What is 'Scientology'?

[Luiseach]

Hello:

I've heard about 'Scientology.'

I have also been told that L. Ron Hubbard was the founder of the 'movement'? 'religion'? 'philosophy'?

What's it all about?

I would greatly appreciate people's input and ideas on the subject.

:)

[keyser_soze]

Originally posted by Luiseach
Hello:

I've heard about 'Scientology.'

I have also been told that L. Ron Hubbard was the founder of the 'movement'? 'religion'? 'philosophy'?

What's it all about?

I would greatly appreciate people's input and ideas on the subject.

:)

Scientology was L. Ron Hubbards attempt to meld all of the attractive aspects of the various religions into one faith. He started it in the 50's. He is currently dead(despite the advantages of living the proper life which was supposed to net him immortality). They are probably the flakiest, most cultic new religion out there today. Every time someone starts saying christianity is valid because "no other religion" got so big so fast...I call out scientology. Which is, btw, VERY powerful now. Not only was it started by a second rate author, he told everyone what he was doing while he was creating it. He basically got further "out there" with each decade, and if you can afford his program, at the upper levels(tom cruise, etc...) you get to find out that aliens are responsible for the human population...

Their history is fraught with abuse, intimidation, coercion, assault, blackmail, and murder. Avoid them at all costs.

[lpetrich]

For more, check Operation Clambake (http://www.xenu.net).

[echidna]

Here's another good rundown ...

http://www.lermanet.com/latimes/la90-1b.html Central to Scientology is a belief in an immortal soul, or "thetan," that passes from one body to the next through countless reincarnations spanning trillions of years. Collectively, thetans created the universe -- all the stars and planets, every plant and animal. To function within their creation, thetans built bodies for themselves of wildly varying appearances, the human form being just one.

But each thetan is vulnerable to painful experiences that can diminish its powers and create emotional and physical problems in the individual it inhabits. The goal of Scientology is to purge these experiences from the thetan, making it again omnipotent and returning spiritual and bodily health to its host.

The painful experiences are called "engrams." Hubbard said some happen by accident -- from ancient planetary wars, for example -- while others are intentionally inflicted by other thetans who have gone bad and want power. In Scientology, these engrams are called "implants."

According to Hubbard, the bad thetans through the eons have electronically implanted other thetans with information intended to confuse them and make them forget the powers they inherently possess -- kind of a brainwashing procedure.

While Hubbard was not always precise about the origins of the implants, he was very clear about the impact.

"Implants," Hubbard said, "result in all varieties of illness, apathy, degradation, neurosis and insanity and are the principal cause of these in man." And no discourse on Scientology would be complete without the Story of Xenu ... Seventy-five million years ago a tyrant named Xenu (pronounced Zee-new) ruled the Galactic Confederation, an alliance of 76 planets, including Earth, then called Teegeeack.

To control overpopulation and solidify his power, Xenu instructed his loyal officers to capture beings of all shapes and sizes from the various planets, freeze them in a compound of alcohol and glycol and fly them by the billions to Earth in planes resembling DC-8s. Some of the beings were captured after they were duped into showing up for a phony tax investigation.

The beings were deposited or chained near 10 volcanoes scattered around the planet. After hydrogen bombs were dropped on them, their thetans were captured by Xenu's forces and implanted with sexual perversion, religion and other notions to obscure their memory of what Xenu had done.

Soon after, a revolt erupted. Xenu was imprisoned in a wire cage within a mountain, where he remains today.

But the damage was done.

During the last 75 million years, these implanted thetans have affixed themselves by the thousands to people on Earth. Called "body thetans," they overwhelm the main thetan who resides within a person, causing confusion and internal conflict.

In the Operating Thetan III course, Scientologists are taught to scan their bodies for "pressure points," indicating the presence of these bad thetans. Using techniques prescribed by Hubbard, church members make telepathic contact with these thetans and remind them of Xenu's treachery. With that, Hubbard said, the thetans detach themselves.

[keyser_soze]

You know what is truly sad? The fact, that no matter how laughable the content....People still buy into this religion bs. I am dismayed to the extreme. You'd think they would get brighter over the centuries, but the existance of, and the following of...this particular religion leads me to believe that stupidity is a pathologically terminal disease affecting the mankind...and we may die of it.

[Spaz]

LMFAO!! :eek:

That story about Xenu can't possibly be part of their religion, the other stuff is ridiculous but people might believe it but that story is shit, hahahaha.

[lpetrich]

That Operation Clambake page discusses, among other things, L. Ron Hubbard's often-uncredited influences.

