WHat the HEck is IsLaM ??

[River]

What is Islam? Ever wonder? The following website explains Islamic philosophy really really well. I highly recommend it for anyone who cares about this world and its diverse populations. [Perhaps the very notion/being of Islam poses itself as a critique to the way we address the Bible and thus I included this in the " Biblical Criticism & History" section]- River







Islam in a Nutshell.

http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemonth/june02_index.php

[TheDiddleyMan]

True...but perhaps many of us are quite aware of what islam is, and feel no need to look further, so no more links are necessary thank you. This is Biblical Criticism and History, not preaching. General Religious Discussions might be a better place for your links, IMHO, so please, put them there.

(It would also be nice if you formatted your text correctly..none of this caps and smalls switching stuff going on....)


Diddley Man

[River]

Originally posted by TheDiddleyMan
True...but perhaps many of us are quite aware of what islam is, and feel no need to look further, so no more links are necessary thank you. This is Biblical Criticism and History, not preaching. General Religious Discussions might be a better place for your links, IMHO, so please, put them there.

(It would also be nice if you formatted your text correctly..none of this caps and smalls switching stuff going on....)


Diddley Man


coolz.....but most of what people know of Islam is from one-sided polemicists such as Ibn Warraq, and Daniel Pipes. This is a Revolutionary new introduction to Islam that very few are aware of or ...should be deprived of .

[Jeremy Pallant]

Off to General Religious Discussions.

[lpetrich]

Originally posted by River
coolz.....but most of what people know of Islam is from one-sided polemicists such as Ibn Warraq, and Daniel Pipes. This is a Revolutionary new introduction to Islam that very few are aware of or ...should be deprived of . And that page has a multi-sided view of Islam, right?

Such Islamic evangelism makes me wonder when we are going to see a "Christians for Mohammed" group, a group which maintains that there is a book which tells us what Jesus Christ was really like -- the Koran.

[River]

Originally posted by lpetrich
And that page has a multi-sided view of Islam, right?

Such Islamic evangelism makes me wonder when we are going to see a "Christians for Mohammed" group, a group which maintains that there is a book which tells us what Jesus Christ was really like -- the Koran.


Well, there is a Jewish Muslim group which is an interesting fusion, I must say.

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/

:eek:

[Jeremy Pallant]

Originally posted by River
Well, there is a Jewish Muslim group which is an interesting fusion, I must say.

When it comes to religion, I make it a point never to underestimate humanity's capacity for self-delusion. Jews for Islam is nowhere near as oddball as, for example, Heaven's Gate or the Branch Davidians. The latter, I understand, are still expecting David Koresh to return to judge humanity.

Incidentally, what do you have against people who are culturally Jewish converting to Islam, or am I misconstruing your :eek: ?

[River]

Originally posted by Jeremy Pallant

Incidentally, what do you have against people who are culturally Jewish converting to Islam, or am I misconstruing your :eek: ?

Ya , I think you misconstrued. sorry, I wasnt very clear. I think they are a cool group.....but most would :eek: because most people are used to seeing Jews and Muslims as enemies....but honestly, I like the idea of Jewish Muslims and it makes sense to me because I never really see Jews and Muslims as being that much different from each other. Judaism is probably the closest religion in the world to Islam.

[Jeremy Pallant]

Originally posted by River
Ya , I think you misconstrued. sorry, I wasnt very clear.

My bad.

Originally posted by River
I think they are a cool group.....but most would :eek: because most people are used to seeing Jews and Muslims as enemies...[/B]

Then they should study a little more history.

Originally posted by River ...but honestly, I like the idea of Jewish Muslims and it makes sense to me because I never really see Jews and Muslims as being that much different from each other. Judaism is probably the closest religion in the world to Islam. [/B]

Well, they both have an irrational aversion to pork.

