Church-State in Denmark

[Toto]

Danish priest suspended after claiming God, eternal life don't exist (http://www.canada.com/news/story.asp?id=592CCCE0-A36A-4E50-B1AB-41FBAE9039CD)

A Danish Lutheran minister has been suspended for saying that God does not exist, there is no eternal life, and no Resurrection.

But this is the kicker - the church can't fire him because he's a government employee.


. . .The claims have mystified church leaders in the Scandinavian country of 5.3 million, where about 85 per cent of the population belongs to the state Evangelical Lutheran Church, yet just five per cent attend church services regularly.

. . .

Rebel said it's up to the Danish government's Ministry for Ecclesiastic Affairs to decide if Grosboel should be defrocked. In Denmark, Lutheran priests are employed by the state and bishops cannot fire them.

Many priests, including Tove Fergo, the minister for ecclesiastic affairs and a Lutheran priest herself, have said it's not possible to be a pastor without believing in the existence of God and the resurrection of Christ.

Others, however, including Mogens Lindhardt, the leader of Denmark's Theological College of Education, called Grosboel's claims "refreshing."


:D

[copernicus]

As with many news stories, this one does not go into sufficient depth to help us understand the motives of the person at the center of the controversy. Was Grosboel just doing a "God is dead" exercise, wherein one denies the anthropomorphic nature of God while simultaneously maintaining a belief in some kind of supernatural "force"? If so, then he was engaging in a very natural evolutionary trend in religion--the deanthropomorphization of gods.

In his Faces in the Clouds (http://dannyreviews.com/h/Faces_in_the_Clouds.html), Stewart Guthrie argued that humans were hardwired to see anthropomorphic gods in nature. He also pointed out that religious philosophers tended to find anthropomorphic gods too simplistic to be tenable, and that the human nature of our gods tends to fade as religions age. The problem is that the depersonification of gods undercuts the instinct that gives rise to them in the first place. So religions tend to "reset" themselves through fundamentalist "back-to-basics" movements. That is why the popular old trendy "God is Dead" movement is itself dead.

As I said, it is difficult to figure out what Grosboel's motives were without having more context. I would be interested to know whether Grosboel meant his statements to be taken literally or figuratively.

[Toto]

The official explanation of church state relations in Denmark (http://www.km.dk/publikationer/thechurch.htm)

Christianity was introduced in Denmark in the 9th century and be_came officially the religion of Denmark around the year 960, when King Harold Bluetooth was baptized. Until the Reformation in 1536, the Danish Church was part of the Roman Catholic Church.

With the Constitution of 1849, the absolute monarchy was replaced by democracy, and freedom of religion was introduced in substitution for compulsory membershipin the State Church. The Evangelical Lutheran Church received a special position in the Constitution, because its membership included nearly the entire Danish population.
. . .

State support of the National Church has two sides:

Morally, in that the head of State (The Queen) is the only one in Denmark obliged to be a member of the National Church. And in that the State in its legislation shows it a certain consideration, such as making laws to protect Sunday observance on the feast days of the National Church.

Economically, in that each year in the national budget (the Finance Law), financial grants are allocated to the Church. Today, however, the State subsidy constitutes only about 12 % of the revenue of the Church. The Church's most important source of income is the Church Tax, which is paid only by the members of the National Church.

In its Church Registers, the Church takes care of a basic registration of the entire Danish population. The Church also pays most of the expenses for the cemeteries and for maintenance of the churches, of which many are historical and cultural monuments. Therefore it is often asserted that it is the Church, in fact, which supports the State, and not the State supporting the Church.

[Sinista Trollsham]

This is one of the reasons why I love my country. ;)

As a member of the National State Church, I pay my taxes to the church, as I always have, with no intention to stop. The action of Mr. Grosboel is refreshing, and I do hope he is starting a trend.

Regards
Sinista Trollsham

[copernicus]

Thanks, Toto. That piece of convoluted justification reminded me of the time when SAS allowed smoking on airplanes. My wife and I once left Copenhagen on an SAS flight, but we were seated in the first economy row--just behind first class smoking. As my wife and I futilely tried to hold the curtains in front of us shut to create a barrier, we asked a Danish woman sitting next to us what had happened to the much-vaunted Scandinavian concern for public health. She coughingly replied "In my country, we also believe in civil rights." As I held a napkin over my nose and mouth and my eyes teared up, I wondered at the strange logic that would have led me to want to deprive smokers of their civil rights. ;)

[Sinista Trollsham]

I would like to ask people of this board a question:

:)
Our church have seen reforms before, once again I am grateful that Christian fundamentalism never really gained foothold in Denmark, so why not be reformed again?