And one curiosity is likely a case of reinvention: the resemblance of Scientology to Gnosticism, an early-Xtian movement.

Complete with Xenu corresponding to Ialdabaoth/Yaldabaoth (a great villainous ruler), having to go through some initiation in order to learn the secrets of the sect, etc.

Scientology has even reinvented the concept of demonic possession -- possession by "body thetans".

[Philosoft]

Originally posted by keyser_soze
You know what is truly sad? The fact, that no matter how laughable the content....People still buy into this religion bs. I am dismayed to the extreme. You'd think they would get brighter over the centuries, but the existance of, and the following of...this particular religion leads me to believe that stupidity is a pathologically terminal disease affecting the mankind...and we may die of it.
Not to mention that, previous to his career as a religious icon, Elron was a science fiction writer. Hello? Anybody listening? Mr. Cruise, Mr. Travolta, you seem to have overlooked something.

[Deacon Doubtmonger]

This account is truly definitive:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/xenu/xenu.html

Also, check your local library system and used bookstores; see if you can get lucky and find one of the few copies of Paulette Cooper's *The Scandal of Scientology* the church wasn't able to suppress. They were so mad at this they started a harassment campaign called "Operation PC Freakout," which culminated in their faking bomb threats on her stationery.

Uncovered internal memos reveal that they're also inordinately fond of using lawsuits not to win redress of wrongs but to harass, intimidate and exhaust those they deem to be enemies ("suppressive persons" in their lingo).

Also see the following:

*L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman?* by Bent Corydon and L. Ron Hubbard, Jr.

*Bare-Faced Messiah: the True Story of L. Ron Hubbard* by Russell Miller

*A Piece of Blue Sky : Scientology, Dianetics, and L. Ron Hubbard Exposed* by Jon Atack

Deacon Doubtmonger

[Curtis]

That story about Xenu can't possibly be part of their religion, the other stuff is ridiculous but people might believe it but that story is shit, hahahaha.

Unfortunately, it really is part of their beliefs. It's taught to the people at the highest levels of their organization's "levels", probably because at that point people are so brainwashed, they'll believe anything.

[auto-da-fe]

My personal history with Scientology:

Several years ago I was living in a Chicago suburb. I started working at a company called US BELL. It was a long distance telephone company, and I managed their call center for them. As a manager, my direct senior was the Vice President of Operations, who was third in command. This meant I was privy to most meetings, even ones with the CEO, whom I often went to lunch with.

After several weeks of working their, I was introduced to the "Philosophy of the Company". Namely, Scientology. A little more detail about Scientology is that they also have a whole sect of their "religion" that focuses on business, and business philosophy. I was told by the CEO and the VPO about how they started the company based on Scientology principals, and have built it into the multi-million dollar company it was (which turned out to be a gross exageration). I was told that every tuesday they went to the Chicago School of Scientology to study, and that it was recommended that I go (anyone familiar with business knows that means I will never go anywhere if I don't go). I was told that I didn't have to buy into the precepts of the reilgion, but, in performing my duties (hiring, firing, everyday running of the call center, about 30 employees).

These people are fucked up!!!! Man, the first time I went, I was put into a room that was basically a very small theater. I was shown what can only be called marketing material, which was trying to convince me how great Scientology was, and how much money it was going to make me. They introduced L. Ron Hubbard, gave a history on him, and explained that the US Government recognized Scientology as a Religion, not a cult. They then did some sort of a personality test on me, and used their freaky little machines on me (I can't for the life of me remember what they are called, but I found out years later that they are basically static electricity detectors).

Everytime someone would walk into the room, they would look at this huge picture of Hubbard and say a little prayer to it. It was all very wierd, and you could tell that this was a cult that has gotten out of hand. I went to about 3 of these weekley meetings, then managed to find excuses for every one thereafter. I ended up quitting this job after about 6 months, because this religion took over their entire lives. We couldn't go out to a bar without my boss being an asshole about how all the people in the bar weren't as good as him because they weren't Scientologists (once he said "us" meaning he and I, and I quickly had to remind him I was not a Scientologist, and didn't buy into his crap, which made my work life very uncomfortable after that).

[JerryM]

I bought a copy of "Dianetics" several years ago, just to familiarize myself with Hubbard's thinking. Three times I tried to read it and never made it past 4 pages. Confusing, idiosyncratic terminology, and tedious, difficult writing. Totally unreadable.

[HaysooChreesto!]

