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Ted Hoffman
July 11, 2003, 11:36 AM
This is not intended to be a refutation of Yuris "thesis": evolutionary view of the gospels (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53550) . I have read it and its my view that its a huge and important subject that he ought to have given a more detailed treatment - especially given his passionate "campaign" against "Markan priority" and the favourable acceptance MP has enjoyed so far. I discern a feeling of resignation in Yuris' writing - he doesnt go into details of supporting his assertions. He is like one who is simply expressing his thoughts, letting his position known but not interested in convincing the reader that his position is correct.

I came off feeling he was rehashing the same concept in scholarly circles - except he was distancing himself from the herd, sharply criticizing it for its complacence and inability to "think outside the box". The main thing is that he layed MORE emphasis on the evolutionary theory - its my assertion that its always been there and its generally accepted.

Yuris unmasked contempt for "NT Scholars" throws a heterodox cloak around his thesis and his comparison of NT Scholars with creationists bereaves his article of scholarly objectivism and seems like sour grapes at work. His lack of effort in supporting his ideas seems to justify this view: he only wants to discredit the NT Scholars to cathartically let out his vitriol - not put up a solid alternative view.

I am a layman in this so Yuri will have to forgive me if I ask questions whose answers seem obvious.

It seems to me that the way our mainstream biblical scholars still see the early history of Christian gospels can be best compared with Creationism. After all, each of our mainstream Synoptic theories today -- whether it is 2ST, 2GT, or Farrer -- is premised essentially on the assumption that all of the Synoptic gospels somehow emerged into the world in a single act of creation -- each put together by a single writer, it seems, an exegetical genius of some sort, locked up in a private study somewhere, and isolated from all the others.
I dont think the statement "all of the Synoptic gospels somehow emerged into the world in a single act of creation" is correct.

First of all, Q is a document whose existence is generally well established (the only unknown thing is its exact extent) and its use in the Gospels as a source is clear. Midrashic writing of the Gospels is equally well accepted (that is OT as a source). And these two alone (leaving aside "mimesis" and the origins of the passion narrative question) refute Yuri's assertion above (about a single act of creation).

That means, Q was a source, the OT was a source and midrashic writing also was used to expand on the OT, fulfil prophecies (see Matthew and Isaiah 7:14) and this is leaving sources like Philo's Against Flaccus and Concerning Flaccus as the source of the passion narrative aside.

From here (http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/synopt/) :
The dominant source theory among scholars today, the 2SH holds that Mark was the first gospel to be composed and became the primary narrative source for Matthew and Luke (Markan priority). In addition, Matthew and Luke independently supplemented their Markan material with sayings of Jesus from a lost sayings collection, termed "Q".
Two basic propositions for 2SH/2ST:

a. The existence of Q.

b. The priority of Mark (mp) - Mark 1:1-16:8 was used by bothe Mathew and Luke.

Arguments for the 2SH as listed by Stephen C. CarlsonA. Priority of Mark
The contemporary argument for the priority of Mark is cumulative. It rests not on the strength of any one argument but on the cumulation of many arguments. (Stein 1987: 88; Tuckett 1992: 264) These arguments supporting Markan priority include:

Argument from Omission. Easier to see certain material (infancy accounts, Sermon on the Mount) being added to Mark by Matthew and Luke than Mark's omitting them from Matthew and Luke. (Stein 1987: 48-49; Tuckett 1992: 264)
Argument from Length. Easier to see both Matthew's and Luke's compressing the text of Mark to add their own material rather than Mark's abridging the content and expanding the words of one or both of the others. (Stein 1987: 49-51; Tuckett 1992: 264)
Argument from Diction. Easier to see both Matthew's and Luke's improving Mark's colloquialisms in vocabulary rather than Mark's intentionally or incompetently being less literary. (Stein 1987: 52-53)
Argument from Grammar. Easier to see both Matthew's and Luke's improving Mark's grammar rather than Mark's "dumbing down" one or both of the others. (Stein 1987: 54)
Argument from Aramaic Expressions. Easier to see both Matthew's and Luke's removal of Aramaicisms for their Greek-speaking audience than Mark's addition of them to his source(s). (Stein 1987: 55-58)
Argument from Redundancy. Easier to see both Matthew's and Luke's eliminating Mark's redundancies. (Stein 1987: 58-62; Tuckett 1992: 267)
Argument from Difficulty. Easier to see both Matthew's and Luke's modifying certain "harder readings" of Mark rather than vice versa. (Stein 1987: 62-67; Tuckett 1992: 265-66)
Argument from Order. Easier to understand reasons for the specific divergences of Matthew's and Luke's order from that of Mark's than vice versa. (Tuckett 1992: 264-65)
Argument from Literary Agreements. Easier to explain how Matthew and Luke seem to occasionally refer to omitted explanatory material in Mark. (Stein 1987: 70-76)
Argument from Redaction. Easier to see Matthew's adding his theological emphases than Mark's removing them. (Stein 1987: 77-81) Easier to account for an uneven distribution of Mark's stylistic features in Matthew. (Stein 1987: 81-83)
Argument from Theology. Easier to see Matthew's and Luke's more frequent use of "Lord" being later developed than Mark's one use. (Stein 1987: 84-86)

I think argument from diction and grammar are very strong. Carlson references Robert H. Steins The Synoptic Problem very heavily above.
Yuris task will be to methodically refute each of the arguments above.

B. Existence of Q
The existence of Q follows from the conclusion that Luke and Matthew are independent in the double tradition. Therefore, the liteary connection in the double tradition must be explained by an indirect relationship, namely, through use of a common source or sources.

Arguments for Luke's and Matthew's independence:
Disuse of the other's non-Markan material in triple tradition.
For example, it is easier to understand Luke's near total omission of this material as due to not having it before him.

Different contexts for the double tradition material. It is argued that it is easier to explain Luke's "artistically inferior" arrangement of the double tradition into more primitive contexts within his Gospel as due to not knowing Matthew. Easier to see the disparate treatment of the order of the Double Tradition versus the Triple Tradition as the result of two sources. This argument is more cogent for an oral Q rather than a written Q.

Mutual primitivity: Easier to explain why the form of the material sometimes appears more primitive in Matthew but other times more primitive in Luke

Doublets. Sometimes it appears that doublets in Matthew and Luke have one half that comes from Mark and the other half from some common source, i.e. Q.

Disuse of the other's non-Markan, non-sayings material outside the triple tradition. Easier to explain the different infancy, genealogical, and resurrection accounts as due to not knowing each other.

