My girlfriend has become fundified

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

Gah.

In the past few months my girlfriend has started going to church. Before she started doing this we used to have great discussions on religion/God, and she was very open-minded and intelligent with the issue, even though she was a liberal theist. Since those times she started going to church so that she could be with friends. It started out as a hobby so that she would have something to do, and she didn't really seem to believe what she was being taught.

Recently those teachings have started to sink in a bit more. Our intelligent discussions on the topic are long gone, and now any religious discussion turns into an attempt to bring me back to religion. She doesn't address any issues I bring up, and dodges any direct questions I might ask. In effect, she's starting to show the first signs of brainwashing. Whenever I ask how her church service went she will explain, and without fail she will say, "I wish we had this in common." She will do other little blips like this in daily conversation too.

Anyway, a couple weeks ago we had a talk about what would happen if we were to get married. She told me that her kids will be Christians, and basically said that I wouldn't have any say-so in how they are raised up. I reminded her that we agreed long ago that we should teach our children the basic concepts of many different beliefs, and then let them make up her own mind. She replied by saying that she couldn't bear the thought of bringing someone into the world who will only be condemned to hell.

With that in mind, it seems the obvious solution is to break off the relationship so that we can each go our separate ways. However, there's this little part of me that think there is still intellectual hope for her. There are still certain issues which she disagrees with her church on (evolution, homosexuality, etc.), and I know that if she used the reasoning I know she has she would discard some of the other stuff she believes now. She is very intelligent, and if I could just get her to think about what she was saying, then I would get my old girlfriend back. I don't want to give up an otherwise perfectly good relationship for this reason, but I also know that this will only cause a major conflict later.

What are some of my options on what I could do, and how would I know when there is no hope of reconciling our beliefs?

-Nick

[Daggah]

She told me that her kids will be Christians, and basically said that I wouldn't have any say-so in how they are raised up.

Huge red flag there, bud.

You're not married to her, so you're not locked in a relationship. Stay with her as long as you can take it/as long as you still care about her, but don't commit further unless she changes her views...not on Christianity, but on how your belief differences would affect a relationship between the two of you and any children you have.

[christ-on-a-stick]

Gah is right! More like... gaaahhhh!!!

She replied by saying that she couldn't bear the thought of bringing someone into the world who will only be condemned to hell. Danger. Danger.

Geez Louise... it seems as though there is something in the water lately! We've got Vicar Philip and brettc dealing with fundified wives, blondegoddess and Carrie dealing with fundified (or at least theist) husbands... now you.

In light of this, Recently those teachings have started to sink in a bit more. Our intelligent discussions on the topic are long gone, and now any religious discussion turns into an attempt to bring me back to religion. She doesn't address any issues I bring up, and dodges any direct questions I might ask. In effect, she's starting to show the first signs of brainwashing. - and this, However, there's this little part of me that think there is still intellectual hope for her. There are still certain issues which she disagrees with her church on (evolution, homosexuality, etc.), and I know that if she used the reasoning I know she has she would discard some of the other stuff she believes now. She is very intelligent, and if I could just get her to think about what she was saying, then I would get my old girlfriend back. - my advice would be:

Have you thought about confonting her about here refusal (or dodging) to discuss these issues with you openly and honestly, and answer your direct questions? It might be worthwhile to initiate a conversation with her and let her know how it makes you feel (not good!) that she no longer seems willing to discuss with you openly what is a very important issue to consider in a relationship. Let her know that you do think that she is intelligent, and that it bothers you that as such she is unwilling for some reason to discuss what she believes and also listen to what you have to say - have a meaningful dialogue.

Since I don't know the dynamics of your relationship, I don't know if it would a good or bad idea (or how she would take it I should say) if you honestly expressed to her that this issue - particularly her unwillingness to discuss it - is causing you to question whether the relationship can work out. Not as a threat per se, but an honest communication about how this is causing you to view the future of the relationship. I've always thought that honest communication (as opposed to you feeling a certain way and not saying anything about it until you're fed up) is the best policy. I'm not sure if you've already tried this or not but if not it may be worth a shot.

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

daggah, that very line was actually what made me realize that she was far more fundified than I thought. I knew then that our relationship would not work out if she kept this belief, and even she hinted that it would be a strain on our relationship. I don't want to break up with her for only that reason, but I also won't commit to "the next step" if we can't resolve this issue.

c-o-a-s,
Geez Louise... it seems as though there is something in the water lately! We've got Vicar Philip and brettc dealing with fundified wives, blondegoddess and Carrie dealing with fundified (or at least theist) husbands... now you.

Yeah, for real. If it gets worse I might have to start monitoring what she drinks.

Err, it's all their fault. I was fine until they had to deal with their fundified partners. :cool:

I haven't thought to confront her about her unwillingness to discuss these issues, but it is something I should consider. She has already hinted that she doesn't want to debate this issues with me. She saw some of my debates on another board and I think she's afraid that by debating with me I would actually shake her faith. I think this is the reason she avoids these discussions.

Our relationship is to the point where we can tell each other about certain certains we are having about the relationship, so that's not a big issue to me. I do have to find the right timing to discuss the issue, though. It's not something that I can bring up at any time. I don't know that I want to bring this up so that we can specifically discuss it, but next time we have a serious discussion about the relationship (or anything, for that matter) I will talk to her about it.

-Nick

[Godless Dave]

I would take a completely different tack.

Tell her you have been worried about her for some time. Tell her at first you were glad she was meeting people at church and getting something out of it, but now you are concerned that she is being drawn into a cult. Offer to take her to a different church - a normal (aka "liberal") Christian church (do your research ahead of time!). Remind her there are churches that don't have problems with evolution or even homosexuality. Remind her how the two of you used to discuss religion, and ask her if her current church discourages that kind of discussion and critical thought about Christianity. Stress that it's not her Christianity that's a problem, but this current extreme version of Christianity is coming between the two of you.

[christ-on-a-stick]

Hi Nick, She has already hinted that she doesn't want to debate this issues with me. She saw some of my debates on another board and I think she's afraid that by debating with me I would actually shake her faith. I think this is the reason she avoids these discussions. That being the case (that she has specifically stated that she doesn't want to discuss these issues with you (as opposed to just "bobbing and weaving") - is, IMO, even *more* reason that you should talk about it.

In my experience it's not possible to have a healthy relationship in which certain topics are not even up for discussion. (Note: I am not saying that there can't be topics on which a couple "agrees to disagree", but even then it has to be *discussed* before getting to that point and both parties have to be OK with that).

I certainly agree that timing is critical and also approach - (I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but...) people tend to get defensive when they perceive that they are being "attacked"... the less "confrontational"you can be while still being firm in your delivery (hope that makes sense...), the better. I.E. - when bringing up the whole Xianity thing, make sure she doesn't feel that by disagreeing with her beliefs , you are ridiculing or belittling her.

Just my .02 - I'm sure others here will have good advice for ya.

Lauri

*In my first paragraph I edited to change "debate" to "discuss" - it may also be an issue if she feels that all discussions have to be arguments or debates. My husband is like this sometimes - he HATES conflict and I sometimes need to remind him that *discussing* something doesn't have to mean arguing or having a big ole formal debate where one person has to "win".

[lisarea]

Frankly, I'm not surprised at all that theists won't allow their children to be raised in a secular environment. I can't imagine actually believing that heaven and hell and Jesus stuff, but not teaching it to my children. To leave this up to chance, in that mindset, would be like driving them around without seatbelts or leaving open bottles of antifreeze sitting around.

Here's a big old pile of ifs for you: If I were younger, had any interest in having children again, and/or considered getting married in the realm of possibility, I would avoid at all costs anyone with religious leanings, simply because it seems such disagreements are inevitable. And honestly, I'd probably be a little nervous about any theist, as they tend to start taking these things even more seriously when they have children.

There is, IMO, just too great a risk for discord in a situation like this. I'm not saying you need to break it off, but my advice would be not to make any permanent commitments.

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

Dave, that's an idea that I haven't thought about, but it may be a little too confrontational. This is a delicate issue for her, and I don't want to unnecessarily complicate things. That said, you do bring up some good points and I should be able to find a way to incorporate that into our discussions.

The problem with taking her to a different church is that her friends and grandparents go to this particular one. Her grandfather attends there, and was a preacher before he retired. If it were any average church I would suggest that she find a more liberal church, but with so many friends and family members at the church it would be a hard task. They're the reason she started going in the first place.

Lauri, I am starting to get worried about our relationship in part because of the reason you listed. First of all she wants to suppress my beliefs and not let me teach our children what I believe, and now she doesn't even want to talk about the differences we do have. The implications of this is that she might decide not to talk about other important events later on as well. It really worries me that she is starting to think like this.

It's a difficult position I'm in when it comes to talking with her. I want to be able to discuss what my beliefs are regarding God in general and Christianity specifically. I'm not entirely sure about how to proceed in a discussion without making it seem like I'm belittling her religion. It isn't normally an issue for me with anyone else, so I'm not well-practiced in doing this.

My g/f hates conflict as well. She likes it when we mutually agree on a topic, but when any disagreement shows up she thinks there is a conflict which extends well beyond the discussion. My general debating practice is not to take what is being said personally, but I don't expect her to share the same philosophy. It can be tough sometimes when the other person takes what is said personally. I guess the best thing I can do is make it clear that I am not attacking her and I don't mean anything personally.

lisarea, And honestly, I'd probably be a little nervous about any theist, as they tend to start taking these things even more seriously when they have children.

Yeah, this is something that makes me a little nervous too. We started seeing each other before I admitted to myself that I was an Atheist. Once I came out she took it reasonably well and some good discussions resulted. She even told me that she would be an agnostic herself if it weren't for a few events in her own life, and that she could understand my reasons for disbelieving. This calmed be down quite a bit, and at that point I didn't think raising children would be an issue. The simply state of being a theist doesn't imply that one would not want to raise children in a secular environment, or at least keep children from learning about a variety of beliefs and letting them make up their own mind.

My girlfriend doesn't hold those beliefs anymore, though. One major change is that she told me she's not so sure that she can respect my beliefs, even though she is trying. This is a complete 180 from our discussions shortly after I deconverted. She also changed her mind on how to raise children too. This makes me really worried and I'm not about to commit to anything in light of this. I do hope she grows out of this and that her fundyism is just a negative reaction to my coming out as an atheist.

-Nick

[muon]

Perhaps this is out of line since I don't know you or your girlfriend, but if I were you I'd be very tempted to issue an ultimatum: "It's me or God, baby----time to choose!" I imagine that this has a very high chance of resulting in a breakup, but I couldn't imagine staying with someone who puts belief in an imaginary god before me.

