To all on this board...PLEASE! I'd like your advice

[Soul Invictus]

I used to go to church and believe most of the stories I was told, however even as a child, I asked many critical questions that got the usual "God works in mysterious ways" and "We weren't meant to know all the answers" type of responses. It wasn't until my adulthood that I had the ability to check and research things for myself to see that things didn't quite add up to what I was being told. My girlfriend and I are having some particularly disturbing trials now, that may not be reconcilable, we both recognize this, so that why I'm posting here. Hopefully those already married can give a lot of feedback. I started going with her about 2 years ago, when I was more in the church, which was cool because she wanted a Christian man. Although I had my concerns at that time, it wasn't an issue really..Even I felt that my searching was probably just a rebellious "kick" at the time. But it wasn't a kick. I've gradually become more liberal in my thinking. Not quite to the point of atheism, but I use the same line of questioning for understanding of inconsistencies and contradictions, because I generally cannot accept certain things. She wants to raise children in a Christian household, which I would want her to define to me. IMO, fundamentally there are Christian precepts that I'm fine with, like the spirit of charity, giving, etc. I have issues with certain particulars, such as the exodus and great flood theories. Even within the Christian community, there's a strong sentiment on these being cultured myths and fables. I guess I'm trying to marginalize or compromise my views for the sake of not losing her. I really don't want to, however I just have to be assured that I'm not forced to reinforce something, that I don't genuinely believe, that's why I'm going to ask her to define "Christian household". Is/has anyone out there gone through what I'm going through? We're talking about this next week, and I'm desperately seeking any and all resources to see if I can salvage this situation? She asked me if I believed in God, and right now, I can't say that I fully don't believe in A god even if one said nature, so I said yes. She asked me if I believed Jesus was the son of God, and I told her that that was an issue that I'm working with (trying my best not to say no) She's majoring in anthropology andeven taking minor studies in Africology, which both have considerable and strong qualms with the Christian theology. I alluded to that, and she didn't really say a lot. What's the best way to go about this? We've talked about marriage, kids, where we'd move, but never really this..I'd tried to talk about it in the past, however it never developed into anything (because I have a tendency to ramble, so she limits discussing long issues with me! :) )


I hope I get considerable feedback. I need them.

[HelenM]

There are some threads about relationships with Christians on SL&S - this post might be best off in SL&S too...

You may be interested to read:

Christian Girlfriend Problems (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50149)

My girlfriend has become fundified (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46944)

Broke Up With Xian Girlfriend (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49290)

Issues Regarding Marrying a Catholic (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48872)

There may be more too. Those are just some of the recent ones.

Helen

[Rhea]

Also read
Update to all Christian who used to be (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48088)
and
Strumming for Jesus (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36616) (when you have a LOOONG time!)

for stories about marriages going through this after the fact...

[brighid]

Soul Invictus,

Helen posted some very informative links, and although some are lengthy I would suggest taking the time to read through them carefully. I also believe the Strummin’ for Jesus thread is also an excellent one to read.

I will do my best to provide you with my personal experience and hopefully those experiences can assist you in some way to find a resolution that best fits your needs and desires.

I would like to start off by saying that I think it takes a lot of courage to begin questioning your faith and to be honest about your desires and needs for any future continuance of this, or any relationship. It also shows that you care for this woman, and respect your relationship with her very much because you are putting so much time, energy and reflective thought into these very important questions. I hope the research you do and the answers you find lead you to a positive end that best fulfills your needs as a human being.

I have told the story before about a relationship I had ending because my boyfriend became “born again” and began placing restrictive requirements on my future abilities within a “Christian” relationship (the submissive, obedient, must stay at home and take care of the children Biblical role of wife and mother, etc.) It was a very difficult choice to make, but there was no way on this Earth I could possibly compromise and be what he now wanted me to be in order that we have a future together. I cannot be dutifully submissive because my husband is supposed to be the “authority” over me. However, I don’t think I was as deeply emotionally invested as you seem to be with your GF. The choice was much easier to make because it required I be someone I knew I could never be, no matter how much I cared for, or loved him.

