First Human Clone: Done By Raelians?!

[THE_LEGENDARY_HQB]

Greetings to all,

As you may or may not have heard, the worlds first cloned baby has been born.

And just who has made this monumental leap in biotechnology, which oculd have huge ramifications for our society?

THE RAELIANS!

Za? :confused:

If you're not familiar with these characters, they claim that their leader, a former French Journalist, was contacted by aliens and chosen to lead humanity into a new golden age.

They claim that Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, and just about every other godman/prophet you can imagine, is alive on the aliens' planet, kept alive for eternity by- you guessed it, cloning!

My favourite claim of theirs is that the Bible is the worlds oldest "atheistic book" {I am NOT making this up}! :D

Comments? Opinions?:
Criminy.
The Legendary HQB, Esq.
Grand Duke of Negril. :

[Linda]

This thread has been moved to the Science and Skepticism Forum.

[Lady MacDuff]

Just heard this on NPR! They aren't showing any proof yet though...I guess we won't find out for sure until a real scientist can get DNA samples from both the mom and the baby.

I doubt they will allow that though.

[Hubble head]

I don't find his story about being visited by aliens all that believable but some of their/his explanations about our origens certainly make more sense than a sky fairy snapping his fingers to get Walla! presto-people and civilization.

I hope it really is a successful human cloning experiment for the sake of science.

Oddly enough, many biblical stories are unusually vague about sky-visitors and creators. Burning wheels, lights in the sky, miracle healing, living way over 100 years (as a pure strain of our genetic make up might be capable of) certainly had to come from somewhere. Why not aliens?

If we can understand infinity we should certainily be able to understand the possibility of life on other planets.

[GunnerJ]

Anyone here read You Are Being Lied To?

If that book is to be believed, thjen this is merely the first human clone that has been born. Human cloning had already been accomplished, but the results were never brought to fruitition.

[crocodile deathroll]

I think these Raelians are just as nutty as the cretinists, because they claim the human race decended from visitors from outer space 25,000 years ago in spite of all of the fossil evidence to the contrary.

This may be a littly rash but I will stick ny neck out here and say "there is no cloned baby at all", it is all just media hype.
If would be a most interesting scenario if I am wrong.

[Demosthenes]

It would certainly be interesting if the Raelians' claim is verified. If there is no cloned baby at all, then I'm curious to why the Raelians jumped the gun, so to speak. I hear that Raelians are allowing the independent expert panel that is forming as we speak unfettered access to the baby once she returns home.

It'll hardly serve them any useful purpose to make false claims that can be easily exposed, unless, they're using the whole thing as a ploy to chart the depth of public and private reactions to the news of a cloned human baby. I'm just speculating of course, beyond the essentials, I have no idea of the purpose behind the Raelian cult.

[Answerer]

I had just heard that news yesterday and I will hope it to be true of course. Even if it is not, the news will definitely inspired others to follow in their daring ventures. I think many theists will be pissed off by this piece of new.

[Demosthenes]

very, because for years, they've been clamouring that cloned people would have no souls, are monsters, abhorrent, and just plain evil as if we haven't gotten their draft by now :rolleyes:

[CALDONIA]

The claim of a cloned human being comes from a delusional cult, with no evidence to support the claim, and itplays to a credulous media during a slow news period, for the amusement of a population ignorant of science. The mere fact that scientists have allowed themselves to be interviewed (well, maybe everyone likes to be a media darling) about the matter without a shred of evidence being produced as to its truth, says a lot about the current state of critical thinking in this country.

[-RRH-]

Originally posted by Demosthenes
It'll hardly serve them any useful purpose to make false claims that can be easily exposed.

It's a cult. False claims are the bricks on which cults are built. And no false claim will be exposed to everyone. There will be enough people who never see the counter evidence to keep the cult running a little longer, until they come up with a new fabrication.

I suppose there is an off chance that they really did accomplish something. They can focus an awful lot of man hours on working towards a goal. If a good handful of those people have the smarts to do it, it could have happened.

