What is SOOO great about Heven?

[tdekeyser]

What is this 'gift package' supposed to have in it for believers? What is SOOO wonderful about heaven? What will I be getting if I turn myself over to Jesus?

I never could get a straight answer....

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

Hehe. Perhaps the great thing about heaven is that you will get to kiss the big JC's ass for eternity.

I honestly don't see what could be so great about the xian heaven unless God wipes away the memories of his people. I know I couldn't be happy in heaven if I knew my friends were burning in hell. Heaven doesn't really seem like a peachy place unless GAWD wipes away everyone's memories of people they love.

-Nick

[Melkor]

Yeah, it kinda goes back to that "is everyone in heaven a robot" free will thread still rolling around somewhere around here....

I mean, the typical "Christian" idea of "Heaven" doesn't sound like a very nice place to me.... even if "God" DOES exist and Heaven is anything remotely like what most Christians proclaim it is, I wouldn't want any part of it.

[Rhea]

I'm interested, too. I'd like replies to include scriptural references, please.

[tdekeyser]

My wife (ex-fundy) tells me that Heaven is described as the happiest place you can think of and is taylored to you.

Then this would mean that I get all the freeways to myself on the fastest motorcycle I can find, the best weather and 100 HOT chicks right? This would be MY heaven. Is this what I will get?

[Fenton Mulley]

Originally posted by tdekeyser
I never could get a straight answer....

Don`t hold your breath.

All I`ve been able to ascertain so far is:
1.) You don`t have to work much (or at all)
2.)There are no welfare babies to pay for.
3.)All your money is YOURS to keep,but theres no mention of how you get it or what there is to spend it on.
4.)Everybody might be naked.
5.)Theres A LOT of serving going on,but the nature of this serving is a complete mystery.

[tdekeyser]

Originally posted by Fenton Mulley
Don`t hold your breath.

All I`ve been able to ascertain so far is:
1.) You don`t have to work much (or at all)
2.)There are no welfare babies to pay for.
3.)All your money is YOURS to keep,but theres no mention of how you get it or what there is to spend it on.
4.)Everybody might be naked.
5.)Theres A LOT of serving going on,but the nature of this serving is a complete mystery.

WEIRD!!

I think I'll pass on this trip.......

[Amos]

The streets are paved with gold, so work becomes a pleasure and not a pain.

There is no sickess so health is assured to a ripe old age and death will just be the end of another day with nothing to look forward to (nobody owes you a thing).

Your money is yours because guilt is gone.

Not naked but transparent. You can see right 'trough' people.

All desires are gone while yet all is there for our pleasue only.

There is no service but only a silent ache towards the protection of the weakest member of society.

[Jayjay]

I'd like to know what the "pecking order" in heaven is going to be. Some christians I talked to suspected that aborted babies might be second-class citizens in heaven because they never had the chance to live in the real world. Also, will everyone be equally pious in heaven, or is there still need for priests and churches?

[tdekeyser]

It sounds like a huge Christian party. One with gods words posted averywhere and wild judgements on what is moral. This thought makes me want to run away.

I would re-think heaven if it went like this:

Awesome freethinking people with love for everyone, lots of laughing and joking around. Everyone is smiling and plenty of drugs on the tables that have no side effects! ha ha ha ha!

That would be COOL :D

[lunachick]

What is SOOO great about Heven?

Umm, that it's spelt with an 'a'. ;):D

And that it's full of amazing star clusters, galaxies, planets, and other wonderful space stuff. :)

[philechat]

Heaven: According to Aquinas and Tertullian, the place where people gain pleasure by seeing Pagans burn in Hell.

[Tom Sawyer]

Heaven: According to Aquinas and Tertullian, the place where people gain pleasure by seeing Pagans burn in Hell.

Well sure, it sounds like it would be a lot of fun sitting up on a cloud and laughing about all the poor sods getting their flesh flayed off by demonic hordes, but I wouldn't that get a bit old after the first few hundred years?

I mean, how many times can you see someone get thier intestines ripped out and fed to them? I mean sure, it's entertaining for the first bit, but eventually it would be sort of "been there, done that". It's like seeing a big car chase in a movie for the first time, which is very exciting. After seeing a thousand car chases, though, they just don't hold the same interest anymore.

I just think the whole thing would get old fast. Then what are you going to do for the next trillion years?

[Travis]

Ever seen it?

[lunachick]

Originally posted by Travis
What Dreams May Come - Ever seen it?

Yes. And it's an AWFUL film! The visuals are spectacular, but the plot is pulp.

[Amie]

Originally posted by tdekeyser
What is SOOO wonderful about heaven? What will I be getting if I turn myself over to Jesus? eternal bliss :)

[Abacus]

Will there be sexual intercourse in Heaven?

[oriecat]

Originally posted by Amos
The streets are paved with gold

Why gold? What's so great about gold? I personally don't like the look of gold. Why can't they be silver or platinum or something pretty? Why not paved with crushed emeralds? That would look nice. But no, it's always gold...

[Infidelettante]

Originally posted by philechat
Heaven: According to Aquinas and Tertullian, the place where people gain pleasure by seeing Pagans burn in Hell.

Oh, ouch, that hurt

JT

[lpetrich]

Originally posted by Abacus
Will there be sexual intercourse in Heaven?
That's a place where Islam is ahead of Xianity -- according to Islamic tradition, men will have 100 times the usual sexual potency, and will get harems of lovelies created just for them. Not only will they have women with perpetually-renewing virginity, they will get lots of cute boy servants.

That's a subtext of the kamikaze-hijacker briefing letter -- "Remember, boys, if we succeed, we'll get laid really good in the next world."

I note that there are lots of other goodies in the Islamic Paradise, like milk that does not spoil, wine that does not cause drunkenness, lots of water and gardens, and so forth.

[Abacus]

Originally posted by lpetrich
I note that there are lots of other goodies in the Islamic Paradise, like milk that does not spoil, wine that does not cause drunkenness, lots of water and gardens, and so forth.

It sounds too good to be true. Like Sugar Candy Mountain.

[Amos]

Originally posted by oriecat
Why gold?

Because gold is sought in Gen.2:12. It means that when we are in heaven it is easy to make a living.

[atheist_in_foxhole]

Make a living in heaven?! What if you can't find a job? Can you collect unemployment?

[Jayjay]

Originally posted by atheist_in_foxhole
Make a living in heaven?! What if you can't find a job? Can you collect unemployment?
Sorry, no. The only form of social wellfare in heaven is faith-based charities. Or maybe I'm thinking of hell...?

[Gregg]

Originally posted by tdekeyser
What is this 'gift package' supposed to have in it for believers? What is SOOO wonderful about heaven? What will I be getting if I turn myself over to Jesus?

I never could get a straight answer....

Early Christians didn't really believe in a "We shall gather by the river" or a "Family Circus" type of heaven. Rather, they believed that "heaven," or a copy of the Heavenly Jerusalem, would be established on Earth. The redeemed would live forever in resurrected and apparently sexless bodies ("In the resurrection they are neither male nor female, but are like the angels in heaven") and everyone would be more or less equal, although some seem to have believed that the existing order of things would be turned upside down, and those who were the least before would be the greatest after the resurrection and vice versa. Finally, there would be no sickness, suffering, death, crying, etc.

