Do you ever envy the believers?

[Howard]

I do… sometimes. At least the ones who aren't young Earth, Bible quoting, frothing-at-the-mouth fundamentalists (who, I think, are still in the minority, despite the fact that a lot of them seem to be running the US Government right now.)

It must be nice to have a carved-in-stone set of rules.… even though most believers don’t seem to obey their rules any more that the rest of us obey ours.

It must be nice to be absolutely certain that you're going to live forever… although, gun-to-their heads, I’ll bet most believers are just as scared of dying as the rest of us. No atheists in the foxholes? Maybe, I've never been in one; but I don't think there are many true believers there either.

Still, it must be comforting to be able convince yourself that death is not the end, that there is some Grand Plan, and some Grand Planner, who will make it all make sense. I wonder why some people can convince themselves and some people can't?

It seems life would be better if you could. I mean, I have a fair amount of self-delusion about a lot of things, but not God. Wish I did though… sometimes.

(This post was inspired by a very Christian funeral I recently attended. A good friend of mine, whom I’ll miss a lot, passed away. Most of the people there really seemed to believe that he was going to a better place. This never ceases to amaze me, and it always make me a little envious.)

[Godless Dave]

No. Never. Not even a little.

[Division By Zero]

I guess we're talking about theists who believe they'll be going to some kind of heaven when they die.

I suppose it must be a pleasant feeling to have convinced yourself that after you die you'll go live in a magic place of joy and happiness for all eternity.

I suppose it might even be nice to think that somebody bigger than you is watching out for you during your stay on Earth.

But in the universe we live in, none of that is true. It's better to accept life for what it is, not what you wish it could be, and I would rather face reality than avoid it. I'm never envious of happy delusion in others, no matter what the circumstances.

I never envy the believers.

[Mageth]

Can't say as I ever suffer from Jesus Envy. ;)

[DMB]

No. I'd rather have truth than false comfort.

For example, I have always hated the traditional attitude of a lot of doctors who didn't want to give people an honest view of their illness. I don't know if I'm right, but I think this attitude may be in decline.

If a doctor knows I am suffering from a terminal illness, I bloody well want to be told -- it's my life!

Belief in an afterlife seems to have a lot to do with a feeling that since the life we know about is frequently cruel and unfair, we need another, better one in compensation. I think this can lead to an easy acceptance of misery and injustice, because some deity will put everything right and the most exertion required from us is prayer. It's much better IMO to recognise that we need to put things right as far as we can ourselves and not wait for pie in the sky.

[Howard]

Originally posted by Division By Zero
I guess we're talking about theists who believe they'll be going to some kind of heaven when they die.

I suppose it must be a pleasant feeling to have convinced yourself that after you die you'll go live in a magic place of joy and happiness for all eternity.

I suppose it might even be nice to think that somebody bigger than you is watching out for you during your stay on Earth.

But in the universe we live in, none of that is true.

You don't know that; you just don't believe it. And there is nothing inherently irrational or self-destructive about believing it's true. It's not as if believers, as a group, are raving maniacs or particularly dysfunctional.


It's better to accept life for what it is, not what you wish it could be, and I would rather face reality than avoid it.
Not always. Without a little self-delusion, we'd have a great deal of difficulty getting through life. Don’t most of us think we're a little smarter, or a little better-looking, or a more likeable than we are? Nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't lose touch with reality.

[Gooch's dad]

Only for the dating/marriage opportunities. I'd prefer marrying someone with similar beliefs, and single atheist women are rather scarce.

I certainly don't envy the belief system, not in any way at all.

[Godless Dave]

Originally posted by Howard
Not always. Without a little self-delusion, we'd have a great deal of difficulty getting through life. Don’t most of us think we're a little smarter, or a little better-looking, or a more likeable than we are? Nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't lose touch with reality.

As Han Solo would say, that's the real trick, isn't it?

[cheetah]

When I am at my most vulnerable and scared, yes, I do wish I had the comfort of "knowing" that my life would not really end. I like life a lot, and am sad it's so short I try ot make the most of it, but I know it won't be long enough. So, at those times, the idea of an ever-lasting life, particularly one that is supposedly even better than this one, would be soooo comforting.

But normally, I am proud I can resist that urge. And that urge in me at those times is just further evidence to me that god belief often comes of extreme circumstances due to human weakness (of character) and not some divine inspiration. :rolleyes:

[Howard]

Originally posted by cheetah

But normally, I am proud I can resist that urge. And that urge in me at those times is just further evidence to me that god belief often comes of extreme circumstances due to human weakness (of character) and not some divine inspiration. :rolleyes: I don't know that it's weakness of character so much as it is the nature of one's character. Just as some people have an inherent propensity for art, music or math, some people may have an inherent propensity for belief.

[cheetah]

Originally posted by Howard
I don't know that it's weakness of character so much as it is the nature of one's character. Just as some people have an inherent propensity for art, music or math, some people may have an inherent propensity for belief.

Perhaps. There is certainly discussion around just that. I am referencing more those people that were non-believers "until." Until they got cancer or their mom died or they had a baby or some other highly charged emotional scenario that might tip someone over the edge in their need for belief. I call it a weakness of character because I find religion to be a bad thing, but certainly one need to classify it as a weakness. Just another type of characteristic, or nature, as you say.

[Alonzo Fyfe]

I would have to say that the answer is 'no'.

Ever since I was young, I wanted to make a real difference in the world, and I feared the idea of living my life pursuing something that I thought was worth pursuing that turned out not to be.

I looked at the people in history -- the Confederate soldier who defended slavery, the inquisitor, the crusader, all these people who made great sacrifices for what they believed in, only to have it be discovered that they sacrificed their lives for the defense of evil.

Even though they do not know that they fought on the wrong side, in fact they did, and I did not want to be like them.

So. no, I have no longing to have my mind clouded by error. Quite the opposite. I want to live in the real world.

[echidna]

Do you ever envy the believers? Absolutely, although maybe not quite for the reasons you mentioned. I came onto this site as a wannabe theist & I still am. Mainly that I want there to be justice in our lives, that wrongs can be righted and that evil will be punished, and also that there should be a higher meaning to our lives, not just that pittance of meaning which I give it.

I find atheism soul-less and sterile & I find it intriguing that the Universe leaves itself so tantalisingly unknowable, somehow like we’re the subjects of a huge practical joke.

[Division By Zero]

Originally posted by Howard
You don't know that; you just don't believe it.
Yes, of course. Normally, I would have added the qualifier, but given the nature of the thread I didn't feel it was necessary. I see I've irritated you with the omission, though.

How about: "In the universe we live in, I have tremendous doubt that this is the case." Almost anything's possible, after all.

And there is nothing inherently irrational or self-destructive about believing it's true. It's not as if believers, as a group, are raving maniacs or particularly dysfunctional.
No, they aren't, and I didn't say that.

But how is it not irrational to believe that there is life after death, when we have no evidence to support the belief? I say that is irrational; at best, it's non-rational. I certainly don't see how it can be called rational.