[River]

Originally posted by Jeremy Pallant





Well, they both have an irrational aversion to pork. [/B]


I wouldn't say irrational...the decision might have been scientifically based. i.e swine is very similar to hu-man meat. After, the primates, pigs are the most similar to humans in terms overall body physiology and biochemistry. For example , in biology labs pigs are the candidate of choice for performing Anatomy analysis. This is because the blood-fat ratio on a pig and human are identical. The lateral number of degrees between the eyes of a pig and the facial symmetry of a human are analogous. The organ symmetry of a pig and human are very close, right down to the number of valves in the heart.....and their insulin is often used in humans.

[Jeremy Pallant]

How would mankind have figured this out scientifically three thousand years ago?

Well, at least you didn't come up with the BS about trichinosis.

So basically, you think eating pork is akin to cannibalism?

[xorbie]

A quick note on the pork aversion thing. I was brought up Jewish by not very religious parents, whose stance on the existence of God I don't quite know to this day (though I am only 18). I would describe myself as an athiest-agnostic, and am thoroughly convinced that no God would actually prohibit eating certain kinds of meat. However, I have a visceral reaction whenever I see pork, and to this day refuse to eat it, although I have tried, and love, chicken with cheese (so who knows, maybe one day bacon).

[Nowhere357]

Jeremy Pallant
How would mankind have figured this out scientifically three thousand years ago?
I suppose they may have cut open some animals.

[Jeremy Pallant]

Originally posted by Nowhere357
I suppose they may have cut open some animals.

...and from this they could figure out that "the blood-fat ratio on a pig and human are identical"?

[hinduwoman]

Islam is just another religion that is all.

[emotional]

Islam: Arabic for "submission". The goal of the Muslim: to grovel before God and perform His commands like an obedient dog. Heel, Fido! Woof!

[Inconnu]

They worship the holy hand grenade, or so I am led to believe.

[Milton]

Originally posted by Jeremy Pallant
How would mankind have figured this out scientifically three thousand years ago?

umm...you mean you don't know that the answer is "a spiritual revelation"?

[MollyMac]

I just wanted to say thank you for the link which has reassuringly confirmed everything I already knew about Islam.

[River]

Originally posted by MollyMac
I just wanted to say thank you for the link which has reassuringly confirmed everything I already knew about Islam.

:)

[River]

Originally posted by emotional
Islam: Arabic for "submission". The goal of the Muslim: to grovel before God and perform His commands like an obedient dog. Heel, Fido! Woof!


In some sense dogs and cats are better muslims than you ....for they do what their inherent nature commands. You on the other hand feel the need to dismiss your very own intrinsic nature.


-River

[River]

Originally posted by Inconnu
They worship the holy hand grenade, or so I am led to believe.

no.

[River]

Originally posted by emotional
Islam: Arabic for "submission"


Actually, the word Islam is derived from the hebrew "shalom=peace" the arabic word "silm=conditions of peace" and the aramaic word shalem=perfection, completion [ indicating a Revelation that is complete, superseding all that came before it].

Thus, Islam translates to " Submission to the Will of God and surrendering to conditions of Perfect Peace and Harmony"

[Novowels]

In some sense dogs and cats are better muslims than you ....for they do what their inherent nature commands. You on the other hand feel the need to dismiss your very own intrinsic nature. Inherent nature? I really don't think emotional's ancesters were bred for submission and domestication for the last ~13,000 years like cats and dogs.

[River]

Originally posted by Novowels
Inherent nature? I really don't think emotional's ancesters were bred for submission and domestication for the last ~13,000 years like cats and dogs.


nah, thats not what I meant. i.e Muslims are followers of the Religion Islam.....however, "muslims" are submitters of the Will of God"....this includes all of Creation, nature or anything else that is voluntarily( willingly) or involuntarily(unwillingly) submitting to G-d's Will. Humans, however are given Free Will allowing us the ability to NOT obey G-d.....( however we are still following his Will) despite the fact that we were inherently created to know G-d and to obey . Animals and Angels are obligatory muslims.