I am presently married to a man who is extremely liberal and much more of a Deist. We agree on what we want for our son as far as a religious education goes, and always have even if both our religious ideas have changed throughout our relationship. Those changes have primarily been in the same direction so the friction has not been created.

As to your situation: I would advise answering those questions for yourself – resolutely answering your questions about God, Christ and faith, but that will take more time. If you cannot honestly tell your GF the truth about your feelings then this might be a sign of communication problems that will like cause you as much difficulty as your religious differences could. It is essential that you have the confidence and respect needed to share the tough stuff in this, or any relationship. If your relationship cannot withstand this test (that can be overcome) then it is unlikely it will hold together under similarly difficult situations that WILL arise during the course of a marriage.

I also think that you must have her define what she truly thinks she needs from a husband, what parenting will involve, etc. You are asking the right questions! IMHO the best course of action is to be honest with her about your feelings, positive and negative. If she cannot handle, or accept those feelings and misgivings it will be the answer you need, but not the one you want. Do not water yourself down, or be untrue to yourself in order to hold onto a relationship. In the end it will lead to the same result, but most likely a more painful and avoidable end. Allow her to make the decisions that are best for her by honestly educating her about your thoughts. Do not deceive her into believing you are something you are not, or at least you really aren’t sure you are right now.

It is possible for people of religious differences to have a successful marriage and parenting experiences. Helen M has a lot of experience in that area and could be a good resource for you. However, I would say that she and her husband are the exception rather then the rule. Vicar Phillip, brett c, blondegoddess and so many others have told their stories in the threads mentioned and maybe those stories will help you as well.

I spent many years single because I was unwilling to compromise my needs in a relationship. It wasn’t always pleasant, and at times it was rather lonely. Through it all I maintained my self-respect and eventually I attracted and managed to marry a man who loved me because of all that. I have tried to compromise my identity and be what a partner wanted me to be because I was afraid he wouldn’t like me if I was fully ME. Well … that was never successful and I ended up with more heartache because of it.

Love is not enough to sustain a marriage. It requires a lot of hard work, some compromise (but not of who you are) and it certainly helps to agree on the fundamental questions that will be a part of life as a married couple: how should you raise your children, what are your expectations of a husband/wife, what are your sexual needs, etc., etc. Many more questions, and even the same will come up over the course of the marriage and your needs, and that of your spouse will evolve. But if you cannot communicate those needs then you are doomed from the outset, unless those communication problems can be repaired. It’s best to have them in decent working order before saying, “I do.”

Brighid

[Godless Dave]

I was dating a liberal, non-church-going woman for a while. We discussed raising kids a couple times and it would not have worked. In fact that has a lot to do with why we broke up. She wants to take her kids to Sunday school and church because she thinks it's a good way to learn a moral code. Even when I pointed out it isn't necessary to go to church to learn morals she didn't relent. I asked her what she would do if one of her kids thought about it and said he or she didn't believe in God. She said "I'd be sad." Big red flag. I said if my kids were taken to church they had to be allowed to stop going if they had a good reason (besides wanting to sleep in). I thought that was a reasonable compromise but she had a problem with it.

Another time I asked her if she thought Jesus really was the son of God and had performed miracles and come back from the dead. She said she didn't know about his divinity, but believed in the miracles because "stuff like that happens all the time". :rolleyes:

[BioBeing]

Let me start with my standard disclaimer: do not take relationship advice from people on the internet who do not know you or your situation. That said...