As for self-destructive- not exactly, and I didn't say that. I view belief in the afterlife as extremely irrational, and I personally don't think irrational thought of that magnitude is good for the mind. And in any case, even if it's not bad for the mind, the question asked was whether I envy their optimism - and the answer is no.

[lisarea]

Aw, hell yeah.

Sometimes, it'd be nice. It'd be nice to think that I'm so freaking important I'm the center of the damned universe and there's some giant invisible superentity who has all kinds of crazy powers who lurves me SOOO much he can bend reality to my whims.

Sometimes, life would be a hell of a lot easier if I didn't get so damned pissed off at all the crap going on around me, and that there was some kind of extrareality in which my enemies got smited and I got rewarded.

Sometimes, I also envy people stupider than me, people smarter than me, people older or younger than me, men, "conservatives," "liberals," Nazis, full-on unapologetic assholes, people in comas, corpses, chimpanzees, rich people, poor people who don't have to do very much paperwork, and people who like Star Trek.

So take me with a whole freaking salt lick.

Hey! I think I envy salt licks.

[dimpledop]

Of course it would be nice to have a supreme being in one's corner, and to believe that death isn't really the end. But I cannot *envy* people for being creative and then insisting that their creation is reality, as comforting as that creation may be. There is no evidence of a god or gods. There is no evidence of an afterlife. There is only evidence of many people believing those things to be true, despite the lack of evidence. That is all.

The death of a loved one always makes people think about these things. My condolences to you, Howard, for the loss of your friend.

[Hedwig]

Not anymore. I value my life and this universe far too much to throw an imaginary security blanket over it.

[Jobar]

Not for their beliefs, in the least. But for their social advantages, often. We're social critters, and one of the things I purely *hate* about my skepticism is that I have to keep this whole facet of my life more or less covered up if I am to function in the largely theistic society around me. And I'm not even in the closet! I find myself biting my tongue on a regular basis- when I'm talking to ordinary people who don't know about my unbelief, or when I'm talking to family members who do know (but who I don't want to argue with).

One of the reasons I spend so much time here...

[Howard]

Originally posted by Alonzo Fyfe
I looked at the people in history -- the Confederate soldier who defended slavery, the inquisitor, the crusader, all these people who made great sacrifices for what they believed in, only to have it be discovered that they sacrificed their lives for the defense of evil.

Even though they do not know that they fought on the wrong side, in fact they did, and I did not want to be like them.
I don't see where believing in God is inherently evil the way, say, slavery is. Obviously, it can be used to justify terrible acts, but so can belief in a political or social ideology. People who choose to do harm have no trouble rationalizing it.

So. no, I have no longing to have my mind clouded by error. Quite the opposite. I want to live in the real world.

So do I, but this particular error (if it really is) seems to comfort a lot of people without doing any harm.

Originally posted by Division By Zero
Yes, of course. Normally, I would have added the qualifier, but given the nature of the thread I didn't feel it was necessary. I see I've irritated you with the omission, though.

How about: "In the universe we live in, I have tremendous doubt that this is the case."

So do I, and I wasn't irritated.



No, they aren't, and I didn't say that.

But how is it not irrational to believe that there is life after death, when we have no evidence to support the belief? I say that is irrational; at best, it's non-rational. I certainly don't see how it can be called rational.

At some point we did not exist, now we do exist. At some other point we will not exist. Who's to say can't exist again. It happened once why can't it happen again? Unlikely sure, but irrational, no.


As for self-destructive- not exactly, and I didn't say that. I view belief in the afterlife as extremely irrational, and I personally don't think irrational thought of that magnitude is good for the mind.

I don't believe it either, but I still don't see how it's irrational. If I believe in a young earth, when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that's irrational. But there is no overwhelming evidence contrary to the existence of God. There just isn't enough objective evidence for some people to believe.

[cheetah]

Originally posted by Howard

But there is no overwhelming evidence contrary to the existence of God. There just isn't enough objective evidence for some people to believe.

Should people believe everything that there is not overwhelming evidence to the contrary for? It is irrational to do so, I agree with the other posters! Why, if you went ahead and believed in just anything simply because there is no overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you'd be pretty busy cataloging all the things you believe in!

I also disagree that that comforting belief of theists is not harmful to anyone. It sure as heck has been and continues to be!

[Demosthenes]

No, ever have. Most of the time, it's indifference or contempt for organized religions.

Even Buddhism which's the most interesting religion in my opinion leave me with a bad taste with all of those religious trappings. So instead I distill the really relevant ideas and discard all those useless baggage accumulated over the centuries from a myraid of different cultures.

[Shake]

It seems to me that what you're asking is if I envy a particular belief of theists. My answer then, would simply be, no, I don't. Not any more than I envy those misguided fools who root for the Boston Red Sox (everyone knows the NY Yankees are the best team in baseball ;) ). If that silly belief gives them comfort, then fine. It doesn't work for me, and that should be fine for them (of course, it usually isn't though).

Otherwise, I think others like DMB and dimpledop have summed up the rest of my feelings on this.

[Howard]

Originally posted by cheetah
Should people believe everything that there is not overwhelming evidence to the contrary for? It is irrational to do so, I agree with the other posters! Why, if you went ahead and believed in just anything simply because there is no overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you'd be pretty busy cataloging all the things you believe in!
Except that there are lot of people who believe there IS evidence that a Supreme Intelligence exists. Just the fact that there is a universe with conscious, self-aware life is evidence enough.

When you ask a question such as, "Where did the universe come from?" and the answer is something like, "a random occurrence in the quantum foam" do you really think that's going to satisfy many people? Not to mention the fact that the science is so complex that even at a place like the SecWeb, with a high percentage of educated and intelligent people, very few of us remotely understand it. Can you explain it?

And when you ask further fundamental questions such as, "How did life come from non-life?" (Try explaining "The Anthropic Principle" to someone. See how far you get.) and "What happens after we die?" the answers are just not going to work for most people. They are too complicated, or too counter-intuitive, or too unsettling. For most people "God did it" works a lot better. It gives then both comprehensible answers and hope.


I also disagree that that comforting belief of theists is not harmful to anyone. It sure as heck has been and continues to be!

That kind of general condemnation is unjustified. Belief in God can be harmful, but so can belief in any system. It's not like fascism which is inherently wrong. Religious belief does a lot of good for a lot of people.

[Howard]

Originally posted by dimpledop
Of course it would be nice to have a supreme being in one's corner, and to believe that death isn't really the end. But I cannot *envy* people for being creative and then insisting that their creation is reality, as comforting as that creation may be. There is no evidence of a god or gods. There is no evidence of an afterlife. There is only evidence of many people believing those things to be true, despite the lack of evidence. That is all.

To a lot of people there is plenty of evidence. See my previous post.


The death of a loved one always makes people think about these things. My condolences to you, Howard, for the loss of your friend.

Thank you. .

