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Layman
July 17, 2003, 09:53 PM
Paul's Belief in a Physical Resurrection


Many skeptics have argued that the earliest Christians believed in a solely spiritual resurrection of Jesus and, eventually, his followers. Only later, this theory maintains, did the Christian idea of the spiritual resurrection evolve into a belief in a physical resurrection. Exhibit A for such theorists, is Paul and his purported belief in a solely spiritual resurrection of Jesus and Christians. Skeptics who have argued this position include Richard Carrier and David Friedman.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/david_friedman/friedman1.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/resurrection/3d.html

However, the idea that Paul believed in a spiritual resurrection and not a physical one has rightly been rejected by the majority of scholars. Even some skeptics have rejected it. See http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/peter_kirby/tomb/paul.html.

Paul's self-identified Jewishness precludes such a conclusion. The notion that Christianity grew out of a Jewish belief in a spiritual resurrection that evolved into a belief in a bodily resurrection as Christianity became more influenced by Hellenism is a very unlikely prospect. Additionally, the language Paul uses to describe the resurrection--most notably "soma"--emphasizes the physical nature of the resurrected person. Finally, Paul's belief that Christians immediately went to be with Jesus upon their death, but still awaited a "resurrection" demonstrates that the resurrection being discussed was a physical one.

Before examining these arguments further, a point of clarification is in order. By physical resurrection I merely mean that there is some level of continuity between the body of Jesus or the dead Christian and their respective new body. I do not address how much continuity there was between old or new, or whether the new body was made out of the same stuff as the old. I will use the terms simply: a physical resurrection results in the original body missing from the grave, a spiritual resurrection has no affect on the original body.

I. Paul's Jewish Background

That Christianity originated in a Jewish context is beyond dispute. Early Christians were Jews and used Jewish scripture as their own. Friedman and Carrier completely but intentionally ignore this background and argue that because Christianity changed some parts of Judaism, that no part of Jewish belief is informative as to Christian belief. This assertion lacks merit. Indeed, it appear to be disingenuous (Carrier, for example, is quite happy to use Paul's supposed Hellenistic background to argue against a physical resurrection). There is much of Christianity that only makes sense in a Jewish context, to ignore this context altogether on so central an issue (to Christianity and to Second Temple Judaism) can only arise from fear of where such investigation would lead. In any event, the little regard that Carrier and Friedman exhibit for Paul's Jewish background is in direct contravention of the importance Paul clearly places on it. Paul is a "Hebrew of Hebrews", of the tribe of Benjamin, as to the law blameless. But Paul does more than identify his Jewishness, it pervades his letters, affects his theology, and is apparent to any informed reader. Paul time and again relies on Jewish scripture. He believes in the Prophets, in Abraham, in Adam. He counts time by reference to Jewish holidays.

Carrier again attempts to confuse the issue by arguing that, aha, even if Paul was a Jew, only the Pharisees believed in a bodily resurrection. The Sadducees and Essenes did not. This argument too appears disingenuous. Not only was the Pharisaic view of resurrection shared by the majority of Jews, but the Sadducees certainly did not believe in a spiritual resurrection. In fact, they believed in no resurrection or life after death at all. But, most important of all, Paul readily admits that he was "as to the law, a Pharisee" (Phil. 3:5). Moreover, except for the timing of Jesus' resurrection, Paul sounds like a Pharisee when he discusses the resurrection, eschatology, the mission to the Jews, and belief in his belief in angels (something else the Essenes denied). This belief in the resurrection was distinct in the first century.

In Greco-Roman thought generally, the body was thought to be the prison of the soul. Evil matter is temporal and the spirit is eternal. In Gnostic religious systems, moreover, the believer required special revelation knowledge to ascend through the dangerous celestial spheres to escape from the material universe. The god of spirits--sought by Gnostics--was not interested in the revival of dead bodies. According to their religious system, the material universe was composed of evil matter, which is contrasted to the spiritual realm. Greeks longed to be free from the confines of the body. While they did believe in the survival of the human soul after death, the notion that the body would be reunited with the soul in a physical resuscitation was foreign to their conceptual world.

The Jewish people, however, believed that God created the world. Our physical world is God's creation, and it is good. The Pharisees, in contrast to the Greco-Roman religious beliefs, vigorously affirmed the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead. The Pharisees stressed a literal resurrection of the physical body, which would be reunited with the spirit of an individual. Their worldview embraced a future restoration of God's original design for his world. The Pharisees envisioned a time of redemption in which God would realign the physical creation with the ethereal realm.

Brad H. Young, Paul, The Jewish Theologian, at 123.

Although--as discussed above--there were Jewish groups who disagreed with the Pharisees, such as the Sadducees, the basis for their disagreement was very different than that with the Greeks. The Sadducees denied that there was any life after death whatsoever for humans. The disagreement between the two sects was sharp. Pharisaic belief in the resurrection was paramount and nonnegotiable. They went so far as to teach: "The one who says the resurrection of the dead is not taught in the Torah, has no place in the world to come." (m. Sanh. 10:1).

By aligning himself with a Pharisaic background, Paul provides us with an important insight into the meaning he attaches to the term: resurrection. That is, it is a physical resurrection of the body.

II. The Term "Soma" Emphasizes the Physical

When speaking of the resurrection of Jesus or believers, Paul refers to the resurrection of the "soma." Soma is Greek for "body" and it carries the same emphasis on physicality as does its English equivalent. "The soma denotes the physical body, roughly synonymous with flesh in the neutral sense. It forms that part of man in and through which he lives acts in the world. It becomes the base of operations for sin in the unbeliever, for the Holy Spirit in the believer. Barring prior occurrence in the Parousia, the soma will die. That is the lingering effect of sin even in the believer. But it will also be resurrected. That is its ultimate end, a major proof of its worthy and necessity to the wholeness of human being, and the reason for its sanctification now." Robert H. Gundry, Soma in Biblical Theology, at 50.

A. Paul's Use of Soma Outside the Resurrection

A review of Paul's view reinforces the point made above--that it carries with it an emphasis on the physical part of humans.

1Co 5:3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.

Paul's "soma" is not present. That is, his body is not present, even though his "spirit" is with the Corinthians. The focus of the term is a physical absence.

"The meaning of absent in body is clear enough: Paul's physical body is not in Corinth but in some other place. But what does present in spirit mean? In Paul's usage, spirit more often than not refers to the Spirit of God... but it is more probable, in view of the contrast with body, that Paul is using the word in a quite popular sense, that is, psychologically rather than theologically." C.K. Barrett, The First Epistle to the Corinthians, at 123.

1Co 6:18-20 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

Paul here is speaking of sexual immorality. The Greek term for "immorality" used here is proneia, more precisely translated as "fornication" or "harlotry." Paul is speaking of how sexual sins are sins against the physical body. He also compares the body to a temple, a physical structure that houses the Holy Spirit.

1Co 7:2-5 But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband. The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

By referring to sexual relations between husband and wife, Paul is again emphasizing the physical.

1Co 9:24-27 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Paul speaks here of disciplining the body, much as we might speak of working out at the gym. Although Paul is using a reference to the body to make a point about developing ones self spiritually, he does so by emphasizing the physical conditioning of the body.

1Co 13:3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

By speaking of "burning" his "soma," Paul is clearly emphasizing the physical part of his being. The spirit and the pysche do not burn. The body does. Whether this means being burned to death as a martyr, branded as a slave, or self-immolation, the physical meaning is inescapable.

2Co 12:2-3 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows.

The term for "body" used throughout these two verse is "soma." And by Paul's differentiation of experiencing this event in the body or out of it, he is clearly referring to experiencing it physically.

Gal 6:17 From now on let no one cause trouble for me, for I bear on my body the brand-marks of Jesus.

Here, soma refers to Paul's own body, stressing the physical abuse he's suffered as a follower of Jesus. "Stigmata carries an uncompromisingly physical connotation, here with probable reference to wounds and scars...." Robert H. Gundry, Soma in Biblical Theology, at 49. Paul's reference to his own marks suggest that Jesus' body suffered as well.

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here, Paul gives us the big three: the pneuma (spirit); the psyche (soul); and the soma (body). Obviously, the three are distinct and Paul uses "soma" to refer to the physical body.

Rom 4:19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb....

Paul here refers to the story of how Abraham, though very old, came to father Isaac. The reference is clearly to Abraham's physical body, which was considered too old to father a child.

Rom 6:12-13 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Again Paul speaks of the "soma" regarding sexual sin, highlighting the physical.

Paul does use the term "soma" regarding humans in a metaphorical sense on a few occasions. However, such usages actually reinforce the physical emphasis of the term "soma."

The first usage is in the context of the Eucharist.

1Co 10:16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

1Co 11:24-25 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

The reference to Christ's body is to the physical part of his being. The body was broken by scourging and crucifixion.

The second metaphorical usage is in reference to the Christian Church as the Body of Christ.

1Co 12:12-31 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body.... And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

Paul's understanding of the Church as the Body of Christ has shaped much Christian theology. For our purposes, it is sufficient to note that although the term is used metaphorical, it is strongly related to the physical body. The parts of the church are compared to part so human anatomy--the eye, the foot, the ear. The meaning is unequivocally physical. See also Eph 4:11-12 (And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ.).

This survey is strongly reinforced by Robert H. Gundry's exhaustive study of the use of "soma" in Paul's letters. See Soma in Biblical Theology, With Emphasis on Pauline Anthropology, Robert H. Gundry. After examining the use of "soma" in Roman/Greek literature, in the LXX, in other Jewish literature, in the rest of the New Testament, and most exhaustively in Paul's letters, Gundry concludes that Paul's use of the term "soma" strongly emphasizes the physical part of man. Although Paul's anthropology is not entirely clear, and how the body, mind, and spirit relate to each other debatable, his use of the term soma "always carries a physical meaning." Gundry, at 155.

Accordingly, the very fact that Paul uses the term "soma" to explain the resurrection demonstrates that he is referring to a physical event that involves the body of the believer.