Originally posted by JerryM
I bought a copy of "Dianetics" several years ago, just to familiarize myself with Hubbard's thinking. Three times I tried to read it and never made it past 4 pages. Confusing, idiosyncratic terminology, and tedious, difficult writing. Totally unreadable.

I also bought that book to see what the whole hoopla was about and my experience was nearly identical to yours. The only difference was that I endured to about page 20 before regarding the book as emergency bath tissue only.
And that's what's so weird to me. Dianetics is so bad, so unreadable, and just so plain stupid that it's amazing that Scientology ever got off the ground in the first place.
I can't oversate just how truly dumb that book is.

And these people who believe in it? That's the other thing, everyone who considers themselves a Scientologist can't be raving morons. Strange.

[Deacon Doubtmonger]

Originally posted by MegaDave
A little more detail about Scientology is that they also have a whole sect of their "religion" that focuses on business, and business philosophy.

I also worked in a Scientology-run business once, and have to ask: Were employees required to read and understand (as I was) a bit of drivel and dreckery called "ARC (Affinity, Reality, Communication)" before being allowed to take on even the lowest-level jobs?

They then ... used their freaky little machines on me (I can't for the life of me remember what they are called, but I found out years later that they are basically static electricity detectors).

You're speaking of the Hubbard E-Meter (short for "electropsychometer." It's meant to measure galvanic skin response. Though the Scientologists claim it's supposed to be helpful in revealing the level and sources of psychological harm for "treatment" reasons, in reality they use it as a crude lie detector when asking deeply personal questions; this permits the "auditor" to compile information which can later be used against the "preclear." Here's how it's introduced to prospective converts:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/xenu/xenu-02.html

Deacon Doubtmonger

[fando]

The writer Harlan Ellison was there when Hubble proclaimed that he would create his own religion. Here's his account of that event and the craziness that followed:

http://www.amazing.com/scientology/harlan-ellison.html

Ellison: Scientology is bullshit! Man, I was there the night L. Ron Hubbard invented it, for Christ Sakes!

[GrandDesigner]

He basically got further "out there" with each decade, and if you can afford his program, at the upper levels(tom cruise, etc...) you get to find out that aliens are responsible for the human population...

I had heard that there is some sort of structure system where those 'at the top' have some priviledges others dont. I dont know about this for sure but heard it while just discussing this Scientology thing. From what I heard, it sounded like those at the top could go to certain spa's or retreats, or something to that extent, due to their prominense. Whatever the case, from the discussion, like this thread, it just seems like an odd setup.

Grand Ol Designer

p.s. that story of Xenu sounds like a bad movie.

[braces_for_impact]

Around this time he was invited to address a science fiction group in Newark hosted by the writer, Sam Moskowitz. `Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous,' he told the meeting. `If a man really wanted to make a million dollars, the best way to do it would be start his own religion.'
-- "Bare Faced Messiah" p.148. Reference given to LA Times, 27 Aug 78.

That about sums it up for me.

[Deacon Doubtmonger]

Originally posted by GrandDesigner
I had heard that there is some sort of structure system where those 'at the top' have some privileges others don't. I don't know about this for sure but heard it while just discussing this Scientology thing. From what I heard, it sounded like those at the top could go to certain spas or retreats, or something to that extent, due to their prominence.

You might be thinking of their attempt to "take over" the town of Clearwater, Florida when their Sea Org was forced to become land-based; an account of this, including purchase of the Ft. Harrison Hotel for use by their elite, is given here:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-13.html

Deacon Doubtmonger

[Arken]

You're all misspelling $cientology. Why is that? ;)

[Spaz]

What the hell is wrong with these people? I mean really, how stupid do you have to be? The guy just made the religion, the story is a piece of shit (you'd think he could do better). What makes people fall for this crap?

[lpetrich]

But is Scientology really that much more absurd than most "reputable" religions?

[Deacon Doubtmonger]

Before I provide links addressing two questions that just appeared here, I should clarify that they and the ones I've cited so far on this thread come from two different accounts by the same author.

Margery Wakefield spent 12 years in Scientology before finally managing to escape, and it took her another 12 years to achieve any sort of deep and meaningful recovery from the damage they did to her. "Understanding Scientology" is her more "straight descriptive" account; its opening page is here:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us.html

While this is harrowing enough, "The Road to Xenu" is even more so: it's more of a narrative of how she experienced life in the cult personally. It opens here:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/xenu/xenu.html

For those not wanting to read the entire accounts, I've linked to key chapters below. Now to the questions:

Originally posted by Spaz

What the hell is wrong with these people? I mean really, how stupid do you have to be?... What makes people fall for this crap?