Arguments for Q being a written document:

Exactness in Wording. Sometimes the exactness in wording is quite impressive. E.g. Matt. 6:24 = Luke 16:13 (27/28 Greek words). Matt. 7:7-8 = Luke 11:9-10 (24/24 Greek words).
Some Correspondence in Order. There is some common order between the two Sermons on/at the Mount.
Doublets. Doublets are often a sign of two written sources. Used to great effect in the Documentary Hypothesis (OT analog to the 2SH).

Again, Yuri needs to show that these arguments are invalid. Alternatively, he can point us to a site that has already done that.

Now lets continue examining Yuris work "the evolutionary view of the gospels":

Yuri states:
And after each of the gospels had been written down "during the first century", it had been frozen textually, more or less, somewhat miraculously perhaps?
I think it would be best if you specified which NT Scholars subscribe to this strawman-sounding allegation.

But what I'm offering here, on the other hand, is essentially an evolutionary view of gospels' history. And, on this view, no single date can ever be affixed to any of our 4 canonical gospels.
Date of what Yuri? Start date? Date of continuation? date of writing? date of redaction?

Their development was a continuous process, that started perhaps even before 70 CE, and continued well past 200 CE. And, all throughout, while this process unfolded, there had been a lot of cross-pollination among the gospels -- the sort of a cross-pollination that's usually pretty obvious even to a casual reader. After all, especially after the 4 gospels had been assembled together into a single edition ca 170 CE, the whole collection was owned by the Church, so all 4 gospels had a potential common editor who was quite interested in making their accounts appear more harmonious.
So the editor remained the same? Same political and theological bias - accross a century? Was the sociological

So what follows, I submit, is an entirely realistic and rational account of the early history of Christian gospels, based on solid historical and textual evidence.
This may well be so, but you have failed to provide the "solid historical and textual evidence".

And so, as I see it, the development of the gospels may have started even before 70 CE
200BCE is before 70 CE - so how far before 70 CE? It sounds like an ad hoc dating.

So it's the liturgical role of the gospels that I'm now talking about; from the earliest times, these texts were meant to be read during Church services.
Whats the link between the liturgical (or other) role and the dating? The shift in argument is unclear.

Is it your argument that they were meant to be read during Church services ALONE?
What do you mean by Church? - considering we are talking pre-70 CE era?

But even this suggestion, itself, that the gospels have always been primarily the liturgical documents, is already likely to raise some hackles among today's NT specialists, (and here, I see some hidden Protestant bias at work, about, which later). All too often, scholars would like to see the history of the gospels quite apart from the history of the Church -- which would already be a significant departure from the scientific historical perspective. So here we already get into the fantasy world of "the isolated evangelists", writing quite apart from the natural dimensions of time and space, and quite oblivious of the larger world around them, as if suspended in a vacuum somewhere.

There is a difference between disagreeing that the gospels were primarily used as liturgical documents and "seeing the history of the gospels quite apart from the history of the Church".
Which scholars see the evolution of the gospels as entirely unrelated to the history of the church? Where do they state this?

But let's get back to the real history now. So, at some point in time, most likely well after 70 CE, there happened to emerge a first complete gospel narrative -- the first Christian proto-gospel, that soon began to serve as a model for some further creative efforts in this direction by other groups of believers.

Hmmmm...dont you know that markan priority has a variation that supposes the existence of an early form of mark called Uk-Markus or deutero-Mark?
How is it any different from your proto-gospel? save you fail to specify a name for yours and choose to leave it open to be either Lukan or Markan?

Myself, I believe that that original, and still rather mysterious proto-gospel was produced by the Jewish-Christians outside of Israel. It was probably very short, and textually looked the closest to our Gospel of Luke. I would date this important break-through at shortly before 100 CE. And, before that time, the Christians just used the Jewish Scriptures, adding to them, for some special occasions, a few liturgical texts of their own.

Note that you have failed to offer any support for your argument above.
As soon as the news about its production got around, it seems that there was a response from the Jewish-Christian believers who were based in Jerusalem (and there's evidence that quite a few of them remained there even after 70 CE).
Speculation.
As for John's Gospel, it's clearly very close to Lk in a number of important respects, so it was probably originally also based on "L".
Which were these important similarities between Lk and Jn?
How "strong" were they? What is the basis for giving Luke precedence over Jn - is it based on the similarities?


But then, after some considerable evolutionary development of its own, the final edition of John did come to diverge from "L" more substantially.
Speculation.

The original Jewish-Christianity was now being systematically supplanted by the victorious proto-Catholic forces; it was gradually and systematically pushed out to the periphery of things.
What time frame are you talking about? 70CE-110CE? 70CE-500CE?
What were these proto-Catholic forces?

The first solid historical attestation of any Christian gospel is associated with Marcion, a very important early heretic, active in Rome ca 140 CE.
Am writing a paper on Dohertys treatment of the apostolic fathers vis-a-vis Christ logos and HJ (and I have been interested in Marcion) - what qualifies as "solid historical attestation of any Christian gospel"?

But, of course, he wasn't necessarily considered a heretic at first, and for a time he even hoped to be elected as the Christian bishop of Rome. Marcion used some sort of a short version of Luke, minus the name "Luke".
What made what Marcion used "Lukan"? what were its characteristics.

First, it indicates that the proto-Luke was the gospel that was most popular at that time either in Asia Minor (where Marcion hailed from originally), or in Rome, or perhaps, quite likely, in both places at once.
So, the proto-gospel was most popular in Asia Minor or in Rome because Marcion used it?

Otherwise, why would have Marcion chosen proto-Luke as his main gospel?
Maybe because they all looked the same to him? maybe because its all he had at the time?
But still, we need to be clear what constitutes as "lukan characteristics". And when you say "main" gospel - does that mean it was not the only one? Which were these others?

Papias was well aware of Mark and Matthew.
And therefore Marcion must have been aware of them too?

And let's also keep in mind that this Marcionite controversy came against the background of Jewish-Christianity being basically outlawed by the Roman state.
For the uninitiated readers like me, a brief description of the nature and magnitude of this marcionite controversy would be very helpful.

There can be very little doubt that these momentous events, taking place in the larger Roman society, could not fail but leave a deep imprint on what we now consider the canonical gospels
State the suppositions you are making in constructing this assertion please.

