachings of Islam
and the Muslim practice of Islam," he recalled. "This was a very big issue
to me, but I was not allowed to question anything. No one is." Gabriel's
questioning led to his suspension from the school and eventual imprisonment.
"I didn't know where to turn," he said. "I had always been told that
Christianity is the wrong faith because they believe in three gods. So, for
a year I was without a god." While working for his father, Gabriel
developed chronic headaches and started visiting a local pharmacy for help.
The pharmacist, a Christian, finally asked what was wrong because she feared
that he was becoming addicted to the medication. He told her he had been
searching for the true God. "She smiled and said, 'I don't think this is
something you can deal with by taking tablets,'" he said. "She handed me her
Bible and made me promise not to take any more tablets until I had at least
read some of it." He took the Bible home and started reading in the book of
Luke. "I lost all track of time," he remembered. "It felt like I was sitting
on a cloud above a hill, and in front of me was the greatest teacher telling
me about the secrets of heaven and the heart of God." Gabriel gave his life
to Christ. But when his father learned of the conversion, he tried to shoot
his son. Gabriel's sister and mother helped him flee the country. He made
his way to South Africa, where he received discipleship training with Youth
With a Mission. Because of continued threats on his life, he was forced to
move to the United States last year, seeking religious asylum. © 2002
charismanews.com © 2002 Maranatha Christian News Service (Post date:
January 11, 2002)

----------------------------------
(end of forwarded material)

[lpetrich]

That's cute. Here's a URL that discusses some cases of converts being fervent:

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_babinski/experience.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_babinski/experience.html</a>

What is most amusing is the variety of creeds that have attracted fervent converts. If the ability to inspire such fervor is a measure of truth, then lots of mutually-contradictory creeds must be true at the same time.

And about Taliboy John Walker, he was nicknamed "Yusuf Islam" by some of the Yemenis he had encountered; he must have reminded them of the well-known convert Cat Stevens.

I wonder why those who take on Arab names simply don't translate their original names or choose similar-sounding names -- I wonder what an Arabic translation of "Cat son of Stephen" would be, using the Arabic word for the familiar domestic animal.

[hinduwoman]

Yeah, the neo-converts have no excuses of early indoctrination.
The thing about astrology really shocked me. He is an Englisman, who has been brought up in a culture of non-belief in astrology; so how can he start believing in it?

[StandupHookupGo]

Are new converts "stupid"?
The question brings to mind an experience I had a few years back. I was sitting in a restaurant by myself, getting some lunch. At the table next to me there was a group of three or four women. They were talking about some guy, who they were ALL apparently crazy about.
"He did so much for me," one said.
"I know," said another, "my life has changed so much since I met him."
This went on for a few minutes, while I wondered whether there was a group of women sitting in a restaurant somewhere talking about me in that way, and how my head would swell to planetoid proportions if I could hear it.
Only when one of the women started to describe how thankful she was to the mystery man for having "died for my sins", I realised these otherwise normal-looking adults were talking about someone who did not exist.
You might say the true nature of faith was revealed unto me that afternoon, as a lightning bolt from on high: You don't have to be stupid to accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour. Nutsy-cuckoo will do just fine, too.

[anthrosciguy]

Just as people who just quit smoking or drinking can be the most zealous and obnoxious with others who share their former habit, new converts might often be over zealous. Plus there's the possibility (likelihood, I'd think) that many people who convert to a religion who tend to be someone who A) is a zealot who nevertheless B) is rather weak about resisting. So they plunge in and accept all ideas thrown at them.

Also, I don't think it's stupidity (many such people may be quite smart) but instead is a lack of self esteem or strength of will.

[SEF]

I agree with the already noted categories of converts (in addition to the 0th case of being born into it):

1. stupid/ignorant but, more to the point, gullible in general and possibly with bullying tendencies which they would otherwise be too inadequate to express without a convenient pack.

2. vulnerable and deliberately targeted (ie low self-esteem, alienation and in need of a comfort blanket at a specific time when the vultures are around).