And by lpetrich

But is Scientology really that much more absurd than most "reputable" religions?

The general level of absurdity may be the same, but Scientology's system for delivering it is ruthlessly sophisticated, and far more suited to modern times than the practices of "reputable" religions. Indeed, having been created by a former sci-fi writer, Scientology bears a certain scientific-appearing credibility that can easily appeal to those disenchanted with old-line churches. And cults are well known for seeking out the lonely and vulnerable, especially young people confused and saddened with the burdens of life, and wishing there was one unified system of thought/belief that could provide all the answers to all one's questions and banish all one's doubts and uncertainties. Given all this, even though I pride myself on being reasonably intelligent, I nonetheless almost became a Scientologist myself.

Specific examples:

(1) Here's how the prospective new member is introduced via the "Communication Course"; this is followed by "training routines" meant to numb and crush one's critical faculties.

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-04.html

The "training routines" are described in more frightening detail in the author's personal narrative:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/xenu/xenu-04.html

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/xenu/xenu-05.html

(2) Of course, it's not enough for a cult or religion to indoctrinate followers in; it must also keep them from backsliding out. The second of the above "training routine" chapters introduces Scientology's system of "Ethics," which has nothing to do with reasoned contemplation of right and wrong and everything to do with harsh and menacing discipline. More details here (including the use of the E-meter in "security checks" to gather personal info for future blackmail use):

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-11.html

(3) The deliberate misdefinition of "Ethics" is but the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the church's use of jargon to confuse, indoctrinate and intimidate, about which more here:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-08.html

It should be noted that anytime someone questions or doubts an aspect of church doctrine, they are commanded to "LOOK UP YOUR M/U!" (misunderstood word).

(4) Finally, here's Wakefield's summary of the church's entire mind-control process:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-14.html

Deacon Doubtmonger

"Don't wait too long to make up your mind, Doctor. By then it may not be yours to make up."

--from "The Subliminal Man" by J.G. Ballard

[fando]

Originally posted by lpetrich
But is Scientology really that much more absurd than most "reputable" religions?

Not necessarily more absurd, but much more dangerous for the lay members and society at large. While most organized religions I know of have some sort of pyramid scheme to draw funds from their members, no other religion does it with more thoroughness, efficiency and heartlessness than the church of Scientology. They literally drain the coffers of all who enter and bond them into a lifetime of financial slavery. I have been witness to their persuasion methods, having toured some of their 'centers' as a pretend prospective convert (just for kicks). They try to pressure you into buying their gateway drug: Dianetics. If you resist, they persist until you basically have to leave. That's just how they treat outsiders. Insiders are treated much worse according to sites posted already, especially Clambake.org (http://clambake.org).

[TomboyMom]

I may have to stop saying that Mormonism is the weirdest con job passing for a religion--sounds like Scientology has it beat.

[Spaz]

I realize that the other religions are absurd as well, but they're old as crap. I find it a little less amazing that someone will fall for something that was created 1 or 2 thousand years ago. Mormonism of course is another one that I can't get, seeing as the source of that is easily verified too, but c'mon, this religion was just made by a sci-fi writer 50 years ago, how can you possibly fall for that?

[Jinto]

I'm going to guess that part of the attraction of scientology is precisely that it WAS made up just 50 years ago, and as such has a nice argumentum ad novitatem going for it. And of course, once you start going through their mind-control program, it's very difficult to leave.

[Spaz]

People need to be better educated about the techniques of organizations like this so that they can't be taken advantage of. The problem with that, of course, is that they might just start applying that education to other major religions, and we can't have that...

[Deacon Doubtmonger]

Originally posted by Spaz
... c'mon, this religion was just made by a sci-fi writer 50 years ago, how can you possibly fall for that?

And by Jinto
I'm going to guess that part of the attraction of scientology is precisely that it WAS made up just 50 years ago, and as such has a nice argumentum ad novitatem going for it.

It appears Hubbard only made it a "religion" to take advantage of tax-exemption laws; indeed, most of its books I've seen have a disclaimer calling it no more than an "applied religious philosophy." Wakefield's account of its transition and one of the "ceremonies" thereafter is illuminating:

===quoted===

Sometime in the early 1970's, Scientology became a Church.

"A church?" I asked a friend who worked in the Guardian's Office, the notorious private CIA-like branch of Scientology. "Why?"