Surveys have shown that nobody really believes that the almighty ‘God’ exists, and that the concept of Heaven and hell, sin and resurrection is old-fashioned babble.
Yet many people, especially young people, believe in a sort spiritual existence or natural force.
But it should not be surprising; the oldest belief in Scandinavia is Hindrvitni or ‘heathenism’ at sort of moderate spiritual faith. Go figure. :p

Question: Should the STATE CHURCH only be for a tiny dogmatic theological elite and the approximately 5% of the population that regularly frequents it (Sundays) or should it be for the people? :confused:

On a note to the case:
Thorkild Grosbølls minions (including the local church counsel) have written our Prime Minister to get their priest back. I hope they do. Today they staged a protest rally and 600 people attended (Ahem, keep in mind it is a small town in a small country)

Regards
Sinista Trollsham

[beejay]

Originally posted by Sinista Trollsham
I would like to ask people of this board a question:

:)
Question: Should the STATE CHURCH only be for a tiny dogmatic theological elite and the approximately 5% of the population that regularly frequents it (Sundays) or should it be for the people? :confused:

Regards
Sinista Trollsham

It's hard to answer a question that poses two alternatives, both of which I think are incorrect.

What about a third option? "or should we abolish the STATE CHURCH"? Why is there still a State Church if only 5% frequent it? How many countries in Europe still have State Churches?

[Per]

Originally posted by beejay
What about a third option? "or should we abolish the STATE CHURCH"? Why is there still a State Church if only 5% frequent it?

My answer would be that of course the state church should be abolished. The mere fact that so many people are members almost by default without being religious points to a basic lack of respect for that particular church, while handing the anti-separationist politicians their main argument: "But 85% of the population are members".

[Toto]

Parishioners demand return of atheist pastor (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s877813.htm)

Denmark's Minister for Ecclesiastical Affairs, Tove Fergo, has taken the Bishop's side in the matter, saying a pastor cannot work in the State church if he or she does not believe in God.

According to a study published in the religious daily Kristelig Dagbladet, 90 per cent of pastors agree.

However, a committee fighting corruption and abuse of power in Denmark has denounced what it described as censorship against the pastor, saying his freedom of expression had been violated.

It has filed a police complaint against the Church, accusing it of violating the Danish constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights.

[Buddrow_Wilson]

It has filed a police complaint against the Church, accusing it of violating the Danish constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights

haha what happens to a state church when even the clergy have protected speech! This may be the beginning of the end.

[Toto]

Update: Fury, God and the Pastor's Disbelief (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/08/international/europe/08PAST.html)

. . .

Religion in Denmark, unlike the American kind, is almost never a defining political or personal issue, pastors and experts say. That is true of almost all of Scandinavia, a profoundly secular region where the word of God, while not exactly irrelevant, is often viewed as tedious. Church attendance in Denmark is estimated at 6 percent, though some experts say the figure is even lower.

So, it was no wonder that the plight of Mr. Grosboll, a laid-back man in Oxford tweeds who is beloved by this community, has prompted many here to ask: must a minister believe in Christ and the resurrection to be a good pastor? Isn't it enough to spread Christian values and help people in need?

. . .

But it appears that even Denmark and its Lutheran Church must impose limits on religious freedom. For a man of God not to believe in God is, simply, unacceptable.

Mr. Grosboll's words are "creating doubt and confusion about the church's values," Bishop Lise-Lotte Rebel, who oversees Mr. Grosboll's parish, told an Agence France-Presse reporter on June 13.

"A pastor is an employee of the state who has obligations, and he cannot say everything publicly just by claiming that his freedom of expression is guaranteed by the Danish Constitution," she added.

. . .

Mr. Grosboll explains, in his book and in person, that he does believe in "something divine." But he does not believe in a physical God who "created man and ant," an afterlife, a Virgin Mary or anything that smacks of the metaphysical.

"I want the focus to be on the here and now, as a cultural factor," he explained. "God is not an argument. God is only a question. He is supposed to be a constant stone in the shoe."