Well, except for the po' folks suffering in Hell, although it's not clear that all early Christians believed in this. Some of them may have held the more traditional image of Sheol, a gray, melancholy place; others may have felt that sinners met oblivion (consumed by the Lake of Fire).

[The Naked Mage]

Originally posted by Ipetrich:

I note that there are lots of other goodies in the Islamic Paradise, like milk that does not spoil, wine that does not cause drunkenness, lots of water and gardens, and so forth.

Snoooooore. Those Mesozoic barbarians had such stunted imaginations.

Maybe we should just change the names of the Torah, the New Testament, and the Qu'ran to "Low Expectations: A Novel in Three Parts".

[Rhea]

:notworthy

Chuckling out loud at my desk. Poetry in motion.

[trientalis]

Re: Islamic Paradise

So the men get oodles of virgins. Nifty. What do the women get?

[Chrestomathy]

...me!;)

[Gemma Therese]

Originally posted by tdekeyser
What is this 'gift package' supposed to have in it for believers? What is SOOO wonderful about heaven? What will I be getting if I turn myself over to Jesus?

I never could get a straight answer....

The Beatific Vision.

Gemma Therese

[Amos]

That is what gets you into heaven.

[HaysooChreesto!]

None of you are asking the pertinent questions about Heaven. First, are there flying cars? I want me a fucking flying car in the worst way.
Second, if there are flying cars, I want to be able to put in on autopilot, set up a keg of Guiness in the backseat, watch football, and turn up the stereo while cruising the golden streets and highways along the divine beaches of God's Eternal Pimp Pad.

Really people, get it together. This is an important topic.

One more thing; I don't want to suffer from hangovers there either.

[Rhea]

The Beatific Vision.

Gemma Therese
What's a Beatific Vision?
(Is it like dropping acid and watching TRON?)

[Amos]

Originally posted by Rhea
What's a Beatific Vision?
(Is it like dropping acid and watching TRON?)

Here's one by Thomas Hardy. Regretfully I must tell you that Hardy was a Catholic. What he does here is compare the human pride of our ego with the Titanic and the Iceberg (capital I) with the Immanent will that guides our journey of faith along the path of Catholic Indoctriantion. Salemadrine fire is the vivid Eve of our conscious mind and so on. Beautiful lines from a very colorful old rustic poet. Enjoy.


Thomas Hardy


The Convergence of the Twain
(Lines on the loss of the "Titanic")

I

In a solitude of the sea
Deep from human vanity,
And the Pride of Life that planned her, stilly couches she.

II

Steel chambers, late the pyres
Of her salamandrine fires,
Cold currents thrid, and turn to rhythmic tidal lyres.

III

Over the mirrors meant
To glass the opulent
The sea-worm crawls - grotesque, slimed, dumb, indifferent.

IV

Jewels in joy designed
To ravish the sensuous mind
Lie lightless, all their sparkles bleared and black and blind.

V

Dim moon-eyed fishes near
Gaze at the gilded gear
And query: "What does this vaingloriousness down here?"

VI

Well: while was fashioning
This creature of cleaving wing,
The Immanent Will that stirs and urges everything

VII

Prepared a sinister mate
For her - so gaily great--
A Shape of Ice, for the time far and dissociate.

VIII

And as the smart ship grew
In stature, grace, and hue,
In shadowy silent distance grew the Iceberg too.

IX

Alien they seemed to be;
No mortal eye could see
The intimate welding of their later history,

X

Or sign that they were bent
By paths coincident
On being anon twin halves of one august event,

XI

Till the Spinner of the Years
Said "Now!" And each one hears,
And consummation comes, and jars two hemispheres.

The two hemispheres are our left and rigth brain and so the TOK and TOL are united once again and Paradise is restored.

[Amie]

Originally posted by Rhea
What's a Beatific Vision? Hi Rhea,
it is when we have a knowledge of God in heaven as opposed to what the human mind here on earth "believes". Also it is in the presence of the angels, the saints and the other souls in heaven where we have eternal bliss...
beatific refers to beholding God up close which allows us to be bestowed with perfect peace and happiness...

[Infinity Lover]

Ah... that reminds me of that time, when I was dropping acid while watching Tron. :)

[Amos]

Originally posted by Amie
Hi Rhea,
it is when we have a knowledge of God in heaven as opposed to what the human mind here on earth "believes". Also it is in the presence of the angels, the saints and the other souls in heaven where we have eternal bliss...
beatific refers to beholding God up close which allows us to be bestowed with perfect peace and happiness...


The Beatific Vision itself is really a description of the transformation moment when we meet God face to face and this is the convergence fo the twain in Hardy's poem. Your post, Amie, is the result of this vision and will follow afterwards.

In protestant trickery a small version of this vision is extracted and this is what sends them into the up/down-repent/rebel-love/hate mode that urges them to convert the world around them (with the appetite of a wolf and slyness of a fox, I might add). It can/will cause permanent delusion in the mind of the believer and is called the sin against the HS because of this. The spread of this psychotic perversion should have no rights in a nation where sanity must prevail.

[lpetrich]

Originally posted by trientalis
Re: Islamic Paradise

So the men get oodles of virgins. Nifty. What do the women get?
It's been hard for me to find anything on that subject, but some Muslims believe that married women will get to be with ther husbands, and unmarried ones will get to choose a husband for themselves. Of course, they'd have to compete with their husbands' new harems...

[Amos]

Originally posted by lpetrich
. Of course, they'd have to compete with their husbands' new harems...

I was in Europe in Dec. of 2002 and the joke there was that only fundy Americans believe that Muslims get real virgins in heaven.

[ashibaka]

Originally posted by Amos
In protestant trickery a small version of this vision is extracted and this is what sends them into the up/down-repent/rebel-love/hate mode that urges them to convert the world around them (with the appetite of a wolf and slyness of a fox, I might add). It can/will cause permanent delusion in the mind of the believer and is called the sin against the HS because of this. The spread of this psychotic perversion should have no rights in a nation where sanity must prevail.

Nota bene, Protestants. Nudge nudge.

[Sue Sponte]

If the non-virgins are in hell, can it really be so bad? ;)

[Rousseau_CHN]

beatific refers to beholding God up close

The seraphim are said to have eyes that are inflamed. So it's pretty much


like dropping acid (in your eyes) and watching TRON (?)


What's Tron?

(Actually, my Mother-in-Law claims that thier whole bodies are in flame, because of their love for God. So it's more like dousing your whole body with gasoline.)

[sakrilege]

Originally posted by I ate Pascal's Wafer
Hehe. Perhaps the great thing about heaven is that you will get to kiss the big JC's ass for eternity.
The closest examples on earth would be Hitler's Nazi Germany, Stalin's USSR, Pol Pot's Cambodia. Sweet.

[Rousseau_CHN]

72 virgins. Does that mean 72 in-laws?

[CALDONIA]

When we're in Heaven, we will still be interrupted at dinnertime by annoying calls from telemarketers?

Just curious.

[Gregg]

Originally posted by Rousseau_CHN
What's Tron?

Early 80's Disney movie starring Jeff Bridges and Bruce Boxleitner. One of the first films to make extensive use of computer animation. The LightCycle race is a lot of fun.