B. Paul's Use of Soma When Referring the Resurrection

With the above discussion in mind, I will proceed to discuss Paul's use of soma while referring to the resurrection.

1. 1 Corinthians 15

Perhaps the best known of Paul's statements about resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15 has been used by both sides of the debate. In the first set of verses, Paul discusses the resurrection appearances of Jesus to Peter, James, the Twelve, the 500, and to Paul. He then stresses the connection between Jesus' resurrection and that of the believers. The reason Paul is discussing these doctrines, which he stresses is what he originally taught them upon the founding of their church, is because his doctrine of the resurrection, or at least some part of it, has met skepticism in the Corinthian church.

Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

This rather remarkable context should alert us to the fact that Paul has been teaching of a physical resurrection. Paul is writing to a predominantly Greek church. If Paul was merely speaking of a non-physical resurrection (which, to a Jew, is something of a contradiction of terms), it is doubtful that he would have met with such skepticism. As discussed above, the Greeks already believed in the immortality of the human soul. Their skepticism was reserved for the Jewish belief in a physical resurrection. Yet, in this letter, Paul is clearly addressing Greek-oriented skepticism in his teaching of the resurrection. Why would such skepticism arise? Because the Corinthian church's background denied, indeed did not have any place for, a bodily resurrection. It would have had far less trouble accepting Paul's doctrine of the resurrection if that doctrine emphasized a purely spiritual phenomenon

As Craig Blomberg explains:

"At any rate, the position of some in the Corinthian church is specified in verse 12 (How can some of you say that there is no resurrection from the dead?"), and it is to this challenge that Paul responds. By denying the resurrection, the Corinthians were almost certainly not denying life after death, virtually everyone in the ancient world believed in that. Rather, they would have been disputing the Jewish and Christian doctrine of bodily resurrection and endorsing one of the more Greek forms of belief that limited the afterlife to disembodied immortality of the soul (cf. 2 Tim. 2:17-18)." 1 Corinthians, Craig Blomberg, 294-95.

1Co 15:35-38 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.

Paul again and again uses the term "soma" to describe what is resurrected. The use of this term, meant to imply the physical, establishes Paul's belief in the physical resurrection of Jesus and of Christians.

Additionally, that Greek skepticism of physical resurrection was at the heart of the problem becomes clear as Paul moves on to address another question raised by those who reject his doctrine of the resurrection--what kind of body would a "resurrected body" be? The question is not about life after death (easily accepted by Greeks as a "spiritual resurrection"), but the idea of a physical resurrection itself was absurd to the questioner. Again, the fact that Paul is having to argue what kind of "soma" was raised strongly suggests that he has previously taught, and currently defending, the doctrine of a physical resurrection.

1Co 15:39-49 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, "The first man Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

First, Paul uses "soma" to throughout to describe the resurrected body.

Second, Paul uses the analogy of a seed, noting that it is "sown" a natural body but raised a spiritual body. This strongly suggests continuity between the first body and the new body, just as a seed becomes a plan, the old body becomes the new body. The obvious differences between the seed and the plan are irrelevant, as it is the continuity that we are concerned with.

It is significant that Talmudic literature uses the same analogy of a seed to explain the connection between the old body and the new one following the resurrection. According to the Talmud, Rabbi Meier used the metaphor of a grain of wheat sown into the ground but raised a blossoming flower: "If a kernel fo wheat is buried naked and will sprout forth in many robes, how much more so the righteous." (b. Sanh. 90b). Not only does this highlight Paul's Jewishness, it further suggests that Paul was discussing--as was Rabbi Meier--a physical resurrection.

"[Paul] asserts the somatic nature of the resurrection by an appeal to analogies drawn from nature: grains of wheat; types of animals; celestial bodies. The substance of the argument is that in each instance God is able to produce a new order of life (resurrection) but does so in such a way that a correlation to somatic existence is maintained. The phrase translated as "bare kernel in the RSV is particularly interesting and has an important parallel in Jewish rabbinic literature (b. Sanh. 90b).... [H]is use of the seed analogy in 1 Corinthians 15:35-54 allows for both continuity and discontinuity between the present mortal body and the resurrected body of the believer." L.J. Kreitzer, Body, in Dictionary of Paul and His Letters, eds. Gerald Hawthorne, et al., at 74-75.

Third, although many have argued that the reference to a "spiritual body" implies a spiritual resurrection, this argument is without merit. Although Paul speaks of a "spiritual" body and a "natural" body, what is often overlooked is that both phrases are talking about the same thing-the "soma". The terms "spiritual" and "natural" do not change this. They are modifiers differentiating the nature of the body before and after, but in no way implying that one is physical and the other is not. According to Paul, the current body is a natural body. But, after the resurrection, it will be a spiritual body. In both cases, it remains a body (soma). The difference is not between physical and nonphysical, but between soulish and spiritual. Between, as the verses begins, corruptible and incorruptible.

It is anachronistic to conclude that the use of the term "spiritual" to modify the term "body" renders the body immaterial or nonphysical. The body is sown (dies) as a soma pyschikon but is raised as a soma pneumatikon. That Paul does not intend pyschikon to mean, simply, physical, is clear.

In 1 Cor. 2:14-15, Paul distinguishes between the "pyschikos" person and the "pneumatikos" person. The difference is not between a physical and a nonphysical person. Rather, it is between the "natural" man and the "spiritual" man. The difference is not materiality, but acceptance of the workings of the spirit of God. The natural man is common and unable to understand the things of God. The spiritual man, while a physical being, is able to understand the things of God.

But what really clinches the understanding that calling the soma "spiritual" does not imply nonphysicality is Paul's use of the term "pneumatikoi" in 1 Corinthians 10.

1Co 10:1-5 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

Paul speaks of the Israelites following Moses in the wilderness as eating "spiritual" food," drinking "spiritual" drink, and getting the drink from a "spiritual" rock. 1 Cor. 10:3-4. This drink and food was, of course, material, but it was also spiritual because its source was God. ("for they were drinking from a spiritual rock, which followed them; and the rock was Christ"). Paul uses the word similarly here.

"In v. 3 Paul calls the manna 'spiritual' good, by which he probably means food miraculously provided by the Spirit of God, not food with a heavenly taste or texture. Nor indeed was the water spiritual in character. It was, rather, spiritually provided just as the rock was spiritually enabled to give water." Ben Witherington, Conflict and Community in Corinth, at 219.

So too with our bodies. Our present bodies come from the earth and are ruled by fleshly passions, but our future bodies will be a result of the working of the Spirit of God. Thus, they will be spiritual bodies.

1Co 15:50-54 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, Death is Swallowed up in victory.

What many often overlook is that the phrase "I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" goes on to make clear that there is a physical resurrection and continuity between the physical body before and after death ("for this perishable must put on the imperishable"). The old body "puts on" the new body. The mortal "puts on" immortality. The difference here is not between physical and nonphysical, but between the nature of the old body and the nature of the new one.

The degree to which he thought of 'transformation', rather than either disembodiment or resuscitation, can be seen in his discussion of 'putting on' immortality. Thinking of those who would still be alive when the Lord returned, he wrote that the 'perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality'. This would fulfill the Scripture, 'Death is swallowed up in victory.' (1 Cor. 15:53 f.). He used the same imagery in 2 Corinthians 5. The living are in an 'earthly tent', and they wish not to be 'unclothed', but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life' (1 Cor. 5:4). The metaphor changes from 'tent' to 'clothing', but the meaning is nevertheless clear. Immortality is 'put on' and replaces mortality. Paul was not thinking of an interior soul which escapes its mortal shell and floats free, nor of new life being breathed into the same body, but again of transformation, achieved by covering mortality with immortality, which then 'swallows' it.

E.P. Sanders, Paul, at 30.

Furthermore, it is naive to take the reference to "flesh and blood" to mean, merely, physicality or materiality.

Why then does he say 'flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom'? Ever since the second century doubters have used this clause to question whether Paul really believed in the resurrection of the body. In fact, the second half of verse 50 already explains, in Hebraic parallelism with the first half, more or less what he means, as Paul's regular use of 'flesh' would indicate: 'flesh and blood' is a way of referring to ordinary, corruptible, decaying human existence. It does not simply mean, as it has so often been taken to mean, 'physical humanity' in the normal modern sense, but 'the present physical humanity (as opposed to the future), which is subject to decay and death.' The referent of the phrase is not the presently dead but the presently living, who need not to be raised but to be changed; and this brings us back to the dual focus of verses 53 and 54. Both categories of humans need to acquire the new, transformed type of body.

N.T. Wright, The Resurrection of the Son of God, at 359.

See also Craig Blomberg, 1 Corinthians, at 316 ("'Flesh and blood' in verse 50 was a stock idiom in Jewish circles for a 'mere mortal' and does not contradict what Paul has already stressed, that resurrection experience is a bodily on."); Pheme Perkins, Resurrection: New Testament Witness and Contemporary Reflection, at 306 (describing "flesh and blood" as "a Semitic expression for human being (as in Gal. 1:16). It often appears in contexts that stress creatureliness and mortality").

Another explanation is offered by C.K. Barrett:

The Semitic word-pair 'flesh and blood' is 'only applied to living persons; the words flesh as well as blood exclude an application of the word-pair to the dead.' In the parallel line, corruption is used as an abstract noun instead of a concrete, for 'corpses in decomposition.' Dr. Jeremias sums up: 'The two lines of verse 50 are contrasting men of flesh and blood on the one hand, and corpses in decomposition on the other. In other words, the first line refers to those who are alive at the parousia, the second line to those who died before the parousia. The parallelism is thus not synonymous, but synthetic and the meaning of verse 50 is: neither the living nor the dead can take part in the Kingdom of God--as they are.' C.K. Barrett, The First Epistle to the Corinthians, at 379.

In any event, the term "flesh and blood" does not preclude continuity between the old and new bodies.