"It's just a tax matter," he reassured me. "It won't really change the way anything works. It's just a way to deal with the suppressive government." I was satisfied with the explanation. It was consistent with a policy from "Ron" which came out soon afterward in which he said, "Scientology 1970 is being planned on a religious organization basis throughout the world. "This will not upset in any way the usual activities of any organization. It is entirely a matter for accountants and solicitors." ...

I had seen Antonio perform the Scientology christening ceremony many times at the center. It was very informal. Hubbard gave a sample of a christening ceremony at one of his early congresses. It went something like this:

[Hubbard] "O.K. The parents of the child will bring him front and center."

[To the audience] "This is John and Anne Smith. And James and Suzy Baker have decided to become
godparents."

[To the child] "Here we go. How are you? All right. Now your name is Zachary Smith. You got that? Good. There you are. Did that upset you? Now do you realize that you're a member of the HASI [Hubbard Association of Scientologists International]? Pretty good, huh?

"All right. Now I want to introduce you to your father. This is Mr. Smith. And here's your mother.

"And now, in case you get into trouble and want to borrow some quarters, here's Mr. Baker. See him? He's your godfather. Now, take a look at him. That's right. And here's Suzy Baker in case you want a real good auditor. Got it?

"Now you are suitably christened. Don't worry about it, it could be worse. OK. Thank you very much. They'll treat you all right."

End of christening....

Whatever convictions I had previously held about religion were quickly overturned in Scientology. In his tapes and bulletins, Hubbard took frequent digs at Christianity.... Much later, on one of the advanced courses, I learned the "truth" about Jesus Christ. Hubbard was talking about implants:

"Somebody on this planet," Hubbard wrote,

"about 600 B.C. found some pieces of "R6" [an implant].

"I don't know how they found it; either by watching madmen or something. But since that time they have used it. And it became what is known as Christianity.

"The man on the cross. There was no Christ!

"The Roman Catholic Church, through watching the dramatizations of people picked up some little fragments of R6." ...

And in another bulletin, Hubbard announces that he has been to Heaven three times. Heaven, of course, is just another implant:

"For a long while, some people have been cross with me for my lack of cooperation in believing in a Christian Heaven, God and Christ. I have never said I didn't disbelieve in a Big Thetan, but there was something very corny about Heaven et al. Now I have to apologize. There was a Heaven. Not too unlike, in cruel betrayal, the heaven of the Assassins in the 12th Century who, like everyone else, dramatized the whole track implants....

"Yes, I've been to Heaven. And so have you. And you have the pattern of its implants in the HCO Bulletin Line Plots [Hubbard's diagrams of implants]. It was complete with gates, angels and plaster saints -- and electronic implantation equipment. So there was a Heaven after all, which is why you are on this planet and were condemned never to be free again until Scientology."

The only difference that I noticed in the center after we became a religion was that someone tacked up a small sign over the back room in the center that read: "CHAPEL." On Sunday evenings, one of the staff members who was designated the center Chaplain would hold a short service in the chapel. The sermon usually centered on some aspect of Scientology that was helpful to mankind.

===end quoted===

Deacon Doubtmonger

[Jinto]

Originally posted by Deacon Doubtmonger
<snip>

There are people who think that makes sense? What is this world coming to?:eek:

[RevDahlia]

Keep in mind that the "church" doesn't break out all the crackhead space opera stuff until its members are thoroughly brainwashed and considerably lighter of wallet. At that point, they'll cling to anything to justify what they've been put through.

I've known several people who disappeared into Scamentology. It is really dangerous, despite the goofy cosmology.

[Rational BAC]

I had to do a service call on an air conditioner in their headquarters in the Fort Harrison hotel in Clearwater many many years ago (20 at least)

One of the strangest experiences I ever had doing service work.

Took forever to even find the AC I was supposed to service. No one seemed to know anything at all about anything at all----even how to get from one floor to another. Some of them seemed to know nothing beyond the room they were in. All had vacant zombie-like stares. No one could answer any of my questions.

All I kept hearing was "You are not supposed to be here".

When I asked "where am I supposed to be?--- I have an AC to fix"------there was always this puzzled look and a blank stare.

One guy I tried to get some info from had the reddest eyes I have ever seen in my life. Not sure from what---looked like he had either been crying for days or been without sleep for days.

Wandered around the hotel for what seemed like forever trying to get any info on the service work I was supposed to do and finally happened to run into a maintenance room with a maintenance man and there was the broken AC.

Fixed it as fast as I could and got out of there as fast as I could.