I have heard of very few circumstances where these sorts of relationships between fundified theists and atheists can succeed. Be glad you don't have a lot invested in this relationship yet.

Sorry if this sounds grim, but it sure seems grim to me.

[8of9]

Nick,

I'm glad you're putting things in a holding pattern as far as further commitment.

I am concerned that your girlfriend has such a strong network of relationships, particularly the one with her grandparents, holding her to this church. Grandparents are a tough issue, because they're loved (from infancy), respected (from adulthood) and not gonna be around forever (which makes it hard to "disrespect" them by leaving their church).

It also sounds like your girlfriend is less and less the person you want to have children with. She can grow and learn to have disagreements that aren't personal. And she can grow in her beliefs. But the inability to respect your beliefs is a strong signal that even if things get better this time around, she doesn't see your intellectual and religious independence as a fundamental right.

Finally, I second the assertion that having kids brings out the fundy in the Christian. I have seen this time and again, and I have seen it needle its way between Christians of different sects, and well as Christians married to those of other faiths/atheists.

I am sorry I have so many concerns and no constructive suggestions for your relationship with your girlfriend. I decided long ago to only date atheists, as I never wanted to be in your shoes.

Good luck.

meg

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

oser, I wouldn't go so far as to break up with her just because she puts some deity in front of me (or herself, for that matter), but I would consider it if she let that belief get in the way of mutual respect in our relationship.

I do realize that relationships of this type don't have a high success ratio, but I don't want to give up just yet. It may just be a phase she's going through in a delayed reaction to my coming out as an Atheist. If she returns to her previously held beliefs our relationship would be just fine.

Meg, her connections with that particular church concern me as well. Life was fine before she started to go since it just wasn't expected of her. However, at this point if she were to stop going, then people will start prying into her life and wondering why she stopped going to church. At this point I think she feels like she has to stay around, and it would only lead to more brainwashing. Slowly but surely she is losing her own opinions as they are replaced by her pastor's.

I'm hoping that her reactions to my beliefs are just shock. While I came out about March or April of last year, it's still relatively new to her. If she can start respecting my beliefs and hopefully come to understand where I'm coming from (again), then I'm sure our relationship would be fine. What scares me is that we were at the point of mutually respecting each others beliefs before she started with this church, so I'm starting to think that this may not be the case. Only time will tell, I suppose.

I don't really know what to expect with the children issue, but I would have to assume that you all are more familiar with it than me. My dad was a Catholic, and my mom a southern Baptist, when they met. My mom "converted" to the Methodist faith, and started taking us there. Over the years we all started going with my dad to the Catholic church, and eventually church became something we did as a whole family. My parents were able to reconcile their differing beliefs in order to bring the family together.

Ack, just looking at my example I realized that this entailed my mom leaving her protestant faith and going with us to the Catholic church weekly. In order to reconcile their faiths, my mom had to practically give up hers.

Hmm. Unless we can reach some level of mutual tolerance and respect of each other's beliefs, this really isn't looking very good for me.


I am sorry I have so many concerns and no constructive suggestions for your relationship with your girlfriend. I decided long ago to only date atheists, as I never wanted to be in your shoes.

That's alright. Your concerns are still a big help to me because they give me something else to ponder, something that I may not have considered before. If my girlfriend and I were to break up I would only date other Atheists at this point. I hadn't admitted my atheism to myself by the time my girlfriend and I started seeing each other, though, so it wasn't something I was able to foresee at the time.

-Nick

[Vorkosigan]

Has she lost any other friends?? That might be a useful thing to point out, showing how the cult has begun to control her life.

Michael

[MilitantModerate]

I don't think it's the water; just the effect of living under Jeb and GW. Bush^2 :rolleyes: . As far as constructive advice: I think you only have two real alternatives. Drag her back, kicking and screaming, to reality right now, before the brain rot sets in; or run away fast and don't look back. Half measures, pandering, procrastinating, and wishful thinking only mean things are going to be bad before they get worse.

[UntamedSeductress]

I think you should stay with her until her beliefs begin to affect your relationship in a serious way. Is it simply the discussions that are lacking or is it effecting other aspects?

Will her beliefs begin to effect your sex life? Are you willing to have your children raised as Christians? Does this change her as a whole, or just this aspect of the person you love?

I'm agnostic, in a relationship with a fundy and I think I have more of a problem with it then him simply because I worry alot about things I can't or don't want to change and am paranoid it will end us when more likely my worrying will. Actually I don't think he has a problem with it at all. (I'm fairly open minded and willing to discuss anything with him, and he is very non judgemental and has never pushed his faith onto me which makes it alot easier).

I know that one day when we finally get around to getting married, it will become an issue. He is of the same view as your girlfriend that he could not bring someone into this world that he knew would be condemned to hell without god in their lives - how our children will be raised will be a huge issue and if we can't agree then we won't be together. Simple as that.

He comes from a society where religion is a huge issue, and honestly what I know about it I have learnt from him. I was brought up to chose for myself through my own experience and education. We didnt even discuss it for weeks into the relationship because I don't care and he took it as a given that I would be Christian.

Anyway, I'm getting side tracked and dribbling...

In the long run Nick, you have to do whats best for yourself. Do you want to spend the rest of your life with someone that looks down on your beliefs? Does not accept you for who you are? Does not believe the father of her children should be given a say in their upbringing? Can she accept someone that has views different to her own? Maybe what you live with will have her end the relationship anyway.

I'm not being terribly uplifting am I. I can say that it works fine, but that it is dependant on the two individuals. You have to accept each other to be together - if you can't then it is best to end it, only in the long run will you suffer.

[JCS]

She told me that her kids will be Christians, and basically said that I wouldn't have any say-so in how they are raised up.

If you want her and children in your future this will have to be resolved. She is basically telling you she will accept what ever you have to offer except your opinion. If children aren't an issue for you, proceed with the relationship, just don't get her pregnant.


"I wish we had this in common."

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts she eventually breaks things off with you anyway, unless you sign up for the program.



She is very intelligent, and if I could just get her to think about what she was saying, then I would get my old girlfriend back.

She probably thinks if you would just open your heart to jebus she could have her old boy friend back. I would imagine that her questions and thoughts concerning belief are being answered by her church. Also any further thinking on her part at this juncture will be only sympathetic to the cause not critical.


I don't want to give up an otherwise perfectly good relationship for this reason, but I also know that this will only cause a major conflict later.

Then best to resolve it now one way or another or your emotional investment in this relationship will not pay the dividends that one hopes for in a long term commitment. Read the strumming for jesus thread.:(

[Eudaimonist]

When in a relationship, one should never depend on one's partner changing for the better (judged by one's own values). Sure, people do change, and can improve or become a more appealing partner. But this cannot be counted on.

Your girlfriend is assuming that her prayers that God will soften your heart and turn you into a Christian will work. (Yes, she is praying this every chance she gets.) She told you she doesn't want her children damned to Hell, and this means she believes that, at the moment, you are damned. She is tolerating your atheism for now. She is not entirely happy with you, and probably would be in perpetual misery in a marriage.

You are hoping that she will become the liberal Christian she was. I admire your optimism, but don't count on this happening. Chances are very good that things will get worse. The big red flag is that she doesn't want you to teach your children about secular ideas.

Ask yourself this: If she remains the fundy that she is (or worse) her whole life, and if she adamantly refuses to let you teach your (plural "your") children about secular ideas, what will your life be like with her? What will her life be like with you? What will your childrens' lives be like?

[Never]

Sorry to hear about your situation. It doesn't sound good for a long term relationship if things continue in the same direction. Everyone's elses advice is good but I have one thing to add if you are able to do it based on this that you said:

quote:
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She is very intelligent, and if I could just get her to think about what she was saying, then I would get my old girlfriend back.
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My idea - take her on a vacation. A week out of town somewhere. (Preferably warm enough you don't have to be couped up inside). I know for me, a change in scenery seems to open up my mind. Give her several days to relax, distance herself from home/church/fundie friends, and spend some quality time with just you, then have that serious discussion.

[Kintaro]

Quote : Perhaps this is out of line since I don't know you or your girlfriend, but if I were you I'd be very tempted to issue an ultimatum: "It's me or God, baby----time to choose!"


This may sound extreme, but it's hitting the target of the question. The bulls-eye is this:

she says she doesn't want to raise children who are "condemned" to hell, then why the hell is she dating you ? Where's her afterlife fantasy with you ? She has one for her kids, so if she has one for you, either her definition of heaven is screwed, or she will convert you given the time and occasion.

The previous poster had a great idea. Take her away for a few days. And MAKE SURE YOU'RE GONE SUNDAY. Best way to ensure it, plan something the saturday night, and make sure you're at least 320 km away from the home or church (= 200 miles).

Then Tuesday (or so) during the last day trip or after arrival, put all your chips on the table, and remind yourself only this. Love is a bonus, if you lose what's there, you lose only bonus. You still have your body and mind. If she realizes what impossible demands she's asking from you, she'll know what she lost, a kind, caring, rational person who was willing to do for her what she couldn't do for herself, much less others.

Unfortunately, I'm guessing your success rate at a TWO-WAY relationship lies at about 20-22 %. Prepare for the worst, and it won't feel that bad.

[BadBadBad]

Sorry to say it, but you're doomed pal!

Long before you get to the point of getting married and having kids, she'll probably be giving you ultimatims. I don't think you have to worry about kids. The more she falls in line with Christianity, the less she's going to see hope and a future for your relationship. What she's going to see is pity and futility. The more you talk about it, the sooner she's going to come to that conclusion.

Sounds like she's a gonner. She's not just carrying forth beliefs from her childhood brainwashing without thought. She is seeking to live out her childhood brainwashing. She's got her church, church friends, and more importantly family behind it. She's doing that born again thing. She hasn't just held on to beliefs she's never thought about. She's thought about intrinsic beliefs and she's concluded with all her heart to engulf herself in them. That's what it sounds like to me. Guess what, she's engulfing herself in something that you can never be a part of. That's a big problem.

I dated a girl once. I wanted to get more serious with her. Unfortunately, she kept saying she was about to arbitrarily get up and move out of state. Not that she had some big job offer or something. She just wanted to move. Somebody should have hit me with a two by four. That was kind of a red flag that she didn't see things the same way I did. I've been down this christian/atheist road, with this girl, and now my wife. Eventually, even if you stay together, you'll live life as a second class citizen. You're damned and should be pitied. She apparently already pities you. Who needs that crap?