Originally posted by Shake
It seems to me that what you're asking is if I envy a particular belief of theists. My answer then, would simply be, no, I don't.

No, I'm just asking about a general belief in a Supreme Being and an afterlife. No specifics involved.


Not any more than I envy those misguided fools who root for the Boston Red Sox (everyone knows the NY Yankees are the best team in baseball ;) ). If that silly belief gives them comfort, then fine. It doesn't work for me, and that should be fine for them (of course, it usually isn't though).

The Yankees are spawns of the devil. They should all get radioactive hemorrhoids. Go Sox. This is the year.

[lpetrich]

I don't have such envy.

And I really have to wonder how much "consolation" it really is to believe that one will live happily ever after in some Next World.

Where are those who make their last words, "See you in Heaven"?

And whoever turns funerals into celebrations along the lines of "Hooray! They made it over!"?

That supposed belief in everlasting happiness is not very apparent in most funerals I've ever been aware of.


That being said, I turn to other considerations. Atheism does not rule out an afterlife. Certainly not a religion-independent one like becoming a ghost and haunting some house. Or becoming reincarnated.

[missus_gumby]

Looks like this thread belongs in the Secular Lifestyle forum.

Martin (Moderator)

[DigitalChicken]

The only thing I envy is their willingness to organize and work toward greater real and relevant goals.

We, non-believers, have lot to learn from them in that aspect.

DC

[Howard]

Originally posted by lpetrich
I don't have such envy.

And I really have to wonder how much "consolation" it really is to believe that one will live happily ever after in some Next World.

Where are those who make their last words, "See you in Heaven"?

And whoever turns funerals into celebrations along the lines of "Hooray! They made it over!"?

That supposed belief in everlasting happiness is not very apparent in most funerals I've ever been aware of.


I do not understand why so many of y'all are so opposed to people wanting to minimize the pain of death and loss. That's not irrational, it's perfectly normal. If you get a physical injury you treat it, don't you? A bandaid, a splint, a cold pack.

Similarly, if you get a mental injury you treat it For a lot of people believing their loved one is with God seems to work. If it eases their pain, what's wrong with it? Granted, it can get out of control but for most people it doesn't. They've just figured out a way to get through life with less pain… and without doing any great mental or physical damage, or losing touch with reality. It makes me a little envious.

[Virgil Tibbs]

Originally posted by Howard
Except that there are lot of people who believe there IS evidence that a Supreme Intelligence exists. Just the fact that there is a universe with conscious, self-aware life is evidence enough.

But then how were the creator(s) created, and if he/she/it/they do not need a conscious external entity to create them, why would the universe need one? So this supposition answers nothing.

When you ask a question such as, "Where did the universe come from?" and the answer is something like, "a random occurrence in the quantum foam" do you really think that's going to satisfy many people?

Speculation about the origin of the universe is just that: speculation. I might think its possible that the universe began as a quantum fluctuation, but I don't believe it must be true or is even likely to be true. The only honest answer is: "I don't know."

"Goddidit" is even less helpful because it translates to: "It can never be known." Quite frankly I find that attitude self-defeating. Applying it to the origins of the universe is no different than ancient peoples applying it to weather, IMO (and they often did for very similar reasons to what you describe).

For most people "God did it" works a lot better. It gives then both comprehensible answers and hope.

Comprehensible how? Anything supernatural is supposedly too complicated to ever be understood.

It gives them hope because their parents train them to believe it should. Personally, I think a universe where humanity is free to explore the entire run of it gives me more hope than being trapped in a supernatural box where "these things are not meant to be known" and I will always be a meaningless pawn of deity I am not allowed to understand. I'd rather humankind were standing or falling on its own two feet: that would actually mean something. More than being an experiment for the amusement of a deity, at least.

That kind of general condemnation is unjustified. Belief in God can be harmful, but so can belief in any system. It's not like fascism which is inherently wrong. Religious belief does a lot of good for a lot of people.

It's not inherently wrong to be theist any more than its inherently wrong to be schizophrenic. That doesn't make religion (or any other form of illness or self-delusion) a good thing to have.

You don't have to believe in god to be chartible, and convincing someone to be chartible should not require invoking god unless they've been specifically raised to be pyschologically dependent on the belief to provide a moral center. OTOH, you do have to believe in god to kill in his name.

Tibbs

EDIT: To explicity state my meaning here, I'm saying that is someone needs a supernatural belief to feel better and give them hope, that is mental illness in and of itself. Therefore feeding that illness to make someone feel better is not a good thing, anymore than it is good when an alcoholic finds relief from drinking.

[CGP314]

One month ago, I would have said no, I do not envy the believer: I would rather know what is real. However, I just moved from the US to London. <plug>Read my Journal about it (http://www.colingregorypalmer.net/london/london.html) </plug>

I would now say that I am envious because, a religious person in my circumstances could go to the nearest church and find themselves in the middle of a supportive group of like-minded people. I do not have this luxury. Making friends, let alone friends who share atheistic beliefs, on your own in a new city is no easy task.

[Sephiroth]

Not a bit.

[cheetah]

Originally posted by CGP314
One month ago, I would have said no, I do not envy the believer: I would rather know what is real. However, I just moved from the US to London. <plug>Read my Journal about it (http://www.colingregorypalmer.net/london/london.html) </plug>

I would now say that I am envious because, a religious person in my circumstances could go to the nearest church and find themselves in the middle of a supportive group of like-minded people. I do not have this luxury. Making friends, let alone friends who share atheistic beliefs, on your own in a new city is no easy task.

Congrats on joining in on the fun here, then! There are many posters here that are from the UK and even London. They might have a gathering sometime and you could meet some non-theist potential friends! If you're interested in it, start a thread in The Lounge!

[Nira]

Jup.

In Replacement killers, the character played by Mia Sorvino say something along the lines of : I have been thinking of it for days, the one thing, the one thing that will wipe out all the shit I have done.

There is no such thing, one can not erase ones actions. The believers have redemption, forgiveness, or even Karma.

For us there is no such thing. If one hurt someone bad, does something that affects someone else maybe for the rest of their life, even if one did not realize it at the time, …

You can not take it back, one can not compensate by doing good in the future, one can not do anything but sit and watch others live with the consequence of what you have done.

At any rate, I envy them redemption.

[Howard]

Originally posted by Virgil Tibbs
But then how were the creator(s) created, and if he/she/it/they do not need a conscious external entity to create them, why would the universe need one? So this supposition answers nothing.

Speculation about the origin of the universe is just that: speculation. I might think its possible that the universe began as a quantum fluctuation, but I don't believe it must be true or is even likely to be true. The only honest answer is: "I don't know."

To a great many people, probably the majority of people, that's obviously not good enough. They want to know, or at least they want an answer. And if science can't provide one then they will turn to religion. Just because you can accept "I don't know" doesn't mean everyone can.