I was looking for your arguments against markan priority (of course I am disapointed). The evolutionary view as proposed by you is not contra mainstream NT Scolarship per se. Unless you are basing your argument on their position about the gospels having been developed and used for liturgical purposes. The literary cross-pollination, redaction, syncretizing and enlargement of the gospels, I believe is accepted even by Crossan (in The Historical Jesus: the Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant), Price (in Of Myth and Men) the socio-political influences on the gospels (though in different flavours - the latter largely on literary borrowings), I believe, has been given due consideration by NT Scholars unless you want to be more specific?

I found the protestant bias very interesting.

Dominus Paradoxum
July 11, 2003, 12:02 PM
I was interested in this bit:
Am writing a paper on Dohertys treatment of the apostolic fathers vis-a-vis Christ logos and HJ (and I have been interested in Marcion)

Since I'm someone who finds Doherthy's treatment intuitively plausible, I'd like to know what, in your opinion, is right or wrong with it, and what the thesis of your paper is.

Yuri Kuchinsky
July 11, 2003, 02:42 PM
Hello, Jacob,

While, in general, I like it when my arguments are being examined in detail, of course, but, still, I must say that I found your tone a bit too aggressive and off-putting.

This is the area where I've been working hard for many years. You OTOH seem to have just arrived there, and already you begin to accuse me of all sorts of things, and to make all sorts of demands. If you want a good general introduction to what I'm proposing, I suggest that you first read a couple of books by Loisy, who is my main influence. Then, if you're interested, we can just discuss Loisy's theories. And then, there's also my own recent 500 page book that explores the same territory, more or less.

Now, when you have read all this stuff, plus some of the articles on my webpage, then you'll definitely have the right to accuse me of whatever it is you want to accuse me of. But now, it just sounds too aggressive and off-putting.

Given your tone, I already feel somehow like my response is going to fall on deaf ears... Why even bother replying?

Originally posted by Jacob Aliet
This is not intended to be a refutation of Yuris "thesis": evolutionary view of the gospels (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53550) . I have read it and its my view that its a huge and important subject that he ought to have given a more detailed treatment


Well, nobody replied to my original article in detail in the first place, and now you already want "a more detailed treatment"? Geez...


- especially given his passionate "campaign" against "Markan priority" and the favourable acceptance MP has enjoyed so far.


So then I take it that you've never yet read any critiques of Markan priority that come from the Griesbachians, for example? These are dime a dozen...

And what about Koester's more nuanced critique? Once again, read what Vinnie already posted based on that.


I discern a feeling of resignation in Yuris' writing - he doesnt go into details of supporting his assertions. He is like one who is simply expressing his thoughts, letting his position known but not interested in convincing the reader that his position is correct.

I came off feeling he was rehashing the same concept in scholarly circles - except he was distancing himself from the herd, sharply criticizing it for its complacence and inability to "think outside the box".


Well, I don't appreciate these sorts of hostile speculations.


The main thing is that he layed MORE emphasis on the evolutionary theory - its my assertion that its always been there and its generally accepted.


So then how about some cites here? Surely the man of your erudition should be able to provide some quotes? After all, you're now _asserting_!


Yuris unmasked contempt for "NT Scholars" throws a heterodox cloak around his thesis and his comparison of NT Scholars with creationists bereaves his article of scholarly objectivism and seems like sour grapes at work. His lack of effort in supporting his ideas seems to justify this view: he only wants to discredit the NT Scholars to cathartically let out his vitriol - not put up a solid alternative view.


More hostile speculations and baseless accusations...

Are you sure you want to continue with this? Is this going to be some sort of a pissing match, or something? If this is your intention, then count me out. Or else learn some manners.


I am a layman in this so Yuri will have to forgive me if I ask questions whose answers seem obvious.


No way I'll ever forgive you now, after the sort of tripe that you've already been laying on me... :rolleyes:


I dont think the statement "all of the Synoptic gospels somehow emerged into the world in a single act of creation" is correct.

First of all, Q is a document whose existence is generally well established (the only unknown thing is its exact extent) and its use in the Gospels as a source is clear. Midrashic writing of the Gospels is equally well accepted (that is OT as a source). And these two alone (leaving aside "mimesis" and the origins of the passion narrative question) refute Yuri's assertion above (about a single act of creation).

That means, Q was a source, the OT was a source and midrashic writing also was used to expand on the OT, fulfil prophecies (see Matthew and Isaiah 7:14) and this is leaving sources like Philo's Against Flaccus and Concerning Flaccus as the source of the passion narrative aside.


None of this contradicts in any way what I said. I guess you simply don't understand what you're talking about...

The Q Source was never considered in any detail in my article. I don't believe in Q, and I'm not really interested in dealing with this pink elephant. According to the 2ST, both Mt and Lk were based on Mk and Q, and both were basically written in a single act of creation based on Mk and Q. So what's your point again?

And the other stuff you mention is equally irrelevant.

What I'm talking about is the textual evolution of the gospels _after_ the first editions were composed.


Argument from Omission. Easier to see certain material (infancy accounts, Sermon on the Mount) being added to Mark by Matthew and Luke than Mark's omitting them from Matthew and Luke. (Stein 1987: 48-49; Tuckett 1992: 264)


This is not actually relevant to my argument against the priority of the _canonical_ Mark. Because, when I'm arguing against Markan Priority, it is against the canonical Markan Priority that I'm arguing. In other words, what I'm saying is that it's the _canonical_ Mark that was definitely not the source of Mt and Lk.

I do accept that the earliest Synoptic Source Gospel _was_ a short gospel that lacked the infancy accounts, and the Sermon on the Mount.


Argument from Length. Easier to see both Matthew's and Luke's compressing the text of Mark to add their own material rather than Mark's abridging the content and expanding the words of one or both of the others. (Stein 1987: 49-51; Tuckett 1992: 264)


Same as above. But, in any case, this argument was a bit too vague to start with.


Argument from Diction. Easier to see both Matthew's and Luke's improving Mark's colloquialisms in vocabulary rather than Mark's intentionally or incompetently being less literary. (Stein 1987: 52-53)


This one needs some specific examples, that need to be argued case by case. So far, it's a rather vague general argument only.


Argument from Grammar. Easier to see both Matthew's and Luke's improving Mark's grammar rather than Mark's "dumbing down" one or both of the others. (Stein 1987: 54)


Same as above.


Argument from Aramaic Expressions. Easier to see both Matthew's and Luke's removal of Aramaicisms for their Greek-speaking audience than Mark's addition of them to his source(s). (Stein 1987: 55-58)


But how do we know that Mark has more Aramaicisms than either Matthew or Luke?