[Novowels]

So God only likes the Happy Slave[tm]. Gotcha.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't think that this interpretation makes God sound like one of the 'good guys' to me.

[River]

well we are Slaves....but


we are given

Salary, Luxury , Movies , Delicacies and other Extravagances.......


(obviously, in moderation)............so most people should be happy



;) I guess we are spoiled.

[Novowels]

Well, since you seem to have a direct line to Mr. God, can you pass along a message from me? He should understand:

LET MY PEOPLE GO.

[emotional]

River,

I dispute that God commanded humans to encircle a black stone seven times at least once a lifetime in a particular time of the year. Or that He commanded humans to fast one particular month in the year. Or any of the Five Pillars of Islam except zakaat (alsmgiving), which I do believe is something we should do.

[River]

Originally posted by emotional
River,

I dispute that God commanded humans to encircle a black stone seven times at least once a lifetime in a particular time of the year.


Perhaps, you might want to dispute " God's first House " which is also referred to in the Bible ( where Mecca is mentioned as Becca) as well as the Book of Enoch " House of My Glory". It doesnt change the fact that this house was the first House built in dedication to G-d on Earth ( making it the world's oldest religious structure). Pilgrimage to mecca is a phenomenal experience ...and one responsible for changing the Revolutionary Malcolm X as well as many other noble figures.


Here is some more information about the Kaaba.

"According to ancient Arabian traditions, when Adam and Eve were cast from Paradise they fell to different parts of the earth; Adam on a mountain on the island of Serendip, or Sri Lanka, and Eve in Arabia, on the border of the Red Sea near the port of Jidda. For two hundred years Adam and Eve wandered seperate and lonely about the earth. Finally, in consideration of their penitence and wretchedness, God permitted them to come together again on Mt. Arafat, near the present city of Mecca. Adam then prayed to God that a shrine might be granted to him similar to that at which he had worshipped in Paradise. Adam's prayers were answered and a shrine was built.

This shrine passed away during the era of the flood, and many generations later Abraham and his son Ishmael were directed to rebuild the ancient tabernacle. According to one Islamic tradition, in 1892 BC God ordered Abraham to emigrate with his son, Ishmael, and Ishmael’s mother, Hagar to the valley at Mecca. Here Hagar lived with her son in a small house, and Abraham came to visit her on occasion. Abraham was then ordered by God to make Hagar’s house into a temple where people could pray. Therefore, he demolished the house and built the Ka’ba.

God gave Abraham precise instructions concerning how to rebuild the shrine and Gabriel showed him the location. It is said that God sent a cloud to shade Abraham, and he was told to construct the shrine directly upon the shadow of the cloud, neither exceeding or diminishing its dimensions. Legends say the shrine was built from the stones of five sacred mountain: Mt. Sinai, the Mount of Olives, Mt. Lebanon, Al-Judi, and nearby Mt. Hira. Upon the completion of the shrine, Gabriel brought a magic stone for the sanctuary. Different sources speculate that this stone was a meteorite or a great white sapphire from the Garden of Eden, that it had been concealed on the nearby sacred mountain of Abu Qubays during the period of the flood, and that it was later restored to Abraham for inclusion in his version of the Ka’ba. Whatever its origin, the stone was most probably a sacred object of the pre-Islamic Arabian nomads who settled around the Zamzam spring that flows at the center of old Mecca.

Nearly all scholars trace the sanctity of Mecca to the Ka’ba edifice built at God’s express command by Abraham and Ishmael. Mention must be made, however, of the Zamzan spring and the nearby holy hills of Safa and Marwa (these hills have since disappeared under the leveling topography of modern Mecca). These geographical formations certainly predated the construction of the Ka’ba and could therefore have given birth to the original sanctity of the place. Whatever the original cause of Mecca’s sanctity, the Ka’ba was destined to become the most important ritual site of the nomadic tribes that inhabited the great Arabian deserts. "

http://www.sacredsites.com/2nd56/279.html

[River]

Originally posted by emotional
River,

I dispute that God commanded ..........Or that He commanded humans to fast one particular month in the year.