Gregg

[Christian]

God. :)

Ps 16:11, Ps 27:4, Rev 21:22-25

Respectfully,

Christian

[Magus55]

Here is a good description of what Heaven will be like, at least based on scripture since we don't know the full extent of it.

http://www.biblestudyplanet.com/s1.htm

[Lobstrosity]

WE WILL NOT BE SUBJECT TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS
Have you considered how annoying this would be? Seriously, try thinking about it for a minute. What would life be like without any physical rules? It's the laws of physics that let us make predictions as to what the consequences of our actions will be. Without laws of phyics you will have no idea what will happen at any given instant. It would be impossible to do anything. I suspect what they meant to write was that you will subject to entirely new laws of physics, but I think they would still view that as too restrictive for a place as mystical as Heaven.

And Revelation 22:2 tells us that in heaven there will be a tree of life that bears twelve different kinds of fruit each month. There may be a feast each month when this tree blooms.
Don't you find it a bit odd that there are "months" in heaven? After all, there are months on Earth because the moon takes four weeks to orbit the Earth. Why should the motions of the moon around the Earth have any impact on how time is measured in Heaven? Also, why would anyone care about a monthly feast when you can eat whatever you want whenever you want already?


Doesn't this story of Heaven remind you of anything? Think back. Remember Santa? Remember how happy he made you and how much fun he was to believe in? Remember how he was just too good to be true? Doesn't Heaven remind you of that just a tiny bit?

[Treacle Worshipper]

Originally posted by Fenton Mulley
3.)All your money is YOURS to keep,but theres no mention of how you get it or what there is to spend it on.
and by Amos
Your money is yours because guilt is gone.
There's money in heaven? :eek: What would you need money for? I thought god took care of all the food/clothes/needs stuff.

Quote Ipetrich:
I note that there are lots of other goodies in the Islamic Paradise, like [...] wine that does not cause drunkenness
And what's the point of that? (Is there Guinness?)
TW

[philechat]

Hardy is hardly religious. He (and Joyce) in their "beatific vision" ;) both abandoned religion as a result. Joyce particularly is quite critical of the Church.

[lpetrich]

Originally posted by Treacle Worshipper
Quote Ipetrich:
I note that there are lots of other goodies in the Islamic Paradise, like [...] wine that does not cause drunkenness
And what's the point of that? (Is there Guinness?)

So the point of drinking wine is to get drunk?

And I'm sure that the Islamic Paradise may also have some beer for those who like it.

Koran 37:40-48
But the true servants of Allah shall be well provided for,...they shall be served with goblet filled at a gushing fountain, white and delicious to those who drink it. It will neither dull their senses nor befuddle them.

For more, see Islam's X-Rated Paradise (http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/heaven.html).

[Treacle Worshipper]

Originally posted by lpetrich
So the point of drinking wine is to get drunk?
No, I was just kidding. Some wine does actually taste quite nice. Vodka is for getting drunk on :D

And I'm sure that the Islamic Paradise may also have some beer for those who like it.
Good for them! It doesn't matter, as I don't expect to be going there anyway.

(BTW, Guinness is stout, not beer. Sorry.)

Would an Xian, or someone, please explain to me why there will be money in the Xian heaven? Thanks.
TW

[Radorth]

You can get a good idea of what heaven is like by reading after death experiences and the writings of mystics and poets like Masefield. You will never get a "straight answer" to something so ineffable without a lot of study. I've been there and I find it virtually impossible to describe. I'd get busted for proselytizing anyway.

A small Masefield outtake:

I did not think, I did not strive

The deep peace burnt my me alive.

Rad

[HelenM]

Originally posted by Radorth
You can get a good idea of what heaven is like by reading after death experiences and the writings of mystics and poets like Masefield. You will never get a "straight answer" to something so ineffable without a lot of study. I've been there

heaven? You've been to heaven?

and I find it virtually impossible to describe. I'd get busted for proselytizing anyway.

Elaborating on what you believe isn't 'proselytizing' per se.

Helen

[Radorth]

I've been busted twice for relating my testimony(s), and I am loathe to do it here anyway, for other reasons which ought to be apparent.

Rad

[HelenM]

Ok, fair enough. I didn't pick up before on you having had an NDE, if that is what you were referring to. But then I only read a fraction of the posts on IIDB.

Helen

[Magus55]

Treacle, there isn't money in the Christian Heaven, no purpose for it. New Jerusalem is built by gold and gems but its not used for money or material value.

Lobs,

Heaven is a spiritual world. In the sense we understand it, there is no blood or flesh in Heaven. Yes you have all your senses, and ability to eat and drink but your body isn't run by organ systems. The laws of physics only apply to the material universe. Heaven isn't required to be under those laws. Since God made them, he can break them too. Now will physics apply in Heaven? I guess its possible depending on how God sets it up. He may create a whole new set of laws that apply to Heaven that would be impossible in our universe. No one knows.

And no it wouldn't be annoying, you have your mind and thoughts in Heaven. And since there is nothing bad in Heaven, there won't be any tragic surprises that you need to be prepared for. Jesus defied the laws of physics quite easily and it didn't cause him problems. For an omnipotent God, its not hard to create a spiritual city that is outside the laws of physics.

With regaurd to the months, the time may be just taken from Earth to give us a guide as to when great feasts or events take place. and the purpose of the tree isn't to eat on specific days, its a ceremony that takes place 12 times every blooming "season".

Remember, Heaven's complete complexity and wonder is incomprehensible to us. Heaven is mentioned less in the Bible than Hell ( because it was more important for Jesus to explain Hell in order to keep you out ). The little bit of Heaven that is mentioned in the bible is such a small part of what Heaven will really be. Heaven's true majesty cannot be described by humans.

[Muad'Dib]

Originally posted by Radorth
I've been there and I find it virtually impossible to describe. I'd get busted for proselytizing anyway. Hi Radorth,

What do you mean when you say you've been to heaven? Just curious, I've never heard anyone say that before.

Thanks,
Muad'Dib

[spurly]

Here's the greatest part of heaven for me - being with God forever. He is the reason for my existence. He is the love of my life. He is what keeps me going. But down here on earth I am separated from him because of my fallen nature. It has been partically redeemed, and now His Holy Spirit lives inside of me. But that is nothing compared to what life will be like when I can live eternally in his presence celebrating my relationship with Him.

Kevin

[spurly]

By the way, I have a different view on heaven than many Christians. I think there is a possibility that heaven will be here on earth. The New Jerusalem was seen coming out of heaven, to earth.

In the beginning, we had heaven on earth. What is that? A relationship with God that is unhindered by sin, guilt, shame, death, etc.

In the end, according the the book of Revelation, we find ourselves back in a perfect garden paradise again. My conclusion, as a student of Scripture, is that heaven very well may be set up here on earth after it has been purged and purified with fire.

An aside: Someone asked earlier how there could be "months" in heaven. John was simply using terms that the people on this side of heaven coud relate to. It's like when someone comes back from a foreign country and tries to put what he has seen into words. Words can never really explain it. That's the dilemma John had.

Kevin

[spacedOut]

Author Bruce Wilkenson (Prayer of Jabez fame) offers his view of heaven in his new cash cow (books, videos, tapes, DVDs, study guides, you name it, he'll sell it) "A Life God Rewards".