However, no-one much seems to have addressed the self-convert (unless the "more muslim than mohammed" example counts). My family opted to ditch one branch of religion for another when they were forced to recognise how unacceptable the default one was because of a particular incident. This is a bit like Darwin and the death of his precious daughter except that they lacked the courage to give up the comfort blanket altogether. They ended up in the most vague nebulous "religion" around - the non-creed (but still slightly tainted by christianity) unitarianism. So I propose:

3. self-converts who've noticed the unacceptable contradictions or conditions but lack the emotional maturity to give the whole thing up and instead actively look for a weaker (or merely different?) version.

[GodelEscherBob]

No doubt a significant number of neo-converts grab religion in a moment of insecurity, lack of self-esteem, need to feel loved, etc. The church that I grew up in was full of all sorts of those morons, and it’s not like a have the least bit of patience for that kind of nonsense, but I sometimes catch myself wondering if one of the factors of my being an atheist is because it makes me feel smarter. Sometimes I think that that can be a bit of a security blanket too.

[andy_d]

I adopted Buddhism a few years ago, having previously been a sort of wishy-washy wooly-minded agnostic. I don't think i'm stupid, and I don't think the things which attracted me to Buddhism were due to any kind of weakness on my part.

In fact, since chosing such a path for myself, i've done a lot of reading about religion in general, and have become a much more discriminating thinker in religious matters. Thats something I have found this site useful for, in fact.

[Brother Daniel]

My (very fundy Xian) parents have a rather successful habit of converting grad students and postdocs - mostly studying sciences, and mostly from mainland China (many of these are brought up as atheists). I don't think that "stupidity" has anything to do with these cases. But when you're far from home and experiencing culture shock, you can be strongly influenced by people who go out of their way to be friendly (even if they do so with an agenda). Smart people are vulnerable to emotional manipulation, just as stupid people are.

[Singerian]

Smart people are vulnerable to emotional manipulation, just as stupid people are. Yes, but not to the same extent. Even a willing intelligent person will have trouble pushing the bullshit through his more more powerful shield.

[Heathen Dawn]

My beliefs aren’t stupid, they’re just without conclusive evidence. That can’t be helped, since atheism was depressing the sh*t out of me.

[BDS]

Neither new converts nor religious people in general are necessarily "stupid". One need only look at the number of geniuses who were also religious to discover that. Was C.S. Lewis, an adult Christian convert and the Professor of Medieval Literature at Oxford, "stupid"?

As much as we atheists would like to think of ourselves as smarter than Christians, there are enough smart Christians in the world to prove us wrong.

The idea that anyone who thinks differently from how we think must do so out of "stupidity" is a bit conceited, isn't it? Orthodoxy comes in many forms, and uses many tools to build itself up, including ridicule for heresy. No doubt each of us (whether religious or not) believes as we do because we think we are right, and we think that those who believe differently are wrong. If we didn't think we were right, we would change our beliefs.

Naturally, this fact leads us to believe that those who disagree with us are wrong, but need we call them "stupid"? Orthodoxy and Fundamentalism come in many forms, and atheists are not immune to them.

[Shake]

My beliefs aren’t stupid, they’re just without conclusive evidence. That can’t be helped, since atheism was depressing the sh*t out of me.You must not have been a True Atheist(TM) then. :D

Holy old thread resurrection, Batman!

[Heathen Dawn]

You must not have been a True Atheist(TM) then. :D

Oh, you’re one of those believers in ODAD (Once Damned Always Damned), eh? ;)

[hinduwoman]

Neither new converts nor religious people in general are necessarily "stupid". One need only look at the number of geniuses who were also religious to discover that. Was C.S. Lewis, an adult Christian convert and the Professor of Medieval Literature at Oxford, "stupid"?

As much as we atheists would like to think of ourselves as smarter than Christians, there are enough smart Christians in the world to prove us wrong.

The idea that anyone who thinks differently from how we think must do so out of "stupidity" is a bit conceited, isn't it? Orthodoxy comes in many forms, and uses many tools to build itself up, including ridicule for heresy. No doubt each of us (whether religious or not) believes as we do because we think we are right, and we think that those who believe differently are wrong. If we didn't think we were right, we would change our beliefs.

Naturally, this fact leads us to believe that those who disagree with us are wrong, but need we call them "stupid"? Orthodoxy and Fundamentalism come in many forms, and atheists are not immune to them.

Ok maybe not stupid. But HOW, having seen through the absurdities of one religion can they not see that the other religions have the same flaws?