What's wrong with fasting.....new studies indicate that fasting is a very healthy procedure for humans redistributing insulin to safe and productive levels. I am sure G-d wants his children to be healthy. Also, It builds character and discipline. Ask anyone , who actually fasted.

[emotional]

Interesting account of the Kaaba here, River. Just one problemo: I don't believe Adam and Eve existed. I'm an evolutionist.


What's wrong with fasting.....new studies indicate that fasting is a very healthy procedure for humans redistributing insulin to safe and productive levels. I am sure G-d wants his children to be healthy. Also, It builds character and discipline. Ask anyone , who actually fasted.


Nothing wrong with fasting, and I did it once too, but I don't think it's a command of God. I'm a humanist, and I think all humanists are on the right track. Since God lacks nothing, there is nothing you can do to serve Him directly - neither ritual nor praise nor faith. The only law, the only thing about which you will be asked when you stand in front of God after you die, is the law of living a loving, kindly life. This alone is true religion.

[River]

Originally posted by emotional


The only law, the only thing about which you will be asked when you stand in front of God after you die, is the law of living a loving, kindly life. This alone is true religion. [/B]


And you will also be asked whether or not you insulted his name or his Representatives ( the Prophets and Messengers).

[emotional]

Originally posted by River
And you will also be asked whether or not you insulted his name


No, He doesn't ask about that. He is self-secure and doesn't care about people making fun of Him. He's not a spoilt child. It's not a good thing to do, but it's ridiculous to think you can offend God that way. The only way to offend God is to behave badly towards fellow creatures.

[River]

Originally posted by emotional
Just one problemo: I don't believe Adam and Eve existed. I'm an evolutionist.



Even scientists believe in Eve........The Mitochondrial Eve.

[River]

Originally posted by emotional


No, He doesn't ask about that. He is self-secure and doesn't care about people making fun of Him. He's not a spoilt child. It's not a good thing to do, but it's ridiculous to think you can offend God that way. The only way to offend God is to behave badly towards fellow creatures. [/B]


G-d is All-Knowing. But do YOU know ( with certainty)....what you state with confidence?

[emotional]

I believe and trust. Every time a Christian, for example, tells me of how God will burn unbelievers eternally in hell, I counter that by saying I trust God enough not to do as the Devil does. I believe God is a cut above being insulted by a few humans who make fun of Him.

[Milton]

Originally posted by emotional
The only law, the only thing about which you will be asked when you stand in front of God after you die, is the law of living a loving, kindly life. This alone is true religion.

Says you?

Ah, and with what authority do you pronounce this?

How can you say that something is, when you are only making it up? At least I have something to refer to, whenever trying to make a pronouncement.

[Milton]

Originally posted by emotional
I believe and trust. Every time a Christian, for example, tells me of how God will burn unbelievers eternally in hell, I counter that by saying I trust God enough not to do as the Devil does. I believe God is a cut above being insulted by a few humans who make fun of Him.

what devil do you speak of? I have never heard of the Devil burning people in hell... where did you get that from?

[emotional]

Originally posted by Milton
How can you say that something is, when you are only making it up? At least I have something to refer to, whenever trying to make a pronouncement.

You're talking about the Bible, right? Then your authority is something that other men made up. No better than mine, in principle.

However, I'm not making these things up. They come from spiritualist sources: near-death experiences and channelled books such as Spirit Teachings (http://www.meilach.com/spiritual/books/st/spteach.htm). Directly from the afterlife, where truth is known. Whether you choose to believe them is another matter, but know I'm not making this up.


what devil do you speak of? I have never heard of the Devil burning people in hell... where did you get that from?