Argument from Redundancy. Easier to see both Matthew's and Luke's eliminating Mark's redundancies. (Stein 1987: 58-62; Tuckett 1992: 267)


This isn't an argument against anything I've said so far.


Argument from Difficulty. Easier to see both Matthew's and Luke's modifying certain "harder readings" of Mark rather than vice versa. (Stein 1987: 62-67; Tuckett 1992: 265-66)


Specific cases need to be argued here. Just how "easier" is "easier"?

Argument from Order? Such arguments are always extremely convoluted and generally inconclusive.

Argument from Literary Agreements? Seems quite vague on the surface of it...

Argument from Redaction? Again, seems very vague as stated by Carlson...

Argument from Theology? But Markan theology is generally pro-Gentile. So this argument also goes the other way.

B. Existence of Q

I'm not dealing with this. Not essential to my argument. Lots of people reject Q, and not just me.


Now lets continue examining Yuris work "the evolutionary view of the gospels":

Yuri states: And after each of the gospels had been written down "during the first century", it had been frozen textually, more or less, somewhat miraculously perhaps?

I think it would be best if you specified which NT Scholars subscribe to this strawman-sounding allegation.


And I think it would be best if _you_ specified which NT Scholars _do not_ subscribe to this.


YURI: But what I'm offering here, on the other hand, is essentially an evolutionary view of gospels' history. And, on this view, no single date can ever be affixed to any of our 4 canonical gospels.

Date of what Yuri? Start date? Date of continuation? date of writing? date of redaction?


Date of writing.

If you don't understand even the simplest things I write, it's certainly difficult to see the reason for your zeal in trying to refute them...


So the editor remained the same? Same political and theological bias - accross a century? Was the sociological


Your sentence is incomplete.


This may well be so, but you have failed to provide the "solid historical and textual evidence".


Read my book and my webpage.

[Omit some uninformed questions. Again, read my book and my webpage.]


Which scholars see the evolution of the gospels as entirely unrelated to the history of the church?


And which scholars see the evolution of the gospels as somehow related to the history of the church? Where do they state this?


Hmmmm...dont you know that markan priority has a variation that supposes the existence of an early form of mark called Uk-Markus or deutero-Mark?


Geez... Uk-Markus??? It's UR-MARKUS!

And you don't even seem to know that Ur-Markus is the OPPOSITE of the deutero-Mark???

And you want to have a pissing match about the Synoptic problem here?

And BTW, both the Ur-Markus and the deutero-Mark theories are NOT in any way the same as the standard Markan Priority Theory!

Geez... Is this a waste of time or what?

[snip most of the rest]


What made what Marcion used "Lukan"? what were its characteristics.


Read basic secondary literature. EVERYONE says that Marcion used some sort of a Lukan-type gospel. You really don't have the first clue...

If you want to continue this discussion, first you'd need to apologise for your hostile attitude that you've already demonstrated, and then it looks like you'd need to start reading a lot of secondary literature to bring you up to speed. It may take you a few months. You can start with Koester, and then progress to Loisy.

Yours,

Yuri.

Ted Hoffman
July 12, 2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Dominus Paradoxum
I was interested in this bit:
Since I'm someone who finds Doherthy's treatment intuitively plausible, I'd like to know what, in your opinion, is right or wrong with it, and what the thesis of your paper is.
Then you are in the right place. It will be ready next week. I have a lot of background checks to do - me being a Layman and all. I believe it will be very interesting and edifying.
Its more like a review.

Ted Hoffman
July 12, 2003, 12:53 AM
And what about Koester's more nuanced critique? Once again, read what Vinnie already posted based on that.
That is what I will read next since you have mentioned it twice.
But we obviously can't discuss much - you are too defensive and aggravated. For whatever it was worth, I have read your work and responded to it how I could.

Yuri Kuchinsky
July 13, 2003, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Jacob Aliet
That is what I will read next since you have mentioned it twice.
But we obviously can't discuss much - you are too defensive and aggravated. For whatever it was worth, I have read your work and responded to it how I could.

Yes, I found your attitude rather aggravating, especially considering your obvious lack of familiarity with the subject matter.

Yours,

Yuri.

Vinnie
July 13, 2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Jacob Aliet
That is what I will read next since you have mentioned it twice.
But we obviously can't discuss much - you are too defensive and aggravated. For whatever it was worth, I have read your work and responded to it how I could.

For convenience and anyone else interested my article can be found here:

http://www.acfaith.com/gmark.html

Vinnie

Ted Hoffman
July 15, 2003, 01:51 AM
Thanks Vinnie, Yuri, is there any chance you will be posting those oh-so-interesting credentials Haran asked for a short while ago?

Ted Hoffman
July 15, 2003, 05:55 AM
Now that things have calmed down, I think its time I reverted to this thread.

Ted Hoffman
July 16, 2003, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by Vinnie
For convenience and anyone else interested my article can be found here:

http://www.acfaith.com/gmark.html

Vinnie
I have perused the essay. Well written. I will give it a detailed treatment.

Ted Hoffman
July 16, 2003, 11:00 AM
Hi Yuri,
While, in general, I like it when my arguments are being examined in detail, of course, but, still, I must say that I found your tone a bit too aggressive and off-putting.
Sorry. That was not the intention I had. I apologise.

This is the area where I've been working hard for many years. You OTOH seem to have just arrived there, and already you begin to accuse me of all sorts of things, and to make all sorts of demands. If you want a good general introduction to what I'm proposing, I suggest that you first read a couple of books by Loisy, who is my main influence. Then, if you're interested, we can just discuss Loisy's theories. And then, there's also my own recent 500 page book that explores the same territory, more or less.
Wow, Yuri. Tall list. Dont you think its a mite too tall ? :) - I mean, just to discuss your essay?

Why do I have to reinvent the wheel when we have you here. You have read and understood the books, so you could perharps be kind enough to supply only the relevant details?

Given your tone, I already feel somehow like my response is going to fall on deaf ears... Why even bother replying?
Come on <squeezes Yuris shoulder gently> dont be too touchy ;)
Sorry it came off that way.

Well, nobody replied to my original article in detail in the first place, and now you already want "a more detailed treatment"? Geez...
Just an opinion Yuri. Just expressing an opinion. That was all. Its all up to you.

So then I take it that you've never yet read any critiques of Markan priority that come from the Griesbachians, for example? These are dime a dozen...
No, I haven't.

And what about Koester's more nuanced critique? Once again, read what Vinnie already posted based on that.
I perused it - I will read more and respond to it.