[tk]

I suspect the announcement was nothing more than a stunt to gain publicity for the Raelian cult. Some people, after the cloning announcement, may be inclined to find out more about the cult. If they're gullible enough, they may eventually join it.

(This is just my guess though...)

[Marduk]

I’ve always found the theory that homosapiens came about as the results of alien genetic experiments on early hominids interesting “Let us make man in our image” But I don’t understand making this into a religion or cult. Oh I can understand Rael doing it for the money, but why join this cult? There is nothing supernatural or religious about it. What is the point??

[tk]

but why join this cult? There is nothing supernatural or religious about it. What is the point??
Perhaps the gullible people would like to feel more in control over their destinies and their environment?

From the cult's own writings, it seems this is indeed the message the cult's trying to send. I was bored enough to search for `Raelian Rael' on Google, and I found a direct link to the cult's web site itself (I won't post the link here, for fear of increasing its Googlejuice). In the philosophy summary, it said:
In the message which they <aliens> dictated to Rael, which he has now published as a series of books, they kindly bring us a new vision of the universe, which provides us with the keys to awakening our own potential and a series of values to revolutionise society.

This new philosophy, where spirituality and science meet, is taught at international seminars on every continent and is the final ingredient necessary to ignite a personal and global revolution of individuality, freedom, love and
respect. It is already sweeping the globe and allowing humanity to transform war into peace, labour into leisure, poverty into fulfilment and money into love. The Raelian revolution is made up of people from all walks of life, from all sexual orientations, from all races, all ages, everyone different and fiercely non conformist, turning everything they touch into fun and pleasure.

(Further up, there's also this gem: "It <the Raelian `movement'> is a completely open organization designed not to convince people, but to allow those who wish to help, to join or leave anytime." Wait, there's something in the universe known as mind control...)

[AtomSmasher]

Originally posted by CALDONIA
...
The mere fact that scientists have allowed themselves to be interviewed (well, maybe everyone likes to be a media darling) about the matter without a shred of evidence being produced as to its truth, says a lot about the current state of critical thinking in this country.

Most of the news pieces I've seen that had reputable scientists interviewed basically said that much: it is possible but we are still waiting for independent verification. I don't see anybody except the Raelians claiming this to be legitimate science.

[Eudaimonist]

Originally posted by marduck
I’ve always found the theory that homosapiens came about as the results of alien genetic experiments on early hominids interesting “Let us make man in our image” But I don’t understand making this into a religion or cult. Oh I can understand Rael doing it for the money, but why join this cult? There is nothing supernatural or religious about it. What is the point??

Why did people join the Heaven's Gate cult? Why do people get so hyped up about UFOs?

I think it gives their lives a sense of wonder, meaning, and purpose.

[Vorkosigan]

Originally posted by Eudaimonist
I think it gives their lives a sense of wonder, meaning, and purpose.

Yes, but why select a cult, as opposed to an interest in model railroading or amatuer astronomy, as the vehicle for acheiving that? There's something about identity and social groups going on here. Not to mention charismatic leadership.

Vorkosigan

[Answerer]

Perhaps many theists joined christinity and Islam for the same reasons as the cultists, the only difference is that those two 'religions' started off much earlier.

[Darwin's Beagle]

First, I will not believe the Raelians have done what they claim to have done until the DNA tests are in, which is supposed to happen in about a week.

Second, even if they have successfully cloned a human, I think their organization is on the lunatic fringe of society.

According to what I read the leader was formally a French journalist employed by a car-racing magazine who decided one day to skip work and visit a dormant volcano in France. At the volcano he met some meter-high pale-green "people" with almond eyes who spoke perfect French. The first words spoken to him were supposed to have been, "I'll bet you're sorry, you didn't bring your camera." These aliens then went on to tell him that they had created all human life by genetic engineering about 25,000 years ago. They also convinced him that so long as there is a body the soul will live on.