Honestly-----those Scientology people did not act in the least bit human.

If you all think Christianity is bad----there are worse things.

[Rational BAC]

Just printed out a lot of the text of that expose of Scientology. I live in the Clearwater area and there are very many scientologists here.------with their "e-meters" at flea markets and fairs etc. trying to entice newcomers.

(I used to do appliance service work and as far as I can tell an e-meter is just a fancy name for a very sensitive ohm meter. ---- Take any good old Simpson multi-meter and set it to the highest scale and you can read resistance through your body from one hand to another)--and the needle on the Simpson will do very strange things when you do that and it does waver a lot. I am sure that Hubbard was very familiar with ohmeters and multimeters since I understand he used to do radio and TV repair.

--I tried to explain this to a scientologist who did an e-meter test on me at one of our local fairs--and he got totally confused and couldn't wait to get rid of me.

Reason I printed so much out was because my girlfriend has shown an interest in scientology in the past. Want her to read it and hopefully nip this in the bud---so she doesn't even consider even starting anything with them. I don't think one individual has any chance at at all against the monolith that is scientology. Best to just never get started in it.

[Rational BAC]

Just printed out a lot of the text of that expose of Scientology. I live in the Clearwater area and there are very many scientologists here.------with their "e-meters" at flea markets and fairs etc. trying to entice newcomers.

(I used to do appliance service work and as far as I can tell an e-meter is just a fancy name for a very sensitive ohm meter. ---- Take any good old Simpson multi-meter and set it to the highest scale and you can read resistance through your body from one hand to another)--and the needle on the Simpson will do very strange things when you do that and it does waver a lot. I am sure that Hubbard was very familiar with ohmeters and multimeters since I understand he used to do radio and TV repair.

--I tried to explain this to a scientologist who did an e-meter test on me at one of our local fairs--and he got totally confused and couldn't wait to get rid of me.

Reason I printed so much out was because my girlfriend has shown an interest in scientology in the past. Want her to read it and hopefully nip this in the bud---so she doesn't even consider even starting anything with them. I don't think one individual has any chance at at all against the monolith that is scientology. Best to just never get started in it.

[Rational BAC]

Whoops!!!

Sorry for the duplicate.

As long as I am back again--- even for such a stupid reason, I would like to say that this is a great forum for all kinds of info. I appreciate what you guys (and girls) ---(probably should say men and women )---do so very much.

And I am a theist. But thanks anyway.

[echidna]

Does anyone have a list of their "front" organisations ?

I know the Pancake Parlour for instance is owned and operated largely by Scientologists. The only scientologist I'v ever known personally waitressed there many years back.

[Rational BAC]

On that subject---

The only scientologist I have ever known personally was really a heck of a nice guy. Met him at a flea market where both of us were trying to sell our "stuff" and did not do well (actually neither of us sold anything at all that day ==$10 down the crapper for the table rental.)

But he did have mental problems. And he liked to smoke pot (I mean every day). Heck of a nice guy actually, in spite of it all. ---even though he was broke as a churchmouse --just like I was at the time.

But he was a scientologist. A broke and almost homeless scientologist --but a scientologist nevertheless.

And that part puzzles me still. Supposedly Scientology is only interested in getting big bucks from their members. This guy had no bucks to give at all.

Maybe he was just tolerated by them as the lowest level "gopher" scientologist. Someone to try and bring in the lowest common denominator of society (which I freely admit, I was at the time).

And he did try to convert me. ---------But my very strange experience of so many years before in the Fort Harrison Hotel, trying to find that AC to fix -----made me a lifelong "uncandidate" for Scientology.

[Rational BAC]

Am on a bit of a roll here, and a bit of a monologue----but what the hell.

Another thing that puzzles me about the scientologists---remember that I am in an area where I actually have to live with the little basstards).

There is Tom Cruise and there is Elvis's daughter and there is (forget his name right now------but he was in "Grease" and a very famous actor) -----and probably a bunch of other very high profile and very successful people who are scientologists.

I AM ALMOST SURE that these very successful and intelligent and talented and very rich people did not go through those idiotic "training programs" that scientologists supposedly go through to get "clear" and higher.

What do you all think?? Were these "elite" people just given a pass by Scientology and let in with little or no effort ??????(besides possibly money---but they are all very rich--so that would make almost no difference to them)---------just for propoganda purposes.

That is what I think.