Well, I don't appreciate these sorts of hostile speculations.
That much is clear now.

So then how about some cites here? Surely the man of your erudition should be able to provide some quotes? After all, you're now _asserting_!
The fact that scholars talk of strata, and sources, and interpolations and proto this and proto that, literary borrowings, traditions etc - all these imply evolution. None of the Gospels are known to have been written on stone ex-nihilo and to have remained unchanged over time.

I do not agree that I should have no knowledge gaps before I am qualified to debate on this matter. The manner in which you handle perceived knowledge gaps doesn't speak very well about you.

Ted Hoffman
July 16, 2003, 11:01 AM
Since Vinnies essay was more focused on the question of Markan priority, I will discuss MP when I start that coming thread.

keyser_soze
July 16, 2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Jacob Aliet
[I do not agree that I should have no knowledge gaps before I am qualified to debate on this matter. The manner in which you handle perceived knowledge gaps doesn't speak very well about you.


I don't think he is saying that he wants you to have NO gaps, but probably feels that you definately need more information on the subject before launching into what appeared(but now we are otherwise informed) to be an adversarial debate on his theory. His work is good, and knowing yuri, I think it is unlikely that he meant to sound as harsh as he did. A failure of communication in both directions, perhaps you two could discuss it post-study in a more genial manner? You will enjoy the reading, but you should really read some of his list before tearing into his position. He makes a strong argument, but if you are not read on the subject, it will be hard going.

Now, boxers....please bump gloves and re-enter your corners for the bell.

Ted Hoffman
July 17, 2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by keyser_soze
I don't think he is saying that he wants you to have NO gaps, but probably feels that you definately need more information on the subject before launching into what appeared(but now we are otherwise informed) to be an adversarial debate on his theory. His work is good, and knowing yuri, I think it is unlikely that he meant to sound as harsh as he did. A failure of communication in both directions, perhaps you two could discuss it post-study in a more genial manner? You will enjoy the reading, but you should really read some of his list before tearing into his position. He makes a strong argument, but if you are not read on the subject, it will be hard going.

Now, boxers....please bump gloves and re-enter your corners for the bell.
Your point is well taken. What I disagree with is being asked to read his website and book, YET I am not discussing his website or book. What I did not understand (about marcionite controversy and its role), I asked.

There are things in his essay that I understand, like its general thrust and most of his arguments. I merely pressed him to support them. Its incorrect to expect one to accept (unsupported)arguments from another simply because the latter has spent 20 years studying the subject.

I think I should now move on to Koester...

Yuri Kuchinsky
July 17, 2003, 01:46 PM
Jacob,

Fair enough, I accept your apology for some of those things you said. And, in turn, I'd also like to apologise for the general tone of my own response to you that was probably a bit too angry. It's just that both your responses in that other thread about the SecMk, combined with your response in this thread made me feel as if you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. Oh, well, perhaps it was just a misperception on my part, so now perhaps we can lay the whole thing to rest.

Originally posted by Jacob Aliet


YURI: So then I take it that you've never yet read any critiques of Markan priority that come from the Griesbachians, for example? These are dime a dozen...

JACOB: No, I haven't.


Well, the Griesbachians have been quite adamant for a long time that Mk wasn't the earliest gospel. A lot of their detailed critiques are quite valid, although not all... Their own insistence on the Matthean priority limits their critique considerably IMO. Matthean priority theory also has many weak spots of its own.


The fact that scholars talk of strata, and sources, and interpolations and proto this and proto that, literary borrowings, traditions etc - all these imply evolution. None of the Gospels are known to have been written on stone ex-nihilo and to have remained unchanged over time.


Now, the question here is whether or not I'm right in comparing the mainstream NT scholars to creationists. This is of course a very broad label, but I continue to stand by this _general_ characterisation.

You reply by saying that "scholars talk of strata, and sources, and interpolations and proto this and proto that, literary borrowings, traditions..."

OK, let's go through this list one by one.

STRATA
Who exactly is talking about the compositional strata in Mk? Please name some scholars other than Koester.

SOURCES
This is irrelevant to my thesis.

INTERPOLATIONS
Who exactly is talking about the interpolations in Mk, other than Koester? (The ending of Mk may be an exception here, and can be considered as a separate subject.)

And who exactly is talking about the interpolations in Paul at this time? This is generally a very taboo subject in NT scholarly literature.

PROTO THIS AND PROTO THAT
Who exactly is talking about the proto-Mk nowadays (other than Koester)?

LITERARY BORROWINGS, TRADITIONS
This is irrelevant to my thesis.

My main focus is the textual evolution of Mk _after_ the earliest edition was composed. So who exactly is talking about this at this time?

Yours,

Yuri.

Vinnie
July 17, 2003, 02:00 PM
My main focus is the textual evolution of Mk _after_ the earliest edition was composed. So who exactly is talking about this at this time?

Not the Jerome Bible commentray, they dismiss the argumetns put forth in my argument.

I find in my limited readings that "canonical scholars" fail to see the textual problems with their canon. Other scholars like Koester and Stevan Davis and others who don't priotize canonical materials are more open in this regard.

Though Kummel intro to the nT did say all Christian texts are unstable or some such. A few scholars recognize this but Yuri is right, a lot of scholars seem to want to ignore the textual instability of early Christian texts. I can document this instability quite well and would even formally debate the subject here if someone wants to take up the opposite side. It would be quite easy.

Have to run

Ted Hoffman
July 21, 2003, 02:46 AM
Who exactly is talking about the compositional strata in Mk? Please name some scholars other than Koester.
I believe Crossan does - considering his first stratum, second stratum etc - one can see we have e.g. sayings collections, miracles collections, then there are arguments about expurging of proleptic passages in Secret Gospel of Mark to result in the (second) gospel of Mark. These layers were built upon each other and intergrated on various degrees; add to this cross-pollination together with literary borrowings (and here I have in mind Leidners arguments about aspects of the passion narrative being borrowed from the works of philo) and this basically can be considered as evolution of the Gospel(s). Even the ending of Mark (16:9-20) is argued to have been missing in the original ms.

So I disagree that "all of the Synoptic gospels somehow emerged into the world in a single act of creation". This is the argument you made - I notice that you have narrowed down to Mark in the questions you are directing to me.

Just to quote you in full:

After all, each of our mainstream Synoptic theories today -- whether it is 2ST, 2GT, or Farrer -- is premised essentially on the assumption that all of the Synoptic gospels somehow emerged into the world in a single act of creation -- each put together by a single writer, it seems, an exegetical genius of some sort, locked up in a private study somewhere, and isolated from all the others. And after each of the gospels had been written down "during the first century", it had been frozen textually, more or less, somewhat miraculously perhaps?