No, but a God who would burn people in hell for eternity would be the Devil.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by emotional


No, He doesn't ask about that. He is self-secure and doesn't care about people making fun of Him. He's not a spoilt child. It's not a good thing to do, but it's ridiculous to think you can offend God that way. The only way to offend God is to behave badly towards fellow creatures. [/B] The way you act towards Christians with insults, mocking and ridicule falls under the category of behaving badly towards fellow creatures.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by emotional
I believe and trust. Every time a Christian, for example, tells me of how God will burn unbelievers eternally in hell, I counter that by saying I trust God enough not to do as the Devil does. I believe God is a cut above being insulted by a few humans who make fun of Him. And what do you propose God do with the people that treat Him like crap and insult Him?

[Magus55]

Originally posted by emotional
You're talking about the Bible, right? Then your authority is something that other men made up. No better than mine, in principle.

However, I'm not making these things up. They come from spiritualist sources: near-death experiences and channelled books such as Spirit Teachings (http://www.meilach.com/spiritual/books/st/spteach.htm). Directly from the afterlife, where truth is known. Whether you choose to believe them is another matter, but know I'm not making this up.



So you believe in a book from the afterlife, and near death experiences, yet you ridicule us and say what a joke the Bible is when it is based on Revelations just like your book? By what power do you deem the Bible nothing more than a myth made by men, and your "spiritual" books, directly from the afterlife?

You emotional, are a hypocrite.

[winstonjen]

Originally posted by Magus55
And what do you propose God do with the people that treat Him like crap and insult Him?

Is god so weak and insecure that he must act like a schoolyard bully?

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by Magus55
And what do you propose God do with the people that treat Him like crap and insult Him?

*raises hand*

I know this one! How about "turn the other cheek"?

*smiles proudly*

[Magus55]

Originally posted by winstonjen
Is god so weak and insecure that he must act like a schoolyard bully? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't let someone who spent their whole life denying my existence, insulting me, breaking my laws, and being an all around jerk into my home. Sinners cannot remain in Heaven, so what do you propose God do with you?

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Hedwig
*raises hand*

I know this one! How about "turn the other cheek"?

*smiles proudly* And then God wouldn't be righteous for letting law breakers go unpunished. What do you think, this is a free ride? You just spend your life calling God a sadistic monster, and breaking His laws, and then expect to just get a free ticket into paradise?

[lpetrich]

River:
Even scientists believe in Eve........The Mitochondrial Eve.

That's being rather literal-minded about names. She was named because she is the most recent ancestor of all the mitochondria of present-day humanity; she lived ~100,000 to 200,000 years ago in Africa.

Mitochondria are structures that have their own genomes, though very small ones (about 16,000 base pairs out of the 3-billion-base-pair human-genome total), and they are inherited almost exclusively in the female line. The Mitochondrial Eve had shared our planet with at least a thousand other women, as concluded from genetic-diversity studies -- women whose mitochondrial lineages have died out from their descendants eventually being only sons -- if any.

There is also a "Y-chromosome Adam", on account of Y chromosomes being inherited exclusively in the male line. He apparently lived more recently than the mitochondrial Eve.

At this point, I'm sure that pseudoscientific Muslims will come up with Koranic or Hadithic "proof" that humanity had originated in Africa.

River:
Perhaps, you might want to dispute " God's first House " (the Kaaba; lots of Kaaba fairy tales snipped)

I doubt that any archeologists have ever been invited to Mecca to find out how far back its habitation goes, however.

But it will be difficult to compete with such religious architecture as

some parts of Catal Huyuk (western Turkey, ~5000 BCE)

and possibly

Cro-Magnon cave paintings (as far back as 30,000 years BCE)

[lpetrich]

Originally posted by Magus55
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't let someone who spent their whole life denying my existence, insulting me, breaking my laws, and being an all around jerk into my home. ... Except that most agnostics and atheists are not the boors that Magus seems to think we are.

