Bahnsen vs. Stein 1985 debate

[ProNihil]

Greetings,
I downloaded the Bahnsen vs. Stein debate (audio) off of the Infidel Guy website, and was thinking that mabye it would be a good idea to have a transcript of that so it could be downloaded and read. I'm an atheist and believe that Stein clearly lost this one. Why don't you guys have more Bahnsen debates?

[-DM-]

The simple answer to your question is that we can only publish and/or market material which is available and for which we have the rights to do so.

Regarding your comment that Stein clearly lost the debate in question, most of the nontheists here would likely agree with you, but that has nothing to do with whether or not we would publish and/or market the debate were we able to do so. (Some of the debates which we do publish and/or market fall into the same category in terms of which debater we perceive as having won the debate.)

-Don-

[ProNihil]

Originally posted by DM

Regarding your comment that Stein clearly lost the debate in question, most of the nontheists here would likely agree with you, but that has nothing to do with whether or not we would publish and/or market the debate were we able to do so. (Some of the debates which we do publish and/or market fall into the same category in terms of which debater we perceive as having won the debate.)
-Don-

Ok, you have done a fine job of dissemanating part of what could have possibly, perhaps, mabye been going through my head when I posted my previous message. After having followed the link you provided, I now see why you may have possibly suspected that I was insinuating at somewhat of a (admittedly) self percieved notion of moral "ineptitude" (for lack of a better term) on your parts.

Having said that, I would like to say however that I am extremely impressed with your website and am genuinely glad that you have felt the call to arms, so to speak, even at the expense of your own personal time.

In view of the generally high level of scholarship and intellectual fortitude of the community of the Secular Web, I do have one more question for you. Where can I learn how to debate and construct thoughts and arguements to such a degree that I would be at the level of the outstanding scholars and minds you have provided in your debates section of the library? As I do not have the funds to go to school as of this moment, I would still like to get a head start in learning these arts, and hopefully be prepared to join the local collegiate debate team.

Thanks alot for your help,
ProNihil

[-DM-]

ProNihil:

Thank you very much for the positive feedback. Given that our "staff" consists only of volunteers, your kind words help to make what we do seem to be worth the effort.

Where can you learn to debate and do a good job of it? For starters, you might try participating in one or two of our philosophically-inclined discussion forums; the Philosophy (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=64) forum and the Existence of God(s) (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=59) forum come to mind. But that would be only a start.

Beyond that start, one needs education and training. As it happens, there is a seminar planned this summer to provide training to nontheist debaters. In addition, I can and will put you in touch with the person who has a real handle on this area of interest, Jeff Lowder; he will likely be able to offer more and better information on this than I can. Look for an e-mail from me to Jeff with a copy to you.

Regards,
-Don-

[ProNihil]

Originally posted by DM
In addition, I can and will put you in touch with the person who has a real handle on this area of interest, Jeff Lowder; he will likely be able to offer more and better information on this than I can. Look for an e-mail from me to Jeff with a copy to you.

Regards,
-Don-

Don,
Thank you once again for your help and support. I look forward to the email.

Sincerely,
Luke

[Christianity Reigns]

My dear atheists, non theists:

I have listened to the 1985 debate held at the University of California-Irvine between Bahnsen and Stein several times.

Stein clearly lost the debate hands down, case closed. Bahnsen's use of a neo-Kantian transcendental argument clearly was a surprise to Stein who gave unintelligible responses to Bahnsen.

Bahnsen clearly showed that there is evidence that
Two thousand years ago, a unique man named Jesus Christ of Nazareth emerged from the chaos of human existence with a profound message of hope and human redemption.

Jesus Christ claimed to be the Son of God, lived a perfect life, performed incredible miracles, proclaimed the coming of the Kingdom of God and ultimately died on the Cross for the sins of humanity and rose again from the dead to give anyone who would sincerely turn from their sins and place their faith in Him eternal life.

[-DM-]

Stein clearly lost the debate hands down, case closed. Bahnsen's use of a neo-Kantian transcendental argument clearly was a surprise to Stein who gave unintelligible responses to Bahnsen.There are probably very few atheists/nontheists who would not agree that Bahnsen won the debate, that Stein lost the debate. That says nothing necessarily about the existence or nonexistence of "God," however.

Bahnsen clearly showed that there is evidence that Two thousand years ago, a unique man named Jesus Christ of Nazareth emerged from the chaos of human existence with a profound message of hope and human redemption.The debate between Bahnsen and Stein was a debate about the existence of "God," not whether "there is evidence that two thousand years ago, a unique man named Jesus Christ of Nazareth emerged from the chaos of human existence with a profound message of hope and human redemption."

Jesus Christ claimed to be the Son of God"Christ" is not the last name of Jesus, but rather a title; whether Jesus was, in fact, the Christ, the promised Messiah, is certainly open to question. Further, the claim that someone was/is a "Son of God" has been made by and about a number of people, not just by or about Jesus.

As Richard Carrier (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/index.shtml) previously mentioned, "In Jewish terminology, every king, including David, was a son of God, and in Christian terminology, every Christian was called a son of God. Thus, it is most probable that Jesus only became an actual 'God' after Gentiles started taking over the Church and lost contact with the original Jewish concept. Before that, Jesus was only Son of God by virtue of being anointed, i.e. adopted by God as Israel's lord and savior, just as David had been. It is debatable whether even Jesus claimed such a thing, but he could have--for the very reason explored above--and even if he didn't, his followers would have every reason to label him such, again for the very reason explored above."

lived a perfect lifeThat Jesus lived a perfect life is a claim made by Christians, but the fact that it is claimed that such is the case does not necessarily make it true. There is biblical evidence, for example, that Jesus was both a hypocrite and a false prophet.

performed incredible miraclesThat claim has been made about many people, not just about Jesus. My guess is that you would probably discount the validity of "miracles" on the part of others, but allow those that Jesus allegedly performed. That anyone, ever, has performed a miracle is certainly not a proven fact.

proclaimed the coming of the Kingdom of GodAgain, this is not unique to Jesus.

and ultimately died on the Cross for the sins of humanityIt is more likely that the reason that he was crucified by the Romans is that he was considered either a threat or an inconvenience to the Roman authorities.

and rose again from the deadAgain, this claim is not unique to Jesus, and it is doubtful in any case.

to give anyone who would sincerely turn from their sins and place their faith in Him eternal life.This is a religious belief statement, and nothing more. If it is to be believed, it has to be taken on faith--and faith is certainly NOT a reliable road to truth.

-Don-

[charlesg]

Greetings.

I have a transcript of the debate, 'The Great Debate'. I will try to post it here and as time arises, post responses to the responses! Sounds better than the term, 'rebuttal'

Tell me how I can post this as an attachment,

Thanks.

Charles G.

[-DM-]

Charles G.:

First, some questions:
1) What is the source of your transcript of the debate?
2) Is it copyrighted? (If so, it cannot legally be posted in our discussion forums without permission of the copyright owner.)

Now, a comment: The Feedback Forum is intended as a forum for feedback to what is already published on the Secular Web, either in the Secular Web Library (http://www.infidels.org/library/) or the Secular Web Kiosk (http://www.secweb.org/kiosk.asp). Inasmuch as we never had the right to publish or distribute the debate, it wasn't published in either the Library or the Kiosk. Therefore, if someone wanted to carry on a discussion of the debate, it might be better in a forum such as The Existence of God(s) Forum (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=59).

Regards,
-Don-