I still think you need to prove this statement because it is grossly inaccurate. You seem more intent on putting me to task - which should not be the case because you were the one putting forth a positive argument (the evolutionary view). Which (a) I argue is not novel.

I also argue that (b) the statement above (highlighted) is false and not supported.

You also seem to be arguing like your claims are supported by Koester upfront in some way and so you use that to implicitly render my counterarguments invalid in case I use Koester to support me.
But you never did state that Koester supports your evolutionary view (though he does). So it seems opportunistic to take his side now that your ambitious claims are being questioned.

The following statements are evidence of this convenient cooption that I talk of:

Who exactly is talking about the compositional strata in Mk? Please name some scholars other than Koester.
...Who exactly is talking about the interpolations in Mk, other than Koester? (The ending of Mk may be an exception here, and can be considered as a separate subject.)
Who exactly is talking about the proto-Mk nowadays (other than Koester)?

Here is your work (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53550). The word "Koester" does NOT appear anywhere in it.

Yet you state "each of our mainstream Synoptic theories today -- whether it is 2ST, 2GT, or Farrer -- is premised essentially on the assumption that all of the Synoptic gospels somehow emerged into the world in a single act of creation -- each put together by a single writer, it seems, an exegetical genius of some sort, locked up in a private study somewhere, and isolated from all the others. And after each of the gospels had been written down "during the first century", it had been frozen textually, more or less, somewhat miraculously perhaps?...
So what follows, I submit, is an entirely realistic and rational account of the early history of Christian gospels, based on solid historical and textual evidence. It's too bad that, for our mainstream academic scholars, much of this might come as a complete shock"

Isn't Koester a "mainstream academic scholar"? How come you never mentioned him in your paper if his ideas support your own?
You use the words: "But what I'm offering here, on the other hand, is essentially an evolutionary view of gospels' history".

It seems a bit convenient to seek to have your theory identified with him now. From the get-go, you should have informed readers that what you are offering is not novel and that there are some "mainstream scholars" who support your theory. You failed to do that.

I maintain that using him to forestall arguments I might raise is invalid.

I will discuss more on Markan Priority when I will address Vinnie's paper.

My main focus is the textual evolution of Mk _after_ the earliest edition was composed. So who exactly is talking about this at this time?
You do touch on Mark but with all due respect, I dont think its textual evolution your main focus. You provide an almost equal treatment to all of the gospels except you introduce L as the original christian proto gospel. Which branched to Mark, Matthew and Luke. And when you talk of the protestant bias, the Jewish war, Marcion and liturgical use. I find that you treat "the gospels" equally - Mark doesn't seem to achieve special treatment. Indeed, the title of your article itself is a pointer to what you cover. I do not understand why you argue otherwise.

Indeed, I read your paper anticipating that Markan Priority would be your main focus. As I noted in my OP, I came off disapointed. One of the reasons, I read and responded to it was to dispel the myth that posters of this forum do not respond to serious articles.

Hoping this is not off-putting.

Ted Hoffman
July 21, 2003, 03:29 AM
A few scholars recognize this but Yuri is right, a lot of scholars seem to want to ignore the textual instability of early Christian texts
Except Yuri doesn't say "a lot of" or even "most of" scholars.
He uses the all-inclusive "our mainstream academic scholars", not "some of our mainstream academic scholars".

But how do they express this "failure to recognize" textual instability? (wow, "instability" is a tricky word :) )

Yuri Kuchinsky
July 21, 2003, 01:27 PM
I'm offering an evolutionary view of gospels' history. I'm currently the leader in this area. (But of course my work is based to a great extent on previous research by Alfred Loisy.)

Some other scholars such as Koester also proposed something similar, but never to the same extent. In any case, nobody today knows anything about what Loisy proposed in his time.

My main priorities are as follows,

A. The textual evolution of all 4 gospels after their earliest editions were composed.

B. How the 2nd and 3rd century Church politics affected the textual development of the gospels.

C. How the Second Jewish War affected the textual development of the gospels.

Nobody today, except myself, is following up on these specific topics. Koester has done some work around my point A, but he only deals with Mk. At the same time he completely ignores the points B and C.

D. How the Syro-Latin, aka "Western" text (what I call the Peripheral text) preserves the original text of the gospels better than any other.

In modern English-language scholarship, only WL Petersen has done some work in this area, but I'm now going much further than he's ever gone.

Regards,

Yuri.

Ted Hoffman
July 22, 2003, 02:06 AM
Ok, ok Yuri. I get it.

Now, how about those credentials? ;)

keyser_soze
July 22, 2003, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by Jacob Aliet
Ok, ok Yuri. I get it.

Now, how about those credentials? ;)

Never fall for an argument from authority. Many, many groups are guilty of that particular fallacy. Let the argument stand or fall of it's own accord. Research it for yourself, and if his theory holds, then it holds....no matter his or anyone else's credentials.

Ted Hoffman
July 22, 2003, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by keyser_soze
Never fall for an argument from authority. Many, many groups are guilty of that particular fallacy. Let the argument stand or fall of it's own accord. Research it for yourself, and if his theory holds, then it holds....no matter his or anyone else's credentials.
That is not the objective. Am just curious.

Vinnie
July 22, 2003, 01:39 PM
I will discuss more on Markan Priority when I will address Vinnie's paper.

I accept Markan Priority, just not canonical Markan priority. Yuri maintains that Mt. and Lk made use of a proto-gospel, as he stated. I believe Mt and Lk used an earlier version of Mark. There were like 5 different Marks by the end of the 2d century:

Two Versions of secret Mark.
"Original Mark"
The differing Marks used by Matthew and Luke.
The redacted canonical Mark which appeared after Mt and Lk used their versions of Mark.

Actually, that seems to make six versions of Mark! But original Mark may have been the one used by Matthew whereas Luke got a hold of a more redacted version. And thats just five or six that we know about ;)

Vinine

Ted Hoffman
July 23, 2003, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Vinnie
I accept Markan Priority, just not canonical Markan priority.
Yeah, I notice you state that 2ST raises questions about the authenticity of the canonical Mark.
You know a site where I can get arguments that refute Markan priority?