After reading it, I was more confused than anything. Apparently, our works here on earth determine the rewards we get in heaven (our belief is enough to get us in the door, er...gate). But what are the rewards? (I'd be happy with a new truck and a dog to go in the back.) According to the book, if you have good works, which by the way are not defined, you get to be a ruler. But apparently the only activity going on in heaven is serving. So I don't know if that means if you have good works, you get to be a ruler and don't have to serve, or you get to be a ruler in addition to serving...

Personally, I don't think I want to be a ruler (less stress). And I wonder what they do with you if you turn out to be a lousy servant???

[Spaz]

servants and rulers? shouldn't heaven be free? I think it'd get boring real fast if there were no rules and you could have anything you wanted, because after you "have everything you want" what is there?

[cricket]

I did not think, I did not strive

The deep peace burnt my me alive.

That's an interesting verse.

I am curious about what you've experienced, Radorth. Have you had some type of NDE?

[Lobstrosity]

Ooooh, Near Death Experience! I always feel so good inside when I decode these forum acronyms (you guys actually use quite a lot of them--it can be semi-intimidating sometimes for someone wholly new to the boards, but so far I think I've been pretty good about figuring them all out).

[lpetrich]

There's a certain problem with the concept of Heaven that is illustrated by a certain Twilight Zone episode. (http://www.epinions.com/tele-review-7BFD-D751EEA-396BE30F-prod2) (plot summary repeated from that URL)

"A Nice Place To Visit"

Rocky Valentine (Larry Blyden) is a petty thief who has lived the peaks and valleys of life - mostly the valleys. He is shot to death by a cop while attempting a heist. He realizes he's in the afterlife and is befriended by a white-haired, omnipresent man named Pip (Sebastian Cabot). Pip introduces himself as his servant and will give Rocky whatever he desires. Rocky tests Pip a few times as he is suspicious, but Pip comes through and Rocky figures he's in Heaven, figuratively and literally. Rocky wins every contest he enters, wins every bet he places, and picks up every woman he hits on. At one point a cop walks into the picture, and is considerably taller and stronger than Rocky. Rocky calls on Pip to right this, and Pip obliges, turning the cop into an easily bullied midget. Rocky is beside himself in glee.

The scene moves to a month later, and paradise is lost. Pip is still available when needed, nevertheless Rocky is extremely bored and distraught. It seems that constant winning is no more fun than constant losing. Even when Pip tells Rocky he can rig a loss it's not enough as Rocky knows that he is still getting his wish. Rocky decides that he doesn't want to be here any more and begs Pip to send him to "The Other Place" (Apparently the 1960 Network Censors had a problem with saying "Hell"). Pip then asks why. Rocky tells Pip that he doesn't feel like he belongs in Heaven and deserves to go to The Other Place. Pip laughs uproariously and evilly and tells Rocky that this IS the other place.

[Radorth]

So I don't know if that means if you have good works, you get to be a ruler and don't have to serve, or you get to be a ruler in addition to serving...

A ruler in addition to serving. Righteous rulers have the attitude of servants- giving up themselves for the well-being of others. Of course when everybody does that you have a system unimaginably more heavenly than anything earthy eyes have ever seen.

I am curious about what you've experienced, Radorth. Have you had some type of NDE?

No I wasn't in a physical accident or anything. Ironically I had to ask God to please stop whatever he was doing because I was absolutely sure it would kill me even though it was not really "emotional" at all. Finney had something similar happen, if you care to read his account, although he does not feel he was actually IN the "third heaven" as Paul was. (I won't go farther describing my own excursion) The verse I quoted gives a good hint, if you multiply it by 100. Mystical experience testimonies and poetry are great reading, but fall short of describing heaven, even when undertaken by people much more articulate than I.

Rad

[Treacle Worshipper]

Originally posted by Magus55
Treacle, there isn't money in the Christian Heaven, no purpose for it. New Jerusalem is built by gold and gems but its not used for money or material value.
Well, that's what I thought. That makes sense, that there would be no use for money in heaven. But then folks say stuff like this: Originally posted by Fenton Mulley
3.)All your money is YOURS to keep,but theres no mention of how you get it or what there is to spend it on.
and by Amos
Your money is yours because guilt is gone.
Now, Fenton says he got his ideas from talking to Xians. (At least, that's what I think he means.) Amos is an Xian. You, Magus, are an Xian. I'm just confused. Who's right?
TW

[Magus55]

Well just because Fenton heard it doesn't mean he's right and no clue where Amos got that idea. Maybe one of his special Catholic ideas?

There are rewards in Heaven for good deeds on Earth, but not money like you'd think of on Earth. You don't get a paycheck and go to the local department store in Heaven and shop...

[MyKell]

what do you get instead of paychecks Magus??? :D

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by Magus55
Well just because Fenton heard it doesn't mean he's right and no clue where Amos got that idea. Maybe one of his special Catholic ideas?

There are rewards in Heaven for good deeds on Earth, but not money like you'd think of on Earth. You don't get a paycheck and go to the local department store in Heaven and shop...

Well, that settles it. If there's no shopping, I'm not going.

[Athius]

This is rather a waste of discussion. Although I find some posts very funny and imaginitive, what is the point of debating what a place that doesn't even exist looks like. Since it doesn't exist noone knows how it is. End of story. Someone mentioned near death experiences. Those have been proven wrong by medical science. "Near death experiences" are rather normal and expected hallucinations that people see as a result of the neural networks of their brains deteriorating at the last moments of their life.

Eventhough heaven isn't real, I just like to comment on several things that don't make sense about what is promised in heaven. First of all like someone already mentioned, how can you ever be happy when you know that for example your dad is being teared up to pieces, suffering, being tortured and bleeding to death over and over? I would be horrified, I would want to rebel against this mother f****** god. Second we humans are supposed to be much less "intelligent" and "sympathetic" than god and yet we have come to the conclusion that Cruel and Unusual punishment is not the a justified punishment for any crime. You can commit the greatest atrocities the world has known and by civilized (i.e. American) law you would only be put to death, never tortured, why does this "intelligent" and "all knowing" and "all powerfull" god even think in his retarted mind for a second to create a place where people get brutally and savagely tortured forever and ever. What kind of sick mother f****** psycho would come up with that idea? You know what god reminds me of? Stalin, Saddam, Hitler, or any other brutal dictator that promised great life for his followers and torture and death to the people against him. If there really is a god and heaven or hell (which there isn't) then god is not all benevolent, and not all powerfull. He's an insecure, ill savage who gets an erection by seeing his enemies burn to death while his followers kiss his ass all day. That's all I have to say for now. Sorry if I sounded a bit angry, because I really get irritated every time I think about how ridiculous the idea of god is.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by UCE
This is rather a waste of discussion. Although I find some posts very funny and imaginitive, what is the point of debating what a place that doesn't even exist looks like. Since it doesn't exist noone knows how it is. End of story. Someone mentioned near death experiences. Those have been proven wrong by medical science. "Near death experiences" are rather normal and expected hallucinations that people see as a result of the neural networks of their brains deteriorating at the last moments of their life.

