Meditation

[Whispers]

For the meditators among you, I was hoping to have a discussion about meditation techniqes you practice or recommend. I currently practice Anapanasati in the Buddhist tradition and I would like to explore techniques of meditations, goals aimed for (if any), experiences and how meditation has changed your view about the world, God, love etc. Has it made a difference to you and others and if so, how?

For the non-meditators, what are your views on meditation and how do you perceive this type of practice?

Thanks =)

[emotional]

Originally posted by Whispers
For the non-meditators, what are your views on meditation and how do you perceive this type of practice?


My view of meditation is that of medical practicality: it lowers blood pressure, it calms the meditator down, it relieves stress.

However, I deny the spiritual application of meditation. I do not believe in any "God within"; God is without, and He is a personal being distinct from His creation, not a mystical force that can be tapped into. I used to do meditation myself in the past, for hours upon hours, in hope of having a vision of God. None came. It cannot be but that one is unable to summon God at will; one can only have a vision of God if God chooses to come to one.

We are not God. God is God. God is holy above all His creation.

[Seraphim]

I do meditation sometimes, but I don't follow any written rules. Mine is simple - Sit down, close your eyes, breath in while counting to 8 and breath out while counting to 8.

[cheetah]

I don't meditate, though I'd like to. I view it as a calming influence, but do not know much about the attempts to have divine revelations or inspiration. I think I most wish that I could meditate on a treadmill. I have such a problem having a bored mind. It's like I always have to entertain my brain. If I could learn to meditate and clear my brain out, that would be helpful for stress levels and in advancing my exercising goals. That's what I picture meditation as; not so much spiritual as healthy for the brain.

[Steve K]

I meditate several times a week, usually. For a while it was actually making things worse - I read a variety of different (and contradictory) recommendations, and then if I didn't meditate for a while, I'd start to play the guilt trip on myself. (I'm an ex-fundy, so all the mental pathways for religious guilt remain.)

A big break-through for me came when I stopped judging my meditation. Sometimes it's very calming, insight arises and I have a sense of spiritual peace. Sometimes my mind jumps from one branch to the next, so to speak, and won't calm down. That's ok too. For me, fighting myself during meditation is not helpful. The more I let it go, the better it becomes.

In terms of technique, I've done eyes open and closed, sitting on chair and half lotus. I currently sit on a chair with eyes open, simply for consistency with the temple I attend. I wouldn't really recommend one above the other, although purists may say that eyes closed in half or full lotus is only right way/traditional way.

- Steve

[bagong]

Originally posted by emotional
However, I deny the spiritual application of meditation. I do not believe in any "God within"; God is without, and He is a personal being distinct from His creation, not a mystical force that can be tapped into. I used to do meditation myself in the past, for hours upon hours, in hope of having a vision of God. None came. It cannot be but that one is unable to summon God at will; one can only have a vision of God if God chooses to come to one.

We are not God. God is God. God is holy above all His creation. Although I guess Hindu, mystic Christian, and Sufi meditation is aimed at finding God within, this is certainly not the aim of Buddhist meditation. Buddhist meditation has two purposes: concentration and insight.

The former is simply about calming the mind, restraining negative mental states and cultivating positive ones. The latter is concerned with analysing our sensory experience to gain a direct perception of the three marks (impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, non-self - in the Mahayana context emptiness).

So meditation's spiritual value need not be contigent on finding God within. In fact, searching for God (as in something eternal, unchanging, perfectly blissful, etc.) and always coming up emptyhanded is the essence of Buddhist insight meditation.

[andy_d]

Originally posted by Steve K

A big break-through for me came when I stopped judging my meditation.

Absolutely. I think that's key.

I don't think the idea of gaining anything is helpful within the Buddhist context either. You don't gain anything by meditation, although you might start to lose some of your poor habits.

The most amazing thing I find about meditation is that it's always completely different, every single time.

[xorbie]

I recently started doing meditation, and do find it very calming, even for only 5 minutes. It is nice to practice breathing, as if I do it later during the day when I am becoming angry, it can calm me down like nothing else. It is also good to learn how to clear your mind, and I am now practicing an excercise I recomend to all others which is looking at an object that you would normally link with certain verbs/adjectives and trying to clear your mind of them.