2. Philippians 3

Phil. 3:20-21 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Both times Paul again uses soma to refer to body, the same as he does for the present bodies of those to whom he writes. This body will be "transformed" into an improved, incorruptible body. One that is animated by the spirit of God. The Greek term that Paul uses for "transformed" is "metaschematizo." Just as in English, it emphasizes the continuity between the two states. For example, he same term is used by Paul in 2 Cor. 11:14 when speaking of how Satan "transforms" himself into an angel of light (Darby and KJV translations, others translate the same term as "disguises).

Just as with the seed analogy, the old is transformed into the new. There is radical change from before to after, but no lack of continuity. The seed becomes the plan. The dead body becomes the new body.

3. Romans 8

Rom. 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. If the Messiah is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised the Messiah from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Again Paul use soma here. Jesus will give life to the mortal soma, not end it so that his followers can be freed into a nonphysical existence. Again Paul is speaking of a change to the existing body. And the reason it becomes spiritual is because of the change brought about by the spirit of God. The "body" that will be raised is our current "mortal body." The raising of our "mortal body" is linked to the raising of Jesus' own body, indicating a parallel of bodily resurrection between what happened to Jesus and what happens to us.

Verses 9-10 speaks to the present: "But you are not in the flesh, you are in the spirit. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness."

Note all the references to the present tense. Christians are in the spirit now. Their spirits are alive because of Jesus. But, their bodies are dead, despite that.

Contrast that with verse 11: "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you."

Paul shifts tenses and notes that, even though we currently have "dead" bodies, the resurrection of Jesus guarantees that we will have new mortal bodies, infused with his Spirit. Though Christians still have a dead/mortal body despite the indwelling of the spirit, we will have a new life brought into our mortal bodies at the resurrection.

4. Summary

After reviewing Paul's letters, E.P. Sanders described succinctly Paul's views of resurrection:

Paul, that is, thought of the resurrected Jesus neither as a corpse which had regained the ability to breathe and walk nor as a ghost. He regarded Jesus as 'first fruits' of the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:20) and thought that all Christians would become like him. He denied that the resurrected body would be the 'natural' body, but maintained that it would be a 'spiritual' body (1 Cor. 15:44-6). 'Not a natural body' excludes a walking corpse, while 'spiritual body' excludes a ghost (which would be called in Greek simply a 'spirit', pneuma). Positively, there would be continuity between the ordinary and the resurrected person, as there was in the case of Jesus. To express this, Paul used the simile of a seed, which, when planted, is in one form, but when grown, in another (1 Cor. 15:36-38).

E.P. Sanders, Paul, at 29.

III. Paul's Belief that the Believer's Spirit Immediately Departs to be with Jesus Demonstrates His Belief in a Bodily Resurrection

Paul's belief in an intermediate state between death and the resurrection precludes his belief in a nonmaterial resurrection. When Paul speaks of the resurrection, he is clearly envisioning a future event. It is not something that happens to a person when he or she dies. It is a specific point in the future that applies generally, to all who are dead and who are still living. However, Paul also believed that immediately upon the death of a Christian, that person went to be with Jesus. This is made most clear when he considers his own position as he if facing death.

Phi 1:21-24:

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Paul reiterates this concept when discussing Christians in general.

2Co 5:6-8 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight--we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

E.P. Sanders explains the two different doctrines, and their sequence, concisely:

Conceptually, this is different from the expectation of the transformation or resurrection of all believers at the coming of the Lord.... It envisages the ascent of each person's soul at death, rather than the transformation of the entire group of believers, whether living or dead, at Christ's return. Without posing these two conceptions as alternatives, Paul simply accepted them both. If he died, he would immediately be with Christ; at the end the Lord would return and bring his own, in a transformed state, to be with him.

Paul, at 31-32.

If all Paul means by 'resurrection' is the escape of the spirit to be with God, then how can he envision this as happening immediately upon the death of the believers and also at a definite future event--the final judgment? Obviously, he cannot. The only solution is that Paul believes that the final resurrection is distinct from the intermediate state of spiritual life after death. In other words, the resurrection cannot be merely a spiritual occurrence. That has already occurred. The resurrection, therefore, is a bodily one.

In sum, a review of Paul's views on the body, the resurrection, and the intermediate state after death reveals that when he discussing the resurrection of Christians, as well as that of Jesus, he means a bodily resurrection.

Vorkosigan
July 17, 2003, 10:03 PM
Excellent work! Lots of very good points caused me much thinking. A pleasure to read. It deserves a long response. Hopefully later today or tomorrow I can dig up the time.

Vorkosigan

mark9950
July 17, 2003, 11:22 PM
but something is missing that when our body dies we rot and what is left is bones,unless we turn into a adipocere soap mummy.

http://adipocere.homestead.com/index.html

I guess paul never realized that not all people turn to dust after they are buried.

Ted Hoffman
July 18, 2003, 02:19 AM
I. Paul's Jewish Background
This argument can only stand if it can be proved that Paul's theosophy lacked any Hellenistic influences.
Otherwise this argument has no value. People become influenced and "desert" their backgrounds.
Pauls Corinthians quotation can be an indication of exactly the fact that he had "abandoned" his background (whatever it was):

I Corinthians 13:8-11
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child.
Paul's Gnostic leanings simply can't be overemphasized. Indeed, to deny any Hellenistic influence on the minds of some of the Jews might be tantamount to denying history and socio-cultural influences.

A. Paul's Use of Soma Outside the Resurrection
I can smell a false dichotomy brewing...

B. Paul's Use of Soma When Referring the Resurrection

Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

This rather remarkable context should alert us to the fact that Paul has been teaching of a physical resurrection.
Perharps it should, but it doesn't. He does not mention anything physical.

If Paul was merely speaking of a non-physical resurrection (which, to a Jew, is something of a contradiction of terms), it is doubtful that he would have met with such skepticism.
Resurrection, of any kind, would meet skepticism. Can you demonstrate that there are other "Jewish" resurrections that did not meet skepticism?
If you cannot, then you cannot proceed to bifurcate the resurrection modes and argue that it was only doubted because it was physical. You will have to demonstrate that one mode (the spiritual one) was accepted and the other rejected.

Either way, belief in physical dying and resurrecting saviour gods was common and the deities had to assume a physical form in order to suffer and die for their followers. The world was divided into layers and the gods could only die in the lower, and more physical layers.

This is what Paul believed.

What this means is that believing in a physical resurrection does not entail that Paul believed in a historical Jesus. Or that the resurrection took place anywhere in Palestine/Israel. Indeed Paul fails to mention any location on earth where Jesus lived, was born, or died. And he does not mention whether Christ had a mother and father. Indeed, everything he says about Jesus, he has got from scriptural revelation. Not from any eyewitness of anything.

Either way, Its important to note the following facts:

1. Nobody positively confirmed that Jesus had died.
2. Nobody saw Jesus rise from the dead.

All that we have are beliefs, beliefs and beliefs.

What is your bigger objective Layman?

Steven Carr
July 18, 2003, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by Layman

"At any rate, the position of some in the Corinthian church is specified in verse 12 (How can some of you say that there is no resurrection from the dead?"), and it is to this challenge that Paul responds. By denying the resurrection, the Corinthians were almost certainly not denying life after death, virtually everyone in the ancient world believed in that. Rather, they would have been disputing the Jewish and Christian doctrine of bodily resurrection and endorsing one of the more Greek forms of belief that limited the afterlife to disembodied immortality of the soul (cf. 2 Tim. 2:17-18)." 1 Corinthians, Craig Blomberg, 294-95.



This might be true, but it means that these Christians could not possibly have heard the Gospel resurrection stories, which emphasise the tangible nature of Jesus's resurrected body.

Not even Paul appeals to any experience anybody has had of seeing or touching a resurrected body. He works entirely from theological principles, discussing it in the abstract, as though there had been no practical experience.



1Co 15:35-38 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.


Second, Paul uses the analogy of a seed, noting that it is "sown" a natural body but raised a spiritual body. This strongly suggests continuity between the first body and the new body, just as a seed becomes a plan, the old body becomes the new body.




Nonsense! Pure apologetics on your part. It srongly suggests DIScontinuity.

Paul stated clearly, in black and white, that you do not sow the body which is to be.

How much more clearly can Paul state that the body which came out of the ground was NOT the body which went into the ground, that the resurrected body was not flesh and blood, that the original body was just plain dead, and that a new body had been created?

BTW, did Paul really think that the body of Jesus before the death (the body which walked on water, was transfigured and belonged to a divinity) was NOT a 'spiritual body' , using your definition?

I quote you 'Our present bodies come from the earth and are ruled by fleshly passions, but our future bodies will be a result of the working of the Spirit of God. Thus, they will be spiritual bodies.'

Did Paul think Jesus's body before resurrection came from the earth and was ruled by fleshly passions?



I will use the terms simply: a physical resurrection results in the original body missing from the grave, a spiritual resurrection has no affect on the original body.



A false dichotomy. Nobody thinks that Paul claimed that the resurrected body of Jesus was a protoplasmic blob. Paul probably meant by a physical resurrection, that the resurrected body was made out of some ethereal, spiritual substance, such as angels and heavenly bodies are made out of. Paul cannot explain how that can be, but that is Paul's problem , not mine.

Steven Carr
July 18, 2003, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by Jacob Aliet

Resurrection, of any kind, would meet skepticism. Can you demonstrate that there are other "Jewish" resurrections that did not meet skepticism?
If you cannot, then you cannot proceed to bifurcate the resurrection modes and argue that it was only doubted because it was physical. You will have to demonstrate that one mode (the spiritual one) was accepted and the other rejected.



Remember, these are CHRISTIANS who were doubting a physical resurrection (to use Layman's scenario). Christians who had apparently been convinced by the stories of the disciples eating meals with Jesus, touching him, being told specifically by Jesus that he was not a ghost (Jesus being apparently unaware that Jews thought a dsembodied life after death was a contradiction in terms)

Steven Carr
July 18, 2003, 03:10 AM
It seems to me that the Corinthians are doubting the resurrection, because it was known that the body of Jesus was still in the grave, and Paul is trying to get around this.