And I'm sure that an omnimax being would have a bit more magnanimity than what Magus describes; Magus seems to believe that god has a very thin skin.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by lpetrich
Except that most agnostics and atheists are not the boors that Magus seems to think we are.

And I'm sure that an omnimax being would have a bit more magnanimity than what Magus describes; Magus seems to believe that god has a very thin skin. No I don't. He gets insulted and ridiculed by millions if not billions of people, yet He still lets your live your life without judging you already. He has every right to just wipe everyone off the face of the Earth, but He is holding out for people that still will come to salvation.

God is perfect, therefore anything not perfect is offensive to Him. Let me ask you this. Would you think it appropriate for a Judge to just let a criminal go, and invite the criminal into His home for dinner and drinks? Of course not, because He is obligated to do whats best for society, and carry out justice. I don't want people in Heaven who don't want to be there or don't care about God. And neither does He. Thats why He gave you free will.

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by Magus55
And then God wouldn't be righteous for letting law breakers go unpunished. What do you think, this is a free ride? You just spend your life calling God a sadistic monster, and breaking His laws, and then expect to just get a free ticket into paradise?

Do you know me? How do you know how godly or un-godly my actions are?

[Doctor X]

You just spend your life calling God a sadistic monster, . . .

Since when does devoting a life to truth result in damnation?

--J.D.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Hedwig
Do you know me? How do you know how godly or un-godly my actions are? Because I know what God defines as unrighteous and sinful, and no human except Jesus has ever been sinless.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Doctor X
Since when does devoting a life to truth result in damnation?

--J.D. Case in point.

[winstonjen]

Originally posted by Magus55
Because I know what God defines as unrighteous and sinful, and no human except Jesus has ever been sinless.

Yet being 'just', your god will forgive any amount of crimes against humanity and himself if we accept Jesus. Charming. This is what encourages Christians to commit crimes - because no matter what they do, they cannot get to heaven on their own, but have Jesus on your side and no crime is too horrific to send you to hell. :boohoo:

Case in point.

The case is that you have no point.

[Nowhere357]

Originally posted by Magus55
Because I know what God defines as unrighteous and sinful, and no human except Jesus has ever been sinless.
So being born means a person is sinful to God.

Doesn't this mean that God is offended by our existence?

[Doctor X]

Originally posted by Magus55

Case in point.

So you are damned?

How?

You have not written the truth.

Because I know what God defines as unrighteous and sinful. . . .

Treatment exists that can supress "the voices."

--J.D.

[winstonjen]

Originally posted by Doctor X
Treatment exists that can supress "the voices."

--J.D.

And it's called logic!

These are from missus_gumby's website

http://www.english-atheist.co.uk/win.jpg

http://www.english-atheist.co.uk/dearjesus.jpg

[Diadectes]

Because I know what God defines as unrighteous and sinful, and no human except Jesus has ever been sinless.

Off topic, I know, but I have asked you this before, Magus, and as usual you conveniently ignored it, but if Jesus was sinless please explain the point of the temptation in the wilderness. If he was incapable of sin, then how could he be tempted to commit sin?

[emotional]

Oh, Magu, Magu, Magu ... when will you finally be freed from your bondage to Satan? You're worshipping Satan and you don't even realise it. Indeed, Satan does masquerade as an angel of light ... or as a god of Bible.

When you meet the True God - and it's not the god of the Bible - you'll regret your every Christian moment. He'll teach you love, tolerance, true justice and ... the fact that evolution is true! (because that's what He did, that's how He created).

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Diadectes
Off topic, I know, but I have asked you this before, Magus, and as usual you conveniently ignored it, but if Jesus was sinless please explain the point of the temptation in the wilderness. If he was incapable of sin, then how could he be tempted to commit sin? Because Jesus was human and was able to be tempted just like us. The only difference being, Jesus doesn't give in to temptation. He ignored the temptation and remained sinless.