Eventhough heaven isn't real, I just like to comment on several things that don't make sense about what is promised in heaven. First of all like someone already mentioned, how can you ever be happy when you know that for example your dad is being teared up to pieces, suffering, being tortured and bleeding to death over and over? I would be horrified, I would want to rebel against this mother f****** god. Second we humans are supposed to be much less "intelligent" and "sympathetic" than god and yet we have come to the conclusion that Cruel and Unusual punishment is not the a justified punishment for any crime. You can commit the greatest atrocities the world has known and by civilized (i.e. American) law you would only be put to death, never tortured, why does this "intelligent" and "all knowing" and "all powerfull" god even think in his retarted mind for a second to create a place where people get brutally and savagely tortured forever and ever. What kind of sick mother f****** psycho would come up with that idea? You know what god reminds me of? Stalin, Saddam, Hitler, or any other brutal dictator that promised great life for his followers and torture and death to the people against him. If there really is a god and heaven or hell (which there isn't) then god is not all benevolent, and not all powerfull. He's an insecure, ill savage who gets an erection by seeing his enemies burn to death while his followers kiss his ass all day. That's all I have to say for now. Sorry if I sounded a bit angry, because I really get irritated every time I think about how ridiculous the idea of god is.

Oh so Heaven and God don't exist? Prove it.. :rolleyes:

Stop saying stupid, ignorant statements when you have no freakin clue whether he exists or not. And instead of cussing out a God you don't even believe in, how about save us the wasted time we spent reading your insulting, ignorant post and just not reply? Since nothing of any value or insightful ideas came out of that post, don't bother.

[winstonjen]

Originally posted by Magus55
Oh so Heaven and God don't exist? Prove it.. :rolleyes:


Fallacy of reversing the burden of proof. You are making the positive assertion that there IS a heaven and a god, so YOU must prove it. Believe what you will, just don't expect to convince people otherwise without solid logic.

If there was a heaven, why create a hell to send people there? Why not just pop everyone in heaven to begin with and be done with it?

[Magus55]

Originally posted by winstonjen
Fallacy of reversing the burden of proof. You are making the positive assertion that there IS a heaven and a god, so YOU must prove it. Believe what you will, just don't expect to convince people otherwise without solid logic.

If there was a heaven, why create a hell to send people there? Why not just pop everyone in heaven to begin with and be done with it?

First of all, by making the solid claim as though its a proven fact that God doesn't exist, the burden of proof moves to you. You can't solidly say God doesn't exist, and not back it up. We never say God 100% exists without a doubt, we say we believe God exists without a doubt.

Humans were in heaven originally, its called the Garden of Eden, and all of humanity would have stayed there if Adam and Eve didn't disobey God, but since they did and every human to follow would disobey God too, Hell became their destination to share with Satan. Quite tragic we had to go and blow it. Fortunately God wasn't content in letting in end with us sinning our way to Hell, he gave us a way to escape. Unfortunately so many people choose to reject it. None the less, he offered his gift - and he isn't gonna force you to accept it.

[winstonjen]

Originally posted by Magus55
First of all, by making the solid claim as though its a proven fact that God doesn't exist, the burden of proof moves to you. You can't solidly say God doesn't exist, and not back it up. We never say God 100% exists without a doubt, we say we believe God exists without a doubt.


Atheism is merely a lack of belief, a lack of asserting somthing. We do not believe in a god or heaven until we have been given sufficient evidence.

Humans were in heaven originally, its called the Garden of Eden

If it WAS heaven, why not call it heaven and be done with it?

, and all of humanity would have stayed there if Adam and Eve didn't disobey God, but since they did and every human to follow would disobey God too, Hell became their destination to share with Satan. Quite tragic we had to go and blow it.

Make up your mind. First you say that Adam and Eve disobeyed god, now you are saying that WE went and blew it?

Fortunately God wasn't content in letting in end with us sinning our way to Hell, he gave us a way to escape. Unfortunately so many people choose to reject it. None the less, he offered his gift - and he isn't gonna force you to accept it.

It was god who put the forbidden fruit and tree in the garden to begin with. It seems to me like god wanted humanity to fall and be condemned. Doesn't sound like a god I would like. Hell seems better the more I read the bible and listen to theists.

[philechat]

Magus55:

We can't say 100% that IPU, Zeus, Vishnu, Jade Emperor, Allah, Mithra, and the Raelian aliens do not exist either. What is your point? :rolleyes:

[oriecat]

Ok, so now you're making a positive assertion that Adam & Eve existed. Prove that. :p

[Magus55]

Atheism is merely a lack of belief, a lack of asserting somthing. We do not believe in a god or heaven until we have been given sufficient evidence.

UCE said God doesn't exist, not i believe God doesn't exist. It was a statement of fact, not belief.


Ok, so now you're making a positive assertion that Adam & Eve existed. Prove that.

I believe Adam and Eve existed, never said its 100% fact.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by philechat
Magus55:

We can't say 100% that IPU, Zeus, Vishnu, Jade Emperor, Allah, Mithra, and the Raelian aliens do not exist either. What is your point? :rolleyes:

My point was, UCE stated from fact God doesn't exist, thats illogical. You're right, we don't know 100% that those things don't exist, but Jesus had alot more things going for him that would make him believable to an open minded person over those other things.

There are no claims or historical documents on the existence of IPU or Zeus or Raelian Aliens. It is a historical fact that Jesus Christ in fact existed, and based on the fulfilled prophecies, eyewitness accounts, testimonies, historical accuracy, and survivability of Christianity, its more likely Jesus was in fact who he said he was and the other ones you mention with nothing even remotely close to the account of Jesus aren't real. Now to the atheist, no evidence aside from God standing in front of you is enough so its moot anyway.

[Dr Rick]

Originally posted by Magus55
First of all, by making the solid claim as though its a proven fact that God doesn't exist, the burden of proof moves to you. You can't solidly say God doesn't exist, and not back it up.

That's a strawman fallacy; winstonjen didn't make the claim that you argue against; he didn't assert "that God doesn't exist" nor did he "solidily say God doesn't exist."

You just made-up that argument.

We never say God 100% exists without a doubt, we say we believe God exists without a doubt.

Another strawman

Humans were in heaven originally, its called the Garden of Eden....

First of all, by making the solid claim as though its a proven fact, the burden of proof moves to you; so what evidence do you have that Eden is Heaven when Genesis has no such explicit account? The Bible has descriptions of Heaven and its "streets of gold" which do not match the Biblical description of Eden, so your assertion does not seem credible. You can't solidly say 'Humans were in heaven originally', and not back it up.

...and all of humanity would have stayed there if Adam and Eve didn't disobey God...

There is no justification for blaming "all of humanity" for the transgressions of just two nincompoops

...but since they did and every human to follow would disobey God too. Hell became their destination to share with Satan.

So any time two people make a bad decision, every human to follow must pay for it?

Quite tragic we had to go and blow it.

What do you mean: "we?"

Fortunately God wasn't content in letting in end with us sinning our way to Hell...

That would be too easy, and what fun is there is that?
There's just no satisfying an omnipotent sadist; to make it more "sporting,' He devised a plan that would confuse almost everyone and send almost every one to Hell.

...he offered his gift - and he isn't gonna force you to accept it.

He'll just subject you to eternal torment like He does with the rest of humanity.

Never forget: God loves you; that's obviously why most of us must burn in Hell forever.