[Furyus George]

Stupid. Stupider. Very Stupid. Unable to think. Refusing to think. Lack of ability to think. Ignorant. Left my brains at the door. Self-deluded. Willfully blind. In a culture of ignorance. Enormous inferiority complex. Dumb. Semi-intelligent. Emotionally insecure. Damaged goods. Nutsy-cuckoo. Weak. Lacking self-esteem. Lacking strength of will. Gullible. Vulnerable. In need of a comfort blanket. Lacking emotional maturity. Moronic. Needs to feel loved.

As a Christian, all I can say is: Yes. I'm guilty of each and every charge.

Furyus George, admits it.

[lpetrich]

Pure self-pity.

It's possible to be an absolute genius and have absolutely nutty beliefs. In fact, one might be better-prepared for doing so in some ways, because one can then come up with ingenious defenses of those beliefs.

No matter what a waste of brainpower those defenses might be.

And yes, I'm sure that Heathen Dawn was right about having been an atheist -- he connected that to believing that death ends one's consciousness, a prospect that gave him great fear.

[sharon45]

Converting really isn't about a person's intelligence, it is much more about that person's fear.

[sharon45]

Stupid. Stupider. Very Stupid. Unable to think. Refusing to think. Lack of ability to think. Ignorant. Left my brains at the door. Self-deluded. Willfully blind. In a culture of ignorance. Enormous inferiority complex. Dumb. Semi-intelligent. Emotionally insecure. Damaged goods. Nutsy-cuckoo. Weak. Lacking self-esteem. Lacking strength of will. Gullible. Vulnerable. In need of a comfort blanket. Lacking emotional maturity. Moronic. Needs to feel loved.

As a Christian, all I can say is: Yes. I'm guilty of each and every charge.

Furyus George, admits it.Then you wouldn't have been able to write that out, so obviously, it is a joke.

[Furyus George]

Then you wouldn't have been able to write that out, so obviously, it is a joke.

Yes and no. I didn't mean to imply I live in a constant state of stupid. But I have, at one point or another, and sometimes repeatedly, experienced the entire list.

Furyus George, cherishes lucid moments

[Jackalope]

Yes and no. I didn't mean to imply I live in a constant state of stupid. But I have, at one point or another, and sometimes repeatedly, experienced the entire list.

[edit: insult deleted]

[Freodin]

No, they don´t have to be stupid at all.

But many converts are so happy with their new-found "only true wisdom" that they want to share it.
As most of them lack the necessary background to do so well, they become rather annoying. That´s all IMO.

(Perhaps some of them ARE stupid - but I would never assume anyone is stupid.)

[Brother Daniel]

It's possible to be an absolute genius and have absolutely nutty beliefs. In fact, one might be better-prepared for doing so in some ways, because one can then come up with ingenious defenses of those beliefs.

No matter what a waste of brainpower those defenses might be.

Exactly.

I would suggest that intelligence, by itself, isn't very effective as an antidote for nutty beliefs. Honesty is much more powerful. And courage, too, for as sharon45 rightly says:

Converting really isn't about a person's intelligence, it is much more about that person's fear.

[MsChutzpah]

since atheism was depressing the sh*t out of me.


Yeah, REALITY is such a bitch, ain't it? ;)

[Heathen Dawn]

Yeah, REALITY is such a bitch, ain't it? ;)

I’m under no obligation to believe atheism is the truth.

[Matrioshka_Brain]

I’m under no obligation to believe atheism is the truth.

Hm... ok, let's try this on for size then:

Yeah, REASON is such a bitch, ain't it?

Is that better? :p

[Heathen Dawn]

Yeah, REASON is such a bitch, ain't it?

I’m under no obligation to believe reason leads only to atheism.

Howzat? :D

[Matrioshka_Brain]

I’m under no obligation to believe reason leads only to atheism.

Howzat? :D

That's true. It also can lead to agnosticism.

OR neopaganism, depending on the limits one puts on their own abilities. ;)

[Heathen Dawn]

That's true. It also can lead to agnosticism.

OR neopaganism, depending on the limits one puts on their own abilities. ;)

I am indeed a neopagan now, Matrioshka.

[Matrioshka_Brain]

I am indeed a neopagan now, Matrioshka.

Well, considering it does no harm, I'm glad you've finally settled on something that you really like*.







________________
*For now.