"Goddidit" is even less helpful because it translates to: "It can never be known." Quite frankly I find that attitude self-defeating. Applying it to the origins of the universe is no different than ancient peoples applying it to weather, IMO (and they often did for very similar reasons to what you describe).
It may not be helpful in terms of advancing human knowledge, but that's not the point here. For many people it is helpful in providing comfort and solace in times of great loss.


Comprehensible how? Anything supernatural is supposedly too complicated to ever be understood.

We're not talking about understanding some underlying principle, just the statement. A hell of a lot more people understand the concept of God than understand the concept of an infinitesimally small quantum singularity.


It gives them hope because their parents train them to believe it should. Personally, I think a universe where humanity is free to explore the entire run of it gives me more hope than being trapped in a supernatural box where "these things are not meant to be known" and I will always be a meaningless pawn of deity I am not allowed to understand. I'd rather humankind were standing or falling on its own two feet: that would actually mean something. More than being an experiment for the amusement of a deity, at least.

Most religious people are not ignorant automatons. Many are scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, writers and so forth. They are intelligent and well-educated, and have critically examined their religious beliefs. Just because they come to a different conclusion that you, doesn't mean they believe (in your words) "these things are not meant to be known." That's a prejudicial and unjustified generalization.


It's not inherently wrong to be theist any more than its inherently wrong to be schizophrenic. That doesn't make religion (or any other form of illness or self-delusion) a good thing to have.

So the majority of people in the world are delusional huh? Then why do most of the believers I know seem to function pretty well? Again prejudicial and unjustified.


You don't have to believe in god to be chartible, and convincing someone to be chartible should not require invoking god unless they've been specifically raised to be pyschologically dependent on the belief to provide a moral center. OTOH, you do have to believe in god to kill in his name.
I agree, but I don't see what that has to do with this discussion.


EDIT: To explicitly state my meaning here, I'm saying that is someone needs a supernatural belief to feel better and give them hope, that is mental illness in and of itself. Therefore feeding that illness to make someone feel better is not a good thing, anymore than it is good when an alcoholic finds relief from drinking.
You sound like the Christians who say that atheism is bereft of moral values and some kind of mental aberration.

[dimpledop]

Except that there are lot of people who believe there IS evidence that a Supreme Intelligence exists. Just the fact that there is a universe with conscious, self-aware life is evidence enough.
The existence of matter and energy does not prove the existence of a god.

And the fact that science is complex and sometimes difficult to explain also does not prove the existence of a god.

Yes, theists may say that the existence of the universe, or the existence of self-aware life, proves a deity exists. Likewise, they may say that the complexity and "beauty" of the universe/nature proves a deity exists. Again, this belief is devoid of verifiable proof. They have nothing to back up their claims, and typically expect to be taken at face value. They are expressing their opinion. I think it is proper to thank them for sharing their opinion, and (try to) move on.

One of the reasons science is so complex and, on occasion, difficult to understand, is because scientists are busy trying to back of their claims. They try to prove their hypothesis, and if it is unprovable, good scientists try to understand why. So we get even more complex explanations for why the universe behaves as it does. Just because we, as a species, don't have all the answers, and probably never will (if such a state is even possible), still does not prove that deities exist, or that any holy book should be believed literally. IMO, not swallowing everything fed to us without questioning it is an enviable quality.

The Yankees are spawns of the devil. They should all get radioactive hemorrhoids. Go Sox. This is the year.
Now if we could just get some theists, or atheists for that matter, to help the Red Sox overcome The Curse. It has long been declared that they need it! :D

[Debbie T]

Originally posted by Howard
I do… sometimes. At least the ones who aren't young Earth, Bible quoting, frothing-at-the-mouth fundamentalists (who, I think, are still in the minority, despite the fact that a lot of them seem to be running the US Government right now.)

It must be nice to have a carved-in-stone set of rules.… even though most believers don’t seem to obey their rules any more that the rest of us obey ours.

It must be nice to be absolutely certain that you're going to live forever… although, gun-to-their heads, I’ll bet most believers are just as scared of dying as the rest of us. No atheists in the foxholes? Maybe, I've never been in one; but I don't think there are many true believers there either.

Still, it must be comforting to be able convince yourself that death is not the end, that there is some Grand Plan, and some Grand Planner, who will make it all make sense. I wonder why some people can convince themselves and some people can't?

It seems life would be better if you could. I mean, I have a fair amount of self-delusion about a lot of things, but not God. Wish I did though… sometimes.

(This post was inspired by a very Christian funeral I recently attended. A good friend of mine, whom I’ll miss a lot, passed away. Most of the people there really seemed to believe that he was going to a better place. This never ceases to amaze me, and it always make me a little envious.)

I decided to answer this before I read what other's wrote. I do not envy them at all. Many of the ones I know have very deep personal problems that they appear to be trying to mask with religion.

If they are delusioned about life after death why do so many fear it? I have no fear of it and I certainly don't believe I am going to be back for more.

Nope no envy as I once was delusional about god, now I am much more secure knowing it is just a figment of the collective conscious' imagination. :rolleyes:

[Howard]

Originally posted by dimpledop
The existence of matter and energy does not prove the existence of a god.

And the fact that science is complex and sometimes difficult to explain also does not prove the existence of a god.

I never said it did. I just said they are some of the reasons why so many people believe.


Yes, theists may say that the existence of the universe, or the existence of self-aware life, proves a deity exists. Likewise, they may say that the complexity and "beauty" of the universe/nature proves a deity exists. Again, this belief is devoid of verifiable proof. They have nothing to back up their claims, and typically expect to be taken at face value. They are expressing their opinion. I think it is proper to thank them for sharing their opinion, and (try to) move on.

You are misrepresenting a great many theists. They say they believe in God based on what they see of the universe, and on personal experience, and various other reasons. They don't say they know or they have proof. Let's be fair here.


One of the reasons science is so complex and, on occasion, difficult to understand, is because scientists are busy trying to back of their claims. They try to prove their hypothesis, and if it is unproveable, good scientists try to understand why. So we get even more complex explanations for why the universe behaves as it does. Just because we, as a species, don't have all the answers, and probably never will (if such a state is even possible), still does not prove that deities exist, or that any holy book should be believed literally. IMO, not swallowing everything fed to us without questioning it is an enviable quality.

First off, I know how science works. Second, I am NOT trying to make a case for the existence of God; I've been a pretty strong atheist for as long as I can remember. I was simply responding to someone who suggested that belief in God is irrational. I don't think it is irrational - certainly not in the way that belief in a 6,000-year-old Earth, or a world-wide flood, or Creationism, is irrational. In those cases people believe something is true in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That's not the case for belief in God. I don't know why this idea is so difficult to convey.


Now if we could just get some theists, or atheists for that matter, to help the Red Sox overcome The Curse. It has long been declared that they need it! :D

I'll bet that would make a lot of doubters believe.

[Howard]

Originally posted by Debbie T

If they are delusioned about life after death why do so many fear it? I have no fear of it and I certainly don't believe I am going to be back for more.