I am an atheist and married to a "weak" Christian. Our five year anniversay is tomorrow. We both knew each others position before we got married. She wanted to take the kids to Church and they go to a Christian mothers day out (at the same church). When they go to Church, Daddy stays home to do his chores. For the most part, I am comfortable with that (except that I actually have to do the chores), and have not directly questioned God in front of the kids. However, I will, as soon as they ask me (the oldest is 3 now). And my wife knows this. I have no problems celebrating Christmas, giving candy at Easter etc. As far as I am concerned, this is purely "tradition". I try to look at is as exposing them to as many cultures as I can. How will things turn out in a few years, when I tell my kids that neither Santa nor God exist? We'll see. (Personally, I think they'll be more upset about the former!) But, and my point here, is my wife knows all this. If my kids ask to not go to Church, then I will make sure they get to stay home (and help with cutting the grass). If they want to go to church, I will take them myself (but not go in. Yuch!).

So talk. Be honest. [And if your g/f imposes too many time limits, take this as a sign that she is not into open communication. That was to me, the most worrying part of your post. In a relationship, you have to be willing to talk about anything, for however long it takes.]

[Bree]

Off to SL&S...

[scarmig]

My advice is this.

Sit down next week and honestly tell her your feelings. Then ask that she honestly tell you hers.

Sit and have as much discussion as is necessary. Decide early on what each of your breaking points are. You may decide that your line in the sand is that you don't ever want to be forced to go to church. She may decide that her line in the sand is that your children will *always* go to church.

You are already on the right path in that you have decided to sit down and talk about it. It is the right thing to do.

Oh yeah, and don't forget the most important thing. Be honest with yourself. If you think you may not be able to stomach children raised as fundamentalists, admit it to yourself now, and share it with her. Be honest with yourself.

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

You haven't told us what kind of a Christian she is, so advice is really hard to give. But here goes anyway...

1. Find out exactly what she believes.
2. Find out what she wants out of your relationship.
3. Figure out what you believe, and the sooner the better.
4. Figure out what you want out of your relationship.
5. Have an honest discussion about all of these things with her.

Don't marginalize your views to stay with her, because an honest relationship just can't work like that. You have to be honest.

-B

[callmejay]

"It's better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you aren't." I don't know if that's true or not, but it rings true to me.

[BadBadBad]

I came to these boards wanting the same advice you're seeking now, but 10 years and four kids down the road from where you are. I agree with BBT, what does she believe? I'd also ask, what does she want you to believe, what kind of lifestyle does she want you to live, how important is that to her, and how much of that can you live with? How do you think these will change over time? For example, if you have kids, her expectations and their importance will probably be a bigger issue.

I can say that it won't be good to hide your feelings on this to avoid affecting the relationship. You'll get away with it for a while, but the truth will come out, and you'll just have more to lose when it comes to the effects.

Tell us more about how "saved" (ie gonner) she is, and we can look down the road together at some scenarios that may come up.

[Talulah]

When I think about someone who wants a 'Christian household' I think of things like 'family bible study' and 'the family that prays together stays together.' I grew up in a so-called 'Christian household' and it was church 3 times a week and holding hands/prayers before every meal, etc.

I think you need to be aware that there is a difference in those Christians who just 'believe' and those who actively pursue a 'Christian household.' That means to me, that everything in your lives will be weighed on whether or not it is Christian. Your television, your reading material, every decision will be 'brought before the Lord.' Be careful, because you might just find yourself alone as the sole unChristian part of the life.

[BadBadBad]

Talulah,

That just makes my skin crawl. I'm still squiming in my chair. That's what christian household means to me too, and if that's what she wants, somebody is going to be pretty disappointed!

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by brettc
I came to these boards wanting the same advice you're seeking now, but 10 years and four kids down the road from where you are. I agree with BBT, what does she believe? I'd also ask, what does she want you to believe, what kind of lifestyle does she want you to live, how important is that to her, and how much of that can you live with? How do you think these will change over time? For example, if you have kids, her expectations and their importance will probably be a bigger issue.