[River]

Originally posted by lpetrich

Such Islamic evangelism makes me wonder when we are going to see a "Christians for Mohammed" group, a group which maintains that there is a book which tells us what Jesus Christ was really like -- the Koran.


Guess what .....such a group exists !!!!.......;)


www.christiansformuhammad.org/

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by Magus55
Because I know what God defines as unrighteous and sinful, and no human except Jesus has ever been sinless.

I maintain that I'm quite sinless. I was baptized when I was fourteen. According to my particular church, that means that whatever sins I might be guilty of then or in the future are taken care of through that proverbial "washed in the blood of the lamb" thing. (Ick!) My particular church also tended towards the policy of "once saved always saved". By that church's rationale, I am sinless.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Hedwig
I maintain that I'm quite sinless. I was baptized when I was fourteen. According to my particular church, that means that whatever sins I might be guilty of then or in the future are taken care of through that proverbial "washed in the blood of the lamb" thing. (Ick!) My particular church also tended towards the policy of "once saved always saved". By that church's rationale, I am sinless. Um no you aren't. None of us are sinless, we are now just saved sinners. Baptism in water doesn't do diddly squat for you in relation to salvation. And I believe in OSAS too, but that doesn't make you sinless. You still sin, and as a now proclaimed Atheist, you don't live your life for Jesus anymore so you definately aren't sinless.

[Novowels]

That explains the "always saved" bit.

[Nowhere357]

Originally posted by Magus55
Um no you aren't.
Do you speak for God?

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by Magus55
Um no you aren't. None of us are sinless, we are now just saved sinners. Baptism in water doesn't do diddly squat for you in relation to salvation. And I believe in OSAS too, but that doesn't make you sinless. You still sin, and as a now proclaimed Atheist, you don't live your life for Jesus anymore so you definately aren't sinless.

Actually, after ceasing to "live my life for Jesus" I started living my life for the God and Goddess. I was a neo-pagan for several years with an emphasis on shamanism. Sin doesn't exist in neo-paganism. So I was sinless then too.

But back to what I originally said about being sinless...are you calling my pastor a liar?

[Diadectes]

Because Jesus was human and was able to be tempted just like us. The only difference being, Jesus doesn't give in to temptation. He ignored the temptation and remained sinless.

:confused: but he must have been capable of sin, otherwise what was the point in tempting him????

Surely the question isn't that difficult to understand, Magus. How can someone who is sinless be tempted? The desire to give in to temptation wouldn't exist.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Diadectes
:confused: but he must have been capable of sin, otherwise what was the point in tempting him????

Surely the question isn't that difficult to understand, Magus. How can someone who is sinless be tempted? The desire to give in to temptation wouldn't exist. Jesus had no desire to give in to temptation - hence why He never did. Yes, i'd say His human side had the ability to sin, but His divinity made sure it never happened.

[Diadectes]

Jesus had no desire to give in to temptation - hence why He never did. Yes, i'd say His human side had the ability to sin, but His divinity made sure it never happened.


So he wasn't sinless per se, since the ability to sin existed in his human side, but was tempered by his divine side. Right. Thank you, that does make it a little clearer.

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by Magus55
Jesus had no desire to give in to temptation - hence why He never did. Yes, i'd say His human side had the ability to sin, but His divinity made sure it never happened.

So why couldn't god create us all like that?

[Doctor X]

winstonjen:

Bloody funny! What is the link to that?

The ceaseless apologetics reminds me of an old brother trying to solve a "problem" posed to him in religion class. The class took the advice of George Carlin and took "a basic sin and surrounded it with the most bizarre circumstances imaginable and end with 'Is it a sin den fadda?'"

We chose adultery.

That the apologetics contradict themselves never seems to disuade the apologist.

Thus, Junior's attempt to "get out of it" is not a yielding to temptation, apparently.

Thus, denying salvation to good men is not a sin.