I'd sit down and really put some thought into where this is going. Have faith enough in yourself to know that there's someone out there for you that sees you and your relationship as the focus of their life. Someone that wants to be engulfed in a relationship with you not some fairy tale of God. Someone that sees a future with you where raising kids, mutual respect, and lifestyle aren't going to be a problem. Not only that it won't be a problem, but that she's committing her life to it. Sounds like your girlfriend wants to engulf her life with fairy tales.

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

Vorkosigan, Has she lost any other friends?? That might be a useful thing to point out, showing how the cult has begun to control her life.

She is certainly hanging around different people, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that she has lost her other friends. I can see where she might if she keeps this up, but it's hard to say at the moment.

MilitantModerate, I think you only have two real alternatives. Drag her back, kicking and screaming, to reality right now, before the brain rot sets in; or run away fast and don't look back. Half measures, pandering, procrastinating, and wishful thinking only mean things are going to be bad before they get worse.

I'm afraid you're right, but I'm still hoping that there is just that fleeting chance that things might get better. I'm in the extreme minority when it comes to influencing her beliefs, so I don't hold out much hope for bringing her back to liberalism. I don't want to give up quite yet, though. Things aren't hopeless right now.

Untamed, I think you should stay with her until her beliefs begin to affect your relationship in a serious way. Is it simply the discussions that are lacking or is it effecting other aspects?

Right now our relationship isn't affected in a serious way, but this could change in the near future. At the moment only our discussions are lacking. Recently some issues of trust and tolerance are starting to slightly affect our relationship, but it isn't quite noticeable yet. It's starting to seem like the difference in religious beliefs are going to really affect our relationship as time goes on, but right now it's not an issue so I am optimistic that I might be able to influence the course of the relationship before it gets to this level.

Will her beliefs begin to effect your sex life? Are you willing to have your children raised as Christians? Does this change her as a whole, or just this aspect of the person you love?

Her beliefs won't really affect our love life, at least not that I can tell. I don't mind her teaching our children the basic tenants of the Christian faith and even taking our children to church. However, I would expect equal treatment in that I could teach the children about my beliefs, and take them to any secular meetings (read infidel gatherings, or the like) of the sort as well. We initially agreed on teaching our children different religions and beliefs and letting them decide, and I would go along with this.

Her beliefs haven't changed her as a person yet, but I can see the beginnings of this change. She is starting to incorporate her religion into her usual hobbies, and I could see where she would let her religion dictate her very self later on. It's too early to say right now, though.

I don't want to spend the rest of my life with somebody who will look down on my beliefs. I don't want to commit because of this. I'm hoping that this is just a phase, and everything will be fine after she gets over the initial shock of my coming out. Her actions regarding my beliefs indicate that she can't really accept me for who I am, but then again she may come to accept this part of me later on. I don't know yet, so only future discussions can tell for sure what she thinks.

In the past she hasn't has a problem with me wanting to teach the children different beliefs, but this is something that has recently changed. I will have to wait and see if she is changing her mind permanently, or if it's just a phase. It's too early to tell.


I'm not being terribly uplifting am I. I can say that it works fine, but that it is dependant on the two individuals. You have to accept each other to be together - if you can't then it is best to end it, only in the long run will you suffer.

Not particularly, but your reponse is really helpful to me. It wouldn't do me much good to get uplifted now, only to end up in relationship hell later. I don't have a problem with accepting her religious beliefs, but when those beliefs start comprosing my own beliefs I have to draw the line. It's tough to know what to do, and a realistic suggestion is among the best.

-----------------

Thank you all for replying to my post. You've all given me a lot to think about. I'll try to get to the rest of your posts later on. Alas, at the moment I have to go to class, though.

-Nick

[brighid]

I don't want to spend the rest of my life with somebody who will look down on my beliefs. I don't want to commit because of this. I'm hoping that this is just a phase, and everything will be fine after she gets over the initial shock of my coming out. Her actions regarding my beliefs indicate that she can't really accept me for who I am, but then again she may come to accept this part of me later on. I don't know yet, so only future discussions can tell for sure what she thinks.

Nick,

Do you realize that she probably thinks you are just going through a phase and will eventually come out of it?

She is presently unable to accept you for who you are. She is changing her life to adapt to her church. She won't allow you to share your beliefs with any children you have and eventually she will look down on you even more.

Honey ... there are red flags going up all over the place. Fireworks even. I would suggest cutting your losses now, but that is a decision only you can make.

If it helps at all I was in a similar situation and my boyfriend became "born again" and started spewing all kinds of stupid, biblical crap about how I was to obey him, submit to him ... a woman's place is in the home ... and blah, blah, blah. We had a very interesting discussion to put it mildly. We both determined that it was pretty useless moving forward, or even continuing on with such different views.

If I were you (and obviously I am not :D) I wouldn't waste my time hoping someone will change and learn to respect me once again. It is possible that she will change, but it is unlikely. It's just as possible that the Christian God ACTUALLY exists, but hon ... it sure isn't LIKELY! ALthough you have a bit more chance in her changing then the Christian God existing.

You seem like a very bright, articulate, wonderful person. You deserve to be treated with mutual respect and value. A woman who won't allow you to teach YOUR children a valid belief system neither respects, nor values you. Why would you want to be in a relationship that devalues your thoughts?

Brighid

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

JCS,
If you want her and children in your future this will have to be resolved. She is basically telling you she will accept what ever you have to offer except your opinion. If children aren't an issue for you, proceed with the relationship, just don't get her pregnant.

I understand what you're saying. I'm certainly not going to commit to a binding relationship if we can't work this issue out. If we don't get it worked out before marriage, then it would be that much tougher to resolve the issue after marriage when the kids come along.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts she eventually breaks things off with you anyway, unless you sign up for the program.

mmm...doughnuts.

I would expect this too. Sometimes I start thinking that the only reason she hasn't broken up with me yet is because she still thinks she can win me over to the Big JC. I don't like to think like that, but sometimes it really seems like this is what's happening.

She probably thinks if you would just open your heart to jebus she could have her old boy friend back. I would imagine that her questions and thoughts concerning belief are being answered by her church. Also any further thinking on her part at this juncture will be only sympathetic to the cause not critical.

Yeah, this has actually been in the back of my mind the whole time. Perhaps she thinks that if she can bring me back to the faith I'll be the same person I was before I deconverted. That said, I haven't noticed myself being very different. If anything I'm happier now, but I digress.

Then best to resolve it now one way or another or your emotional investment in this relationship will not pay the dividends that one hopes for in a long term commitment. Read the strumming for jesus thread.:(

Yeah, I think you're right. When the right time comes along I'll discuss this with her and try to come up with some kind of agreement. If we can reach a mutual understanding I won't have to worry, and if we decide to break off the relationship we wouldn't have spent the next several years in a dead-end relationship.

Eudaimonist, When in a relationship, one should never depend on one's partner changing for the better (judged by one's own values). Sure, people do change, and can improve or become a more appealing partner. But this cannot be counted on.

You're right. This is a good point. I don't think I should expect for her to change her value system around just for me. There's always that hope, though. I don't want to give up just yet, but perhaps I shouldn't count on her changing her mind because of this.

I never thought about her as simply tolerating my atheism right now in the hopes that I grow out of it, but it makes sense. She would certainly be disappointed if our children became Atheists, and extrapolating that I'm sure she is disappointed that I am an Atheist now.

I certainly don't want to enter into a long-term relationship with her if she's only going to be miserable. She already told me that she sometimes cries herself to sleep because of this at the moment. If we breakup she wouldn't worry about this nearly as much as if we were to get married. I want her to be happy, even if it means me not being around her.

Ask yourself this: If she remains the fundy that she is (or worse) her whole life, and if she adamantly refuses to let you teach your (plural "your") children about secular ideas, what will your life be like with her? What will her life be like with you? What will your childrens' lives be like?

Ugh, this isn't easy to think about, but fairly simple to answer. My life with her would be very depressing to me. It's hard enough right now to keep my Atheism away from my parents and grandparents, and this isn't even something that concerns me on a daily basis. I only have to keep quiet on the few occasions where we actually visit each other. However, once children come along I would have to hide my beliefs and pretend to be somebody I'm not on a daily basis. It would be very tough on me.

I already mentioned that my g/f sometimes cries herself to sleep at night, and this likely won't change later. Also, if one of our children were to become Atheists, then not only would she be very upset for obvious reasons, but it would also strain our relationship because she would think I had some kind of negative influence over them.

Our children's lives would be difficult once they get old enough to start asking questions. They'll start wondering why daddy doesn't go to church, and sooner or later they'll likely discover that I don't believe in God. At this point they're likely to be upset that their own father is doomed to an eternity in hell, so it wouldn't be good on them either.

I know you meant those as rhetorical questions, but I felt like I should answer them here in order to get my thoughts out there.

Never, My idea - take her on a vacation. A week out of town somewhere. (Preferably warm enough you don't have to be couped up inside). I know for me, a change in scenery seems to open up my mind. Give her several days to relax, distance herself from home/church/fundie friends, and spend some quality time with just you, then have that serious discussion.

This is a good idea. I won't be able to take her on a vacation for awhile, but I would have the opportunity to have her just to myself for a few days. Perhaps she would relax a bit so that she would be open to what I have to say. I can only hope...

Kintaro, she says she doesn't want to raise children who are "condemned" to hell, then why the hell is she dating you ? Where's her afterlife fantasy with you ? She has one for her kids, so if she has one for you, either her definition of heaven is screwed, or she will convert you given the time and occasion.

Hmm, good point. I mentioned to another poster that perhaps she thinks she can convert me if she doesn't break up with me. She does care about me, and I think she knows that there is no hope for "saving" me if we break up. Maybe she thinks that by keeping the relationship intact I would eventually come around. After all, if I believed once, then I could come to believe again, right?

Unfortunately, I'm guessing your success rate at a TWO-WAY relationship lies at about 20-22 %. Prepare for the worst, and it won't feel that bad.

You're probably right. I'm hoping I'm that 1 person out of 5 who is able to have a good two-way relationship, but it's starting to seem like that may not be the case.

-Nick

[Loren Pechtel]

Originally posted by I ate Pascal's Wafer

What are some of my options on what I could do, and how would I know when there is no hope of reconciling our beliefs?

The relationship is over. Leave.

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

brett, Long before you get to the point of getting married and having kids, she'll probably be giving you ultimatims. I don't think you have to worry about kids. The more she falls in line with Christianity, the less she's going to see hope and a future for your relationship. What she's going to see is pity and futility. The more you talk about it, the sooner she's going to come to that conclusion.

You're probably right. She already implied that she didn't want me to corrupt our children, so it's doubtful that our relationship will make it to the point of marriage and children. If it doesn't, then I don't have much to worry about. On the off chance that she does want to get married we do need to work something out, though.