Nope no envy as I once was delusional about god, now I am much more secure knowing it is just a figment of the collective conscious' imagination. :rolleyes:

Some people believe in life after death and some people don't. Since we don't know for sure one way or the other, I don't see where those who believe are necessarily delusional. And we're not just talking about Christians and Muslims here. A great many Hindus, and more than few Buddhists, also believe in a continuum of life - just a different kind.

[TimeGoddess]

I still want to believe that my ex will rot in hell forever. That's a comforting thought.
Other then that, no, I don't envy believers at all. I never like going to church or sunday school; I'm so relieved to be free of it!

[Virgil Tibbs]

Originally posted by Howard
To a great many people, probably the majority of people, that's obviously not good enough. They want to know, or at least they want an answer. And if science can't provide one then they will turn to religion. Just because you can accept "I don't know" doesn't mean everyone can.

And what does that say about them that they can't accept that simple answer to the point of calling (at best) a long shot the most likely truth or even the absolute truth?

This was not in response to my post but you did say the following:

You are misrepresenting a great many theists. They say they believe in God based on what they see of the universe, and on personal experience, and various other reasons. They don't say they know or they have proof. Let's be fair here.

Many (perhaps most) theists have an unquestioned belief in god as far as I can tell. They also specifically say that their beliefs are based on faith and not reason, as if this were more convincing.


We're not talking about understanding some underlying principle, just the statement. A hell of a lot more people understand the concept of God than understand the concept of an infinitesimally small quantum singularity.


As I pointed out, the statement falls apart under even mild scrutiny. A god theory does not answer questions, only defer them. This seems exceedingly obvious in my opinion. To not reach that conclusion requires some severe mental gymnastics, again in my opinion.

Most religious people are not ignorant automatons. Many are scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, writers and so forth. They are intelligent and well-educated, and have critically examined their religious beliefs. Just because they come to a different conclusion that you, doesn't mean they believe (in your words) "these things are not meant to be known." That's a prejudicial and unjustified generalization.

People with mental illnesses are not "ignorant automatons," and they usually still lead fulfilling lives in the less severe cases. I never implied anything less for people with the a touch of the supernatural bug. For that matter I've got a couple of personality disorders myself: the difference is I don't pretend they are desirable to have.

So the majority of people in the world are delusional huh? Then why do most of the believers I know seem to function pretty well? Again prejudicial and unjustified.

Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. I never said or implied theists were delusional on all subjects, just the subject of the god belief. Obviously they do (usually) function well elsewhere.


You sound like the Christians who say that atheism is bereft of moral values and some kind of mental aberration.

I'll grant you that I probably should have taken more time to spell out what I was saying. However, this is nevertheless a gross misrepresentation of my point.

Tibbs

Edit: Let me try to clarify with an example: A person might be exceedingly brave yet in almost all areas yet have an unreasoning fear of spiders they cannot control. Similarly a person who is an amazing mensa genius may still have an inability to critically examine his god belief. I'm not saying that makes someone a bad person, just mildly ill. (honestly I don't believe there is anyone in this world who is 100% sane, it is more of a journey than a destination :p )

[B. H. Manners]

I don't envy Christians and I used to be one. At one time I had a gospel memorized and around ten epistles with the idea of going into the Church of Christ ministry.


Now, I have Christians actually telling me they are envious of me. Some flat out admit I am probably right to junk it all but they have just been taught their way so long they don't think they can shake it.

[Howard]

Originally posted by Virgil Tibbs
And what does that say about them that they can't accept that simple answer to the point of calling (at best) a long shot the most likely truth or even the absolute truth?

One man's long shot is another's belief system. You can't put odds on something like that. You don’t know all the possibilities so you can't know the probabilities.


Many (perhaps most) theists have an unquestioned belief in god as far as I can tell. They also specifically say that their beliefs are based on faith and not reason, as if this were more convincing.

Of course faith is always involved, but most of the Christians I know have examined their beliefs pretty thoroughly, if not entirely objectively. I certainly wouldn't characterize their faith as unquestioned


As I pointed out, the statement falls apart under even mild scrutiny. A god theory does not answer questions, only defer them. This seems exceedingly obvious in my opinion. To not reach that conclusion requires some severe mental gymnastics, again in my opinion.
For a lot of people God is the answer to a host of otherwise unanswerable questions. As I said, people have different needs. Some of us can accept that there are no answers to certain questions, others can't. They will find answers somewhere. If it works for them, I don't see the problem… as long as they don't become rabid fundies and show up at my house.. or become the Attorney General of the US.


People with mental illnesses are not "ignorant automatons," and they usually still lead fulfilling lives in the less severe cases. I never implied anything less for people with the a touch of the supernatural bug. For that matter I've got a couple of personality disorders myself: the difference is I don't pretend they are desirable to have.

Sorry, but I just don't agree that belief in God is a form of mental illness or a personality disorder… nor is it necessarily undesirable. There are plenty of people who have made very positive changes in their lives as a result of their belief..


Let me try to clarify with an example: A person might be exceedingly brave yet in almost all areas yet have an unreasoning fear of spiders they cannot control. Similarly a person who is an amazing mensa genius may still have an inability to critically examine his god belief. I'm not saying that makes someone a bad person, just mildly ill. (honestly I don't believe there is anyone in this world who is 100% sane, it is more of a journey than a destination :p )

Well, we agree on something.

[Alan N]

I will admit that I am envious, at varying degrees at varying moments. As an ex Christian, I miss the sureness that I felt regarding life and death. This does not compel me to alter my beliefs however. Death is about life. It is about those left behind. I would venture a guess that it wasn't a dead guy that came up with the whole God/afterlife concept :) Death is such a traumatic experience for the remaining family that I don't see it as such a leap to imagine them in 'a better place' and for those traumatic moments to actually shape future beliefs. Aren't we all shaped by traumatic moments? Maybe our collective social desire to push deaths' sting beyond reach is what compels us to adopt beliefs that don't necessarily make sense. Maybe they do. No one can be certain of what death brings...until you walk in those shoes.

My certainty of belief [in lack of god] is unfortunately not as sure and sound as many on this thread appear to have attained.

[beth]

Yes, I miss feeling as if I belong. I remember what it felt like to worship, I wish I could find that feeling in something else. I miss being able to pray, thinking my prayer will be answered and believing there is a god who will heal. I still see my Christian friends and family who are happy because they can believe, but I in turn am becoming more of a cynic.

[Alan N]

Originally posted by blondegoddess
...but I in turn am becoming more of a cynic.

I can so relate with this. This can become quite the emotional ride. I think the cynicism, in me, stems from not being able to 'be myself' and be accepted for it in my circle of friends. Every member of my family is a believer, and in a recent trip back home, I felt so distanced from them that it was painful. I wanted to believe just so I could bridge the divide, if even for a moment. Early in my deconversion, I found myself doing this quite a bit, compelling myself to belief (even if shallow) just to belong. It was extremely painful. There is a definite social ostricism that occurs when you decide to leave the faith, as Jobar indicated earlier in the thread.