Apparently, black is also white.

--J.D.

[River]

Magus 55,

The Reason Jesus Christ was "Sinless".....is because he didn't have to die for all those unworthy Sinners and thus he did not have to Represent them.

[Mageth]

Magus said:

Because Jesus was human and was able to be tempted just like us.

And then:

Jesus had no desire to give in to temptation - hence why He never did. Yes, i'd say His human side had the ability to sin, but His divinity made sure it never happened.

Huh? Then he was not able to be tempted "just like us". No desire to give in to temptation == no temptation, Magus.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Mageth
Magus said:

Because Jesus was human and was able to be tempted just like us.

And then:

Jesus had no desire to give in to temptation - hence why He never did. Yes, i'd say His human side had the ability to sin, but His divinity made sure it never happened.

Huh? Then he was not able to be tempted "just like us". No desire to give in to temptation == no temptation, Magus. Um no it doesn't Mageth. I can tempt you with a cookie, but if you choose not to take the cookie and eat it, you are resisting temptation - just because you chose not to take the cookie doesn't mean you weren't tempted to. Jesus resisted all temptation placed before Him because He had no desire or reason to give in to that temptation and sin.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by River
Magus 55,

The Reason Jesus Christ was "Sinless".....is because he didn't have to die for all those unworthy Sinners and thus he did not have to Represent them. Um, according to the Quran, not the Bible. I don't follow the Quran.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Hedwig
So why couldn't god create us all like that? Because that would require all of us to be divine.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by Magus55
Um no it doesn't Mageth.

Umm, yes it does, Magus.

I can tempt you with a cookie, but if you choose not to take the cookie and eat it, you are resisting temptation - just because you chose not to take the cookie doesn't mean you weren't tempted to.

But that's not what you're saying. You're saying I (or Jesus) would have no desire to eat the cookie (don't like cookies, I guess), and no reason to eat the cookie (full, or at least not starving). With no desire or reason, there would be no temptation to eat the cookie. The presence of a cookie doesn't equate to temptation to eat the cookie, any more than the presence of a dead rat equates to temptation to eat the dead rat.

Jesus resisted all temptation placed before Him because He had no desire or reason to give in to that temptation and sin.

If he had no desire or reason, then he was not tempted, and thus there was no temptation.

In any event, if, through his godly nature, he had no desire or reason to "eat the cookie", it is not true that "Jesus was human and was able to be tempted just like us" because, as humans we do have desires and reasons to give in to temptations, to eat the cookie, and thus Jesus was not able to be tempted "just like us." Jesus had no desire or reason to eat cookies, but I do; therefore, Jesus will not be tempted to eat cookies, but I will.

[Demigawd]

Originally posted by Magus55
Because that would require all of us to be divine.

True, we can't all be Divine:

http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/23/23_images/pink_divine.jpg

[Mageth]

Originally posted by Magus55
Because that would require all of us to be divine.

No it wouldn't.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by Demigawd
True, we can't all be Divine:

http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/23/23_images/pink_divine.jpg

Damn, Demigawd, I almost used an exemplary dog turd instead of a dead rat in my post about cookie temptation. :p

(Let's see who gets that...)

[winstonjen]

Originally posted by Doctor X
winstonjen:

Bloody funny! What is the link to that?


Glad you like it. The main page is www.english-atheist.co.uk

And here is Magus' "thought" process for Apologetics:

http://atheist.8k.com/flowchart14.jpg

The main page for that is atheist.8k.com (I think) Ask Silent Dave for more details.

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by Magus55
Because that would require all of us to be divine.

Well, aren't we instructed to be like god anyway?

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by Mageth
Damn, Demigawd, I almost used an exemplary dog turd instead of a dead rat in my post about cookie temptation. :p

(Let's see who gets that...)

*chokes on her sandwich and falls out of her chair*

I got it. :D

[River]

I hope everyone found the link informative