She hasn't just held on to beliefs she's never thought about. She's thought about intrinsic beliefs and she's concluded with all her heart to engulf herself in them. That's what it sounds like to me. Guess what, she's engulfing herself in something that you can never be a part of. That's a big problem.

More recently this seems like the case. Back before she started going to this church she had her own opinions on the matter. She did believe in God and heaven, but she believed that people went to heaven based on their merits and not on their religious orientation. Now that she started going back, though, her ideas are changing. Apparently her childhood beliefs (everyone going to heaven) are slowly being replaced by the conservative protestant doctrine, and she is really taking this in. Before she never thought about the issue, but now she puts a lot of thought into it so that she could make an impact during Bible study. It's not looking good.


I'd sit down and really put some thought into where this is going. Have faith enough in yourself to know that there's someone out there for you that sees you and your relationship as the focus of their life. Someone that wants to be engulfed in a relationship with you not some fairy tale of God. Someone that sees a future with you where raising kids, mutual respect, and lifestyle aren't going to be a problem. Not only that it won't be a problem, but that she's committing her life to it. Sounds like your girlfriend wants to engulf her life with fairy tales.

This is the hardest thing for me to do. I really care about my girlfriend, and all I want is for us to make up and live happily ever after. It's really tough for me to imagine breaking up with her and being with someone else, although I do realize that this is a big possibility. It's so hard to imagine myself with another girl because our relationship is great in every other way. This wasn't even an issue until she started going to church again, and we just went along blissfully before that point. Whenever I think about myself with another person, I think back to the earlier days in our relationship and think that a perfect relationship would be something like that.

Brighid, Do you realize that she probably thinks you are just going through a phase and will eventually come out of it?

Yeah, you may be right. This would explain why she tolerated it much better after I came out, but is starting to be less friendly towards my beliefs as I grow stronger in them.

She is presently unable to accept you for who you are. She is changing her life to adapt to her church. She won't allow you to share your beliefs with any children you have and eventually she will look down on you even more.

This does seem to be what she's doing. As time goes on and she grows in her own faith as a Christian it'll just get worse. I'm still hopeful that things will get better, but that hope is dimming the longer this goes on.

Honey ... there are red flags going up all over the place. Fireworks even. I would suggest cutting your losses now, but that is a decision only you can make.

Yeah. There a'int a flag big enough or red enough. I don't want to give up just yet because there's always hope, and I just might still be able to reconcile things. Only a serious discussion with her about this will tell.

If it helps at all I was in a similar situation and my boyfriend became "born again" and started spewing all kinds of stupid, biblical crap about how I was to obey him, submit to him ... a woman's place is in the home ... and blah, blah, blah. We had a very interesting discussion to put it mildly. We both determined that it was pretty useless moving forward, or even continuing on with such different views.

Oh no, that must be rough. I know I would be pissed if my g/f came up to me and said that I have to submit to her will.

I hope that we can reach a mutual agreement as you two did. Just so long as we can agree on this I would be happy.

If I were you (and obviously I am not :D) I wouldn't waste my time hoping someone will change and learn to respect me once again. It is possible that she will change, but it is unlikely. It's just as possible that the Christian God ACTUALLY exists, but hon ... it sure isn't LIKELY! ALthough you have a bit more chance in her changing then the Christian God existing.

LOL. Good analogy. As Eudaimonist mentioned, I'm not going to depend on her changing her belief system for me. But, there's always hope. :) I'll discuss this with her so that I can get a better idea of where she stands and whether or not she can change.


You seem like a very bright, articulate, wonderful person. You deserve to be treated with mutual respect and value. A woman who won't allow you to teach YOUR children a valid belief system neither respects, nor values you. Why would you want to be in a relationship that devalues your thoughts?

As much as I tried to hide from this thought, I think you're right. The underlying implication of the whole issue is that she considers my beliefs as second and inferior to her own. I really do hope that I'm getting the wrong message from her, but this is likely the case. I'll discuss this with her and see what happens.

-Nick

[christ-on-a-stick]

Hi again Nick, Yeah. There a'int a flag big enough or red enough. I don't want to give up just yet because there's always hope, and I just might still be able to reconcile things. Only a serious discussion with her about this will tell. It seems as though you are looking at this pretty clearly, IMO - not downplaying or minimizing the potential pitfalls and danger signs, but willing to at least put forth the *effort* (last-ditch though it may be, it's worth a shot) of talking to her about it. You strike me as being very level-headed about it - not willing to just "throw in the towel" without even addressing the issue, but willing to stand up for yourself and what is important to you if that's the final result.

Hats off to you!!! And good luck.... this kind of thing is never easy but you always have us to vent to :)

Lauri

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

Hi Lauri, You strike me as being very level-headed about it - not willing to just "throw in the towel" without even addressing the issue, but willing to stand up for yourself and what is important to you if that's the final result.

Yeah, I don't want to do anything I might regret later, so I want to really examine every angle to see what options I have. I like to be realistic, but optimistic about things.


Hats off to you!!! And good luck.... this kind of thing is never easy but you always have us to vent to :)

Thanks. :) For the most part I suppose I know what I have to do, and I know the likely outcomes of what may happen. I guess I'm mainly looking for emotional support.

You guys are the only people I have to really vent this stuff with. You are all understanding and have good advice on the subject.

-Nick

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by I ate Pascal's Wafer
This is the hardest thing for me to do.

It may be hard now, but married with children, it will be several order of magnitudes harder still.

The underlying implication of the whole issue is that she considers my beliefs as second and inferior to her own.

You're getting the message alright. You're just not getting the whole message. It's not just your beliefs that she holds second and inferior to her own. It's you as a person. You are a heathen. Damned and dishonored by God himself. If that hasn't come across yet, it will. This will be the root of all your personality problems. This will be the root of all your relationship problems. The only reason she hasn't written you off yet is that you still have hope. She's hoping you'll see the light of God, get down on your knees in a pool of you're own sweat, piss, and vomit and praise Jesus right along with her! Thanks to Vicar Phillip for that visual. :D

This is not how you want to be looked upon by your significant other. You're clinging to this girl, but really, you've read into the relationship things that are just not real. You're clinging to something that's not real, and so is she.

[Albion]

She is very intelligent, and if I could just get her to think about what she was saying, then I would get my old girlfriend back.

I wouldn't count on that happening. She's got quite a support group, and fundies specialise in getting their claws into people and never, ever letting go. Wresting souls away from the devil and hanging onto them for all they're worth is the basic reason for existence of many fundies. So far on the BBC boards they made the Pagan board pretty much unlivable and when the mods finally stepped in (after they'd accused a pagan schoolteacher of being a paedophile and he'd threatened legal action) they moved over to the Jewish board and are busy being good little missionaries over there (in the guise of Messianic Jews) and making that board thoroughly unpleasant too. There's one who boasts about bringing 150 souls to Jesus and who flew from England to Texas to spend two weeks at her dying mother-in-law's bedside exhorting her to turn to Jesus before it was too late, and when she didn't, the fundy flew back to England and announced to her kids that Granny's gonna burn in hell for all eternity and they'd better be careful about their own lives. These people are deranged. If your girlfriend carries on being around them after showing signs of softening to their position, she's lost.

[brighid]

Nick,

Your attitude and insight are refreshing. The confidence you appear to posses that allows you to take such realistic looks at your own feelings and acknowledge the situation, while still maintaining an altruistic sense of hope is wonderful. I applaud you. I feel very sad for your girlfriend though. I don’t think she realizes what a gem she is losing to her faith. If her God can look down on you … well He is a pretty pathetic God, but my opinions on this subject are well known :D

I hope she comes to her senses and realizes that a truly amazing person loves her. Perhaps someday she will look back and realize just what she forfeited. Hopefully it won’t be during the trials and tribulations of a loveless marriage. Your situation reminds me of a situation my mother was in. She wanted to marry a “good Christian” man. At the time she was being courted by two different men, one was a “good Christian” and the other was not religious but I cannot say if he was an atheist. My mother married the good, Christian man. I later met the “other” man and was flabbergasted that my mother chose this GC man over him. The differences in their character were striking. The GC man has cheated on my mother, at least once. He has also brought some weird Protestant, fundy, quasi Messianic Jew twist to her Catholicism that has made for quite an interesting mix.

My point is that I have seen many men and women chose a mate according to their religious system and pass over mates with far better characters because of a lack of similar faith. It seems self-defeating to me!

As to my former born again boyfriend …. Oh, it did hurt because I cared for him very deeply. He knew me for many years before this conversion and he knew my position on such things so it was somewhat of a shock to me that he truly expected that I would get in line with that sort of thinking if I wanted to be with him.

My husband is something of an apathetic deist and who supports all my varied interests with regard to religion and my atheism in particular. We don’t always agree, but we do agree on how to raise our child with regard to religion and atheism. It makes for a much more harmonious living situation.

Brighid

[Paul2]

I'd suggest going to church with her. Go to those meetings or whatever. Hang out with these friends. Fight the system with the system.

[Proxima Centauri]

Watch that Church doesn't brainwash you. If they get to you, stop going.

[Proxima Centauri]

The Ex-cult Resource Center (http://www.ex-cult.org/)can give you information about religious cults. If you insist on arguing with your girlfriend it may help as she is only partially brainwashed. You may be able to get her to think. Watch that she doesn't dig her heels in more if you agrue.

[The Other Michael]

Hi Nick,

You mentioned it was starting to affect her hobbies. Is then the religion showing up more and more in the rest of her life?

By that I mean the constant religious references: "Glory, it,s such a blessing, etc", toting the Bible around, dropping previoius activities as "unGodly" or otherwise inappropriate for a good churchgoing believer, and the like.

If so, it may already be past the point of no easy return. And if that is the case you've got my sympathy.

good luck,
Michael

[-RRH-]

For some reason, this is reminding me of two friends of mine who are dating. She is university-educated and he is a checkout clerk at the grocery store.

She would complain to him about his "lack of direction" and he would get resentful that she was trying to change him. But it seemed that what bothered her most about having an underachieving boyfriend was introducing him to friends and answering questions like, "And what does he do?" or "Oh, but he's going to school, right?"



Similarly, I think your girlfriend was fine with you being an atheist until she had to answer questions like: "Why doesn't he come to church?"

This places her in the position of defending your atheism on your behalf. It seems she has opted not to do so, and is instead passing the attack along to you.

Now, you can decide she has proven herself too weak to date an atheist, or you can try to help her in her defence. Showing up at church in person to meet whoever has been giving her a hard time would be a big help. And since you yourself have had to defend atheism, you can give her tips. She has probably been reluctant to discuss religion with you because she is scared that she'll just get attacked from both sides. So make it clear you are criticizing what they have been telling her, and not trying to change her own beliefs.