The French journalist (nee Claude Vilhout -- or something like that) changed his name to Rael. Fled France for the USA and started his religion which is said to number about 55,000. Their beliefs include a strong emphasis on feminism, tolerance of homosexuality, and good looks. They also believe that one can gain immortality by being cloned. They believe with the advent of the atomic bomb, the world has entered the apocalyptic era. They are trying to ready themselves for the return of the aliens to take them away sometime around 2035.

OK, having said that, let me ask the following question. Are the basic tenets at its core in reality any more outlandish than those of any other religion?

Cheers
DB

[Seeker196]

Any updates?

I'm currently 'agnostic' about this claim, although I admit my BS meter is screaming when I read how much Rael charges to speak in public debate on www.cloneaid.whatever...

Antonio Severino seems like a much more credible source for first human clone.

Although, aren't identical twins really the first human 'clones'?

What does the Church say about identical twins?

[crocodile deathroll]

I am still waiting of the scientific evidence for the Raelians to back their claim.
They said they will produce it this week.

[los]

The first thing I do with something sounding as absurd as some of these claims, is believe it.

And though this may sound even more ridiculous, it gives a broader perspective of why they think the way they do... and how to require further evidence and ask more detailed questions.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with as proposed evidence.

[tk]

Rael strikes again (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035776230942&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968705899037):
Brigitte Boisselier, the chemist who heads Clonaid, told a French television station that no DNA sample has been taken and the parents of the baby are reluctant because of a custody challenge launched in Florida.
Hey wait, I don't see any parents around. What's more...
At another point, he was asked if his group had simply got away with a great publicity stunt. Rael, speaking from Sherbrooke, Que., via satellite, said his earpiece was having technical difficulties.

"I am so sorry, but the sound is so bad I cannot hear anything," he said.

[Ion]

Originally posted by los
The first thing I do with something sounding as absurd as some of these claims, is believe it.
...
It will be interesting to see what they come up with as proposed evidence.
Nothing,
this sect claims a hoax, for publicity purpose.

[Azathoth]

Originally posted by Darwin's Beagle
OK, having said that, let me ask the following question. Are the basic tenets at its core in reality any more outlandish than those of any other religion?

Cheers
DB

Nope.Not at all.

What I find most amusing is when someone from another religion criticises the Raliens,based on their belief in aliens,cloning,etc..,then turns around and completely believes that a talking snake convinced a woman made from a rib,to eat an apple,that let her know she was naked.

The kid's likely a hoax,though.CNN and the rest of the major news channels should really check a little closer before running with these stories.

[Ion]

In today's newspaper, the Raelians claim they have cloned another baby soon to be born somewhere in Europe.

Of course, like the first baby born 'in Florida', scientific evidence for their cloning won't be available, because of lawyers, custodies, "...earpiece having technical difficulties...", ethical second-guessing, tampering with DNA by an anti-Raelian conspiracy, etc., but sure publicity for Raelians is more and more available since their claim about cloning.

These are the same tactics of falsehood that religions employ:
the Raelians are charlatons, making a quick buck.
(For example, see the exorbitant fees that Rael asks for public speeches on the topic of nothing).

What this lie provides, though, is the reading in newspapers about legitimate research into cloning, and experts working on the pregnancy phase, with possible results to come soon indeed.

[crocodile deathroll]

Does Rael deserve the same respect as other religious crackpots like Billy Graham?

[Ion]

To me, charlatons -like Rael, the Pope, etc.- don't deserve respect.

[tk]

To me, charlatons -like Rael, the Pope, etc.- don't deserve respect.
Certainly though, they deserve the same amount of respect... :D By the way, it should be "charlatans".

[punta]

did anyone catch this part from the summary (http://www.rael.org/int/english/index.html) on their website...

Following the extra-terrestrial's instructions, Rael established the Raelian Movement, an international organization to bring together anyone who wishes to help.