[philechat]

Magus55:

Though I am no expert on early Christian history (go to BC&A forum and let them deal with you), I personally know of numerous eyewitness accounts (visions) of many religion, notably in Buddhism, Islam, Taiwanese folk religion, Ancient Greco-Roman Paganism, and tribal animism. As for "fulfilled prophecy", I think Jesus was invented by the early Christian believers to fit in the OT scheme. It is not surprising given the similar strategy used by the Muslims several hundred years later.

Note what Giddon wrote in The Fall and Decline of the Roman Empire, chapter 15:

"During the age of Christ, of his apostles, and of their first diciples, the doctrines which they preached was confirmed by innumerable prodigies. The lame walked, the blind saw, the sick were healed, and the dead were raised, daemons were expelled, and the laws of nature were frequently suspended for the benefit of the church. But the sages of Greece and Rome turned aside from the awful spectacle, and, pursuing the ordinary occupations of life and study, appeared unconscious of any alterations in the moral or physical government of the world. Under the reign of Tiberius, the whole earth, or at least a celebrated province of the Roman empire, was involved in a preternatural darkness of three hours. Even this miraculous event, which ought to have excited the wonder, the curiosity, and the devotion of mankind, passed without notive in the age of science and history. It happened during the lifetime of Seneca and the elder Pliny, who must have experienced the immediate effects, or received the earliest intelligence, of the prodigy. Each of the philosophers, in a laborious work, has recorded all the great phenomena of Nature, earthquakes, meteors, comets, and eclipses, which his indefatigable curiosity could collect. Both the one and the other have omitted to mention the greatest phenomenon to which the mortal eye have been witness since the creation of the globe. A distinct chapter of Pliny is designed for eclipses of an extraordinary nature and unusual duration; but he contends himself with describing the singular defect of light which followed the murder of Caesar, when, during th egreatest part of a year, the orb of the sun appeared pale and without splendor. This season of obscurity, which cannot surely be compared with preternatural darkness of the Passion, had been already celebrated by most of the poets and historians of that memorable age. "

To paraphrase, the Pagan historians and philosophers, who recorded the historical and natural events in Jesus' time, failed to mention any of the miracles that supposedly happened during the Passion, or all the miracles large and small worked by Jesus. The "eclipse" that occurred during the Passion was unmentioned at all by the philosophers, whose lives were devoted to recording natural events. Could it be a Pagan conspiracy to fail to record unusual climatic patterns due to Christ's execution? :eek:

[lpetrich]

Magus55:
There are no claims or historical documents on the existence of IPU or Zeus or Raelian Aliens.

Bull feces.

Though I'm not sure about the IPU or Raelian aliens, there is an abundance of "evidence" for the existence of the Olympian deities, who were led by one of their number, Zeus.

* Involvement in the creation of the Universe. Hesiod's Theogony. Zeus, Ruler of the Universe, had overthrown its previous ruler, his father the Titan Kronos. Who, in turn, had overthrown its previous ruler, his father Ouranos. Who had emerged from the primordial void.

* Divine intervention in history. The Iliad, the Odyssey, and other such documents are full of Olympian intervention in history, such as the Olympians taking sides in the Trojan War.

Heinrich Schliemann caused a sensation when he discovered a city at where the Iliad had described Troy as being located. So this means that the Iliad contains some real history. And could it also mean that the Iliad is correct about asserting the existence of the Olympians, Zeus and all?

Later archeological work would discover several other "mythological" places, like Mycenae, Tiryns, Pylos, and Knossos, and would confirm the presence of such items as bronze armor and boar's-tusk helmets. Archeologists even discovered a mazy "palace" at Knossos, and something weird with bulls there.

* Oracles. These were widely consulted; the most famous ones were Apollo's at Delphi and Zeus's at Dodona. They stayed in business for hundreds of years; why had they been in business for so long if the Olympians were pure fiction?

* Divine Parentage. Zeus, especially, had numerous offspring; it was not for nothing that he was called "Father Zeus". In fact, Pythagoras and Plato had supposedly had Apollo as their biological father, and Alexander the Great had supposedly had Zeus as his biological father. And there is an abundance of evidence for the existence of these gentlemen, meaning that we ought to give at least a little credence to the divine-parentage theory.

* Dreams and Visions. Lucretius, a skeptic about the Olympians, attempted to account for the dreams and visions that people would have of the Olympians -- which is an implicit acknowledgment of their reality.

[Magus55]

lpetrich, you believe all that about the olympian Gods but not the huge amount of more believable and specific info about Jesus? um ok.... :rolleyes:

We also know the parents of those famous people. Alexander the Great for example was the son of Philip of Macedon and Olypmias, princess of Epirus. So the theory of him being Zeus' son is a false theory. Greek Mythology is called mythology because its not real, and it fell apart with the Greek empire. There was nothing to hold up to the claim of olympian gods, so the religion died out.

The oracles stayed for hundreds of years? Christianity has stayed around for thousands of years and has only gotten stronger. Greek gods also never fulfilled any prophecies. If the greeks wanted them to be real, or make people believe in them, why not do what you all claim the apostles did and make up amazing prophecies and miracles about them?



* Visions. Lucretius, a skeptic about the Olympians, attempted to account for the visions that people would have of the Olympians -- which is an implicit acknowledgment of their reality.

So you see that as valid evidence for the olympian Gods, yet 500 witnesses to Jesus' ressurection, as well as followers recording his miracles and works dying for what they saw isn't good enough? the hypocrisy.....

The Bible contains more history and more accurately than the Illiad, yet you claim its false - so why even bring that up as possible evidence for Zeus?

You can't use the same objections that you have to the validity of the Bible and Jesus as your evidence for Zeus. Jesus and Zeus didn't both exist, and Jesus' existence and truth is alot more convincing.

[philechat]

Come on. Only 500 witnesses for Christ's resurrection? Just 2 years ago, more than 1000 Chinese in Shan-Xi saw Buddha sitting on a cloud shaped like a water-lily during a Buddhist festival (with the Buddha Finger). Thousands of Chinese believers in Falun Gong witnessed their cult leader Lee Hung-Zi performing healing miracles. I suppose by sheer number of contemperary witnesses, the Buddha and Lee Hung-Zi both beat Jesus?

[lpetrich]

Some more evidence:

* Early Christian Apologists. Though being violently opposed to the worship of the Olympians, they never bothered to deny the existence of those deities, almost as if they were aware of the reality of these deities.

* Cures. There were several temples of Asklepios, son of Apollo. One would go to such a temple and spend the night there there, and Asklepios would communicate a prescription in a dream. And Asklepios's temples have lots of testimonials on their walls.

* Greece Surviving the Persians. Persia never succeeded in conquering Greece in the Persian Wars of ~500 BCE despite the Persians having much bigger armed forces. Could it be that the Greek people were protected by some deities? And could those deities be the ones that they had worshipped?

Magus55:
lpetrich, you believe all that about the olympian Gods but not the huge amount of more believable and specific info about Jesus? um ok.... :rolleyes:

WHAT "huge amount"? There's much more on the activities of the Olympians than there is on Jesus Christ.

We also know the parents of those famous people. Alexander the Great for example was the son of Philip of Macedon and Olypmias, princess of Epirus. So the theory of him being Zeus' son is a false theory.