But, if she won't co-operate on this matter, she's too far-gone to handle dating an atheist.

[Eudaimonist]

Originally posted by Paul2
I'd suggest going to church with her. Go to those meetings or whatever. Hang out with these friends. Fight the system with the system.

That's a creative idea, but doomed to failure. You can't successfully fight the irrationality of such groups. You'd have no leverage.

[Paul2]

Originally posted by Eudaimonist
That's a creative idea, but doomed to failure. You can't successfully fight the irrationality of such groups. You'd have no leverage.

Nothing is impossible. well, almost nothing anyway. But at least he'd know what he's up against.

[-RRH-]

Yeah, recon couldn't hurt in this case. But be clear to your girlfriend your real reasons for coming along. No need to let her think you are about to change.

[Puck]

Hi Nick,

I just popped in and read this thread. I'm so sorry to hear about this.

Yeah, red flags popping up all over the place, with bells going off, bing, bing, bing.

Along with several others, the one that really caught my eye was you thinking that you had to pick 'just the right time' to have a discussion. NO! In a healthy relationship, the parties get it out in the open asap. If you have to walk on egg shells trying to manuver just the right time/place to discuss something so basic and integral, then you are working alone, and not with a partner.

From everything you have said, I'd say quit tip-toeing around her crazy cult beliefs. At this point, with her background and her already having changed her stance twice, I'd say that even if you two 'worked things out', and you married and had children, there's a pretty high chance that you'd be facing this all over again, with the subsequent heartache of having your children torn up, too.

Only you can make the choices, and opinions are like assholes; mine is cut and run. Tell her you love her, but you can't bear the idea of your children being brainwashed any more than she can bear the thought of them burning in hell, and you must protect your future children from such cruelty.

{{{{Nick}}}}

[Godless Dave]

Originally posted by Puck
Along with several others, the one that really caught my eye was you thinking that you had to pick 'just the right time' to have a discussion. NO! In a healthy relationship, the parties get it out in the open asap. If you have to walk on egg shells trying to manuver just the right time/place to discuss something so basic and integral, then you are working alone, and not with a partner.


Bingo! It took me a year to figure that out, but when I did I dumped my girlfriend like Japanese steel.

If you do decide to talk to her about this, make a clear distinction between her religious beliefs, which you respect, and the beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors of the specific fundy crowd she is hanging with. Remind her that faith may come from God, but churches and rules are made up by people. Ask her how much of this she really believes in her heart and how much she is conforming to a social group. If she is being drawn into fundyism there may be a chance to pull her back to a more mature form of Christianity. But Puck's right, if you can't talk about this kind of thing freely then this isn't much of a relationship.

[Seeker630]

Originally posted by Paul2
I'd suggest going to church with her. Go to those meetings or whatever. Hang out with these friends. Fight the system with the system.

I have to disagree with this idea. If these people are as fundy as this thread indicates, it would be like hanging a tuna steak over a tank full of barracudas. Once Pascal's Wafer is in their physical presence the pressure would be really on to bring him into the "fold". They would probably also bring additional pressure on his girlfriend to convert him or dump him--the unevenly yolked thing.

I don't see this relationship going anywhere unless she has a real and clear turn of mind. Especially since she's already giving him ultimatums about how the kids are to be raised and they're not even married! Better he finds out now than later.

[tgamble]

Where are the BBC boards located. I did a search but was unable to find em.

[beth]

I'd like to warn you against the impending misery that you face if you continue further into this relationship without some sort of resolve. You really need to sit down and talk with her. Tell her how you feel and how you want to raise your children. See if you can find some sort of compromise. Explain the problems that you have with fundamentalism. Look for books at the library that concerns fundamentalism in religion. Also, one book that truly helped me to lose grip of my Christianity was Who Killed Jesus? by John Crossan. It helped me to see that the NT was a book of fiction and that the Christian God really wasn't there to condemn me to hell for my disbelief. If you could get her to read it with an open mind, it might break the hold that fundamentalism has on her. But if she is unwilling to compromise, I advise against a more serious relationship. I am now here where you will one day be. It isn't fun.

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

brett, It may be hard now, but married with children, it will be several order of magnitudes harder still.

Oh, I can imagine. If it's hard thinking about ending a relationship and starting with someone else now, then it will only get harder when children and marriage are involved.


You're getting the message alright. You're just not getting the whole message. It's not just your beliefs that she holds second and inferior to her own. It's you as a person. You are a heathen. Damned and dishonored by God himself. If that hasn't come across yet, it will. This will be the root of all your personality problems. This will be the root of all your relationship problems.

Hmm. She hasn't made this point clear to me yet, but I noticed how people think when they are gripped with fundamentalism. Some of her friends in the church do hold beliefs like that. So far she hasn't seemed to think the Atheist is inferior to everyone else, but merely misguided. It's conceivable that as she hangs around these people those ideas will slowly begin to sink in more, though.

The only reason she hasn't written you off yet is that you still have hope. She's hoping you'll see the light of God, get down on your knees in a pool of you're own sweat, piss, and vomit and praise Jesus right along with her! Thanks to Vicar Phillip for that visual.:D

LMAO!! :notworthy

This is not how you want to be looked upon by your significant other. You're clinging to this girl, but really, you've read into the relationship things that are just not real. You're clinging to something that's not real, and so is she.

You're probably right. I still don't want to give up just yet, but then again I don't know that there's much hope for reconciliation here.

I wouldn't count on that happening. She's got quite a support group, and fundies specialise in getting their claws into people and never, ever letting go. Wresting souls away from the devil and hanging onto them for all they're worth is the basic reason for existence of many fundies.

Yeah, so true. I sometimes post on a fundy board. Their entire tactic is keeping the people who are new to the faith away from the serious discussions. They don't want new believers to be exposed to arguments which may damage their faith. They want the new convert to stay around awhile until the belief is internal to the point that reason won't sway them, at which point they are considered stubborn enough to partake of the serious debates. I'm afraid they're dragging my g/f down the same path.

These people are deranged. If your girlfriend carries on being around them after showing signs of softening to their position, she's lost.

I hope not, but I don't see any signs of her really thinking through what they say.

Brighid, Your attitude and insight are refreshing. The confidence you appear to posses that allows you to take such realistic looks at your own feelings and acknowledge the situation, while still maintaining an altruistic sense of hope is wonderful. I applaud you.

Aww, thanks Brighid. :)

I feel very sad for your girlfriend though. I don’t think she realizes what a gem she is losing to her faith. If her God can look down on you … well He is a pretty pathetic God, but my opinions on this subject are well known :D

I actually share your opinions about this subject. Back when she was a more liberal believer I told her that I thought any god who would send people to hell for a little "error" in judgement deserved no worship from me. She agreed at the time, but then again she also thought that only the truly bad went to hell too. I can only hope my comment stays in the back of her mind during all this.

At the time she was being courted by two different men, one was a “good Christian” and the other was not religious but I cannot say if he was an atheist. My mother married the good, Christian man. I later met the “other” man and was flabbergasted that my mother chose this GC man over him.

Oh brother. This will likely by my girlfriend's situation should we split up. I don't see her dating another non-Christian at this point, and she may end up with somebody who is not good for her. :(

Paul, I'd suggest going to church with her. Go to those meetings or whatever. Hang out with these friends. Fight the system with the system.

I did go to one of their meetings, but it wasn't exactly a Bible study thing. They were working on some kind of play thing, and my g/f wanted me to see it. She invited me to see what she spent so much time working on, so I went. That was about it, though. I don't want to make a habit about this because she may think that I can be converted and it would only complicate the issue. I want my position to be clear, and habitually going to church or Bible studies would just muddy the waters.

, I'll check out that link when I get back from Spring Break. I certainly don't want to put her on the defensive as it would only make her beliefs even stronger. I'm trying to find that fine line between serious discussions and the heavy debates. I don't want her to think she has to defend her cherished beliefs, but rather come to understand and tolerate my beliefs better. Hopefully the site will help.

[B]Michael, religion isn't dominating the rest of her life as you seem to be alluding to, but it is getting a little more prominent. For example, she's into Anime and the like. On a recent trip her church group went on, she and some of her friends played with little Mc. Donald's anime dolls to pass the time. The whol premise of the game was that one of the characters was a strong Atheist, and another was a Christian. In the end, the Christian ended up winning and converting the other one. Basically, she is starting to find ways to bring God into her hobbies and pasttimes. It's not a huge thing right now, but she's doing it more and more.

-Nick

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

RRH, This places her in the position of defending your atheism on your behalf. It seems she has opted not to do so, and is instead passing the attack along to you.

Hmm. I'm not entirely sure that this is what's going on, but it may be the case. To my knowledge she doesn't have to deal with those direct questions about my faith very often. However, in church groups they may bring up points about Atheists (they are fools who do no good, etc), and she may be trying to reconcile her knowledge of me with what they are telling her. Perhaps the same mechanism is working in this case too.

And since you yourself have had to defend atheism, you can give her tips. She has probably been reluctant to discuss religion with you because she is scared that she'll just get attacked from both sides. So make it clear you are criticizing what they have been telling her, and not trying to change her own beliefs.

I've been really careful not to attack her beliefs, and not to seem like I'm criticizing her. However, I can see where I might come across that way at times. Perhaps the best thing I can do is explicitly state that I'm not trying to challenge her beliefs, but rather the beliefs of what these people are telling her. If she at least understands my reactions to their arguments, and how I think, then perhaps she'll be better able to detect their loads of bovine excrement when it comes to atheism.

Yeah, recon couldn't hurt in this case. But be clear to your girlfriend your real reasons for coming along. No need to let her think you are about to change.

I might come along on the odd occasion, but I don't want it to be a habit. Even if I make it clear that I don't want to change, she could perceive my frequent visits as an attempt to learn more about God secretly so that I don't have to admit that I was wrong. I don't want her getting the wrong impressions about me, but I also don't want her to think that I'm avoiding religion because of whatever bad experiences I might've supposedly had.

Puck, Yeah, red flags popping up all over the place, with bells going off, bing, bing, bing.

I feel sorry for the next person who ends up in my situation. Looks like I took all the red flags and bells for my own. <shrug>

Along with several others, the one that really caught my eye was you thinking that you had to pick 'just the right time' to have a discussion. NO! In a healthy relationship, the parties get it out in the open asap. If you have to walk on egg shells trying to manuver just the right time/place to discuss something so basic and integral, then you are working alone, and not with a partner.