[StrictSeparationist]

I saw the NYT article as well, and it made me think when I noted that statistic- only 6% of Danes regularly attend church services. Interesting that even though they have an established church, Christianity seems to be dying out there. Much the same is true of the U.K.- although the Church of England is sponsored by the government, British church attendance has dropped drastically in recent years. Ironically, here in the U.S., where strict church-state separation is generally enforced, the percentage of churchgoers is a lot higher- hard to say exactly where it is, but probably a majority or at least a solid plurality of Americans regularly attend a Christian church. An interesting contrast, huh? I don't know if it's just coincidence that many Western European nations with established churches have mainly secular populations, while in a nation that probably has some of the strictest ideas about keeping government and religion separate Christianity thrives. I wonder, though- which is cause and which is effect?

[CJD]

I wonder, though- which is cause and which is effect?

Very interesting question, StrictSeparationist. I think the only answer, though, is "both/and"—not "either/or." Why? Because from the beginning the concept (freedom of religion) never existed apart from the thriving of religion or the absence of religion. That is, those who were running from oppressive governments and promoted freedom of religion were themselves very religious. In like manner, those who had an intimate hand in the constitutional concept of church/state separation were very non-religious (practically atheist). Whatever else they can be faulted for, I thank them for writing this into the fabric of Americana.

There is not a single American church's confession that gives any power to the state whatsoever. Every one of them that came from historic European countries emended their confessions the day they became a "denomination."


CJD

[Per]

Originally posted by StrictSeparationist
only 6% of Danes regularly attend church services. Interesting that even though they have an established church, Christianity seems to be dying out there.

I think it is because the church is established that attendance is low. Many people like the fact that there is this big ol' church they can be married in, have their children baptised and confirmed in, and have a funeral in. But because it is supported by the state they don't have to actively support it. The situation is radically different for the other denominations in Denmark that therfore have much higher attendance like their counterparts in the USA.

[LLaurieG]

"I want the focus to be on the here and now, as a cultural factor," [Rev. Grosboll] explained. "God is not an argument. God is only a question. He is supposed to be a constant stone in the shoe."


(Laurie) Now that is refreshing! Tee-hee. "God is a stone in your shoe" - and that's how it's supposed to be! And what do you do when you have a stone in your shoe????????????? !!

[Toto]

'Atheist' priest regains his faith (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s908911.htm)

Well, not really, but he said he's sorry he said what he said.

Danish news agency Ritzau reports Bishop Lise-Lotte Rebel lifted the seven-week suspension of 55-year-old Thorkild Grosboell after he told her he "regretted" making statements he made in a newspaper interview in May.

In the interview he was quoted as saying that he did not believe in God, resurrection or eternal life.

While he later said that his comments were misconstrued, "oversimplified and categorical", he had until now refused to take them back.

[ohwilleke]

Originally posted by beejay
It's hard to answer a question that poses two alternatives, both of which I think are incorrect.

What about a third option? "or should we abolish the STATE CHURCH"? Why is there still a State Church if only 5% frequent it? How many countries in Europe still have State Churches?

Most countries in Europe have State Churches or de facto state churches. Those that have abolished them have done so only in recent history. England, Sweden (until very recently), France, Italy, Poland, Germany (two main publicly supported churches, Lutheran and Catholic), Denmark, and most of Europe really, has or has had state churches.

[Miss Piggy]

BTW, France separated church and state in 1905. But the Catholic Church is still the main religion there.

[Toto]

The Lutheran minister who proclaimed last year there was no God or afterlife was suspended for a second time Thursday for ignoring church orders not to repeat those beliefs from the pulpit. (http://www.gazettetimes.com/articles/2004/06/13/news/religion/satrel04.txt)

Grosboell "again has spoken in a strongly provocative, hurting and confusing way," Rebel said.

She cited an undated but recent sermon in which Grosboell allegedly said, "God had abdicated in favor of his son, hence in our favor. Therefore there is no longer a heavenly guarantee or an interfering might, there is only the godly kingdom (on earth) that is achieved by us and between us. So if it fails, there is nothing."

The sermon was "clearly incompatible with the state church's faith," the bishop said.

Rebel concluded that Grosboell "had disregarded the state church's basis for belief, undermined his duty's respect and confidence, disregarded the official order (and) caused a deep confusion about the state church."

Grosboell responded by saying he was puzzled.

[Per]

This breathtaking drama continues...

Why isn't there a yawn smiley?

[Strelnieks]

Germany has a similar situation. Professors of theology at state universities are public employees, but their employment must be approved by the church. Every now and then - it has happened at least twice, more times I think- some professor notices the obvious and publishes a book which denies some doctrine - that God doesn't exist or whatever. The churches can't have him fired - he has a tenured state job. But they can prohibit him from teaching theology. So the professor gets moved to some other department and the books get free publicity.

Strel