Paul is explaining that Jesus was still resurrected, although his body was rotting. There are TWO bodies, you see, and Paul is saying that the rotting body was just a seed, the natural body. What was resurrected was the glorious, spiritual body, that God had created.

'If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body', says Paul, a desperate fix of the problem that the natural body of Jesus could still be found.....

Vorkosigan
July 18, 2003, 03:10 AM
What article of Carrier's are you citing, Layman?


Vorkosigan

CJD
July 18, 2003, 08:42 AM
A few nits, Jacob Aliet:

This argument can only stand if it can be proved that Paul's theosophy lacked any Hellenistic influences.
Otherwise this argument has no value. People become influenced and "desert" their backgrounds.


Nowhere was it argued that Paul lived or thought in a vacuum. To deny this, as you rightly quipped, would be to deny "history and socio-cultural influences." But this was not done. So, we'll leave it at that. You seem to be treating the argument in an "all-or-nothing" fashion. So what if Paul was influenced by Hellenism? To deny his ability to critically pick and form his own opinions of both the social and intellectual patterns of his day is tantamount to flattening an actual human being into whatever you want him to be.

Sure, in some things he conformed. In other things he was provacative and critical. Sometimes he even seemed to chart his own course. Further, to suggest that "Paul's Gnostic leanings simply can't be overemphasized" is first and foremost anachronistic. Why not leave-off "gnostic"? If you know better, then your motivations become suspect. "Paul's hellenistic leanings . . ." would be more accurate. But the statement would still be wrong. Just about anything we come up with can be "overemphasized."

I think Paul is best understood as an independent thinker, yet located in his surrounding world (cf. Edwin Judge, "St. Paul and Socrates," Interchange 14 (1973): 110ff).

Perharps it should, but it doesn't. He does not mention anything physical.

Um, because it was assumed.

Resurrection, of any kind, would meet skepticism. Can you demonstrate that there are other "Jewish" resurrections that did not meet skepticism?

Was this not already mentioned above with reference to the Pharisees and Saducees/Essenes? At the risk of oversimplification, if hellenists would have deemed the concept of a fleshly resurrection preposterous (and the history of philosophy at least shows this), why should we be surprised at the fact that Greek converts to Christianity were having trouble with this doctrine?

If you cannot, then you cannot proceed to bifurcate the resurrection modes and argue that it was only doubted because it was physical. You will have to demonstrate that one mode (the spiritual one) was accepted and the other rejected.

The fact that it was doubted is not the lynchpin of the argument (unless I missed something). The lynchpin is a combination of Paul's usage of the word soma, as well as his Pharisaic background.

Either way, belief in physical dying and resurrecting saviour gods was common and the deities had to assume a physical form in order to suffer and die for their followers.

One could easily see, then, how the gospel proper is a clear polemic against the other myths. Commonality never equals reliance, nor does prevenience. It is just as plausible to suggest the opposite—that the various "pretenders" at different times touch on something True (by virtue of being fashioned in God's image, etc.). Funny that this particular myth has captured the intellect for much of the history of the civilised world.

What this means is that believing in a physical resurrection does not entail that Paul believed in a historical Jesus.

:confused: Unless, of course, he thought that that person was Jesus of Nazareth. The simple belief does not entail anything. But the simple message of Paul hinged on an actual person. Was Paul really saying much if his retort to Kaisar Kyrios was Iesous [dokeus] Kyrios? The burden of proof is far more heavy for the one who would believe such a thing.

Either way, Its important to note the following facts:

1. Nobody positively confirmed that Jesus had died.
2. Nobody saw Jesus rise from the dead.

Actually, it is irrelevant to the topic at hand, since the contention is over what the extant epistles say regarding the resurrection. I think now is the time to concede or show textually why it is not the case (that Paul believed in a physical resurrection).

Regards,

CJD

Steven Carr
July 18, 2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by CJD
Was this not already mentioned above with reference to the Pharisees and Saducees/Essenes? At the risk of oversimplification, if hellenists would have deemed the concept of a fleshly resurrection preposterous (and the history of philosophy at least shows this), why should we be surprised at the fact that Greek converts to Christianity were having trouble with this doctrine?




What is with this 'fleshly' resurrection?

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

If Greek converts to Christianity were having trouble with this doctrine, what had enticed them to convert? Clearly, Paul is having to teach them that there is NOT a physical, fleshly resurrection, as this belief is what was confusing them.

As an aside,
In another thread, Paul Baxter took some of Paul's Epistles and pointed out how their readers would have picked up all the references to Daniel and Isaiah, and the Assumption of Moses etc.

Now we learn that these readers were so Greek that they had no idea of Jewish concepts and beliefs..... Christians always argue 2 ways , if possible.....



Actually, it is irrelevant to the topic at hand, since the contention is over what the extant epistles say regarding the resurrection. I think now is the time to concede or show textually why it is not the case (that Paul believed in a physical resurrection).



47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

Here Paul flat out denies that the resurrected Jesus was made of the same stuff as we are.

45 it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit.

What would you give to have one verse in 1 Cor. 15 which said the resurrected Jesus was not spiritual, not made of the stuff of Heaven, made of flesh etc? Just one verse....

Ted Hoffman
July 18, 2003, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Vorkosigan
What article of Carrier's are you citing, Layman?
Vorkosigan
For each case also, Layman needs to state the bible translation that he is using.
There are translations that are engineered to weed out any "mythical" connotations that can be gleaned out of the books.
Layman wrote:
When Paul speaks of the resurrection, he is clearly envisioning a future event. It is not something that happens to a person when he or she dies. It is a specific point in the future that applies generally, to all who are dead and who are still living.
This is incorrect. Paul speaks of Christ as a present force. And of the resurrection as something that can be experienced through faith. He says in Collosians that (some) people were buried (and NOT entombed - and this has HUGE implications) with christ and have also ressurected with christ .

Colossians 2:12:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

To Paul, whether or not christ resurrected, whether or not the people resurrected with him was/is all a matter of faith (in God - not in Jesus).

CJD
July 18, 2003, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Steven Carr
This might be true, but it means that these Christians could not possibly have heard the Gospel resurrection stories, which emphasise the tangible nature of Jesus's resurrected body.

What about the second-century Gnostics? They certainly heard the stories, and, being unable to critically amputate certain hellenistic commitments, fell woefully short in their reconstruction of the gospel.

Not even Paul appeals to any experience anybody has had of seeing or touching a resurrected body. He works entirely from theological principles, discussing it in the abstract, as though there had been no practical experience.

I'm not sure I follow you, Steven. The time frame for Paul's story would not have allowed his interaction with a resurrected body. If you are referring to his interactions with other apostles who would have supposedly seen and touched Jesus' resurrected body, then what kind of appeal did you have in mind?

Nonsense! Pure apologetics on your part. It srongly suggests DIScontinuity.

Paul stated clearly, in black and white, that you do not sow the body which is to be.

How much more clearly can Paul state that the body which came out of the ground was NOT the body which went into the ground, that the resurrected body was not flesh and blood, that the original body was just plain dead, and that a new body had been created?

While failing to see what the big deal is, couldn't the seed imagery connote both discontinuity and continuity? And if total discontituity, how does this undermine Layman's argument? The fact remains that the resurrection, as understood by Paul, is physical. The new flesh, while completely different in many ways than the old, is nonetheless spoken of as "flesh" (cf. 1 Cor. 15:39ff.).

BTW, did Paul really think that the body of Jesus before the death (the body which walked on water, was transfigured and belonged to a divinity) was NOT a 'spiritual body' , using your definition?

I quote you 'Our present bodies come from the earth and are ruled by fleshly passions, but our future bodies will be a result of the working of the Spirit of God. Thus, they will be spiritual bodies.'

Did Paul think Jesus's body before resurrection came from the earth and was ruled by fleshly passions?

Now, this is the lynchpin of Paul's gospel. Jesus was a person that came in the flesh, and was NOT ruled by sinful desires. For Paul, therein lies the exaltation of Christ just as the resurrection is proof of that exaltation. Accordingly, you can't have a physical resurrection without a physical victory where the first man failed (so Paul).

Paul probably meant by a physical resurrection, that the resurrected body was made out of some ethereal, spiritual substance, such as angels and heavenly bodies are made out of. Paul cannot explain how that can be, but that is Paul's problem, not mine.

The point is not the supposed false dichotomy. The point is whether or not their was a rotted, dead Jesus in a grave somewhere outside Jerusalem. Jews were largely materialists. "Spiritual substance" does not entail "ethereal" in this sense. Even "God is spirit" in the Tanak does not mean "God is a vapor." I am even willing to bet that if Paul were alive today, he would say that given the right scientific instruments (and with God's approval) we could view the physical location of God's throne room. Jesus' resurrection body, for Paul, was not some wispy floating figure. He was a tangible reality that was the first of many to come. Without this, you evacuate the entire meaning of Paul's writings on the future resurrection.

There are TWO bodies, you see, and Paul is saying that the rotting body was just a seed, the natural body. What was resurrected was the glorious, spiritual body, that God had created.

I think this is close, but wrong about there being two bodies. The rotting body was just a seed, but that seed is wholly corruptible so that the resurrected body replaces it entirely. That is, the two never exist at once. Death for the seed is annihilation. Or maybe herein lies the continuity between the seed and the plant. Whatever physical remnants of the body are left at the time of the resurrection, they will be "caught up" and transformed into the new body?

For Jesus, however, we must recognize that the bible as a whole guards his resurrection. For example, it was taught that the Messiah's body would not see decay. But if Jesus died, even for as short amount of time as the gospels indicate, then there still would have been decay, no matter how small. On the other hand, the various authors of Scripture never claimed scientific pedantry, so I am willing to overlook all that, etc., etc.

'If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body', says Paul, a desperate fix of the problem that the natural body of Jesus could still be found.....