Originally posted by Vinnie

Yuri maintains that Mt. and Lk made use of a proto-gospel, as he stated. I believe Mt and Lk used an earlier version of Mark. There were like 5 different Marks by the end of the 2d century:

Two Versions of secret Mark.
"Original Mark"
The differing Marks used by Matthew and Luke.
The redacted canonical Mark which appeared after Mt and Lk used their versions of Mark.

Actually, that seems to make six versions of Mark! But original Mark may have been the one used by Matthew whereas Luke got a hold of a more redacted version. And thats just five or six that we know about ;)

Vinine
What is the core/DNA of Mark - how do you identify a version of Mark - when I get a ms - how do I know its a version of Mark and not a version of Matthew or Luke - I asked Yuri a similar question above about L but he did not respond.

PS. Six versions - wow :). Could you outline the features of each of them? And perharps how you distinguish them?

Vinnie
July 24, 2003, 10:29 AM
Yeah, I notice you state that 2ST raises questions about the authenticity of the canonical Mark.

I know of no online sites but as Yuri mentioned, if you are interested in this, read something by a Griesbach hypothesis proponent.

What is the core/DNA of Mark - how do you identify a version of Mark - when I get a ms - how do I know its a version of Mark and not a version of Matthew or Luke - I asked Yuri a similar question above about L but he did not respond.

I believe that the text Matthew and Luke used (stuff defined as "triple tradition material") is similar enough to the text of canonical Mark for us to call this proto-Gospel they used, an earlier version of Mark which later evolved into canonical Mark after both Matthew and Luke used it.


Yuri might disagree here. He might not call this an earlier version of Mark, just an early proto-Gospel with some similarities to canonical Mark maybe? Both views are relatively close to one another but there would be a slight difference.

I also accept the existence of Q. Yuri believes AMtt and Luke certainly made use of sayings sources but he denies Q. He is correct that many well informed scholars deny Q. Goodcare has a case against Q and E.P. Sanders and AMrgaret Davies advocated this same "Mark without Q" position in "Studying the Synoptic Gospels." He attempts to demonstrate that Matthew knew Mark, and Luke knew Matthew and Mark. Ergo, no Q source. Though it must still be maintained that Matthew used sayings sources as well as Luke. I disagree with these scholars and find myself in a modified 2ST camp. With that being said, their arguments should not be brushed under some consensus rug. I doubt that many here would have the knowledge to even touch Sander's and Davies case against Q in SSG or Goodcares or even defend Markan priority against a well informed GH proponent. Its not called the "synoptic problem" for nothing!


PS. Six versions - wow . Could you outline the features of each of them? And perharps how you distinguish them?

Two versions were outlined in my article:

Matthew and Luke had access to a different text than canonical Mark, as my paper demonstrated.

It further maintained that Luke's copy lacked the Bethsaida section and this was most likely due to redaction. Thus Matthew and Luke had different versions of original Mark.

This is then two versions:

Canonical Mark came later, after Matt and Luke used these Marcan texts. Canonical Mark (which should need no elaboration) is a third version.

There are also two versions of secret Mark identifiable in second century literature. I don't have time to jump into secret Mark right now but I think Peter has an article on this somewhere on his site talking about the five versions of Mark. Maybe he can provide a link to it? I can come back later in the week and talk more though.

We have at least five different versions of Mark (if we call Matthew's version original Mark).

Vinine

the_cave
August 11, 2003, 04:15 PM
Not sure I'm entirely qualified to comment, and this thread is a bit dead, but I thought I would say a few things.

First, I hate multiplying gospels. What we got is what they are--anything prior is something else. That is, we should call it something else, rather than proto-So-and-So. That's the perspective I take on it, anyway.

So I wouldn't say that we really have even more than one verson of Mark. Secret Mark, sure, but that's different, which is why it's called Secret Mark. More than one Secret Mark? Maybe, who knows. But only one Mark. Anything else should be called something else.

I like Yuri's overall perspective, because it's similar to my own (!)--that is, in the end, we ultimately have multiple sources. Call it the Many Source Hypothesis (MSH)--you heard it here first.

Like many others, including Yuri, I would agree that we have sources such as M and L. I'm beginning to suspect these can be further broken up into infancy and ministry stories. I myself wouldn't call either a gospel narrative, but I could be wrong. I think they were just collections of material.

It's also clear we have a Signs Something-or-Other, which I (and others) prefer to call J. J might have included other material, about Lazarus for example. It also may have included a lot of Logos material. Or the Logos material could have been a separate source.

I think we can further discern kernels such as those that led to the resurrection stories in places like the Gospel of Peter and maybe the insertion into the Ascension of Isaiah chs. 3-4.

I also favor a separate Passion Narrative, but I'm not committed to this. I just think that John couldn't really have known about Mark (or else disregarded it, for whatever reason) without using either his material or his narrative more extensively, so there must have been a separate common source for their passion accounts. (This would also suggest a common source for Mark and John, for the material and structure that they occasionally share, an idea which I support.)

And maybe there was a Q, maybe there wasn't--maybe it was part of M, or L, who knows. The point is, there were many sources, and they all contributed to the documents we have today. Note that these documents include people like Ignatius and Barnabas and the Second Century Apologists.

And ultimately, many of these sources were oral.

I don't think we need to hypothesize earlier "versions" of gospels. I personally favor Mark as the earliest gospel, with Matthew and Luke basing their accounts on Mark, probably in that order. (And Matthew would have been influenced by L, and Luke would have been influenced by M, if you see what I mean.) And maybe there was an earlier, or separate, "gospel", or even more than one such document, but I prefer those who simply term it a proto-gospel, without labeling it with the name of one of the gospels we have. Maybe "gospel" is even misleading, since it doesn't exactly look like any of the gospels we now have. "Non-Q Sayings Sources?" "Ministry narratives?" That's what we might want to call them, anyway...

And yet, trying to reconstruct these hypothetical "gospels" seems to me to be an indeterminable endeavor. Take the ending of Mark for example--maybe Mark ended with the Centurion, sure. Except that invalidates the suggestion that Mark is a readings cycle, with the beginning of Jesus' ministry in Galilee thus corresponding with the angel's statement to the women at the tomb that Jesus will go before them to Galilee. So that's actually less evidience that Mark is a midrashic yearly cycle of readings--and, that's less of a reason for writing the Midrash in the first place. I'm not saying that the author of the "Centurion-ending gospel" couldn't have been inspired by Misrash practices, I'm just saying that I can't see evidence deciding it one way or the other, since the main criterion for such theories is mostly "See, now doesn't that sound plausible?"