I can say that it won't be good to hide your feelings on this to avoid affecting the relationship. You'll get away with it for a while, but the truth will come out, and you'll just have more to lose when it comes to the effects.

Tell us more about how "saved" (ie gonner) she is, and we can look down the road together at some scenarios that may come up.

I'll be sure to do that. She asked me if I believed in God, and I told her I couldn't commit to the atheist stance; I did tell her I was agnostic, so I'm skeptical on issues, and I use a critical approach when asking questions. She asked me did I believe Jesus was the son of God, and I said I didn't really think so.

Although she professes salvation, she doesn't go all that often and she lives out the house. Someone mentioned that things kick into gear with children on the scene. We've only really gone to church a handful of times thus far. She isn't known to proselytize (did I spell it right?) and she hasn't ever appeared a fundy. Again, she's an anthro major. We talk usual BF/GF talk... Anything in particular, so I can follow you better?

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
She asked me if I believed in God, and I told her I couldn't commit to the atheist stance; I did tell her I was agnostic, so I'm skeptical on issues, and I use a critical approach when asking questions. She asked me did I believe Jesus was the son of God, and I said I didn't really think so.

As a "saved" christian (you said salvation), she will interpret that to mean you aren't saved, which is the same to her as atheist, hellbound, heathen. Of course she wouldn't be so blunt and honest to either you or herself, but let's hold her to her religion. Your soft answers may lead her to have hope for your ever lasting soul! Is that what you want? Sounds very similar to my answers before I got married.

Although she professes salvation, she doesn't go all that often and she lives out the house. Someone mentioned that things kick into gear with children on the scene. We've only really gone to church a handful of times thus far. She isn't known to proselytize (did I spell it right?) and she hasn't ever appeared a fundy. Again, she's an anthro major. We talk usual BF/GF talk... Anything in particular, so I can follow you better?

Sounds like my wife when we got married. That church thing though. Sure is frustrating to go to church alone when you have such a nice boyfriend to be proud of. (That is until they find out he's not so interested in regular attendance, OH MY!). She didn't even belong to a church when I met her and she had a 9 year old son.

Marriage. You need a church for that don't you? Have you tried to get married without being a member of the church? They kind of have a thing about that. It kind of goes like "why do you want to get married in my church? Aren't you a member of a church already? Oh, you're not. I see. Well we'd love to have you join our lovely congregation. ARE YOU OF THE BODY?" Be careful. If you don't answer that like a True Christian, you're not getting married in that church! That's how it started for me.

We can go on from there to counselling from the minister before you can get married. Then there's that empty feeling when she sits home on those Sunday mornings. There's those probing questions about your religious beliefs instead of the normal pillow talk. Somewhere in there, she discovers your personality flaws that surely would be cured if you just opened up your heart to Jesus. Then there's kids and more pressure to go to church, and it goes on and on and on!!! How about when your beautiful child comes home saying Praise Jesus? How about those nice ways churches have of teaching kids about Hell and whose going there? "Daddy? are you going to that other place?"

I think you're getting the picture. The question is how far does she honestly want to go down that road? That's the road to "salvation." If she doesn't want to go all the way, good for you, but any True Christian will tell you, there's no short cuts to Heaven. The question is how far down that road are you willing to go?

[christ-on-a-stick]

brettc, I appreciate your telling-it-like-it-is.

It was a long time ago (relatively) but I will never forget the "Fundie wife, brainwashed kids" thread.

He knows of which he speaks. :(

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by brettc
As a "saved" christian (you said salvation), she will interpret that to mean you aren't saved, which is the same to her as atheist, hellbound, heathen. Of course she wouldn't be so blunt and honest to either you or herself, but let's hold her to her religion. Your soft answers may lead her to have hope for your ever lasting soul! Is that what you want? Sounds very similar to my answers before I got married.



Sounds like my wife when we got married. That church thing though. Sure is frustrating to go to church alone when you have such a nice boyfriend to be proud of. (That is until they find out he's not so interested in regular attendance, OH MY!). She didn't even belong to a church when I met her and she had a 9 year old son.