The conditional contrast here is not between material and non-material (as I alluded to above). The contrast here is both practical and theological. Given that Paul believed all animals were enlivened by the soul (psuchikos soma, 1 Cor. 15:44), so, too, must the material resurrected body be enlivened by the Spirit. The soul, which prevents all animals from being carcasses, will be replaced in those who are resurrected in Christ by the Spirit. Hence, "the last Adam became a life-giving spirit" (15:45). It is a contrast in quality—therein lies the discontinuity.

Simply put, Paul is arguing that the body before it is resurrected suffers want, while afterwards, being quickened by a much greater Spirit, will need nothing that it formerly needed. It seems to me that 15:44 does not even have the change of bodily "substance" in mind.

Regards,

CJD

* edited to add: Steven, we cross-posted. Suffice to say that you suffer from the false dichotomy. See above. "Heavenly" does not equal "wispy" or "vaporous."

Layman
July 18, 2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Steven Carr
This might be true, but it means that these Christians could not possibly have heard the Gospel resurrection stories, which emphasise the tangible nature of Jesus's resurrected body.

Not at all. Their main objection seems to be about the resurrection of Christians, not of Jesus. Paul refers back to the resurrection of Jesus to emphasize the physical nature of the resurrection. Indeed, Paul explicitly refers back to his teachings about Jesus to stress the physicality of the resurrection.

1 Cor. 15:11-17 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Of course, it's quite possible that that they had heard the gospel stories but put their own gnostic gloss on them--as later actual gnostics were to do. Or, even as Muslism, aware of gospel stories, put their own spin on them. You assume way too much. But it appears that they simply did not make take the Gospel stories as examples of what would happen, or had happened to them.

Not even Paul appeals to any experience anybody has had of seeing or touching a resurrected body. He works entirely from theological principles, discussing it in the abstract, as though there had been no practical experience.

Well, there had been no practical experience with the resurrection of Christians. But as discussed above, Paul refers to what he taught them about Jesus having been raised from the dead and makes it quite clear that because of those teachings, their doubts about a general resurrection are misplaced.


Nonsense! Pure apologetics on your part. It srongly suggests DIScontinuity.

Actually, nothing but unwarranted skepticism for its own sake on your part.

Paul stated clearly, in black and white, that you do not sow the body which is to be.

Where?

How much more clearly can Paul state that the body which came out of the ground was NOT the body which went into the ground, that the resurrected body was not flesh and blood, that the original body was just plain dead, and that a new body had been created?

Paul actually is very clear that the body which is sown is raised transformed. Heck, the entire analogy of the seed falls apart if there is no continuinty. What the seed analogy stresses is continuity with radical transformation. Does a see lay rotting in the ground wants the rose has bloomed? Of course not, the seed has become the rose.

And Paul himself is clear that he is discussing the same body of the Christian pre and post resurrection:

1 Cor. 15: 42-44 It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; itis sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Throughout Paul is discussing something (it) that is sown, but then is raised. It is sown a particular way, but it will be raised another way. It's the same thing being sown that is raised, but radically transformed.

Besides, you ignored that Paul is here using a Pharsiac analogy for bodily resurrection:

It is significant that Talmudic literature uses the same analogy of a seed to explain the connection between the old body and the new one following the resurrection. According to the Talmud, Rabbi Meier used the metaphor of a grain of wheat sown into the ground but raised a blossoming flower: "If a kernel fo wheat is buried naked and will sprout forth in many robes, how much more so the righteous." (b. Sanh. 90b). Not only does this highlight Paul's Jewishness, it further suggests that Paul was discussing--as was Rabbi Meier--a physical resurrection.

BTW, did Paul really think that the body of Jesus before the death (the body which walked on water, was transfigured and belonged to a divinity) was NOT a 'spiritual body' , using your definition?

Well, that's pretty much irrelevant since Paul spends most of Corinthians 15 talking about the bodies of Christians, not the body of Jesus. Paul is quite clear about the continuity but transformation of the bodies of ordinary believers. He is quite clear that they are ordinary bodies before hand and gloried bodies afterwards.

As for Jesus, although Paul refereneces his teachings about Jesus, he does not repeat them in any detail. The most we can tell is that Paul also believed that Jesus' resurrection also involved continuity and physicality.

I quote you 'Our present bodies come from the earth and are ruled by fleshly passions, but our future bodies will be a result of the working of the Spirit of God. Thus, they will be spiritual bodies.'

Did Paul think Jesus's body before resurrection came from the earth and was ruled by fleshly passions?

Again, irrelevant. By "our" Paul is speaking of Christians, not of Jesus.

But, if I had to reconstruct Paul's thoughts on the subject I'd probably tentatively conclude that Paul believed that Jesus was a spiritual man, as he uses that term in 1 Cor. 2:14-15, but that he had a natural body that was transformed into a spiritual body upon his resurrection. Of course, being the Messiah, Jesus' faith and God's attention to him would have allowed his natural body to do all sorts of things normal bodies could not. Remember, even Peter walked on water, even though he still resided in his old, natural body.

A false dichotomy. Nobody thinks that Paul claimed that the resurrected body of Jesus was a protoplasmic blob. Paul probably meant by a physical resurrection, that the resurrected body was made out of some ethereal, spiritual substance, such as angels and heavenly bodies are made out of. Paul cannot explain how that can be, but that is Paul's problem , not mine.

Actually, your objection is a false dichotomy. Even if the new body was "some ethereal, spiritual substance" that does not preclude continuity with the old. Remember, Paul uses the term "transformed" to describe what happens to the old body. So it is quite possible that the old natureal body was "transformed" into your substance.

Of course, if that is what Paul meant he probably would not have used the term "soma" at all, since it stresses the physical part of humanity.

Jews did not believe that "heavenly bodies" were immortal spiritual bodies. Indeed, Paul is quite clear that heavenly bodies are physical objects. And he and other Jews believed that those physical objects would be displaced at the end of time.


You fail to explain how Paul could believe that the spirit's believer immediately departs to be with Jesus, but the resurrection occurs later.

You fail to explain how Paul can speak of the "transformation" of the old body if he merely means a spiritual resurrection (or, a replacement by some other kind of spiritual substance).

You completely ingore Romans 8, which makes it clear that God will give "life to your mortal bodies" at the resurrection.

You also ignore the use of "soma" to emphasize the physical.

Layman
July 18, 2003, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Vorkosigan
What article of Carrier's are you citing, Layman?


Vorkosigan

It's the second link. Its part of Carrier's "why I don't buy the resurrection" article.

Steven Carr
July 18, 2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by CJD
What about the second-century Gnostics? They certainly heard the stories, and, being unable to critically amputate certain hellenistic commitments, fell woefully short in their reconstruction of the gospel.


Are you saying the first-century Christian Corinthians had the same problem?



I'm not sure I follow you, Steven. The time frame for Paul's story would not have allowed his interaction with a resurrected body.



So how did Paul know what a resurrected body was like? Was he just guessing?




If you are referring to his interactions with other apostles who would have supposedly seen and touched Jesus' resurrected body, then what kind of appeal did you have in mind?



Touching Jesus would have been proof that Jesus was tangible, yet Paul makes no appeal to Jesus bing touched, or Jesus eating.

But as you point out, when Paul wrote, he had heard of no experiences of a resurrected body to draw upon.






While failing to see what the big deal is, couldn't the seed imagery connote both discontinuity and continuity? And if total discontituity, how does this undermine Layman's argument? The fact remains that the resurrection, as understood by Paul, is physical. The new flesh, while completely different in many ways than the old, is nonetheless spoken of as "flesh" (cf. 1 Cor. 15:39ff.).



1 Corinthians 15:38-39
But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

Paul is simply pointing out that we would expect a resurrected body NOT to have the flesh of a mortal body. This contradicts the Gospel idea that the body which went in the ground is the body which came out.

Indeed he goes on to imply that heavenly bodies do not have the same flesh as man, just as man does not have the same flesh as birds.




Now, this is the lynchpin of Paul's gospel. Jesus was a person that came in the flesh, and was NOT ruled by sinful desires. For Paul, therein lies the exaltation of Christ just as the resurrection is proof of that exaltation. Accordingly, you can't have a physical resurrection without a physical victory where the first man failed (so Paul).



I don't understand your point here. You claim Paul believed that a spiritual body is one not ruled by sinful desires.

Therefore, you believe Paul said Jesus had a spiritual body BEFORE the resurrection. This ruins the idea that Paul was simply talking about a transformation from a fleshly body ruled by sinful desires to a fleshly body not ruled by sinful desires.

There was no such transformation in the case of Jesus, so Paul must have been talking about a different transformation - one from a fleshly body to a spiritual body, not made of the dust of the earth.


I think this is close, but wrong about there being two bodies. The rotting body was just a seed, but that seed is wholly corruptible so that the resurrected body replaces it entirely. That is, the two never exist at once. Death for the seed is annihilation.



And this runs totally contrary to the Gospel claim that the physical body was not annihalated at all, but got up and walked around.

And you are stretching Paul's analogy too far. When a farmer sows, plants come up, but there would still have been ungerminated seeds lying around. Was Paul so scientifically educated to count plants and seeds, work out that some had germinated and some not?

Or would he just have looked at the seemingly dead seeds, the plants, and used an analogy of a seed having to die before God creates a plant's body? Paul would no more have been fazed by seeing the dead seed of Jesus's body, than a farmer by the fact that plants have grown , even though there are still dead seeds visibile.

Anyway, Paul is quite clear that there are TWO bodies, and that God creates the new body.



Steven, we cross-posted. Suffice to say that you suffer from the false dichotomy. See above. "Heavenly" does not equal "wispy" or "vaporous."

And this is to be shown as well. I said 'ethereal', which has connotations of 'wispy' now, but was just the stuff of heavenly bodies 2,000 years ago.

CJD
July 18, 2003, 11:06 AM
Steven, Layman summed it up best: "Throughout Paul is discussing something (it) that is sown, but then is raised. It is sown a particular way, but it will be raised another way. It's the same thing being sown that is raised, but radically transformed."

Your suggestion that "God creates the new body" cannot mean in its textual context "from scratch."

Paul is simply pointing out that we would expect a resurrected body NOT to have the flesh of a mortal body.