Well, we are otherwise secure enough that we can talk about the really important issues at any time. I just know that our discussion will end up in a temporary unhappiness, even if we do agree. It'll be hard to talk about more mundane happy subjects after this conversation, so I don't want to mess up a perfectly good evening for this. There are times when we are both more prepared to discuss these issues, and those times wouldn't compromise anything else we might have planned. It's hard for me to put my thoughts into words, but it's not so much me finding the right time to talk about it because other times are unacceptable, but rather it's about me not wanting to mess up a laidback and lively evening with a serious discussion.

From everything you have said, I'd say quit tip-toeing around her crazy cult beliefs. At this point, with her background and her already having changed her stance twice, I'd say that even if you two 'worked things out', and you married and had children, there's a pretty high chance that you'd be facing this all over again, with the subsequent heartache of having your children torn up, too.

You may be right. She might regress into her current beliefs later on once children come along and this issue isn't an abstract event which might happen at an indeterminate time in the future. It would be relatively easy to agree to letting us teach the children equally when no children are around. When the threat of eternal hellfire for her own children becomes real she may regress, though. I don't know what she would do, though. I'll just have to have a serious discussion about this and watch the issue carefully to see if she would stick to her word.


Only you can make the choices, and opinions are like assholes; mine is cut and run

eww!!! :D

Tell her you love her, but you can't bear the idea of your children being brainwashed any more than she can bear the thought of them burning in hell, and you must protect your future children from such cruelty.

That would surely put her on the defensive if I hope to reconcile the issue. However, it might be something worth bringing up if we decide to breakup. It would make the breakup a little easier for her because she wouldn't place all the blame on herself (regardless of whether or not that's the case).

{{{{{Puck}}}}}

Dave, If you do decide to talk to her about this, make a clear distinction between her religious beliefs, which you respect, and the beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors of the specific fundy crowd she is hanging with. Remind her that faith may come from God, but churches and rules are made up by people.

I'll do that. It would be extremely counterproductive for me to put her on the defensive on the issue and then hope to reconcile things.

Ask her how much of this she really believes in her heart and how much she is conforming to a social group. If she is being drawn into fundyism there may be a chance to pull her back to a more mature form of Christianity.

I'll be sure to do that. She does show some independence when it comes to homosexuality and other such topics, so there is still some hope. If I could just get her back to her old belief that only the truly bad go to hell, and that good people (regardless of belief) go to heaven I would likely be fine. I'll have to wait and see what happens.

Seeker, Once Pascal's Wafer is in their physical presence the pressure would be really on to bring him into the "fold". They would probably also bring additional pressure on his girlfriend to convert him or dump him--the unevenly yolked thing.

Hmm. I haven't considered that point, but you may be on to something. So long as I lay low there wouldn't be so much pressure from them to convert me. I don't see where the very occasional visit would do any harm, but I certainly don't want to make a habit out of coming along.

blondegoddess, I'd like to warn you against the impending misery that you face if you continue further into this relationship without some sort of resolve. You really need to sit down and talk with her. Tell her how you feel and how you want to raise your children. See if you can find some sort of compromise.

I hope to be able to do this. If we can't come up with a good compromise I'm not going to commit to a prolonged or binding relationship. We should both be on the same page at that point, and that won't happen until this issue is resolved. If she knows how I feel about this, then maybe she would be willing to compromise. I have my doubts, but maybe...

It helped me to see that the NT was a book of fiction and that the Christian God really wasn't there to condemn me to hell for my disbelief. If you could get her to read it with an open mind, it might break the hold that fundamentalism has on her.

I don't want to go about trying to change her beliefs around, but then again her beliefs are also causing some trouble in the relationship. Though it would be nice, I don't want her to feel compelled to give up her faith for me. That said, it would be nice if she examined some of the milder versions of Christianity. I'll at least suggest some books or websites for her to browse. If I can make it seem like it was her idea to study this, then life would be great for us.

-Nick

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

Hey guys, I'm going to Bike Week in a couple hours. Spring Break is next week too. So, I won't be around to reply for awhile. I'll be sure to respond to any future comments when I get back, so please don't think I'm leaving my own thread. Thanks guys, and have a good week!!

-Nick

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by RRH
Yeah, recon couldn't hurt in this case. But be clear to your girlfriend your real reasons for coming along. No need to let her think you are about to change.

Been there done that. Will it work? I doubt it. Will it help? Well let's see. She wants you to go. She'll be happy that you go. She doesn't want you to go just to go though. She's not going to be happy that you go but don't get the message. She's certainly not going to be happy if you question her or the church. She will eventually be frustrated that you don't get the message and you decide to stop going altogether.

Will it hurt? Life is short. Who wants to spend an hour with a bunch of people who if they knew how you felt, they'd give you a sour look like you just farted in the elevator? It will also further her hope that if you go to church, there's hope you'll get the message. As compared to "face it, I'm an atheist. There is no God, you're wasting your life, I don't want to waste mine." Her reaction to the bottom line here might be very enlightening with respect to your feelings towards her.

That's easy to say. If my wife had originally acted so born again like this girl, it probably would have been offensive enough that I would have dumped her. Unfortunately, I didn't find out until after I was married, and she was pregnant. It's not the end of the world to live with a christian. If it's not the conflict over religion, you'll find plenty else. I just think the main thing is to find out up front if possible if this is going to be a show stopper issue for either of you. We certainly see the posts here the day after christians dump their boyfriend/girlfriends for God. Finding out sooner is better than later.

[beth]

I don't want to go about trying to change her beliefs around, but then again her beliefs are also causing some trouble in the relationship. Though it would be nice, I don't want her to feel compelled to give up her faith for me. That said, it would be nice if she examined some of the milder versions of Christianity. I'll at least suggest some books or websites for her to browse. If I can make it seem like it was her idea to study this, then life would be great for us. I am not suggesting for you to try to take her faith from her, that would be wrong to do. I was already deconverting when I read the book, so I was ready to give up the Christian ideas. I just think that it would help her to be a little more skeptical and possibly keep her from getting too wrapped up in fundamentalism. If she is willing to talk, I would try to warn her of the dangers of fundamentalism. If I had not totally lost belief in a god, I probably would have seeked out a more liberal church like one of my friends advised. It is good that you respect her faith. I just think there are many problems with a relationship between a fundie and an atheist. The fundie will never be satisfied till you convert.

[Albion]

Where are the BBC boards located. I did a search but was unable to find em.


BBC boards:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/messageboards/

BBC Religion boards:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/h2/h2.cgi?x=y&board=religion&state=init

But things are fairly quiet on the missionary front at the moment, although the Jewish board was up in arms about visits from messianic Jews a couple of weeks ago.

The "see latest messages" feature hasn't been working for the last few days, not that anybody's bothering to tell us when it'll be fixed. Makes it hard to follow recent posts. And the boards are only open during certain hours because people can't be trusted to post during times when mods aren't there. There's a good reason why the BBC is known as "Auntie."

[Thanatoast]

This can't be good for your sex life, dude :(

[UntamedSeductress]

How are things going Nick? Have you had a chance to speak to your gf?

[Rhea]

The thing that sets off the ringing claxon for me is her saying you will have no say-so in an important aspect of your children's upbringing. It raises some serious questions.

1. Is she parent material if she thinks it is okay to deny a father access to his kids' upbringing?

2. Is she parent material if she is willing to raise kids with a man who would be willing to have no say in his chidrens' upbringing?

3. Will there be other aspects of childrearing when you will be required to relinquish your duty to your children in favor of your obligation to your wife?

4. And she _wants_ this kind of marriage?

I would run FAR, FAR, FAR away from a relationship with a person who thinks a parent should be required to not care for their children. Aside from the inherent insult of her pronouncing you "wrong" publicly because of this issue, there is the deeper insult of thinking that you wouldn't care about your kids.

I can see continuing in this relationship to see if things change for as long as there is no commitment/obligation/promise, but I would suggest NEVER making a commitment to start a family with someone who thinks that it is okay to strip your parental rights.

I'd even bring it up to her. "What kind of father would I be if I was stripped of my parental care, obligation and rights? Do you really want to marry someone who would be willing to discard his care and obligation to his children? What kind of loving parent would that be?"

To have her proclaim that you "have no say-so" is scary bullshit. I say, as a parent. She'd have to make an _airtight_ case to show it wasn't going to seep into any other aspect of their upbringing. I just don't see her as a trustworthy parent if she thinks that's an okay way for _either_ parent to behave.

I would second DO NOT expect anyone to change. And BEWARE of changes being short-lived. You owe your kids a complete and unequivocal resolution.

And yes, there are LOTS of non-fundy women who will make wonderful partners - PARTNERS - in parenting.

[Proxima Centauri]

Nick said, Even if I make it clear that I don't want to change, she could perceive my frequent visits (to the Fundy Church) as an attempt to learn more about God secretly so that I don't have to admit that I was wrong. You could try going to some Liberal Churches or Unitarian Churches. She'll want to come with you to help convert you. Then she'll learn more liberal beliefs.

[brighid]

I would personally recommend visiting a UU Church if one is available in your area, if you want to take this course of action. If nothing else it might be a way for you to meet other atheists and agnostics in your area and this might produce fruit with regard to friendships and/or a support network.

Here is a link to find one in your area: http://www.uua.org/CONG/index.html

I would agree that going to a liberal Christian Church might send her the wrong signal about your “underlying” desire to find her God. UU Churches can be a good alternative.

Brighid

[Kintaro]

For example, she's into Anime and the like. On a recent trip her church group went on, she and some of her friends played with little Mc. Donald's anime dolls to pass the time. The whol premise of the game was that one of the characters was a strong Atheist, and another was a Christian. In the end, the Christian ended up winning and converting the other one. Basically, she is starting to find ways to bring God into her hobbies and pasttimes. It's not a huge thing right now, but she's doing it more and more.

Yay, anime!

Bring her blasphemous stuff, like Evangelion. Despite the name, the 17 angels are supposively from some Jewish mythology, it features a lot of death, emotional conflict, rage, etc...

There's also any animated series where people aspire to rule the world, become god, have divine powers (Like X , the name of the main character himself Kamui, is derived from the character for God/divinity), etc...

But seriously, how can a fundie enjoy anime, so many blasphemous things are in them, elements of Japanese life, shrines and temples of another faith, cross-wearers who show no belief whatsoever.

It's beyond me. Anime and atheism go together side by side. Sure there are some references to divinities, but to have an open mind to even accept 50 % of what's produced requires a certain amount of common sense unshadowed by religion.


Go to church and confront her there. Take a pick, it's me or god, and if she runs towards you, tell her to stop, and think about it. You want a real choice, the truth, right there and then. Be prepared to move out or arrange for her to be able to leave as soon as possible. You should be loving enough to let her leave, If God's not capable, then we really know who loves/loved her.