It is an atheist, non-profit, spiritual organisation; "atheist" because it demystifies the old concept of god, "spiritual" because it links us with our creators and infinity, and "non-profit" because no member gets paid any salary, not even Rael himself.

yup. a whole lot of demystification going on there.

isn't an atheist/spiritualist a bit of an oxymoron?

[Stiletto One]

I dunno...I still give the Pope some respect. At least he tries to be a good guy, "saving souls" and all.

Rael just strikes me as a moron. :cool:

[THE_LEGENDARY_HQB]

Originally posted by Punta from the Raelians' website:
"Following the extra-terrestrial's instructions, Rael established the Raelian Movement, an international organization to bring together anyone who wishes to help.

It is an atheist, non-profit, spiritual organisation; "atheist" because it demystifies the old concept of god, "spiritual" because it links us with our creators and infinity, and "non-profit" because no member gets paid any salary, not even Rael himself".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Considering that these snapperheads actually lable the Bible as "the worlds oldest Atheist book", I don't take their definition of "atheism" very seriously.

I do have one question, though.

How can cloning achieve immortality? .:confused:

I mean, if I'm cloned, the clone may share all my genes, but he certainly won't have any of my memories. So, my essence, my sentience, my being, will still die with me. I won't know what my clone will be doing, because I'll be dead! Not to derail the thread, but that just really bothers me.
Criminy.
Respect,
Shon Hieronymus Q Blankenship {the Q stands for Flavius}, Esq.
Earl of Oranjestad.

[Asha'man]

Originally posted by THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

How can cloning achieve immortality? .:confused:

First, you prefect cloning.

Second, you get instant aging working, so your clone can be 20 years old in just a few weeks.

Third, you invent personality transfer. That way, your memories and experiences are instantly uploaded into the clone.

Really, that is their plan. :eek:

[THE_LEGENDARY_HQB]

Originally posted by Asha'man:
"First, you prefect cloning.

Second, you get instant aging working, so your clone can be 20 years old in just a few weeks.

Third, you invent personality transfer. That way, your memories and experiences are instantly uploaded into the clone.

Really, that is their plan."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But, if your clone is 20 years old in just a few weeks, wouldn't he be dead in a few months?

Wouldn't that mean you'd need to clone yourself something like twice a year?

Wouldn't we run out of room to bury the bodies?

In transferring your personality to the clone, what happens to the personality he has already developed? Is it wiped out? If so, isn't that a form of murder?

Wouldn't they...screw it, these people have an I.Q somewhere between fresh manure and a jar of pickles.

Lades,
HQB

[Azathoth]

Originally posted by tk
Certainly though, they deserve the same amount of respect... :D By the way, it should be "charlatans".


That's about the way it is with me,as well.I consider them all to be similar.

Talk to a christian about the Raliens,and you'll get them talking all about their weird beliefs,without a thought in the world about their own belief system.

Hmm,considering the number of christian apologists,I wonder if the Raelians have spawned any,as well.




I mean, if I'm cloned, the clone may share all my genes, but he certainly won't have any of my memories. So, my essence, my sentience, my being, will still die with me. I won't know what my clone will be doing, because I'll be dead! Not to derail the thread, but that just really bothers me.

But, if your clone is 20 years old in just a few weeks, wouldn't he be dead in a few months?

In transferring your personality to the clone, what happens to the personality he has already developed? Is it wiped out? If so, isn't that a form of murder?

Wouldn't they...screw it, these people have an I.Q somewhere between fresh manure and a jar of pickles.

To quote every religious figure from the dawn of history 'till now:

"You think too much.Let the spirit of God/Xenu/Zeus/Quezacouatil (pick one good guy),work within"

"Satan/Samhain/Baal/Loki (pick one bad guy),have corrupted your thoughts aganist us!"

"Clearly,you're not reading this in the proper context!"



That should about cover the basic apologetics,and reasons for stupid beliefs.

[Stephen T-B]

I wasi nterested in this link which is provided on the Raelians' own Home Page:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/raelians/raelians66.html

[ax]

No new updates on the (supposed) cloned humans?