Right. We should expect a resurrected body to have the soma of an immortal body.

This contradicts the Gospel idea that the body which went in the ground is the body which came out.

It is no contradiction insofar as the body is the plant that was formerly the seed.

You claim Paul believed that a spiritual body is one not ruled by sinful desires.

That is what makes the life and work of X so dramatic. The fact that the natural man is ruled thus, and the fact that the gospel story depicts a natural man defying such slavery, is the whole point. His work on our behalf. That's not so hard to grasp, is it?

Besides this, you are beginning to conflate Paul's use of soma and sarx.

Paul is simply talking about the transformation from a body of flesh enlivened by the soul that suffers want to a body of flesh enlivened by the Spirit that does not suffer want. Christ Jesus had always been enlivened by the Spirit. I think that is the point you have missed.

And this runs totally contrary to the Gospel claim that the physical body was not annihalated at all, but got up and walked around.

But then I wrote:"Or maybe herein lies the continuity between the seed and the plant. Whatever physical remnants of the body are left at the time of the resurrection, they will be "caught up" and transformed into the new body?"

To reiterate Layman, Paul is here largely speaking of Xians not Jesus.

But as you point out, when Paul wrote, he had heard of no experiences of a resurrected body to draw upon.

Um. I never said "he had heard of no experience . . . ." Doesn't Paul mention somewhere that a whole bunch of people saw Jesus after his resurrection? Besides all of this, he, by his own testimony (as well as the approval of the apostles), recounted a time when the risen Saviour appeared to him directly. You don't have to believe him, but that's what he said, and common sense would dictate that if he was not lying, then that is all the appeal one would need. Whatever else common sense dictates, I need not hear about it.

Or would he just have looked at the seemingly dead seeds, the plants, and used an analogy of a seed having to die before God creates a plant's body?

Yes, I think it's that simple. But the fact remains that the seed and the plant are of the same substance. It seems to me that you must grapple with the Hebraic concept of spiritual beings as found in the Tanak (which Paul, as a former Pharisee, would have known thoroughly), if you are to surmise what Paul was assuming in pericopes such as these.

* edited to add: I am not saying that just because a doctrine is found that Paul embraced it; I am saying that it would be wise to first go there, then compare to Paul's text, and then let the law of parsimony do the rest.

Regards,

CJD

Steven Carr
July 18, 2003, 11:11 AM
Of course, it's quite possible that that they had heard the gospel stories but put their own gnostic gloss on them--as later actual gnostics were to do. Or, even as Muslism, aware of gospel stories, put their own spin on them. You assume way too much. But it appears that they simply did not make take the Gospel stories as examples of what would happen, or had happened to them.



And you assume too much assuming that they had heard of them.

If they had heard of them (or if Paul had heard of them!) 1 Cor. 15 would have referred to them in some way.


Paul actually is very clear that the body which is sown is raised transformed. Heck, the entire analogy of the seed falls apart if there is no continuinty. What the seed analogy stresses is continuity with radical transformation.


Does a see lay rotting in the ground wants the rose has bloomed? Of course not, the seed has become the rose.



And, of course, Paul would have seen plants coming up although there were dead seeds still in the ground.

There is total discontiniuity in Paul's analogy. The seed dies (is annihalted, according to CJD) and then God CREATES the body of the thing of which the seed is the seed.




And Paul himself is clear that he is discussing the same body of the Christian pre and post resurrection:

1 Cor. 15: 42-44 It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; itis sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.



Note there THERE IS ALSO a spiritual body. 2 bodies, ie nmore than one. Just how clearly must Paul write to show that the body which came out of the ground was not the body which was planted, no more than the huge shrub of the mustard plant is nothing like the mustard seed.




Besides, you ignored that Paul is here using a Pharsiac analogy for bodily resurrection:

It is significant that Talmudic literature uses the same analogy of a seed to explain the connection between the old body and the new one following the resurrection. According to the Talmud, Rabbi Meier used the metaphor of a grain of wheat sown into the ground but raised a blossoming flower: "If a kernel fo wheat is buried naked and will sprout forth in many robes, how much more so the righteous." (b. Sanh. 90b). Not only does this highlight Paul's Jewishness, it further suggests that Paul was discussing--as was Rabbi Meier--a physical resurrection.



There is simply no context to what you have quoted from the Talmud. Out of context quotes are not convincing. Give the sentences before and after, to prove that this is relevant to a resurrection.




But, if I had to reconstruct Paul's thoughts on the subject I'd probably tentatively conclude that Paul believed that Jesus was a spiritual man, as he uses that term in 1 Cor. 2:14-15, but that he had a natural body that was transformed into a spiritual body upon his resurrection.




Of course, and it was no longer a flesh-and-blood body.




Actually, your objection is a false dichotomy. Even if the new body was "some ethereal, spiritual substance" that does not preclude continuity with the old. Remember, Paul uses the term "transformed" to describe what happens to the old body. So it is quite possible that the old natureal body was "transformed" into your substance.



Again, I agree. But the Gospels have Jesus eating, and being touched.




Jews did not believe that "heavenly bodies" were immortal spiritual bodies. Indeed, Paul is quite clear that heavenly bodies are physical objects. And he and other Jews believed that those physical objects would be displaced at the end of time.



Well, you are the expert. Perhaps you can tell us whether Jews believed heavenly bodies were made out of any substance found on earth.




You fail to explain how Paul can speak of the "transformation" of the old body if he merely means a spiritual resurrection (or, a replacement by some other kind of spiritual substance).





I shall quote your own words

' Remember, Paul uses the term "transformed" to describe what happens to the old body. So it is quite possible that the old natureal body was "transformed" into your substance.'

So you agree that he merely meant a replacement by some other kind of spiritual substance.




You completely ingore Romans 8, which makes it clear that God will give "life to your mortal bodies" at the resurrection.



Romans 8
10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Layman adds words not found in Romans 8 'at the resurrection', so he can accuse me of ignoring words that he only added to the Bible a few moments ago.

Paul is not talking about the resurrection in Romans 8. Paul is talking about their lives being transformed here and now.







You also ignore the use of "soma" to emphasize the physical.

Because it was a non-sequitor on your part. Naturally, there are places where 'soma' means a physical, flesh-and-blood body. Lots of words have different meanings in different contexts.

Layman
July 18, 2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Steven Carr
It seems to me that the Corinthians are doubting the resurrection, because it was known that the body of Jesus was still in the grave, and Paul is trying to get around this.



You have your worlds turned upside down. The Corinthians are coming from a Greek background. They are not Pharisees or Jews devoted to the idea of a physical resurrection. From a Greek conception of life after death, the fact that Jesus' body remained in the tomb would pose no difficulty at all.

Then we have Paul, a Jew, a Pharisee. But more than that he is speaking of resurrection from a thoroughly Jewish standpoint--it includes the soma and is an eschatological event. He is the Jew in this scenario. Indeed, elsehwere he is attempting to impose Jewish sexual mores on this Greek-background church that permits licentious behavior.

So you have the Greeks playing the part of the Jews and the Jew playing the part of the Greeks. A Greek would have no problem with a body in the grave and discussion of resurrection, and a Jew would not go out of his way to try and convince people that there was a resurrection when the body was still in the grave.

Peter Kirby
July 18, 2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Layman
A Greek would have no problem with a body in the grave and discussion of resurrection, . . . What is the evidence that Greeks had a conception of a spiritual resurrection?

thanks,
Peter Kirby

Steven Carr
July 18, 2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by CJD
[B]Steven, Layman summed it up best: "Throughout Paul is discussing something (it) that is sown, but then is raised. It is sown a particular way, but it will be raised another way. It's the same thing being sown that is raised, but radically transformed."

Your suggestion that "God creates the new body" cannot mean in its textual context "from scratch."




Best to quote 1 Cor. 15 again

'When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.'

The body planted in the ground was NOT the body that came out of the ground. God gave it a new body.

God looks at the seed, creates a body of the plant for that seed, and gives it to the seed, which dies and is annihilated.

Amazing somebody can look at an analogy of an acorn being planted, and an oak tree growing, 2 vastly different things , and conclude that Paul meant that Jesus's resurrected body would still have had the same wounds and still be flesh-and-blood, just as it was before it was planted.

The analogy emphasises the utter discontinuity and the irrelevance of the seed being planted, which is no more than a message to God to say what sort of body now needs to be created.

This is just so different from the Gospel stories of a resuscitated corpse.

CJD
July 18, 2003, 11:31 AM
What is the evidence that Greeks had a conception of a spiritual resurrection?

thanks,
Peter Kirby

Maybe Plato's Meno and Phaedo? Both speak of immortality of the soul (not "resurrection" per se). With reference to the seed analogy, see especially his dialogue Symposium.

It would seem more accurate to say that the Greeks would not have been opposed to the idea that the soul continued to live on after death.

Layman
July 18, 2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Peter Kirby
What is the evidence that Greeks had a conception of a spiritual resurrection?

thanks,
Peter Kirby

CJD is right. "Spiritual resurrection" is an anachronistic term. They believed that the human spirit was immortal and continued on after death. Unlike Christian resurrection, this did not require, as I understand it, any divine intervention. This was the normal state of affairs and is very Platonic. The spirit is freed from its fleshly prison. I can get you cites if you this doesn't clarify my position sufficiently.

CJD
July 18, 2003, 11:49 AM
Best to quote 1 Cor. 15 again

'When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.'

The body planted in the ground was NOT the body that came out of the ground. God gave it a new body.

I agree with your principle, but I think Paul, by emphasizing the differences from seed to plant is pointing out a difference in quality, with at least one substantial difference—the incorruptibility of the flesh.

God looks at the seed, creates a body of the plant for that seed, and gives it to the seed, which dies and is annihilated.

Amazing somebody can look at an analogy of an acorn being planted, and an oak tree growing, 2 vastly different things , and conclude that Paul meant that Jesus's resurrected body would still have had the same wounds and still be flesh-and-blood, just as it was before it was planted.