The pain of social exclusion from my 'prior life' is diminishing, and I find in easier as the days pass to embrace life, and not God.

[chrislee]

Do I ever envy the believers?

Not really.

The hardest time for atheists is when a loved one dies. Believers find a comfort which is denied to us.

We've all got theist loved ones. The Most Important Person In My Life is a Catholic with elderly parents, and it hurts me to think that there will come a time I won't be able to give her the comfort she gets from her religion.

[Enlighten Me]

I envy Christians that they don't have to experience the stigma associated with being an atheist. Because they embrace conventional religious thinking, they enjoy the benefit of "strength in numbers" and can continue to direct contempt and/or pity towards those of us who made the simple "mistake" of thinking for themselves. As for there being no comfort for the atheist regarding death---I find it a comfort to believe that those who die are finally enjoying the inevitable "rest" that is the natural conclusion to the cycle of life.

[Alan N]

It's like I've told my wife (who is a Christian). "I don't mind the social aspects of 'the faith'. The feeling of community, the social aspect of the faith, is phenomenal, and I would align myself with it...if it just weren't for the whole 'God, salvation and blood of Jesus thing'."

[Howard]

Originally posted by lisarea
Sometimes, it'd be nice. It'd be nice to think that I'm so freaking important I'm the center of the damned universe and there's some giant invisible superentity who has all kinds of crazy powers who lurves me SOOO much he can bend reality to my whims.
In my universe I am the most freaking important thing. If I actually believed in God, he would, at best, be a distant second.


Sometimes, life would be a hell of a lot easier if I didn't get so damned pissed off at all the crap going on around me, and that there was some kind of extrareality in which my enemies got smited and I got rewarded.

I hear ya sister.


Sometimes, I also envy people stupider than me, people smarter than me, people older or younger than me, men, "conservatives," "liberals," Nazis, full-on unapologetic assholes, people in comas, corpses, chimpanzees, rich people, poor people who don't have to do very much paperwork, and people who like Star Trek.
You lost me on Nazis, corpses and Trekkies.


So take me with a whole freaking salt lick.
Hey! I think I envy salt licks.
Depends on who's doing the licking.

[Howard]

Originally posted by Alan N
It's like I've told my wife (who is a Christian). "I don't mind the social aspects of 'the faith'. The feeling of community, the social aspect of the faith, is phenomenal, and I would align myself with it...if it just weren't for the whole 'God, salvation and blood of Jesus thing'."

I like the concept... If it weren't for all that Jesus crap, Christianity wouldn't be so bad.

[lisarea]

Originally posted by Howard
In my universe I am the most freaking important thing. If I actually believed in God, he would, at best, be a distant second.

I guess that is probably because you haven't heard about these:

http://www.losertown.org/graphics/tropicana_orange_n_cream.jpg

They're like Dreamsicles, but they have a chocolate shell. They're pretty good, I think.

At any rate, that wouldn't change the relative standing of you and God and all or anything, but instead it would make it more like:

1. Those Dreamsicle-like popsicles with chocolate on them
2. You
3. God

Originally posted by Howard

You lost me on Nazis, corpses and Trekkies.

Remember, though, it's not a permanent kind of thing. Hell, if I ALWAYS envied the religious, I'd figure a way to become one of them. Same with everything else. Sometimes, just sometimes, it'd be nice to be sure you were right all the time and to enjoy being a big Nazi with some snazzy Nazi outfit or watching Star Trek and going to little parties where you wear some kind of fake forehead and talk in clipped, nebulously Eastern European accents. Or to not care and never have to worry about anything else ever again, like a corpse.

The only rub is that you can't just slip in and out of these things, as they all require some kind of long-term or permanent commitment in order to be fully appreciated.

I think some guy once said, "But that the dread of something after the Star Trek convention--the undiscovered country, from whose bourn no traveler returns--puzzles the will, and makes us rather bear those ills we have, than fly to others that we know not of."

Originally posted by Howard
Depends on who's doing the licking.

I figure, as long as they're stupid, hooved, and have scratchy tongues, the details are irrelevant.

Ceasing to exist would consist of a long, gradual process of being eliminated by ruminant tongues.

And anyone who claims they DON'T want that is just lying.

[CGP314]

Originally posted by cheetah
Congrats on joining in on the fun here, then! There are many posters here that are from the UK and even London. They might have a gathering sometime and you could meet some non-theist potential friends! If you're interested in it, start a thread in The Lounge!

While it may be possible to meet people on the Internet, xians don't have to do that. They get large blocks of tax free (Is it that way in the UK?) land to use as their clubhouse. :(

[ohwilleke]

Originally posted by Howard
I do… sometimes. At least the ones who aren't young Earth, Bible quoting, frothing-at-the-mouth fundamentalists (who, I think, are still in the minority, despite the fact that a lot of them seem to be running the US Government right now.)

It must be nice to have a carved-in-stone set of rules.… even though most believers don’t seem to obey their rules any more that the rest of us obey ours.

It must be nice to be absolutely certain that you're going to live forever… although, gun-to-their heads, I’ll bet most believers are just as scared of dying as the rest of us. No atheists in the foxholes? Maybe, I've never been in one; but I don't think there are many true believers there either.

Still, it must be comforting to be able convince yourself that death is not the end, that there is some Grand Plan, and some Grand Planner, who will make it all make sense. I wonder why some people can convince themselves and some people can't?

It seems life would be better if you could. I mean, I have a fair amount of self-delusion about a lot of things, but not God. Wish I did though… sometimes.

(This post was inspired by a very Christian funeral I recently attended. A good friend of mine, whom I’ll miss a lot, passed away. Most of the people there really seemed to believe that he was going to a better place. This never ceases to amaze me, and it always make me a little envious.)

Sometimes, but for an entirely different set of reasons. The certain rules and afterlife are the things I don't miss.

I miss the link to history, the music, the community, the easy way to be involved in charitable service, and the child care. I also think that having a caring thoughtul person to look after the emotional needs of a group of people that he sees in context, in good times and bad, on a non-fee for service basis, is a more responsible way to provide mental health services and counseling, in most cases, than the medical model that prevails in secular mental health services and counseling.

I am not comfortable with being a Unitarian Universalist, because it is too superstitious for me, despite being better than most alternatives, but I see the attraction.

[Virgil Tibbs]

I suppose we are in danger of going around in circles, so I will try to make this my last post on the subject.

Originally posted by Howard
One man's long shot is another's belief system. You can't put odds on something like that. You don’t know all the possibilities so you can't know the probabilities.

That sounds like more of an agnostic or deist position. Are you agnostic, or just trying to convince yourself I am wrong? I'll grant you my conclusion is highly unpleasant, and I agree, but I find myself unable to discard it on that basis alone.