Marriage. You need a church for that don't you? Have you tried to get married without being a member of the church? They kind of have a thing about that. It kind of goes like "why do you want to get married in my church? Aren't you a member of a church already? Oh, you're not. I see. Well we'd love to have you join our lovely congregation. ARE YOU OF THE BODY?" Be careful. If you don't answer that like a True Christian, you're not getting married in that church! That's how it started for me.

We can go on from there to counselling from the minister before you can get married. Then there's that empty feeling when she sits home on those Sunday mornings. There's those probing questions about your religious beliefs instead of the normal pillow talk. Somewhere in there, she discovers your personality flaws that surely would be cured if you just opened up your heart to Jesus. Then there's kids and more pressure to go to church, and it goes on and on and on!!! How about when your beautiful child comes home saying Praise Jesus? How about those nice ways churches have of teaching kids about Hell and whose going there? "Daddy? are you going to that other place?"

I think you're getting the picture. The question is how far does she honestly want to go down that road? That's the road to "salvation." If she doesn't want to go all the way, good for you, but any True Christian will tell you, there's no short cuts to Heaven. The question is how far down that road are you willing to go?

Last night we semi-talked about our differences. Somehow it veered onto her wanting me to be more open about my feelings, and that of the two choices, not keeping me and keeping me, that she was keeping me and that made her happy. I talked about my desire to make "us" work. Nothing had changed from last Saturday to this week, she just knew views or concerns I had. ( I forgot to mention that since I told her I post on IIDB, she asked me my handle...so she could read what my posts have been! I told her, because whatever I write here, I should be able to say to her face or defend to her also) We also talked how we couldn't envision starting over with someone else and how we doubted we could fully love another and how we wanted our future family dreams to come true. Anyways, we were reconciling however I did something I very much didn't want to do. I told her how I was enjoying how promising the discussion was going (over 45 minutes) however there was two things that I wanted to communicate.One, that I love her and am prepared to address her concerns. Two (which was the dire part) that although I understood she made up in her mind to keep me, I hoped that it wasn't based on the fear of losing me. I told her that I also am operating out of fear of losing her, however I genuinely think that we can work things out, IF we ever get to the stage of seeing what's required of each other (we we haven't fully discussed yet. We're waiting til after her exams to do that issue for the most part) After I said that "operating out of fear part" she started bawling like crazy (which I was thinking was going to happen) I didn't want to do it, but felt it was necessary, for us and her not to delude ourselves. I let her know that to only choose me due to fear wasn't productive; if she could genuinely see us working it out, then that's fine. Did I miss anything? She seemed a little less stressed before I left; she asked me to tuck her in! :) Anyways, where do I go from here?

[BadBadBad]

There's no easy answers to this. If she's a christian, you're talking really about two issues. First, the easier, with respect to your eternal soul. It's quite a quandry for the christian actually. She worships a God that will, even in the best case, stand by with his omnipotence and let you suffer eternal torture in Hell. She'll endure the length of her relationship with you knowing she'll spend eternity in heaven knowing you're burning in Hell. Every prayer she says will be to the God that will stand by and let it happen. I get all teary eyed just thinking about it!

Second and more importantly, if you have kids, we have their ever lasting souls to worry about. The best case, for her, is that you stand by and say nothing while she indoctrinates them however she chooses with whatever beliefs she chooses. If you interferre, and force her to compromise, you're forcing her to compromise on her plan to ensure salvation for the kids. For most christians, I would think that's a pretty big no no!

This is quite interesting too. God has given the kids Free Will, and no one can take that God given gift away or change it in any way. It seems I should be able to indoctrinate my kids into satan worshipping with the most intense brainwashing ever conceived. God should still hold them entirely responsible for making a "Free Will" choice to choose and worship God. Of course on the other hand, we really need to get them to church just to make sure, and the younger the better!