Steven, there has to be some amount of continuity, even if its just the body itself. In other words, given all the improvements the resurrected body is supposed to have, one continuity must remain: it is a body. Again, it is a false dichotomy that assumes Paul is speaking of material/immaterial. Why can't the discontinuity be material/perfected material? Which, BTW, would fall completely in line with the gospel story.

One more question: What do you make of the Greeks' responses to Paul at the mention of the resurrection at the Areopagus? Popular belief embraced immortality (especially the Stoics, who were said to be present at the time of Paul's apology), so what else would they have disdained, except that that immortality would be realized in the flesh?

Regards,

CJD

Steven Carr
July 18, 2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Layman
"Spiritual resurrection" is an anachronistic term. They believed that the human spirit was immortal and continued on after death. Unlike Christian resurrection, this did not require, as I understand it, any divine intervention. This was the normal state of affairs and is very Platonic. The spirit is freed from its fleshly prison. I can get you cites if you this doesn't clarify my position sufficiently.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 expresses very well this idea of a spirit yearning to be free from its earthly holder

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

I doubt if any Greek p[hilosopher could have put it better.

Steven Carr
July 18, 2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by CJD

Steven, there has to be some amount of continuity, even if its just the body itself. In other words, given all the improvements the resurrected body is supposed to have, one continuity must remain: it is a body. Again, it is a false dichotomy that assumes Paul is speaking of material/immaterial. Why can't the discontinuity be material/perfected material? Which, BTW, would fall completely in line with the gospel story.



A Gospel story which shows a Jesus still subject to the fleshly passion of having to eat, and still having wounds?

BTW, did anybody answer the question of why the Corinthians became Christians if they doubted that there was a resurrection from the dead?

Peter Kirby
July 18, 2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Layman
CJD is right. "Spiritual resurrection" is an anachronistic term. They believed that the human spirit was immortal and continued on after death. Unlike Christian resurrection, this did not require, as I understand it, any divine intervention. This was the normal state of affairs and is very Platonic. The spirit is freed from its fleshly prison. I can get you cites if you this doesn't clarify my position sufficiently. However, you said, "A Greek would have no problem with a body in the grave and discussion of resurrection, . . ." Would you agree that this is false, or is there evidence that a Greek would have no problem with discussion of resurrection with a body in the grave?

(Minor point: most Greeks didn't agree with Plato's afterlife.)

best,
Peter Kirby

Layman
July 18, 2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Steven Carr
And you assume too much assuming that they had heard of them.

I only assume what Paul tells us. He had previously taught them about the resurrection of Jesus.

If they had heard of them (or if Paul had heard of them!) 1 Cor. 15 would have referred to them in some way.

As I pointed out, Paul does refer to his previous teachings of the resurrection of Jesus.

And, of course, Paul would have seen plants coming up although there were dead seeds still in the ground.

There is total discontiniuity in Paul's analogy. The seed dies (is annihalted, according to CJD) and then God CREATES the body of the thing of which the seed is the seed.

As hard as you say it, and as many times as you say it, you cannot make white = black. The seed becomes the plant. It is transformed into the plant. There is no "total discontinuity." That the seed dies certianly does not preclude it being resurrected. Indeed, death is a necessary condition of resurrection. (And I am not CJD and Paul nowhere says "annhilated").

And please, quit just asserting what you want Paul to say, if Paul says that God creates a brand new body that has no contintuity with the old, then please who where he says that.

Note there THERE IS ALSO a spiritual body. 2 bodies, ie nmore than one. Just how clearly must Paul write to show that the body which came out of the ground was not the body which was planted, no more than the huge shrub of the mustard plant is nothing like the mustard seed.

Again you ignore what Paul actually says. He does not speak of two bodies existing at the same time. The spiritual body is raised from the old one. "It" is sown, and "it" is raised. It is sown one kind of body and "it" is raised another kind of body.

There is simply no context to what you have quoted from the Talmud. Out of context quotes are not convincing. Give the sentences before and after, to prove that this is relevant to a resurrection.

Oh please, the selected material is obviously discussing the resurrection of the righteous. Just as Paul uses the analogy, the stress is on continuity but transformation.

The context is a story of a Rabbi explaining the concept of the resurrection to an Egyptian who has questions about how the body is raised, and seems especially concerned about its nakedness.

The Grain of Wheat

Queen Cleopatra said to Rabbi Meir:
--"I know that the dead will live, for it is written:
--'like the grass of the ground they shall sprout from the city' (Ps 72:16). But when they rise, will they rise up naked or in their garments?"
He said to her, (arguing) from less to greater [qal wahomer]from a grain of wheat:
--"And what of a grain of wheat which is buried naked? It rises up in so many garments. How much more the righteous, who are buried in their garments!"
--- Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 90b

http://religion.rutgers.edu/iho/parable.html#wheat

So the context is clear--This section of the Talmud, like Paul, is discussing the nature of bodily resurrection.

Of course, and it was no longer a flesh-and-blood body.

Well, not as the idiom "flesh and blood" is used, no, he did not.

Again, I agree. But the Gospels have Jesus eating, and being touched.

Then you are arguing another point, because this post--as I made quite clear--is devoted to demonstrating continuity between the old and the new, not about examining the exact nature of the resurrected body.

Well, you are the expert. Perhaps you can tell us whether Jews believed heavenly bodies were made out of any substance found on earth.

Apparently Paul believed they were made out of material stuff, but different than that which makes up creatures. But they are not spiritual beings.

I shall quote your own words

'Remember, Paul uses the term "transformed" to describe what happens to the old body. So it is quite possible that the old natureal body was "transformed" into your substance.'

So you agree that he merely meant a replacement by some other kind of spiritual substance.

Nope. My point is that there is continuity between the old body and the new one. The old body is transformed into the new one. You are the one who is arguing that the old body continues to rot in the grave. How is that possible if it is transformed into the new body?

Please clarify whether you believe Paul believed that the old body just rotted or if it was transformed? You seem to be shifting around.

Romans 8
10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Layman adds words not found in Romans 8 'at the resurrection', so he can accuse me of ignoring words that he only added to the Bible a few moments ago.

Oh, please don't be so petty. I'm not adding words to Romans 8, I put quotes around what came from Romans 8 and they did not encompass the reference to the resurrection.

Paul is not talking about the resurrection in Romans 8. Paul is talking about their lives being transformed here and now.

Paul is referring to the "here and now" in the first part of Romans 8. That is the part that: "But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. If the Messiah is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

As I wrote but you ignored in the initial post:Verses 9-10 speaks to the present: "But you are not in the flesh, you are in the spirit. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness."

Note all the references to the present tense. Christians are in the spirit now. Their spirits are alive because of Jesus. But, their bodies are dead, despite that.

The second part of these verses, however, speaks to a future event--not to the here and now: "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised the Messiah from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit who dwells in you."

As I wrote but you ignored in the initial post: Contrast that with verse 11: "If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you."

Paul shifts tenses and notes that, even though we currently have "dead" bodies, the resurrection of Jesus guarantees that we will have new mortal bodies, infused with his Spirit. Though Christians still have a dead/mortal body despite the indwelling of the spirit, we will have a new life brought into our mortal bodies at the resurrection.

Paul is very clear that the Spirit of the Messiah is in Christians now and that as a result their spirits are alive. However, even though the spirit of the Messiah is in the Christians, their mortal bodies are still dead because of sin. That is the state of the Christian even though the Messiah has started a transforming work. The culimination of that transforming work, however, is a future event. That this event is the resurrection is made clear because Paul stresses resurrection by repeating twice that the spirit that raised Jesus from the dead will then give life to our mortal bodies.


Because it was a non-sequitor on your part. Naturally, there are places where 'soma' means a physical, flesh-and-blood body. Lots of words have different meanings in different contexts.

Please show me where Paul uses "soma" to refer to a purely spiritual being.

As I have shown, Paul again and again and again uses "soma" to refer to the phsyical part of man. "The soma denotes the physical body, roughly synonymous with flesh in the neutral sense." Robert H. Gundry, Soma in Biblical Theology, at 50. By using the term soma, Paul is stressing the resurrection including the physical part of man.

And you continue to ignore the fact that Paul believed that the spirit of the believer went to be with Jesus immediately upon death. What need, therefore, of any future reference to the "resurrection" of the "soma"? Unless of course, as a good Jew, Paul believed that resurrection involved the physical body of the believer.

And you now seem to be shifting your position. Before you argued that the body continued to rot in the ground. I've pointed out now several times that this is inconsistent with Paul's langauge of "transformation" of the old into the new. Your response has been to argue that the new body is different than the one described in the gospels. Okay, well that's not the focus of this thread, but are you now admitting that by "transformation" that Paul sees the old body becoming the new one? Or are you going to continue ignoring Paul's "transformation" language?

Layman
July 18, 2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Peter Kirby
However, you said, "A Greek would have no problem with a body in the grave and discussion of resurrection, . . ." Would you agree that this is false, or is there evidence that a Greek would have no problem with discussion of resurrection with a body in the grave?

(Minor point: most Greeks didn't agree with Plato's afterlife.)

best,
Peter Kirby

I'll agree that the use of the term of "resurrection" is misleading to the informed because it is anachronostic. Most modern Americans unfortunately equate "resurrection" with
"life after death." To Jews, resurrection mean bodily resurrection. Indeed, there is a good argument to be made that the term resurrection itself carried with it a clear reference to the body. To that extent, "resurrection" may be a poor word. Is that what you are getting at?

But if I was using "resurrection" to mean "life ater death" then the statement is accurate, though the use of the term might be misleading to some.

I stand by my point that Greeks believed in life after death involving the human spirit. They devalued the physical and the concept of a bodiyl resurrection was, as Paul put it, a "stumbling block" to them.

Perhaps I'm not getting your point.

Layman
July 18, 2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Steven Carr
BTW, did anybody answer the question of why the Corinthians became Christians if they doubted that there was a resurrection from the dead?