[RevDahlia]

RatBac--

The "church" attracts celebrities exclusively to keep its profile high and to lend the organization credibility in the eyes of the public. Hubbard himself wrote many tracts on recruiting celebrities; it's one of the organization's most important missions. I believe that Clambake (http://xenu.net/) carries some of LRH's writings on the issue.

Celebrities may be attracted to Scientology for a number of reasons. A lot of actors aren't terribly well-educated, so they're more easily suckered by the quasi-scientific jargon and lofty promises Scientology deals in. A lot of famous people are pretty poorly-adjusted (who isn't) and the "love-bombing" they recieve at the hands of the Scienos may make them feel more secure. The literature says that the auditing and courses will lead to greater professional success, something in which celebrities are very interested. Also, the "church" pampers and coddles its celebrity members -- they keep fancy condos all over the world for Tom Cruise, for instance. They bought a beautiful old hotel on Franklin Avenue in Hollywood and actually named it "the Celebrity Center". I'd guess that the celebrities haven't done the usual courses, but they are certainly audited. (Auditing is when they hook the mark up to the e-meter and grill him/her about his/her past.) Full disclosure is emphasized... auditing sessions are recorded and archived by the church... and if a celeb ever wanted to get out, holy blackmail, Batman!

As for the un-wealthy members, they are the drones of the organization. They take the courses and then must work off the cost -- can take years, as they aren't paid much at all. The dazed types you encountered on the job were doubtless these. They enable the "church" to turn a spectacular profit, as they are basically slave labor. And your friend may have been poor, or more poor, because of Scientology. Your gopher hypothesis is also a good one.

These people make me very very angry.

[lpetrich]

That "Grease" actor is John Travolta.

[fando]

If you pick up the movie Bowfinger with Steve Martin and Eddie Murphy, you'll see a satire of Scientology and how they treat celebs. There are celebs out there who are very aware of what Scientology is up to and spare no expense to make fun of them.

I've been to the celebrity center in Hollywood several times, mostly to tour and watch their Orientation flick. The purpose of some rooms freak me out, like the clinic they have downstairs. They caught on to my act and I don't think I'll be getting near that place anytime soon. :D

[fried beef sandwich]

If you happen to have the May 06, 1991 issue of Time Magazine, the cover story is about scientology and basically how utterly repressive and cult-ish and powerful it is. Frightening stuff. To be honest, I'd rather have the Mormons after me than the Scientologists.

[Rational BAC]

Originally posted by lpetrich
That "Grease" actor is John Travolta.


Yep----I really did know that--I get these senior moments sometimes.

And Presley's daughter----Lisa Marie?

[markfiend]

A couple of things about Scientology:

Two of the highest-profile celebrity scientologists are Tom Cruise and John Travolta. Both these have frequently battled rumours about their sexuality. Scientology claims to be able to "cure" homosexuality. Go figure.

Also, am I correct in thinking that the Heaven's Gate cult (who committed mass suicide back when comet Hale-Bopp was around) was a scientology off-shoot?

[Vylo]

After reading about these guys I think I want to go hug a christian evangelist, and encourage him, just on the off chance that if his faith fails, he might become a scientologist.

[lpetrich]

Originally posted by markfiend
Also, am I correct in thinking that the Heaven's Gate cult (who committed mass suicide back when comet Hale-Bopp was around) was a scientology off-shoot? That cult had no connection from Scientology, as far as I know.

[bocajeff]

The only connection between Scientology and Heaven's Gate is that they are both sorta kinda UFO cults. Other than that, they are completely unrelated.

[Deacon Doubtmonger]

Originally posted by echidna
Does anyone have a list of their "front" organisations ?

http://www.lermanet.com/cos/frontgroups.html

[mark9950]

I bought a copy of "Dianetics" several years ago, just to familiarize myself with Hubbard's thinking. Three times I tried to read it and never made it past 4 pages. Confusing, idiosyncratic terminology, and tedious, difficult writing. Totally unreadable.

It is just as poorly written as the bible maybe even worse.

[catalyst]

I actually met one a few months after I moved to Florida, and he worked in our accounting department. One day, over lunch, as he had somehow discovered I was not christian, he began sounding me out wrt my views on religion, etc. After hearing him talk for a while about scientology, I told him that I thought reincarnation was the ulitmate refuge for idiots who could not get things right the first time. He left me alone after that.

[Barney Gumble]

Originally posted by Spaz
I realize that the other religions are absurd as well, but they're old as crap. I find it a little less amazing that someone will fall for something that was created 1 or 2 thousand years ago. Mormonism of course is another one that I can't get, seeing as the source of that is easily verified too, but c'mon, this religion was just made by a sci-fi writer 50 years ago, how can you possibly fall for that?
Because most that wander into a Scientology org aren't even aware of who Hubbard truly was.