No matter what you do, you're screwed on this one. If you read around in this forum, you can see plenty of examples of just how offensive going along with the program can be. You'll have to decide if and how much of that will work for you. From her side, she'll either have to play risky games with the kids salvation, or she'll have to play risky games re-defining the "christianity" she believes in. The christian's compromises on this one can lead to a very interesting discussion that I won't go into.

For some relationships, this whole conflict can lead to deconversion. For others like me and Vicar Phillip, it can lead to serious risk of divorce and at least a long standing hotly contested battle. Basically to me it means either compromising on your beliefs, which will definitely impact contentment within the relationship, or changing beliefs wants and desires with respect to religion. Given what's at stake, that's not easy to do.

Pascal's wager is based upon a false premise. Religion does have a cost, and you're already paying it. You're going to be paying that cost over and over. You'll pay, your girlfriend/wife will pay. Your kids will pay, so will your parents, extended family and close friends. There is one way to get around it though. She can open her eyes, educate herself, think for herself, and realize there is no God. Problem solved, and no compromise required.

[Viti]

Edited because I posted this before I read your latest. Sweetie...be really careful on how much you have to compromise here. There are several here who have "been there done that", listen up!



1. Really truly think about all the compromises you or she will have to make for this relationship to work. Love isn't enough to make a lifetime, and losing yourself or living a fake life is never a good thing. I am simply reinforcing Brighids usual excellent points.

2. Write down what you learned in this relationship so far, what can you do to improve the chances of it working better? What can she do? What must be done for both of you to be happy?

3. Concentrate on your other goals like school rather than marriage (which can wait). You have a lot of things on your plate...why is marriage even in the picture at this point? Slow it down, if she is the right one then she'll still be there after you finish school.

Vent here as much as you need to, we care.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Ummm, everyone's dancing around your "feelings" and all and I think that's just great. But let me ask you a straight out question: Can you respect someone who believes that Santa Clause factually exists?

I know we all go back and forth and dance around on many different topics here, but that's the crux of it in regard to relationships. Can you respect someone who actually, literally believes that Santa Clause factually exists (i.e., is not a fictional character)?

It seems ridiculous, I know. Of course Santa Clause doesn't exist. But, make no mistake, this is precisely what she believes, just under a different name.

So, given that, can you sit by and watch your future children being told that Santa Clause actually exists? Think about that. Not just for ritual or pageantry, but actually exists? Yes, Billy or Sally, there literally is a Santa Clause and I am not lying to you or ever would lie to you! Can you do that?

If you can, then no problem.

See, the main problem is that theist beliefs are the norm, so we most often say, "Think about this and if you can, then fine."

But, what's actually happening is your beloved is a brainwashed member of a cult. No, that isn't "harsh" or "over the top" or any other marginallization attempt; that's the truth.

So, it's not just, "Can I deal with this happening;" it's, "What should I do to stop this post haste."

Atheists on this board often temper their understanding with social understanding and say things that are extremely forgiving and tread very lightly, because we all were pretty much born again atheists (to coin a phrase) and therefore go to great lengths when discussing faith-based relationships; however, there is no escaping the fact that your lover's beliefs are, frankly, idiotic. To hold them is to relinquish all rational thought.

If you can accept that and that's ok with you, then fine. NO problem (from your end). If you cannot, then jestison your relationship quickly and with reckless abandon, because, it will only get worse.

If the two of you can't honestly agree upon what it is you see as 'truth' (whatever that may be), then neither of you can grow, IMHO.

She will always resent you for not being able to agree to her irrational demands, whether she voices them or not. Your relationship will, therefore, become one of convenient lies; lies that only affect esoteric thoughts that neither of you will communicate. If that's ok, then stay with her.

But, to those who allow their spouses to take your children to church, I would only ask you this: would you allow your children to go to Jonestown? Beside popular bullshit and no immediate calls for suicide, what is the difference and why do you allow it?