Or, maybe Mark took an earlier "gospel" that ended with the Centurion, and spiffed it up into a midrashic cycle of readings. But then Mark didn't invent the gospel narrative, like some claim--someone else did. Or, maybe the original writer was Mark, and canonical Mark is the spiffed-up yearly-readings-cycle of Mark. Who knows?

Not me, that's for sure, and I see little evidence that anyone else will anytime soon. I could be wrong.

the_cave
August 11, 2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by the_cave
Or, maybe Mark took an earlier "gospel" that ended with the Centurion, and spiffed it up into a midrashic cycle of readings. But then Mark didn't invent the gospel narrative, like some claim--someone else did. Or, maybe the original writer was Mark, and canonical Mark is the spiffed-up yearly-readings-cycle of Mark. Who knows?

For that matter, there's a problem talking about things like "Mark". Take Doherty's thesis, for example--that is, the author of Mark more or less invented the first full picture of an historical Jesus (though perhaps it was inspired by prior ideas.) But which author is Doherty talking about? The author of the Centurion-ending gospel? Or does he think that Mark ended at the tomb? Does it matter? Is he simply talking about the first Midrashic author of a Jesus narrative? Was that really the author of Mark (with either ending)? Does this mean he thinks that Mark is the first gospel narrative, and that either the two-source theory or the three-source theory is correct? (It seems he must...I should ask him, come to think of it!)

This is why I think that Mark should be reserved for the name of the author of the complete gospel as we have it. Ideally it would be reserved for the name of the earliest document that bears the name--except we have no such document. All we have is the current gospel of Mark.

Yuri Kuchinsky
August 13, 2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by the_cave

I like Yuri's overall perspective, because it's similar to my own (!)--that is, in the end, we ultimately have multiple sources.


Thanks, the_cave!


Call it the Many Source Hypothesis (MSH)--you heard it here first.


Actually, it's already known as the MSH (the Multi-Stage Hypothesis, as argued by Boismard)! :)


Like many others, including Yuri, I would agree that we have sources such as M and L. I'm beginning to suspect these can be further broken up into infancy and ministry stories. I myself wouldn't call either a gospel narrative, but I could be wrong. I think they were just collections of material.

[snip]

I also favor a separate Passion Narrative, but I'm not committed to this.


Well, lots of scholars believe that the Passion Narrative was the earliest form of the original gospel. And later, more stuff was built up around that...


And maybe there was a Q, maybe there wasn't--maybe it was part of M, or L, who knows. The point is, there were many sources, and they all contributed to the documents we have today.


Seems reasonable...


And yet, trying to reconstruct these hypothetical "gospels" seems to me to be an indeterminable endeavor. Take the ending of Mark for example--maybe Mark ended with the Centurion, sure.


I also see this as an indeterminable endeavor! :)

Regards,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky
August 13, 2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by the_cave
For that matter, there's a problem talking about things like "Mark". Take Doherty's thesis, for example--that is, the author of Mark more or less invented the first full picture of an historical Jesus (though perhaps it was inspired by prior ideas.) But which author is Doherty talking about? The author of the Centurion-ending gospel? Or does he think that Mark ended at the tomb? Does it matter? Is he simply talking about the first Midrashic author of a Jesus narrative? Was that really the author of Mark (with either ending)? Does this mean he thinks that Mark is the first gospel narrative, and that either the two-source theory or the three-source theory is correct? (It seems he must...I should ask him, come to think of it!)


Well, this is definitely a weakness in Doherty's analysis IMHO. He seems to be way too closely bound with the mainstream 2 Source Hypothesis. If it fails, so I guess also his analysis. :(

I don't know, maybe he can say that he only made the 2SH his foundation because everyone (or almost everyone) accepts it, so he doesn't really need to get into the Synoptic morass to argue that Jesus didn't exist.

So perhaps he can still make some sort of a case for non-historicity even without the 2SH? Remains to be seen, though...

Best,

Yuri.

Ted Hoffman
August 15, 2003, 04:18 AM
If it fails, so I guess also his analysis.
The linchpin of Dohertys thesis is not based on Mark writing the first Gospel.

His thesis is iron clad. Argument for the best explanation - considering everything we have. As an ABE, it accounts for just about everything.

His analysis remains sound, whichever way the synoptic problem points.

Vinnie
August 17, 2003, 02:25 PM
His analysis remains sound, whichever way the synoptic problem points.

That alone would make me skeptical. Sources and their stratification and relationship to one another is one of them ost important areas of historical research. If Doherty's analysis is not based upon this type of framework then his study is inherantly flawed. But his study does take into account questions of sources.

But the problem is this.

Mack (as Doherty?) thinks mark was the first one to piece it all together.

What if we accept Matthean priority. Is it just as plausible for Matthew to have been the one to piece it all together? What evidence can be cited for Mark to hhave begun this process and can that same evidence be applied to Matthew?

And if the same evidence can be applied to any source in such a way I would be inherantly skeptical of it.

Vinine

Ted Hoffman
August 18, 2003, 12:56 AM
Look, the Gospels were written late. Thats whats important so whichever one is given priority, it doesnt really matter.

Pauline epistles, GJn, the writings of the apostilic fathers (didache, shepherd of hermas, 1 Clement etc) and a host of other early christian writings support his thesis of christ Logos.

In fact, his argument is contra the HJ - which is what the gospels present to us. Changing the sequence of their order means nothing one way or the other to his thesis.

To challenge Doherty's thesis, one needs examine what he uses to support his case.

Vinnie
August 22, 2003, 11:45 AM
Look, the Gospels were written late. Thats whats important so whichever one is given priority, it doesnt really matter.

I agree the Gospels were written "late" just not late enough for Doherty's view to have much merit. His stratification is in fact pivotal to his argument. It can be no other way.

Pauline epistles, GJn, the writings of the apostilic fathers (didache, shepherd of hermas, 1 Clement etc) and a host of other early christian writings support his thesis of christ Logos.

Aside from the Pauline epistles you have listed nothing but "late" texts. I'll counter with Q, Thomas and James for "early" sayings material to Jesus.

In fact, his argument is contra the HJ - which is what the gospels present to us. Changing the sequence of their order means nothing one way or the other to his thesis.

Since the order of the material is extremely important for determining pre-gospel material and traditions and how far back they go behind the works, I take it absolutely for granted that his take on the 2SP should be a crucial element in his case. If not his method must be inherantly flawed somehow or is tied in so tightly with the flawed notion that the texts are so late it doesn't matter. Even Dopherty's "Christ Logos" can't escape the butterfly effect and the need for stratication :p

Vinnie