What hasn't been mentioned here is that Scientology has an incredible phalanx of lawyers that they will unleash with seemingly reckless abandon. They're extremely well funded and absolutely vicious to anyone who "speaks out" about the church or its practices, most critics simply can't afford the legal costs of dealing with Scientology. This is a large part of why Scientology continues to exist - critics are simply buried in the legal system. Remember folks that this is the Infidels where skepticism is largely seen as a virtue. As we all should know by now, the public at large may not always share that view - if they haven't seen something on Dateline NBC just last week, then there might as well be a paucity of evidence against it. For many people, their last exposure to Scientology might as well have been Oprah fellating Cruise or Travolta while they spout Scieno propaganda, and lovely, kind benevolent Oprah will of course never challenge them on it lest they don't grace her stage with their handsome visage.

It cost Time magazine over 7 million (http://www.cnn.com/US/9607/17/scientology/) in legal fees to defend its Scientology story.

Another link to Scientology and its use of the legal system. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_the_Legal_System)


Lawyers who have become involved in legal action regarding Scientology have been quoted as saying, "There is nothing on Earth quite like a Scientology court case."

Edit: GAH!. This was linked from a current Scientology thread and I didn't even look at the last post date! Sorry.

[Invittica]

Have you people been to the official Scientology website, its pretty damn funny, i took a toxin test to work out how toxic my body is, (whatever the hell that means) offered on the website, (fake name and email address of course) there was ten questions, first off i answered with 9 no's and 1 yes, it then recommends that i take there purification program, so i go back and answer with 10 yes'es, it again recommends that i take part in there purification program, so i go back again and answer with ten no's it again answers that i should take there purification program,:D like i said pretty damn funny.(in the sense that if i didn't laugh then id cry).

[Matrioshka_Brain]

Can anyone confirm wether or not L. Ron. Hubbard made Scientology on a bet?

[Vicar Philip]

WOW!! I thought Mormons had moronic beliefs!! I can't believe people actually flock to this bullshit and embrace it, seemingly. I'm flabbergasted. I started reading the links provided by Deacon Doubtmonger earlier today at work, and found myself hooked. The story of Marjery, sort of a composite of several people's experiences with scientology, for me was riveting and more than a little depressing.

I keep thinking of Jim Jones and his magic Kool-Aid down in Guyana. Can these people not make the connection? I'm also convinced these celebrities (Cruise, Travolta, etc.) aren't subjected to the same treatment the drones are. They're simply good advertising as poster children for Hubbard's insane soap opera. Damn, and I thought Christianity was bad.

Once again, damned glad I'm an atheist. The only reasonable position.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Invittica
Have you people been to the official Scientology website, its pretty damn funny, i took a toxin test to work out how toxic my body is, (whatever the hell that means)

Why it is the modern equivalent of sin of course. No religion can sucker you in unless they can convince you that there is something wrong with you and they got the cure.

Starboy

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Matrioshka_Brain
Can anyone confirm wether or not L. Ron. Hubbard made Scientology on a bet?

I can't confirm it but I want to say that I read it long ago when I used to read out sifi collections.

Starboy

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Vicar Philip
WOW!! I thought Mormons had moronic beliefs!! I can't believe people actually flock to this bullshit and embrace it, seemingly. I'm flabbergasted.

It's no stupider than the 'classic' religions just more novel and up to date.

Starboy

[Invittica]

Yeah Starboy i agree with you there.

I think we should be grateful that all these crazy religions exist though. Think of all the benefits sound-minded athiests can gain from them. When your down, go too the scientology website and cheer your self by thinking at least im not as stupid and gullible as them. When you want some weekend entertainment go too your local Mormon meeting, or talk too some Moonies. If you ask me athiests are the only people in the world who ever really appreciate a good religion (is that an oxymoron).

[Starboy]

I wish I lived in a part of the world where I could take that attitude, but in the US some of these theists are getting scary. There is so much magical thinking going on that all sorts of hocus pocus is allowed. I am afraid that if it continues they just may make the constitution disappear.

Starboy

[Invittica]

Yeah your right ive got it lucky across the pond.(more than 50% of the population are agnostic or Athiest in Britain and its expected that the church of England (the biggest religious denomination in Britain) will have died out in 20 or 30 years time.) And i wish you had it the same, i suppose all you can do is stand up for what you think is right.