So, after this I now have a question. I think this is somewhat related, although perhaps not at all. I was wondering if anyone here had any experience with OBE (out of body experiences) and/or lucid dreams.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

in terms of position, whilst the full lotus or vajra position is recommended, it is not required. you can sit in half lotus, or sit in a chair. it is important for the physical body to be in a correct posture, however there are several of them that are applicable.

in my own case, due to some knee surgery, i cannot sit in the varja (full lotus) position, though i do still try. mostly, i end up using a modified half lotus posture.

in any event, there are two meditation techniques that are employeed in my tradition, insight and absorbtion. when one is practiced enough, one uses both techniques in the same session. in the Tantric Buddhist tradition of Tibet, there is another type of meditation that is practiced, Tantric Meditation. in many respects it's not different than what has already been mentioned.

it is, however, quite different in terms of how to do it and what the results should be. as you are probably aware, there are 4 main schools of Tibetan Buddhism and they all incorporate Tantric aspects into their practice. generally speaking, T'song Ka Pa provided the basis for most of the meditations in Tibet, with, of course Padmasambhava having brought the Tantric tranditions from Uddana.

it would not be beneficial to embark upon Tantric pratice without the assistance of a qualified teacher. actually, the tradition is such that one is given an "empowerment" to practice a specific Tantric meditation by ones guru, though there are plenty of instances where mass crowds are given empowerments, such as the case of the Kalachakra tantra.

[ged]

Hello.
I have tried meditation as a part in my series "Ged is doing things that he would nevre do otherwise." (That has included specials such as, meditation, talking to complete strangers, running from complete strangers, different sports) hehe.

Well, my experience is that it just made me tired and sort of fluffy headed like when you have done math for 4-5 hours. Nothing I enjoyed, and the people are still sending me letters and new offers. Shouldn't have given them my real adress! =)

Well, now I have some questions. What is christian meditation? I have heard the term but do not know where it comes from.

What is finding the god within? and
What is finding insight?

Regards,
Ged

[Steve K]

My understanding of Christian meditation is that one reads a passage from the Bible and holds it as the object of focus in meditation.

In other words, you remain focused on the said passage while sitting silently.

At least, that's my best guess. :)

- Steve

[premjan]

The purpose of meditation overall is the smoothing out of the higher mental functions by doing some of the things we often forget to do: breathe properly, sit properly and so on. The human thought process is fairly easy to disrupt.

God is just brought into it as a conceptual means of focus.

[premjan]

I think there may be evidence out there that a monotheist point of view is overall more beneficial than a pantheist point of view, for the purpose of yoga or meditation. Anyone heard any confirming evidence of this?

[ged]

Originally posted by premjan
I think there may be evidence out there that a monotheist point of view is overall more beneficial than a pantheist point of view, for the purpose of yoga or meditation. Anyone heard any confirming evidence of this?

Ohh, and it would also be interesting to see the non-theist compared to the other two. Meditation as something healthy as compared to meditation as a spiritual exercise.

// Ged

[Elbereth]

I meditate semi-regularly, meaning if I don't meditate for a while that's okay, and I don't follow any schedule. When I was just starting I would do "guided meditations" from a book, by reading a line and meditating, then continuing, etc., and gradually I developed my own methods. Lately I've been starting with a Vipassana (mindfulness) meditation that, if I stay with it long enough, turns into a Metta (loving-kindness) meditation. (Not that I'm from the Buddhist school of thought; I prefer Taoist philosophy.)

I have to do it cross-legged (preferably with my lower back supported) with my hands on my knees, palms open to create a sense of openness, and eyes closed.

Sometimes I'll have music playing, or if there's some noise somewhere I won't worry about making it quiet, so I can try to meditate on the rhythms. I meditated to a trance CD I have once, which keeps a steady beat for over an hour, and I enjoyed it greatly.