Do you think that Jonestown is an aberration? Something out of the norm? Something that doesn't happen in your "reformed" area churches?

It's a cult. And the people that administer the cult doctrine are intent upon one thing and one thing only; glorifying their cult, whether they are capable of acknowledging it or not.

Cults have no compunction in indoctrinating your children. None.

So why would allow it to happen? Your spouse has no compunction in fostering it, so why do you allow it? Fear of confrontation? Doesn't that provide enough evidence to prove that you shouldn't allow it?

Suffer the children unto me. If you can't see that this was exactly what Hitler said, then you suffer the same fate. Children are not to be indoctrinated into false beliefs. Period.

Notice, btw, that no theist would argue that what they indoctrinate is a false belief. They are wrong, of course. Dead wrong, so to allow your spouse to take your children and force their indoctrination is tantamount to absolute complicity in their indoctrination.

Children don't know what the fuck is going on. They will believe whatever it is that they are instructed to believe. You can't counter the church; that's why it's the Church and you're an infidel.

The only way to counter it and save your children (assuming that's a goal of yours) is to absolutely deny their indoctrination. Is it the harder road less travelled? Absolutely. Will it result in what you hope it results in? No, not immediately. But it will insure that your children do not perpetuate blindly what has been done in the past.

It's a question of morality. Do you lie to your children? Don't act like it's an abhorrant question, because if you've ever celebrated Christmas or Channukah or Quansit (or whatever), then you have lied to your children.

These things don't celebrate anything real, so if you give a shit about your children, you won't train them to respond to lies.

Teach your children well; this is precisely the same sentiment stolen by the NT mythmakers. Don't make the same mistake they do and teach your children acceptance of fraud.

Think of it this way. For two thousand years we've had christianity and it has resulted in nothing but heinous problems on many different levels. Don't let your children contribute to the problem.

If they ask, "Where do we come from," answer, "You know what, honey, nobody knows. Maybe you will."

That is the beginning of enlightenment and nothing else. Empower your children to think for themselves and stop anyone who tries to impose something other.

If you don't, then you are as guilty as guilty can be; you are guilty of complacency with the norm. The norm is to be combatted by the young and never accepted because they are told to accept it.

If your husband or wife is doing this and you allow it to happen, then you're part of the problem, plain and simple. Your spouse is not to be allowed to inflict that kind of lie on your own children and if your spouse can't recognize that due to their own indoctrination, then it is incumbant upon you to at least stop the indoctrination. Your spouse can believe whatever they want to believe; but they are not allowed to pass that belief on to your children anymore than a syphilitic is allowed to pass on syphilis.

Counter it directly and with arrogant force; the same way they inflict it. No theist would argue differently, if the reverse were true. Think about that. No theist would argue differently; they would just instigate indoctrination.

Why wouldn't you counter that, if indeed, you love your children?

My buck thirty five.

[VonEvilstein]

Koy, my hat comes off to you!

[brighid]

Soul Invictus,

I am not clear, but have you told her the full extent of your lack of belief? It is wrong to deceive her by sort of answering questions in a way you know won't shake things up to much, especially on this issue. She deserves you honesty. It will likely hurt and no doubt it may lead to an end you do not want to see, but it is necessary for your future happiness (and hers) even if the immediate future will be painful.

You both must accept eachother for who each of you are, truly and completely. It should be a "take it or leave it" situation. Marriage should be a lifetime committment, but having children IS and they deserve to be raised in a loving, stable home and not between two parents who fundamentally disagree about something so important.

As a mother I have a certain protective instinct (if you will) when it comes to my child. I think most mothers (and fathers) have this. If she believes her child's mortal soul is in danger this WILL trump any love she has for you. Her God will always supersede you, but once the children come this will be even more apparent.