It's lasted long enough, wake up her mind or cut her loose. You're hurting yourself more by not resolving it once and for all, regardless of outcome. I won't say Good luck, cause it has nothing to do with it. Just do it. As I said, love is only bonus. Unless you let it eat at you. You let it last another week in this illusion, it will hurt you more than what you started out with.

[Proxima Centauri]

Originally posted by B.Shack
You could try going to some Liberal Churches or Unitarian Churches. She'll want to come with you to help convert you. Then she'll learn more liberal beliefs.
I know getting your girlfriend to a Liberal Church that way would not be quite honest. A good way to run your life is to tell the truth at all times except when the truth can cause harm or when a lie can prevent harm. If you go to liberal churches and pretent you are interested this could prevent your girlfriend being a miserable God fearing, (Hell fearing) Fundy for the rest of her life. Therefore I don't think it wourld necessarily be wrong for you to do this.
Even if you manage to get her away from fundyism there is always the risk that her friends and family will pile on the pressure to 'refundify' her should you and she ever be married with children. You can never avoid all risk in life. I don't envy you. You know the people involved. You must decide what to do.

[Solsticin]

Big religions of the world all want to indoctrinate your kids as early as possible for one reason. IT WORKS. They damn well KNOW this is why they do it too. It's well documented. That's why they are a BIG religion.

The question YOU have to ask yourself is ... Is Christianity so bad? What harm is there in your kids being Christians? What is it that makes you care so much?

When you answer that question you will know what do to bud. It's not a hard question, but answer it honestly.

Personally I would tell her why you are breaking up with her to show her that this is SERIOUS. Most people take Christianity as a religion because it is easy and socially acceptable. Maybe you showing her that it is objectionable to you personally (is it??) will help her. The EARLIER you deal with this the better. You need to either stop this fast (she's gonna get worse via more indocrtrination) or leave.

Breaking it off will do one of two things. She will either restrain herself and try to stay with you (which will at least make her think and leave her open to your opinion), or she will become even more of a convert (most people in church got there via bad circumstance in their life, you know, like *cough* break ups, or something like that). I had an ex do something that might not be as common ... she hated god for us breaking up. She thought she could convert me and when I left her (same situation you have btw and I mean EXACTLY) she hated god for breaking us up. Weird huh? She has since became an atheist, but it really kills her being one (which is very sad, I have to admit). She was raised that way and it's HARD letting go of something your entire existance was based on. If I were a crying person, I think that losing a belief held to such a degree would make me openly weep to see it happen to anyone. I'm not sure deconversion is always the best thing for some. :( Anyway ....

Me and my wife differ in religious belief but we have a firm relationship and are friends. It's not a big deal, and it damned well SHOULDN'T be a big deal. It took me a long time to find her, but I'm glad I did.

You know, there are other women. You date to see if you are compatible. It's trial and error situation. Maybe this is a sign that it's time to move on and try someone else?

Hope this helps. Not sure it will. I feel for you in the situation cause I know what it's like (happened twice to me). Try to remember that life is short (it really is) and that there are always other fish in the sea, even though it never seems like it. I promise :)

[Bluenose]

From I Ate P W's last post it appeared that he would be back in a week or so...............BUT it has been a month and I am begining to worry whether anything has happened ????????

:confused:

[Kintaro]

That is a somewhat legitimate concern...


I also wonder where he is off to. Because if the relation is still on, the issue had better been resolved (pref. any way than by lying to himself to please her) and if it's over, why didn't he mention it yet ?


I mean, it's not like suicide or overdosing on a webcam, I'm sure he should be able to reply...


...


... unless the worst case scenario has happened, which would be his girlfriend committing M/S , or the next worse, him getting in a fatal accident of some sort. And if that has happened, by what he said, his entourage wouldn't say so online. (If I die, I'd want a friend to post my obituary online to all the forums I used to visit.)

edit-note : his last post was in this thread, he wasn't active anywhere else. To die before reaching 1337 posts.... a real shame.

[Solsticin]

PW said:
Hey guys, I'm going to Bike Week in a couple hours. Spring Break is next week too. So, I won't be around to reply for awhile. I'll be sure to respond to any future comments when I get back, so please don't think I'm leaving my own thread. Thanks guys, and have a good week!!

He's likely just getting settled back in I'd imagine. Don't jump to conclusions please ;) He did say a week though ....

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

Hey guys, I'm sorry about the long delay. I know, I know, I said a week. What can ya do? There are only so many hours in a day...This past month has been pretty busy with schoolwork and junk like that. We've passed the climax of the semester, though, so I'll have some free time again.

brettc, Been there done that. Will it work? I doubt it. Will it help? Well let's see. She wants you to go. She'll be happy that you go. She doesn't want you to go just to go though. She's not going to be happy that you go but don't get the message. She's certainly not going to be happy if you question her or the church. She will eventually be frustrated that you don't get the message and you decide to stop going altogether.

Yeah, you're right. At first she was inviting me along to her church because she thought it would enlighten me. Later on she actually didn't want me to come because she thought it would be hypocritical of me to come. She also didn't even want me going on little trips with her youth group to go bowling or whatever it is because she thought it would be hypocritical of me to spend time with an organized group of Christians.

Anyway, she already said that she only wanted me coming if I would listen to the message. I do listen to what they have to say, but I won't necessarily accept it, and that's what she's getting at. It would send her false signals to go to church and let her think I'm considering her religion when I'm really not.

Who wants to spend an hour with a bunch of people who if they knew how you felt, they'd give you a sour look like you just farted in the elevator?

LOL!!! Thanks for the image!

blondegoddess, I am not suggesting for you to try to take her faith from her, that would be wrong to do. I was already deconverting when I read the book, so I was ready to give up the Christian ideas. I just think that it would help her to be a little more skeptical and possibly keep her from getting too wrapped up in fundamentalism. If she is willing to talk, I would try to warn her of the dangers of fundamentalism.

Alright, I'll try to figure out a way to do this. It's really tough since she doesn't really like reading about stuff like this, and she certainly won't like reading anything which might remotely be challenging her faith. It'll take some careful thought on my part, but I may be able to persuade her to at least read over some simple books that wouldn't necessarily challenge her faith, but might make her reconsider fundamentalism.

I'd even bring it up to her. "What kind of father would I be if I was stripped of my parental care, obligation and rights? Do you really want to marry someone who would be willing to discard his care and obligation to his children? What kind of loving parent would that be?"

Hmm, that's a good perspective that I didn't quite think about. If I didn't tell my children about my various beliefs, then it would suggest that I don't care enough about their beliefs to ensure that they have a broad understanding of various world beliefs, and it would suggest that I don't care about my own beliefs because I am willing to suppress them for a relationship. Additionally, it implies that I don't value the relationship because I am willing to be submissive rather than strive for a two-way relationship. I wouldn't be a good parent or good husband if I did something like that.


I would second DO NOT expect anyone to change. And BEWARE of changes being short-lived. You owe your kids a complete and unequivocal resolution.

Yeah, I'm not going to commit to anything until we can completely resolve the issue. We've come to a basic understanding now, but we still haven't worked out everything.

B. Shack, You could try going to some Liberal Churches or Unitarian Churches. She'll want to come with you to help convert you. Then she'll learn more liberal beliefs.

I'm not so sure. She might get the wrong impression that I'm actually looking to convert if we start doing this. It might be a good way to get her to learn more liberal beliefs, but it would be a sneaky thing for me to do. I want to be as honest as I can in the relationship, and it would only send the wrong messages if I started "faking it" in order to bring her to a milder form of xianity.

Brighid, I would agree that going to a liberal Christian Church might send her the wrong signal about your “underlying” desire to find her God. UU Churches can be a good alternative.

I might check out the UU church. I'll have to think of a way to get my g/f to come with me without thinking that I'm trying to convert, or to deconvert her, but I think it could be good.

-Nick

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

Kintaro, Bring her blasphemous stuff, like Evangelion. Despite the name, the 17 angels are supposively from some Jewish mythology, it features a lot of death, emotional conflict, rage, etc...

There's also any animated series where people aspire to rule the world, become god, have divine powers (Like X , the name of the main character himself Kamui, is derived from the character for God/divinity), etc...

LOL!! I could do that. Oddly enough she might enjoy that kind of stuff rather than seeing it as some kind of evil attack against her deity. She would probably attribute any similarities to the differences in culture or something like that. Besides, if I start bringing her anime videos to watch, then she would expect me to start getting more into it with her. :-D


It's beyond me. Anime and atheism go together side by side. Sure there are some references to divinities, but to have an open mind to even accept 50 % of what's produced requires a certain amount of common sense unshadowed by religion.

Well, I guess she watches some of the milder anime episodes. I'm not a big follower by any means, but the few episodes I've seen of DBZ only have that Satan guy as a direct character from a religion, and she thinks that's funny rather than blasphemous as he is an idiot in the videos. I think you'd have to stretch the other concepts a bit to derive any religious innuendos, and she doesn't read all that much into it.

Go to church and confront her there. Take a pick, it's me or god, and if she runs towards you, tell her to stop, and think about it. You want a real choice, the truth, right there and then. Be prepared to move out or arrange for her to be able to leave as soon as possible. You should be loving enough to let her leave, If God's not capable, then we really know who loves/loved her.

Well, I'm not trying to get her to decide between her faith and me. If her faith is conflicting with our relationship, then it would be better for us to break up. If we can come to a mutual decision without causing her to conflict with her faith in anyway, then we might be able to make the relationship work out.

It's lasted long enough, wake up her mind or cut her loose. You're hurting yourself more by not resolving it once and for all, regardless of outcome. I won't say Good luck, cause it has nothing to do with it. Just do it. As I said, love is only bonus. Unless you let it eat at you. You let it last another week in this illusion, it will hurt you more than what you started out with.

Yeah, you're right. We've talked about it off and on a bit, but I couldn't get a deeper discussion started. We'll talk for a bit tonight and I'm going to really try to get her to discuss this seriously with me. My conversation starting isn't exactly award winning, and I'm not exactly the most forceful out there, but I will try to get her to talk about this with me more in depth.

B. Shack, I know getting your girlfriend to a Liberal Church that way would not be quite honest. A good way to run your life is to tell the truth at all times except when the truth can cause harm or when a lie can prevent harm. If you go to liberal churches and pretent you are interested this could prevent your girlfriend being a miserable God fearing, (Hell fearing) Fundy for the rest of her life. Therefore I don't think it wourld necessarily be wrong for you to do this.

This is true, but if I did this and she found out that I wasn't seriously looking to find religion it would likely cost us the relationship anyway. I certainly wouldn't expect her to want to stay, because if I were to do this it would indicate that I'm playing with her emotions and beliefs in order to bring her down to a safe level of religion. She just might be defundified because of this, but it would cost us the relationship. Besides, if we managed to day together, I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that I went to that extreme to defundify her.