I can't come close to expressing how I've benefitted from meditating since I started two years ago. Besides the obvious health benefits, which I actually don't think have affected me much since I don't meditate regularly, it's really made me more comfortable with myself. I don't experience the bouts of depression that I used to tell myself I didn't have, and I've gone a long way towards really loving myself. Also, I think it's helped me to be more empathetic towards others, more forgiving, and more understanding.

I smile more. Not to mean that I'm more happy, necessarily, but that I'm not so wrapped up in my thoughts (which would make me stare at the ground and scowl) so I notice more things that make me smile.

[reprise]

I was reading an interesting article on the weekend about controlled research into meditation. In short, the research found that meditation works independently of spiritual considerations (I've really over-simplified the findings there). And yes, we have a reasonable grasp of why meditation is effective - we can scientifically explain what it does and why it produces the effects it does.

The article was published in a feature which is not available online. However, enough details were given about the research that I should be able to track down something about it online and link to it.

[ged]

Interesting that you are happier now after your meditation. I only experience tiredness and fluffyheadedness, but maybe the happiness is a long term benefit?

Any advice on how you avoid the fluffy/tired feeling if I should decide to give it a try sometime in the future?

I would certainly not say no to a little happiness since the dark wintermonths are coming and with them, my winter depressions. Argh!

// Ged

[reprise]

The article I read - published in Saturday's Sydney Morning Herald Good Weekend supplement - was Keep Taking the Meditation by Kim Zetter.

It's based on the findings of a number of research projects, one of which is referred to in this BBC article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3047291.stm).

I've just signed up for a 7 day trial with New Scientist so that I can access their archives and read the complete article which was published there. Will report back when I've read it.

Bottom line, though, is that there is published, scientifically controlled, replicable research supporting the hypothesis that meditation produces both physiological and attitudinal benefits and that research explains at least some of the mechanisms involved in the production of those effects.

ged, it isn't unusual for people to describe their initial experience of meditation in the same way you do. The benefits do seem to come from repetition (in much the same way as the benefits of physical exercise rely on consistent application).

[andy_d]

Originally posted by Elbereth
Lately I've been starting with a Vipassana (mindfulness) meditation that, if I stay with it long enough, turns into a Metta (loving-kindness) meditation.

Glad you've found meditation helpful, Elbereth. Sounds like you've got quite a good attitude to it.

If I can offer some technical advice: you might find that the experience of vipassana is more effective if you've at least tried shamatha meditation. They're normally considered a linked pair, since shamatha is designed to centre and discipline the mind. Shamatha can be quite difficult, but it will help with other meditations. Give it a crack anyway, and see what you think (even if you just incorporate a short phase of it into your meditation) If it doesn't work for you, forget it. It sounds like you're doing alright anyway. There should be plenty of info around about shamatha :)

Ged: Sounds like you could be experiencing something known as the "white wall" state. This is where you're not focussed during meditation. Many westerners mistakenly think that during meditation you're supposed to empty all thoughts and enter a kind of fluffy trance state. You actually want to be resting in a state of very sharp, if effortless, awareness.

You also might find it useful to try and let go of the expectation to feel "different" either during or after your meditation. Don't try to do anything, just do it.

[ged]

Ahh, maybe the "white wall" state was all that it was then! Will remember that if I try it again sometimes. =) The coming few weeks my meditation will be java programming! =)
Regards,
Ged

[Magic Primate]

I practice zazen meditation, in full lotus now (although I reliably get a dead leg after half an hour). Essentially this is just sitting in the correct posture, fully awake in the moment and avoiding abstract thought, and not looking for anything special.

Sometimes 'special' seeming things happen anyway - such as a feeling of perfect stillness, or a loss of the sense of self. This may be partly or fully because I'm still looking for special states, but in any case I'm trying not to cling to them.

You might call it 'spiritual' in the broader sense or you might not - there is nothing supernatural or transcendent involved.

[andy_d]

From all i've heard about zazen, Magic Primate, it appears to be shamatha.

Full lotus? The only way I could get my legs to do that is if I had an extra knee put in ;)

[Magic Primate]

I was just born with flexible legs Andy. I can just about get into FL without the aid of my hands and I can touch the back of my head with my toes.