By the same token, Jesus Christ's biological father had been Joseph and not God.

Though Zeus could have taken the form of Philip of Macedon, AtG's father, and when he had sex with AtG's mother Olympias, the poor lady would never have known the difference.

Also, Pythagoras, Plato, and AtG had been great geniuses; could this mean that they had been the offspring of deities? Normal people could only produce other normal people, it would seem.

Greek Mythology is called mythology because its not real, and it fell apart with the Greek empire.

Why is it "not real"? This seems like a case of "they are not real because they are not real because they are not real"; do you have any better argument?

There was nothing to hold up to the claim of olympian gods, so the religion died out.

Except that they were worshipped long enough for their worship to be outlawed by Christian Emperors.

The oracles stayed for hundreds of years?

They lasted from when they are first recorded, about 500 BCE, to when they were outlawed. And given that the worship of the Olympians goes back to Mycenaean times, those oracles likely go back at least as far. So we have a period of from 2000-1600 BCE (Mycenaean emergence) to 300-500 CE (outlawing) -- which is as long as Christianity has lasted.

And the deities have even older antecedents. Zeus is likely Indo-European "Father Sky", worshipped in the eastern Ukraine about 4000-3000 BCE by the ancestral Indo-European speakers. And Artemis, the "Mistress of Animals" and helper of women giving birth, may have an antecedent in Catal Huyuk in western Turkey around 6000 BCE -- where there was a statuette of a woman giving birth with a big cat on each side.

So the worship of Zeus-ish deities lasted about 4000 years and that of Artemis-ish deities about 6500 years. So give us that old-time religion!

Greek gods also never fulfilled any prophecies.

What makes you so sure? Have you studied them?

So you see that as valid evidence for the olympian Gods, yet 500 witnesses to Jesus' ressurection, as well as followers recording his miracles and works dying for what they saw isn't good enough? the hypocrisy.....

Who were those 500 witnesses? Do we have their own words?

The Bible contains more history and more accurately than the Illiad, yet you claim its false - so why even bring that up as possible evidence for Zeus?

The Bible is more bulky than the Iliad, which does help it out, and it does contain some real history, but that's about it.

You can't use the same objections that you have to the validity of the Bible and Jesus as your evidence for Zeus. Jesus and Zeus didn't both exist, and Jesus' existence and truth is alot more convincing.

Jesus Christ could have been some obscure prophet who was exaggerated into some heroic founder figure -- or he could have been a myth.

[philechat]

Aw...lpetrich. You converted me to Hellenism already, given that Apollo was certainly the inspirer of all the greatest arts and philosophies in our world. Now I must worship him in addition to the glorious Dionysus ;) .

[Mad Kally]

I was told that not only are the streets paved with gold, but the seas will be made of crystal. This was meant literally. Just glass, no waves, no water, no sea gulls, just crystal. Oooh I can't wait. Where's my bikini?

Everyone's religion is a myth except the one each person believes in.. no matter how bizzare.

[oriecat]

Originally posted by Magus55
Greek Mythology is called mythology because its not real

And the bible is called Hebrew mythology for the same reason.



lpetrich: :notworthy

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by Magus55
Humans were in heaven originally, its called the Garden of Eden, and all of humanity would have stayed there if Adam and Eve didn't disobey God, but since they did and every human to follow would disobey God too, Hell became their destination to share with Satan. Quite tragic we had to go and blow it. Fortunately God wasn't content in letting in end with us sinning our way to Hell, he gave us a way to escape. Unfortunately so many people choose to reject it. None the less, he offered his gift - and he isn't gonna force you to accept it.
Oh so Heaven and God exist? Prove it.

Stop saying stupid, ignorant statements when you have no freakin clue whether he exists or not. And instead of talking about things you know nothing about, how about save us the wasted time we spent reading your ignorant post and just not reply? Since nothing of any value or insightful ideas came out of that post, don't bother.

And just for the record, I thought some of what UCE said was very insightful. He makes some excellent points. How do you think you'd feel if you went to Heaven but your wife, children, and parents were all suffering the most horrendous torture imaginable in Hell for all eternity? I bet you'd just be one happy happy guy, wouldntcha? Let's not forget that God allows Hell to exist. There's no reason why there must be a hell. God created everything. When will you Christians understand what you're own religion says? God's not some wimp who has no choice in the matter...he's GOD!

[spurly]

I ask, why do so many people get so caught up with the peripherals of what heaven will be like. The main point of heaven is that we will live in an unhindered relationship with God forever. And that is exciting.

Kevin

[openeyes]

Originally posted by spurly
I ask, why do so many people get so caught up with the peripherals of what heaven will be like. The main point of heaven is that we will live in an unhindered relationship with God forever. And that is exciting.

Kevin

Sure hope you're not passing up "real" excitement on earth waiting for that "unhindered relationship with God forever", a phrase I find totally meaningless. :confused:

[gravitybow]

Originally posted by spurly
I ask, why do so many people get so caught up with the peripherals of what heaven will be like.
The people who "get so caught up with" it are religionists of all faiths. The "peripherals" win converts and dazzle the faithful (Have you ever seen a Jehovah's Witnesses tract on paradise?). The peripherals can also entice the devout to do things like fly aircraft into skyscrapers. Do you believe the biblically-based peripherals are true, or are you content to see converts won with a falsehood?

[Radorth]

(Speaking of strawmen)

The peripherals can also entice the devout to do things like fly aircraft into skyscrapers.

He's right. The other day I became so obsessed with killing a Muslim spider in my basement that after a month of careful planning, I attacked it with chemical weapons.

I reported it to my pastor, who promised me I would have a window in my crypt one day.

My my. We're fresh out of intelligent arguments, so let's make inane comparisons between Muslim terrorists "kill for 10 virgins" philosophy and the example of Jesus and the apostles. I'm up for it.

I'm sure we'll see why nobody here is moving to a Muslim or atheist-founded country looking for heaven.

Rad

[the_cave]

Originally posted by tdekeyser
I would re-think heaven if it went like this:

Awesome freethinking people with love for everyone, lots of laughing and joking around. Everyone is smiling and plenty of drugs on the tables that have no side effects! ha ha ha ha!

That would be COOL :D

Huh? But it is like that! Except the drugs are love & happiness & a heightened aesthetic sensibility and the presence of the beloved & that sort of thing. In heaven, we won't need drugs--and they wouldn't have any affect anyway, because we'd be maximally happy.

As for the motorcycles, hey, anythings possible. No kidding. But in heaven, you might discover something even better than motorcycles...jeez, use your imagination, guys!

[the_cave]

Originally posted by lpetrich
Rocky is extremely bored and distraught. It seems that constant winning is no more fun than constant losing.

If losing as well as winning is what floats your boat, you would find yourself losing sometimes (to your delight) in heaven.