The only compromise I can see that would likely work is both of you attended and raised the children in a Unitarian Universalist Church. Here your children would be exposed to all the world's major (and some minor) religions without undue emphasis placed on Christianity, but it is also a place most atheists/agnostics feel comfortable attending because you are accepted. This would be a compromise on both your parts, but one that didn't disrespect eithers belief/lack of belief system.

I could not be happy, and eventually I would begin to resent my husband, if I could not be myself ... if I had to hide or ignore a part of my essential being (and my lack of belief is integral) and I would be devastated if he indoctrinated OUR children into a belief system I strongly disagree with (even if I find components of that system to be congruent with my own moral codex.), one that essential taught that I would eternally damned while insisting I kept my thoughts secret. We are talking about a lifetime here and love is NOT enough, no matter what the fairytales and romances tell you. Love is important, but love alone cannot hold a shakey foundation together. If she loves you she couldn't disrespect you in such a way as to teach her children that you are eternally damned.

I can't even imagine such a thing and I could not, under any circumstances worship a God that would damn my beloved husband (and possibly my children) to hell for NOTHING more then a lack of belief. Especially because my husband is a good man, generous, kind, thoughtful, respectful, hardworking, charitable .... I would rather burn in hell (if we have souls) then spend an eternity in heaven without him (or my children.)

You have to tell her as soon as finals are over. You can't get around it unless you want to set yourself up for failure. Honesty is the only thing that will help the situation meet an honest end (or continuance.) If you love her, be COMPLETELY honest with her even if that means losing her.

Brighid

[HelenM]

Originally posted by brighid
The only compromise I can see that would likely work is both of you attended and raised the children in a Unitarian Universalist Church. Here your children would be exposed to all the world's major (and some minor) religions without undue emphasis placed on Christianity, but it is also a place most atheists/agnostics feel comfortable attending because you are accepted. This would be a compromise on both your parts, but one that didn't disrespect eithers belief/lack of belief system.

Just a comment...I can envisage a liberal Christian perhaps being willing to switch to a UU Church.

I don't think that a relatively conservative Christian would find that an acceptable compromise (barring a change in their own belief). To them a UU church is no more Christian than a Buddhist or Wiccan meeting (for example). They'd probably rather quit church altogether than attend a UU church.

As for respect, I've heard derogatory comments made by UU members about 'fundies' so I'm not convinced that a conservative Christian would feel the UU church respected their belief system, even if the spouse who wanted to go there did.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be confrontational but simply to share what I know through experience.

Helen

[Barcode]

Soul Invictus:

I guess I can only echo what the other participants have said. I'm not even sure why you should compromise on your beliefs. To me, a compromise is agreeing to be respectful of the others viewpoint and not pass comment on the things they do, no matter how crazy you think they are.

I don't know what Christian household means. To me, it's taking the kids to Church, Sunday school, praying, reading religious material, saying grace and adhering to the precepts laid down by the Church. Can you honestly do those things and not have resentment build?

I have a girlfriend who takes her Catholicism very seriously, and unfortunately, I've only discovered the extent of it recently as I'm spending two months here. I'm telling you, there are religious books everywhere, her insistence on going to Mass every Sunday and on " holy days ", prayer nights on Fridays, Sunday discussion talking about having God in the center of their lives ...

She's compromised the groups whilst I'm here, but I forsee things getting worse. So maybe it's not even the *belief* per se, but the actions that arise as a result.

At the moment, the gf and I have sort of reached crisis point and she decided to read my things to see where I'm coming from only to discover questions she says she hadn't thought of before and is now in the middle of a crisis because she can't explain some things how she would like.

It'd be nice if religion was a small thing which could be overlooked, but my girlfriends faith is probably as central to her identity as my atheism is ... and how I view the world. Same thing for most I imagine ...

Are you willing to nullify part of your identity to make someone happy? In the long term, this leads to more problems .... but heck, I'm feeling a little burned by this subject now ... Brighid said it all really ....