I've noticed an apparent similarity to Mahamudra Meditation in the past - is this a form of Shamatha?

[andy_d]

In other words, you're a freak :)

Shamatha (Tib: Shine) is much simpler than the more comprehensive mahamudra level. It's considered necessary to have completed a lot foundational work before using mahamudra, whereas shamatha is very appropriate for a beginner.

Basically it's the technique of one-pointed awareness. In it's most basic form it consists of following the breath and observing the mind. That sounds pretty much like my understanding of zazen.

[Magic Primate]

Zazen has object of directed awareness, no 'point', no special focus on breathing or anything - just sitting, without conceptual thought and fully awake in the moment.

[brighid]

Guided visulatization can be good for those of us who have a difficult time quieting our minds.

I usually meditate for about 5 minutes at the end of a yoga workout, longer if I am not bothered by child, husband or dogs.

I have found that focusing on a single object (such as a candle flame) helps to keep me focused and block out outside noises, etc. Lotus, half lotus or even shivasana poses work well. I simply try and focus my attention on my breathing, deeply inhaling, holding my breath for a slow count of 5 and slowly exhaling.

I do so to calm my mind and body after a long day, especially when I have had lots of information running in and out of my brain. I find I sleep better.

Exercise can be a meditative practice as well.

Brighid

[Vajradhara]

Originally posted by Steve K
My understanding of Christian meditation is that one reads a passage from the Bible and holds it as the object of focus in meditation.

In other words, you remain focused on the said passage while sitting silently.

At least, that's my best guess. :)

- Steve

Namaste Steve,

thanks for the post.

there is a group dedicated to promoting Christian Meditation that you can read up on, if you'd like, the World Community for Christian Meditation http://www.wccm.org/

in any event, this is a Benedictine organized group with plenty of information for the lay practicioner.

[Vajradhara]

Originally posted by ged
Interesting that you are happier now after your meditation. I only experience tiredness and fluffyheadedness, but maybe the happiness is a long term benefit?

Any advice on how you avoid the fluffy/tired feeling if I should decide to give it a try sometime in the future?

I would certainly not say no to a little happiness since the dark wintermonths are coming and with them, my winter depressions. Argh!

// Ged

Namaste Ged,

that is called "sinking into torpor" and is quite difficult to overcome, though it can be with the proper training.

do you already practice a specific meditation technique or practice within a certain school? i would perfer to give any advice, such that i may, in a way which is directly applicable to your situation.

edited to say: i see andy_d is currently addressing this with you :) nevermind :)

[premjan]

I used to have this problem earlier whenever I tried to meditate subsequent to academic burnout. I used to fall asleep or nearly asleep every time. Much better now, but I still have a wakefulness problem especially in the middle of the day.

In case you have some pointers or further questions, thanks.

[Vajradhara]

Originally posted by premjan
I used to have this problem earlier whenever I tried to meditate subsequent to academic burnout. I used to fall asleep or nearly asleep every time. Much better now, but I still have a wakefulness problem especially in the middle of the day.

In case you have some pointers or further questions, thanks.

namaste premjan,

thanks for the post.

according to Kalamashila, when one is encoutnering a situation where one feels mental torpor or sleep, during meditation, one should direct their thoughts to a supremely positive image, in this tradition, said image is a golden body of the buddha.. you an also use a point of light or Jesus or the like. in any event, the main thrust here is to change your meditative focus to a supremely beautiful and positive image, until the torpor passes at which point you resume your regular meditation.

if you start to experience excitement during the meditation, again according to Kalamashila, we should change the focus of our meditation to foucs on the impermanent and repulsive aspects of the object. once the excitement has passed, resume the normal object of your meditation.

Kalamashila is the author of a text called "Stages of Meditation" which is quite an important work in the Vajrayana tradition. There is a book out now in English with an explanation of the root text by the Dalai Lama, that should be available in most larger bookstores.

[premjan]

Dear Vajradhara,

Yes, I think your solution should probably work, since "low excitement" is probably my current problem. I see that it will probably pass away with some meditative technique for generation of excitement.