Personally, I don't see any more evidence for god than I do for the Invisible Pink Unicorn, and anyone who was 'agnostic' toward the IPU would likely be regarded as at least... eccentric. ;) So I do not think the positions "god is highly likely to exist" and "god is highly unlikely to exist" are both equally valid interpretations of the evidence, anymore than I would if one switched out the word god and replaced it with the IPU or Zeus or Odin, etc.

All of us, including the atheists, tend to lend God more credibility than Zeus or the IPU because we are all raised in an environment where there are lots of adherents to judaism and its two off-shoots. I see lots of atheists on this board who will argue seriously to posters who quote bible passages, but if someone were to quote Greek mythology as fact he would likely be ignored.


For a lot of people God is the answer to a host of otherwise unanswerable questions. As I said, people have different needs. Some of us can accept that there are no answers to certain questions, others can't. They will find answers somewhere. If it works for them, I don't see the problem… as long as they don't become rabid fundies and show up at my house.. or become the Attorney General of the US.

:)

I'm not saying supernaturalim is a "problem" in the sense that anything should be done about it, just that it is mildly unhealthy. People have lots of habits that are unhealthy, however.


Sorry, but I just don't agree that belief in God is a form of mental illness or a personality disorder… nor is it necessarily undesirable. There are plenty of people who have made very positive changes in their lives as a result of their belief..

Why do you think they are unable to make these changes without a theistic belief? Does the existence of god have any bearing on whether or not these changes are desirable to make?

I will of course not deny that many people are helped by theistic or supernatural beliefs to cope with their day to day lives, but is it mentally healthy to need these beliefs in order to cope? I don't think most atheists need atheism to cope (if anything it is usually a hindence), but ones that did would be equally mentally ill IMO.

I'll even go so far as to grant you this much: there are some people in this world for whom deconversion would be more unhealthy than continuing on as they are. Supernaturalism is like a prison for the mind, and after enough years one can become an "institutional man" who can't make it on the outside. If you've ever seen the movie The Shawshank Redemption (or read the short story) I'm thinking of the character Brooks as an example of this: after spending most of his life in prison, he was so afraid of the outside world that after a short time in it he killed himself so he would not have to be afraid all the time. However, the fact that he needed prison to survive does not make being in a prison good in and of itself.

Hmm... I kind of wish you had been able to convince me of your POV, but having hashed things out I am even more convinced. :(

Tibbs

[Howard]

Virgil,
The problem is, you and I are debating two different issues. I am NOT trying to offer evidence or rationale for believing in God. I have been a pretty strong atheist since I was old enough to think for myself, and I've seen nothing in almost five decades of life to change my mind.

My original point was that there are a few aspects of religious belief that I sometimes envy. But I think the vast majority of it is fabricated hogwash. I see no difference in Christians taking Communion than I do in Indians dancing around a totem pole. It’s just a lot of archaic rituals and ignorant superstitions. For some reason, a lot of people get off on that sort of thing. Why? I don't know, but it seems to work for them.

Furthermore, I do not think that simply believing in a deity is either irrational or harmful. Obviously it can be, but it is not innately so.

And I'm not trying to convince anyone of my point of view. I know better than that.

[dimpledop]

Howard, I never said you said that the existence of matter and energy proves a god exists. And I never said you said that since science is complex and sometimes difficult to explain that that proves the existence of a god. That's why I referenced a quote to begin the post. I understand that these are "reasons" some (not all) theists give for proof of a god. And they are bogus ones.


You are misrepresenting a great many theists. They say they believe in God based on what they see of the universe, and on personal experience, and various other reasons. They don't say they know or they have proof. Let's be fair here.

Plenty of theists I have met (not all) have told me, or implied, that they know a god exists based on the proof of simply existing, or the magnificence of some experience they had, or the strength of their faith, and other "reasons". These are beliefs, however, not reasons. To the people who have told me this, downright argued this with me, this was their "proof". I did not misrepresent theists. I simply didn't represent all theists, which is impossible. So I was being fair.


First off, I know how science works.
Based on previous posts, such as your mentioning The Anthropic Principle, I figured as much. But instead of trying to explain a complex theory, a simple explanation of science in general, such that I gave, might be more appropriate for the individual. Then again, maybe not. Regardless, not knowing about a scientific theory, or not entirely understanding it, does not leave a "so the deity did it" explanation as a default, and I think this should be pointed out to theists.

[Malagasy Rain]

I don't envy the believers at all. I don't want to wallow in a realm of self-delusion and selfishness anymore.

[Buddrow_Wilson]

I envy their dominance.

[Malagasy Rain]

If anything, I feel sorry for a few of them because the said few have to rely on speech that brims with hate and ignorance and an almost-inherent need to believe in something outside apparent reality.

[Howard]

Originally posted by dimpledop
Howard, I never said you said that the existence of matter and energy proves a god exists. And I never said you said that since science is complex and sometimes difficult to explain that that proves the existence of a god. That's why I referenced a quote to begin the post. I understand that these are "reasons" some (not all) theists give for proof of a god. And they are bogus ones.

I don't see that it's bogus to look at a universe that has intelligent life and think there is an intelligent designer behind it. Simplistic perhaps, but not bogus.


Plenty of theists I have met (not all) have told me, or implied, that they know a god exists based on the proof of simply existing, or the magnificence of some experience they had, or the strength of their faith, and other "reasons". These are beliefs, however, not reasons. To the people who have told me this, downright argued this with me, this was their "proof". I did not misrepresent theists. I simply didn't represent all theists, which is impossible. So I was being fair.

We don't like it when theists generalize about non-believers, so we should afford them the same courtesy.


Based on previous posts, such as your mentioning The Anthropic Principle, I figured as much. But instead of trying to explain a complex theory, a simple explanation of science in general, such that I gave, might be more appropriate for the individual. Then again, maybe not. Regardless, not knowing about a scientific theory, or not entirely understanding it, does not leave a "so the deity did it" explanation as a default, and I think this should be pointed out to theists.

Except that around here, you're preaching to the anti-choir.

[Ender Wiggin]

There was a thread on this forum a few months ago started by an atheist who went through her first death of a loved one since her deconversion. (Sorry, no time to hunt for it...)

She was relieved to find the experience to be, overall, a positive one. Unlike her xtian family members, she didn't have any unanswered questions nagging at her, such as 'why did God take him away?', 'what's he up to now?', 'when will we see him again?', 'why him instead of me?' etc. etc. She didn't have any of the guilt/ emotional trappings, and was able to accept the death (and even her sadness) as a natural part of life.

Death is one of those times when one's beliefs are put to the test, and the flaws stand out.

I don't envy them.

[AspenMama]

Reminder-- Virgil and others--

Secular Lifestyle is a forum for the support of living a Secular Lifestyle. This is not the place to debate religion but rather to find support for such topics as Howard has raised in his original OP. Please feel free to continue your debate in GRD.

---AspenMama, SL Moderator

[Virgil Tibbs]

Edit: I removed this post because of AspenMama's post above. If anyone else is interested in continuing I'll be happy to join a thread in GRD.