Originally posted by UCE
First of all like someone already mentioned, how can you ever be happy when you know that for example your dad is being teared up to pieces, suffering, being tortured and bleeding to death over and over? I would be horrified, I would want to rebel against this mother f****** god. Second we humans are supposed to be much less "intelligent" and "sympathetic" than god and yet we have come to the conclusion that Cruel and Unusual punishment is not the a justified punishment for any crime. You can commit the greatest atrocities the world has known and by civilized (i.e. American) law you would only be put to death, never tortured, why does this "intelligent" and "all knowing" and "all powerfull" god even think in his retarted mind for a second to create a place where people get brutally and savagely tortured forever and ever. What kind of sick mother f****** psycho would come up with that idea? You know what god reminds me of? Stalin, Saddam, Hitler, or any other brutal dictator that promised great life for his followers and torture and death to the people against him. If there really is a god and heaven or hell (which there isn't) then god is not all benevolent, and not all powerfull. He's an insecure, ill savage who gets an erection by seeing his enemies burn to death while his followers kiss his ass all day. That's all I have to say for now. Sorry if I sounded a bit angry, because I really get irritated every time I think about how ridiculous the idea of god is.

But what if there is a God and a heaven and a hell, but it's nothing like what you describe? No cruel and unusual punishment? Besides, I'm skeptical that our society forbids this "cruel and unusual punishment". We appear to be quite happy to allow criminals to suffer torments by their fellow criminals in, say, a maximum security prison. We just can't stomach it for some reason when the state does it. But if "bad" people do it to other "bad" people somewhere we can't see it, it's apparently perfectly acceptible.

[gravitybow]

Originally posted by Radorth
(Speaking of strawmen)...

...My my. We're fresh out of intelligent arguments, so let's make inane comparisons between Muslim terrorists "kill for 10 virgins" philosophy and the example of Jesus and the apostles. I'm up for it.

Looks like we're fresh out of reading comprehension, too. I didn't make any comparison to the example of Jesus and the apostles. I said all religions have peripherals. Where's the strawman? Are you saying folks have never been motivated to die for the greater rewards in an afterlife? They have.

How about giving an intelligent reason to believe streets of gold and crystal seas?

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Mad Kally
I was told that not only are the streets paved with gold, but the seas will be made of crystal. This was meant literally. Just glass, no waves, no water, no sea gulls, just crystal. Oooh I can't wait. Where's my bikini?

Everyone's religion is a myth except the one each person believes in.. no matter how bizzare.

You were told wrong. the seas are as CLEAR as crystal, not actually crystal.


Sure hope you're not passing up "real" excitement on earth waiting for that "unhindered relationship with God forever", a phrase I find totally meaningless.

And what do you consider "real" excitement on Earth? Christians are not mindless, boring, lifeless drones. We have fun, do fun things, laugh, party, etc etc. and in fact most Christians probably love life because its a gift from God and it has ultimate meaning, where as atheists.. its a gift from self mutating, tree swinging apes where the only ultimate meaning is decomposing.

[Bree]

Stop saying stupid, ignorant statements when you have no freakin clue whether he exists or not. And instead of cussing out a God you don't even believe in, how about save us the wasted time we spent reading your insulting, ignorant post and just not reply? Since nothing of any value or insightful ideas came out of that post, don't bother.
Please try to stay away from off-topic comments like these. If you have a beef with another person's posting style/belief system/favourite colour, please take it to PM.

[spurly]

Originally posted by gravitybow
The people who "get so caught up with" it are religionists of all faiths. The "peripherals" win converts and dazzle the faithful (Have you ever seen a Jehovah's Witnesses tract on paradise?). The peripherals can also entice the devout to do things like fly aircraft into skyscrapers. Do you believe the biblically-based peripherals are true, or are you content to see converts won with a falsehood?

I don't believe the Biblically based descriptions of heaven are literal. They are figurative. It is hard to explain in earthly terms since we don't have anything to compare it to.

Again, the main point of heaven is that we get back to a relationship with God that is not separated by sin. That's the true joy of eternal life.

Kevin

[Athius]

Originally posted by Magus55
Oh so Heaven and God don't exist? Prove it.. :rolleyes:

Oh so Heaven and God do exist? Prove it.. :rolleyes:

Stop saying stupid, ignorant statements when you have no freakin clue whether he exists or not.

You call it stupid and ignorant just because you don't agree with it, I obviously do have a clue of whether he exists or not, and I think I gave you specific examples. Rather than attack me like an idiot why don't you attack my argument saying "UCE this is wrong because..." Don't go calling people stupid when you are the stupidest moron around. I won't waste time answering your comments, other people already took care of it.

And instead of cussing out a God you don't even believe in, how about save us the wasted time we spent reading your insulting, ignorant post and just not reply? Since nothing of any value or insightful ideas came out of that post, don't bother.

It's funny who you use the word "we" while you're the only one going nutz over it and that all the people either agreed or stayed neutral to what I said. Listen I presented some great points and I gave some examples. I got emotional and angry during my writing so I used a couple of bad words here and there, but I still presented an argument. If you're so intelligent tell me what part of my argument is wrong and why, don't curse at me. When you do that you tell me you have nothing to say and so you just try to degrade me like a little kid.

But what if there is a God and a heaven and a hell, but it's nothing like what you describe? No cruel and unusual punishment? Besides, I'm skeptical that our society forbids this "cruel and unusual punishment". We appear to be quite happy to allow criminals to suffer torments by their fellow criminals in, say, a maximum security prison. We just can't stomach it for some reason when the state does it. But if "bad" people do it to other "bad" people somewhere we can't see it, it's apparently perfectly acceptible.

In other words, you're saying what if there is a supernatural force, but it's not the god in the Bible, Quran, etc. Well then that's a different story. What I said was the god that we are familiar with from the holy books does not make any sense and therefore cannot exist. I dont' see a problem saying something that self-contradicts itself cannot be true, it's a basic logical statement. For example: "Can you laugh and not laugh at the same time?" No, this statement is illogical and is self-contradictory, therefore it cannot be true. The same applies to the god we are familiar with. I could go on for pages giving examples of how god is self-contradictory but most of you already know it and it's become cliche, but if you want I'd be more than happy to write it up. So once again when I say god doesn't exist I'm talking about the god with the known characteristics, I never said no supernatural being exist. Maybe it does and it's nothing like our god, and we have not the slightest clue.

[openeyes]

Magus55 asked:And what do you consider "real" excitement on Earth? Christians are not mindless, boring, lifeless drones. We have fun, do fun things, laugh, party, etc etc. and in fact most Christians probably love life because its a gift from God and it has ultimate meaning, where as atheists.. its a gift from self mutating, tree swinging apes where the only ultimate meaning is decomposing

I guess the type of things I find exciting is knowledge, discovery, really finding out what makes the world and people tick. Watching my children grow and mature and witnessing the cycles of life is satisfying. Honest human connections are sustaining. A hike in the woods or to a mountaintop can be invigorating. I'm sure I could go on if I thought about it longer.

In many ways one might find my life indistinquishable from those of the "Christians" around me. Granted, you won't find me in church on Sunday, or any other day of the week, unless it's for a secular purpose, but many of the so called "Christian" values are human values that one does not need a god-belief to practice. Actually that phrase "Christian Values" is confusing, as I don't know if there is a universal acceptance of what it means, and some "values" some "Christians" profess and practice, such as intolerance to those different than themselves, are hardly positives in my eyes.

Life is a "gift"? Life as humans is a fact if we can think about it. If we hadn't survived the long odds of our individual existences, we wouldn't be here to contemplate it and therefore care about it. But we are here so we do think and care.

[reprise]

Locked 9 August, 2004.