Thank you very much,
Prem

[Vajradhara]

Originally posted by premjan
Dear Vajradhara,

Yes, I think your solution should probably work, since "low excitement" is probably my current problem. I see that it will probably pass away with some meditative technique for generation of excitement.

Thank you very much,
Prem

Namaste Prem,

i appreciate your thanks :)

though i am more happy that it's advice that may be applicable for your situation :D

[Luther Maze]

What Books on meditation have you all read?
I've only read Meditation: The First and Last Freedom (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312169272/qid=1068333100/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/002-0463259-3981656?v=glance&s=books) by osho.
He mentions many differant techniques but stresses the point of being the witness and the witnessed.
He states the point is to go beyond 'focusing' to reach a point where the mind is not thinking.
He states that meditation is doing nothing. Harder than you would like to think.

I've tryed meditation on breathing and the ascent of life energy.
The farthest I've gotten was a point of witnessing my thoughts without controling them.

Once I get the book back from my sister I plan to read over it again.

[Luther Maze]

I forgot to mention I've also read a book on lucid dreaming written my a psychologist.
It was very informative on what was happening when I experienced sleep paralysis, a very scary ordeal if you don't know what's happening.
It also dispells the notion of Out of body experiences and Astral projection by stating that in a lucid dream one can't read someting twice. Which those who believe in OBE's and Astral projection also clame is true of there experiances i.e. they can't read in these states.
Also he states that a lucid dream seems VERY real, which is farther evidance to this case.

[Sarpedon]

I have never meditated in the normal way, as all the books I've read about it says that it is dangerous to attempt without a teacher, but I sometimes do the breath-counting exercise, and more interestingly, have attempted a kind of walking around zazen, where I go to a crowded and active place, concentrate on observing my surroundings as completely as possible, but without judgement, and being completely aware. Some very interesting sensations ensued. I guess I have never had time or money or convenient location to learn proper meditation. One of these days I will get around to it.

[Luther Maze]

Originally posted by Sarpedon
all the books I've read about it says that it is dangerous to attempt without a teacher,
I read a book on the astral body that says the 'ascent of life energy' of life energy meditation is dangerous without a teacher but i just see this as them wanting to pull you into their religion.
The book i mentioned earlier says it's dangerous but doesn't say you need a person present. It just says to make sure you not interupted.

[andy_d]

I don't know about how "dangerous" meditating can be. It's not like your head's going to explode if you do it wrong. It's just that like all new skills, you'll learn a lot better from someone with experience than from a book.

Having said that, there are of course negative states of mind as well as positive ones, and you could end up practicing one of these by accident, which wouldn't do you much good. I suppose you could call that "dangerous" :confused:

As for having money to learn, unless you're learning from the TM bods it won't normally cost anything. TM by comparison, will cost you an arm and a leg. Don't be afraid to go to a traditional source of meditation excellence, such as the Buddhists. They won't try to convert you, and often have meditations specifically for non-Buddhists. Other traditions may do the same, but I can't be sure. Look around.

[premjan]

it could be dangerous in that you could focus a little too much and end up rather drained (end up in a rather permanent, very depleted energy state).

[andy_d]

Hmm, well for me the word "danger" belongs in the catagory of experience such as being run down by a large truck or falling into an industrial pastry mixer before being devoured by alligators, but maybe that's just me :D

[Luther Maze]

On the subject of dangerous osho expresses caution when meditating on darkness.
He says that when you do this you confront your inner fears. Mainly he's saying that one should expect the mind to portray fearful images and emotions. In doing this you can make peace with them for they are just thoughts and emotions, i.e. they are not you. You see and recognize them and in this know they are not you thus harmless.

or something like that.

[premjan]

seriously: permanently warping your psyche is not dangerous? Meditation IMO affords the opinion to change yourself radically. This could indeed be dangerous, like anything else.

[Sarpedon]

I think its more along the lines of wasting time, coming to false conclusions, and possibly developing psychoses, rather than the danger of wearing a pink triangle to a KKK meeting.