Even if you manage to get her away from fundyism there is always the risk that her friends and family will pile on the pressure to 'refundify' her should you and she ever be married with children. You can never avoid all risk in life. I don't envy you. You know the people involved. You must decide what to do.

Luckily, her grandparents are the only really religious people in her whole family. Neither of her parents express any religious belief, and her brother hasn't gone to church in years. Her aunt and cousin seem religious, but don't go to church and don't express many religious beliefs. Her other cousin goes to the same youth group, but she only seems along for the ride as it's just something for her to do. I don't think there would be much pressure to come back to fundyism should she ever decide to find a more liberal xian belief.

Solsticin, The question YOU have to ask yourself is ... Is Christianity so bad? What harm is there in your kids being Christians? What is it that makes you care so much?

I imagine this is rhetorical, but I'll answer anyway just to get my thoughts out there.

Christianity isn't really so bad, and I wouldn't mind at all if my children decided to become Christians. However, I want them to come by their beliefs honestly and with an open mind. I want them to know that there are other beliefs out there, and know the reasons other people have for believing what they do. In light of that, if they still decide to become Christians, then I will support their decisions. It's not so much the possibility of them becoming Christians that bothers me, but rather the indoctrination of them by suppressing other beliefs that bothers me.

Breaking it off will do one of two things. She will either restrain herself and try to stay with you (which will at least make her think and leave her open to your opinion), or she will become even more of a convert (most people in church got there via bad circumstance in their life, you know, like *cough* break ups, or something like that).

Hmm, this is a good point. She knows that we have a good relationship every other way possible, and she knows that relationships like ours are not common. Thus, if I were to break up with her (or even discuss the possibility of this happening), then she might get a big reality check and reconsider her position.

I don't want to use our relationship as a persuasive tool, though, so this would likely only help once we have already broken up. It won't help our relationship, but maybe the next guy will have an easier time.

Bluenose, From I Ate P W's last post it appeared that he would be back in a week or so...............BUT it has been a month and I am begining to worry whether anything has happened ????????

Hey!! I'm so sorry I haven't been posting. I'm fine, and nothing has happened. I've just been busy with schoolwork and junk like that. The week after I was back I had some big tests to study for, and it's been downhill since then. I'm doing fine, but really needed the extra time to keep up with my studies.

Kintaro,
I also wonder where he is off to. Because if the relation is still on, the issue had better been resolved (pref. any way than by lying to himself to please her) and if it's over, why didn't he mention it yet ?

We've talked about religion somewhat since I've last been on, but I never managed to steer the converation to talking about religion as it applies to our relationship. We've worked out a few minor issues, and we can both mutually tolerate each others religious beliefs. Her reactions were just her inability to understand my position combined with her new-found belief that I was going to hell. So far that issue is resolved, but we never did get to talk about our relationship and how we will raise the children (the big issue we've been discussing, I know...). I am trying to work on it, though. I'll talk with her tonight after I get offline and I'll be more assertive this time at steering the conversation to this topic. I'll let you all know the results of the conversation later on.

... unless the worst case scenario has happened, which would be his girlfriend committing M/S , or the next worse, him getting in a fatal accident of some sort. And if that has happened, by what he said, his entourage wouldn't say so online. (If I die, I'd want a friend to post my obituary online to all the forums I used to visit.)

Oh no, if something like that happened you guys would know about it. If something happened to my g/f I may not post much here, but I would let you all know what happened. If something happened to me, then I should hope a friend of mine (or one of the local infidels, maybe) would post something online. I hope you guys weren't too worried about me. It was just lots of schoolwork, nothing too serious.

Solsticin,

He's likely just getting settled back in I'd imagine. Don't jump to conclusions please ;) He did say a week though ....

Yeah, sorry about that. You know what they say, though: "A single week is but a whole month in the sight of Nick." Er, something like that...

-Nick

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

Hey guys, I just wanted to apologize again for taking so long to get back here. I'm sorry you all were really worried about me, and I should've made the time to check back in. I'm fine, though, and I see no reason why I wouldn't be able to post regularly again.

-Nick

[Bluenose]

Originally posted by I ate Pascal's Wafer
I might check out the UU church. I'll have to think of a way to get my g/f to come with me without thinking that I'm trying to convert, or to deconvert her, but I think it could be good.

-Nick

Rather than take her, go when she is at her church, then when she talks about her church you can talk about all the neat kewl atheist / agnostic girls you have meet at UU................

Many UUs think of it as a social club for activists and a way to support worthy causes. Many UU groups do not even call themselves a church, but rather a UU Fellowship or Society.

[All's fair in love and war, you know]

;) ;)

[Bluenose]

Hey!! I'm so sorry I haven't been posting. I'm fine, and nothing has happened. I've just been busy with schoolwork and junk like that. The week after I was back I had some big tests to study for, and it's been downhill since then. I'm doing fine, but really needed the extra time to keep up with my studies.

-Nick [/QUOTE]

I knew you were a serious student,

BUT .............ready the LOL etc

You might have fallen off your bike and sprained your clicker finger.

OR, been abducted by a UFO...

AND taken to the top secret recovery ward on your return and the gov. was too cheap to provide a Web connection....

:banghead:

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

Bluenose, Rather than take her, go when she is at her church, then when she talks about her church you can talk about all the neat kewl atheist / agnostic girls you have meet at UU................

LOL!!! That just might work. :D

All's fair in love and war, you know

LOL! You're going to go to hell for suggesting that, and I would end up going for following the suggestion. :D


I knew you were a serious student,

Read: nerd. I've been getting that entirely too much lately...:)

You might have fallen off your bike and sprained your clicker finger.

OR, been abducted by a UFO...

AND taken to the top secret recovery ward on your return and the gov. was too cheap to provide a Web connection....

Maybe...I fell off my bike and was taken to a top secret recovery ward. Once there, aliens abducted my clicker finger. I had access to the internet, but I couldn't get online until the rescue squad recovered my finger. :D

-Nick

[brighid]

Nick,

Thank you for updating everyone on your situation!

Hey, the nerd comment ... later on in life there will be women who find that very attractive. I, for one, am one of those women who likes a certain "geek quotent" (as my gf's and I refer to it as.) A really intelligent, genuine guy (such as yourself) is an incredible turn on. Unfortunately, not all women see guys this way, especially during highschool and college years, but around the mid-twenties some us come to learn that the "nerd" is the best way to go! Now of course I must add that you can't be unkempt and TOO far on the geek/nerd end of the spectrum :P, but if your posts are any reflection of who you are I would say you are just about right where (if I were MUCH younger and single) a woman such as myself would find those attributes very attractive.

My husband has the "geek quotent" and although he is very attractive man his brain is the sexiest thing about him. He is also very genuine ... and so much more, but I won't gush (and make others ill) with all those details.

And if you are cute to boot ... well, then this girl is really going to regret losing you someday. She is VERY lucky to have a boyfriend that is so thoughtful, respectful and caring. Sadly, females her age (and even some much older) are not always mature enough to understand how truly wonderful those qualities are in a partner.

You seem to have this situation under control. I hope it all works out for the best, and if she is not the "one" that you meet a woman who will appreciate you for all your fine qualities (which is what you deserve anyway.)

Brighid

[I ate Pascal's Wafer]

Brighid, Hey, the nerd comment ... later on in life there will be women who find that very attractive. I, for one, am one of those women who likes a certain "geek quotent" (as my gf's and I refer to it as.)

LOL! I know a few girls who also find guys with a higher "geek quotient" attractive. Of course they are nerds too, but that's beside the point. Everyone is blissful in expressive our nerdness.

A really intelligent, genuine guy (such as yourself) is an incredible turn on. Unfortunately, not all women see guys this way, especially during highschool and college years, but around the mid-twenties some us come to learn that the "nerd" is the best way to go!

Yeah, so true. There are a happy few women who seem to be attracted to smarter "nerdy" guys over the good looking ones (unless the nerds happen to be good looking too). Far too many of my friends aren't like that, though. They set themselves up for failure because they chase guys who look good to them, but have awful personalities and are not all that bright either. Ah well, hopefully they will learn sooner or later.

Now of course I must add that you can't be unkempt and TOO far on the geek/nerd end of the spectrum :P, but if your posts are any reflection of who you are I would say you are just about right where (if I were MUCH younger and single) a woman such as myself would find those attributes very attractive.

Aw, thanks Brighid. I try not to be too nerdy most of the time, but there is the odd time that my nerdness comes through. That one time when I got excited when our Linguistic Anthropology teacher showed us a formula for determining when two languages split, and I got to play with my calculator to help him figure out the problems, was one example where I let my inner nerd show through. I'm not usually like that. Most of the time. :D

You seem to have this situation under control. I hope it all works out for the best, and if she is not the "one" that you meet a woman who will appreciate you for all your fine qualities (which is what you deserve anyway.)

:) Yeah, I think I know pretty much what I need to do, and what would be best in the long run. The only thing I have to convince myself of is that I would find somebody who would like me for who I am if my current relationship can't be resolved. I know I can, but the whole confidence thing is something I have to work on.

-Nick

[brighid]

Yeah, so true. There are a happy few women who seem to be attracted to smarter "nerdy" guys over the good looking ones (unless the nerds happen to be good looking too). Far too many of my friends aren't like that, though. They set themselves up for failure because they chase guys who look good to them, but have awful personalities and are not all that bright either. Ah well, hopefully they will learn sooner or later.

Sadly, I know women well into their 30’s that still think and act the same way. Yet they have the audacity to complain about how horrible their relationships are! Well DUH! After a while I just don’t want to hear their belly aching any more, especially when they become rather jealous and bitchy because I found success without dating Brad Pitt. Unfortunately, that whole scenario has been the root of the demise of a few of my friendships. OH WELL …

I know this probably sounds cliché … but you are young, so young and there are going to be so many opportunities to meet all sorts of wonderful people. Don’t be in any rush to find, have or keep a girlfriend. Plus, sample all the delicious flavors out there before settling on one … that is what college is for! But then again, I am a very bad girl and that might not be the advice you need :D

Here is an anecdotal story to hopefully provide you will a glimmer of hope: I have a very close friend who is the kind of woman who can wake up in the morning and look stunning. In my opinion she is one of the most gorgeous women I know. She also has a PhD in philosophy. She fell in love with the guy, who upon first glance you would never picture HER with. He is definitely a nerd, but he is also a really, really smart, fantastic guy. Initially they look like a rather odd couple. She is a geek in her own right, don’t get me wrong but as you