Tibbs

[Howard]

.. Originally posted by Ender Wiggin
There was a thread on this forum a few months ago started by an atheist who went through her first death of a loved one since her deconversion. (Sorry, no time to hunt for it...)

She was relieved to find the experience to be, overall, a positive one. Unlike her xtian family members, she didn't have any unanswered questions nagging at her, such as 'why did God take him away?', 'what's he up to now?', 'when will we see him again?', 'why him instead of me?' etc. etc. She didn't have any of the guilt/ emotional trappings, and was able to accept the death (and even her sadness) as a natural part of life.

Death is one of those times when one's beliefs are put to the test, and the flaws stand out.

I don't envy them.

Some friend's of mine lost their daughter in car accident. She was 16. That's about as devastating a loss as you can suffer. The father and I talked about it some and he said he wished he were still a believing Catholic. He thinks the pain would have been a little easier to bear. He even mentioned that he envied his believing relatives. You never know until it happens to you.

[Buddrow_Wilson]

Originally posted by Howard
..

Some friend's of mine lost their daughter in car accident. She was 16. That's about as devastating a loss as you can suffer. The father and I talked about it some and he said he wished he were still a believing Catholic. He thinks the pain would have been a little easier to bear. He even mentioned that he envied his believing relatives. You never know until it happens to you.

I've seen many people greiving for loved ones. Mostly theists and many have been quite hysterical (especially for the loss of offspring). Myself, I am not prone to such outbursts and certainly do not envy them. Basically, I have no reason to believe that theists actually do deal with death better than non-theists. We could all probably give anecdotal evidence, but my suspicion is that your belief in god(s) has little impact on the loss you feel. When someone dies, much of the mourning is for ourselves...our lives that will no longer be enriched by the person's presence. Yes, it seems logical that belief in an afterlife would alleviate this some, but in my experience, it doesn't.

[Arkus 02]

Sometimes I envy them. Usually I pity them for being so smart and so incredably stupid at the same time.

[southernhybrid]

I don't envy theists because when I was one of them, I found no comfort in that belief. Maybe it's because I was raised by conservative Xians. I don't know. I tried other theistic beliefs before reaching the conclusion that there is no god. Being an atheist has given me more peace of mind than theism ever did.


Perhaps theism helps some people cope but I'm not one of those people. I cope quite well as an atheist. I guess we're all different in that respect.

[Proxima Centauri]

Well some believers are happy with their fairy tale heaven. Far too many believers fill their lives with misery and self denial. They are terrified their sadistic God will punish them for being happy.
Far too many believers are so sh-t scared of Hell that they can't be happy. I prefer humanism any day.

:)

[Solsticin]

Sometimes I envy them, but only for the fact that I kind of miss my family at times. My father is strongly religious, and of the assembly of god (assembly of lunatics) persuasion, sadly. They don't take kindly to unbeleivers (say that with a thick redneck accent, then spit when you are done).

I do not envy their belief system simply because I think it is ridiculous. If there is a God (capital G) then he needs to show his face at some point. If I'm gonna burn in hell because I think God is a joke, then he DAMN well better make me believe otherwise. If he/she doesn't try, then he/she is an asshole, plain and simple, and not worthy of my praise anyway. This isn't a joke, it's my eternal life, right? If he/she made the rules, and loves me, then some (SOME!!!) effort should be made ....

On the topic of death ....

What is so wrong with dying as an atheist? I think it is incredibly comforting that the light goes out and you are no more. It's kind of hard to imagine a world without me (think about that for a moment and I bet you find it odd to think of a world without you too), but it WILL be without me at some point. I will just cease to be. Fertilizer for future generations. My 'rebirth' will be the tree that grows in my remains.

I'm OK with that. In fact, I prefer it to some "What if my masturbating when I was 10 keeps me out of heaven!! OH NO!!!" silly mentallity. That kinda of shit is just nuts.

[Howard]

Originally posted by Solsticin
What is so wrong with dying as an atheist? I think it is incredibly comforting that the light goes out and you are no more. It's kind of hard to imagine a world without me (think about that for a moment and I bet you find it odd to think of a world without you too), but it WILL be without me at some point. I will just cease to be. Fertilizer for future generations. My 'rebirth' will be the tree that grows in my remains. I'm OK with that.

I can’t debate your personal feelings, and I have no doubt that I, too, will die a doubter. I'm just not so OK with either my own death or the death of the people I care about. If you are, then I can see why you're not envious.

[chrislee]

Originally posted by Howard
I can’t debate your personal feelings, and I have no doubt that I, too, will die a doubter. I'm just not so OK with either my own death or the death of the people I care about. If you are, then I can see why you're not envious.

Most people, theist or atheist, are more concerned with putting their affairs in order and making sure their survivors are looked after when they're gone.

But I've heard of faked deathbed conversions by atheists to comfort a theist spouse who was terrified they would go to hell.

I've even heard of the priest/etc lying through his teeth about this afterwards telling his flock about the conversion even though he knew it was faked and why.

The flip side is the dying theist whose last act is to get an atheist spouse to promise to convert.

Both of those are worries. We're not married but the Special Lady In My Life for the last few years and I hope many more, is Catholic.

Another worry is that I won't know what is happening and they fake a deathbed conversion for me, or the last rites.

[c_ca]

Often actually.

I'm a lazy person, and trying to figure out where we get morals and values from, if not from a God or a Book, is takes a lot of processing power. A LOT. Classic stuff like "why are we here" and "what my purpose" is easily answered with religion, esp. since I'm not super-assertive.

I like having all those BIG and HARD questions answered prefab and handed to you.

Social network - I'd probably meet more girls if I went to church.
:D Plus all the cute girls at school seem to wear crosses. :banghead:

However I KNOW that there's no chance I could ever be converted, given all those weirdities in religion.

[fried beef sandwich]

The only time that I envy believers is when I'm stuck at home on a Friday night with nothing to do because I don't have any non-Christian friends in Southern California whom I can hang out with.

At least as a christian, I had something to do on friday nights.

[The Other Michael]

What did you do? Go downtown and witness to the folks out clubbing?

Sunday and Wednesday were, I thought, the two big days for doing "church stuff", but I guess some people just can't get enough of it.

cheers,
Michael

[fried beef sandwich]

Originally posted by The Other Michael
What did you do? Go downtown and witness to the folks out clubbing?
And get our asses kicked by bouncers and drunkards? :D


Sunday and Wednesday were, I thought, the two big days for doing "church stuff", but I guess some people just can't get enough of it. Yeah, see at my church, we had Sunday Church + Sunday school, midweek Bible Studies, and then on Fridays... Friday Night Fellowship, which was basically another church service (worship + sermon + stupid church games) with your age group, whether you were a high schooler, college student, young adult, or married couple, etc etc, ad nauseum.

So basically before I went to college, all my friends were from church, and subscribed to this schedule. Now that I'm back from college, they still do, but I don't. Ah well.

I miss SF.