The question is actually self-defeating on your part since your view of Paul's letter requires you to believe that as Christianity got further away from its Jewish roots and more and more immerseed in Hellenistic culture, that its original belief in a purely spiritual resurrection somehow transformed by Greek influence into a belief in a bodily resurrection.

That Paul attracted converts from among the Greeks who had difficulties shedding some of their hellenistic ideas and lapsed back into them on occassion much better fits the socio-religious background than your idea that the more Greek Christianity becamse the more they demanded a physical resurrection.

Peter Kirby
July 18, 2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Layman
I'll agree that the use of the term of "resurrection" is misleading to the informed because it is anachronostic. Most modern Americans unfortunately equate "resurrection" with
"life after death." To Jews, resurrection mean bodily resurrection. Indeed, there is a good argument to be made that the term resurrection itself carried with it a clear reference to the body. To that extent, "resurrection" may be a poor word. Is that what you are getting at?

But if I was using "resurrection" to mean "life ater death" then the statement is accurate, though the use of the term might be misleading to some.

I stand by my point that Greeks believed in life after death involving the human spirit. They devalued the physical and the concept of a bodiyl resurrection was, as Paul put it, a "stumbling block" to them.

Perhaps I'm not getting your point. My point is that Greeks would have a problem with the idea of a resurrection with a body still in the grave. Further, the Greeks in general had a problem with the idea of a resurrection, period. This makes it likely that Paul's opponents in Corinth were not saying that people were raised spiritually, unless you can show that some Greeks had a concept of a spiritual resurrection. Rather, some of these opponents were denying the idea of a resurrection in toto.

I do not believe that there is any justification for equating "resurrection" with "life after death," as they are not the same thing. And I do not believe that the beliefs of Plato can be generalized for all Hellenes.

best,
Peter Kirby

Layman
July 18, 2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Steven Carr
2 Corinthians 5:1-8 expresses very well this idea of a spirit yearning to be free from its earthly holder

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

I doubt if any Greek p[hilosopher could have put it better.

Not hardly. Notice throughout the focus Paul has on a new physical dwelling place or clothes. He is not speaking of the human spirit escaping its physical body, but of God providing to humans a new physical body animated by his spirit. He speaks of a "building" from God, a "house." This is not the language of the human spirit set free from its body, but of God providing new bodies to human beings.

In other words, this is consistent with the Jewish belief that God's creation is good, but fallen. And, at some point in the future (eschatology), God will "fix" creation. At that time, our bodies that have been taitned by their fallen state will be subsumed by bodies from God that are not subjet to that fallan state. This is classic Jewish eschatology.

Layman
July 18, 2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Peter Kirby
My point is that Greeks would have a problem with the idea of a resurrection with a body still in the grave. Further, the Greeks in general had a problem with the idea of a resurrection, period. This makes it likely that Paul's opponents in Corinth were not saying that people were raised spiritually, unless you can show that some Greeks had a concept of a spiritual resurrection. Rather, some of these opponents were denying the idea of a resurrection in toto.


I do not believe that there is any justification for equating "resurrection" with "life after death," as they are not the same thing. And I do not believe that the beliefs of Plato can be generalized for all Hellenes.

best,
Peter Kirby

I'm not sure we disagree Peter. You agree that most Greeks believed in life after death. Right? And that "life after death" was not bodily. Right? If all Paul meant was that the human spirit continued to live after the body died, then what would be the objection of most Greeks?

I agree with you that the term "resurrection" would have implied something physical to a Greek audience.

I agree that the term "resurrection" does not mean "life after death." I've admitted that several times and I again apologize for being anachronostic. The sad fact is that many modern Americans DO get the two concepts confused.

Again, I'm sorry I don't see your point here, but could you spell it out for me. Are you saying that the Corinthians would have denied that the spirit continued after death? They were like the Sadduccees who denied ANY life after death?

I'm not sure how your point relates to the overall discussion.

Peter Kirby
July 18, 2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Layman
I'm not sure we disagree Peter. You agree that most Greeks believed in life after death. Right? And that "life after death" was not bodily. Right? If all Paul meant was that the human spirit continued to live after the body died, then what would be the objection of most Greeks?

I agree with you that the term "resurrection" would have implied something physical to a Greek audience.

I agree that the term "resurrection" does not mean "life after death." I've admitted that several times and I again apologize for being anachronostic. The sad fact is that many modern Americans DO get the two concepts confused.

Again, I'm sorry I don't see your point here, but could you spell it out for me. Are you saying that the Corinthians would have denied that the spirit continued after death? They were like the Sadduccees who denied ANY life after death?

I'm not sure how your point relates to the overall discussion. I was objecting to the specific statement that you made. I accept the apology/correction that you have made.

best,
Peter Kirby

CJD
July 18, 2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Layman
That Paul attracted converts from among the Greeks who had difficulties shedding some of their hellenistic ideas and lapsed back into them on occassion much better fits the socio-religious background than your idea that the more Greek Christianity becamse the more they demanded a physical resurrection.

Yes. This is much less convoluted.

Peter Kirby wrote
My point is that Greeks would have a problem with the idea of a resurrection with a body still in the grave. Further, the Greeks in general had a problem with the idea of a resurrection, period. This makes it likely that Paul's opponents in Corinth were not saying that people were raised spiritually, unless you can show that some Greeks had a concept of a spiritual resurrection.

But Layman's argument doesn't seem to rest on this point, as Paul's use of soma and his Pharisaic background show his belief that the resurrection should be expected to be a bodily resurrection.

Rather, some of these opponents were denying the idea of a resurrection in toto.

Agreed. But why? Because at the very least, some of the Xians in Corinth had hearkened back to their Greekish glory days and redeveloped a disdain for the human body, probably distorting their sexual relationships, too (cf. 6:14). Since the body is disdained, the doctrine of the resurrection (which Paul had undoubtedly already taught them) meant that dishonourable bodies would be raised. This, they could not stomach.

And I do not believe that the beliefs of Plato can be generalized for all Hellenes.

No one said this. But history shows a general belief that the soul was immortal. Plato's details are beside the point.

Romans 8:18–23 expresses very well the idea of the entire material created universe (our bodies included) pining after the redemption of God:

18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

I doubt one could get any more un-Platonic than that.

Regards,

CJD

* edited to add: sorry Peter, cross-posted.

Layman
July 18, 2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Peter Kirby
I was objecting to the specific statement that you made. I accept the apology/correction that you have made.

best,
Peter Kirby

Good.

The task is somewhat difficult because I think part of the problem is the anachronisms some of us place on the terms in our English translations and popular beliefs about life-after-death.

Layman
July 18, 2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by CJD

Romans 8:18–23 expresses very well the idea of the entire material created universe (our bodies included) pining after the redemption of God:



I doubt one could get any more un-Platonic than that.

Regards,

CJD

Great point and use of Paul's writing. Exactly true. I'll have to incorporate this into my article if you don't mind.

All creation is awaiting reconciliation with the creator. This includes our bodies. But the reconciliation requires a transformation. Thus, the bodly resurrection which affirms continuity but with radical transformation.

Peter Kirby
July 18, 2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by CJD
But Layman's argument doesn't seem to rest on this point, as Paul's use of soma and his Pharisaic background show his belief that the resurrection should be expected to be a bodily resurrection. If you look at the OP closely, you will see that I am cited as the hidebound atheist who rejects (against my all-clouding skeptical bias) the idea that ancients believed in "spiritual resurrections." So I have no problem with the main point being made by you and Layman in this thread.

best,
Peter Kirby

Layman
July 18, 2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Peter Kirby
If you look at the OP closely, you will see that I am cited as the hidebound atheist who rejects (against my all-clouding skeptical bias) the idea that ancients believed in "spiritual resurrections." So I have no problem with the main point being made by you and Layman in this thread.

best,
Peter Kirby

Hey, I simply refer to you as a skeptic. It's not stated in amazement that you in particular are so clear headed on this issue, but kind of as a soothing reminder to other, more militant types, that it's okay to admit this point if the evidence leads us there.

:)

Toto
July 18, 2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Layman

. . .

However, the idea that Paul believed in a spiritual resurrection and not a physical one has rightly been rejected by the majority of scholars. Even some skeptics have rejected it. See http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/peter_kirby/tomb/paul.html <== fixed URL

. . . .

The URL needs to have the period at the end edited out. And I don't think that Peter Kirby actually "rejects" the idea. He says that there is insufficient evidence to accept one form of the idea, but seems to favor the view that "The second understanding is that resurrection will not leave the body of flesh unstirred but that resurrection will transform the current body entirely into a spiritual, non-material body that is not located in space and time." I am not sure if this is accurately described as a belief in a "physical resurrection," although it implies that there may be no physical body left in the grave. I do not see a sharp divide between Peter Kirby's view here and that of Richard Carrier, except for the question of whether the old physical body was left in the grave or transmuted into the new ethereal body.

Paul is claimed as an "initiate" by the modern (?) Theosophists.

..........the archaic doctrine finds the seven in Plato's various combinations of Soul and Spirit. He regarded man as constituted of two parts -- one eternal, formed of the same essence as the Absoluteness, the other mortal and corruptible, deriving its constituent parts from the minor "created" Gods. Man is composed, he shows, of (1) A mortal body, (2) An immortal principle, and (3) A "separate mortal kind of Soul." It is that which we respectively call the physical man, the Spiritual Soul or Spirit, and the animal Soul (the Nous and psuche). This is the division adopted by Paul, another Initiate, who maintains that there is a psychical body which is sown in the corruptible (astral soul or body), and a spiritual body that is raised in incorruptible substance. Even James (iii. 15) corroborates the same by saying that the "wisdom" (of our lower soul) descendeth not from the above, but is terrestrial ("psychical," "demoniacal," vide Greek text); while the other is heavenly wisdom.

From Blavatsky.net (http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/septenary-constitution-of-man.htm)

Also Another doctrine is that man is not merely a body, but is a composite being of many divisions. St. Paul taught we have a spiritual body as well as a material body, that we are a spiritual body and a physical body and spirit. That will bring in every one of the seven principles of the Theosophical category. So we say, all through the Chr