No afterlife in Taoism?

[triplew00t]

In my quest to find a religion that lacked an afterlife belief, I found (I think) Taoism. Any resident Taoists here of the more classical, philosophical variety? Can anyone verify whether or not Taoism (philosophical) accepts death as the final end of a person in the sense of the consciousness, perceptions and ego, atleast?

Nero

[andy_d]

Most Taoists, AFAIK, hold to the system of reincarnation. However, it's not a terribly important issue to them. The emphasis is on the here and now, rather than theoretical events in the future.

[emotional]

Hey, triplew00t, what was wrong about simple godless materialism? You really feel a need to worship something or have a religious belief?

Just curious.

[triplew00t]

Emotional,

For the most part, yes. I find its more of a feeling of belonging and a center of life to have a philosophy to hold to. But on the same level, I am atheistic for the most part, but more importantly than that, do not believe in an afterlife. I can accept gods, I think, so long as there is no life after death or reincarnation. Don't ask me why.

Nero

[emotional]

Originally posted by triplew00t
I can accept gods, I think, so long as there is no life after death or reincarnation.

Just the opposite of my situation: I can accept no gods, but I can't accept no afterlife. The God I do believe in is pretty much an absentee landlord - the God of Deism, awe-inspiring, but not one I can really worship or pray to.

[Milton]

Originally posted by emotional
Just the opposite of my situation: I can accept no gods, but I can't accept no afterlife. The God I do believe in is pretty much an absentee landlord - the God of Deism, awe-inspiring, but not one I can really worship or pray to.

And I am the best of both worlds...;)

I believe in a God, and an afterlife. :D

[tribalbeeyatch]

Have you considered punting the god belief as well as the afterlife? You should look into Zen Buddhism, if you haven't already.

[emotional]

Originally posted by Milton
And I am the best of both worlds...;)

I believe in a God, and an afterlife. :D

What sort of god? The Christian god?

[Milton]

Originally posted by emotional
What sort of god? The Christian god?

Is this a true question or just some kind of joke or a setup?

Of course I am a Christian.

[Mageth]

Is this a true question or just some kind of joke or a setup?

Of course I am a Christian.

That seemed like a perfectly acceptable, "true" question to me. After all, there is more than one god that promises an afterlife.

You could just as well have answered the question "I'm a Muslim", for example.

[emotional]

Originally posted by Milton
Is this a true question or just some kind of joke or a setup?

Of course I am a Christian.

It's a true question, not some kind of joke or setup, as the Basic Beliefs field in your profile is empty.

[Milton]

Originally posted by Mageth
Is this a true question or just some kind of joke or a setup?

Of course I am a Christian.

That seemed like a perfectly acceptable, "true" question to me. After all, there is more than one god that promises an afterlife.

You could just as well have answered the question "I'm a Muslim", for example.

That would only be true if emotional had not been in discussions with me before. I have been posting on a daily basis for the past week or more. I have posted more than ten times, I am sure, in threads where my Christianity should have been obvious. (At least the idea that I believe in the Christian God, if nothing else.)

[Milton]

Originally posted by emotional
It's a true question, not some kind of joke or setup, as the Basic Beliefs field in your profile is empty.

It's just that I have posted several times, and I expected you to already know this.

[triplew00t]

I would love to become a Zen Buddhist, but all of the ones I know of believe, in some form or another, in reincarnation and the continuation of life after death. If you know of any specific school that denies this, please let me know.

Nero

[kalamasutta]

While it is true that rebirth/reincarnation forms a backdrop to the buddhist faith, at least as it manifests as a "Religion", there are fundamental texts that advocate what in practice is an agnostic position.................for example Majjhima Nikaya, Suttas 2 and 63, from the Theravada tradition.

".................shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I become in the future.............." According to the texts, such questions are "attending unwisely" and will inevitably lead to wrong views. "Attending wisely" is to consider....."this is suffering"......."this is the origin of suffering"........."this is the cessation of suffering"......."this is the way that leads to the cessation of suffering". This is in accord with the words of the Buddha........"I teach this and this alone, suffering and the ending of suffering".

"After death a Buddha exists - I have left undeclared. After death a Buddha does not exist - I have left undeclared. After death a Buddha both exists and does not exist - I have left undeclared. After death a buddha neither exists nor does not exist - I have left undelcared. And why............because it is unbenificial, it does not belong to the fundamentals of the holy life............"

Personally I would agree with the words of the Buddhist writer Stephen Batchelor who is an agnostic towards "rebirth"............he states that such teachings are all part of the "metaphysics of hope and fear"..........."Agnosticism is no excuse for indecision. if anything, it is a catalyst for action; for in shifting concern away from a future life and back to the present, it demands an ethics of empathy rather than a metaphysics of hope and fear." (Buddhism Without Beliefs"

(As far as Zen is concerned, what seems fundamental would agree with the texts above.............. a refusal to affirm or deny, both attitudes being part of the dual world of thought that must be "transcended" .........in favour of living in the here and now with total awareness)

Derek

[andy_d]

Originally posted by triplew00t
I would love to become a Zen Buddhist, but all of the ones I know of believe, in some form or another, in reincarnation and the continuation of life after death.

It's a central principle of Buddhism that it is not required to take on any beliefs or ideas which do not ring true to your own judgement.

You can be a Buddhist and not believe in rebirth. In fact, it would be closer to the teachings of the historical Buddha to discount rebirth if you had doubts than it would be to believe in it simply because it is traditional.

I personally have no damn clue what happens when we die, and know a lot of other Buddhists who don't either :)

[kalamasutta]

Yet the Buddha was not a strict agnostic himself. He did claim to know many things.....but these he saw and understood with direct insight and understanding. His attitude seemed to be that until the causes of suffering/dukkha were eradicated within us then our beliefs/wishes/assumptions would merely be predjudices based upon desire, ignorance and conditioning.

[DigitalChicken]

Originally posted by triplew00t
In my quest to find a religion that lacked an afterlife belief, I found (I think) Taoism. Any resident Taoists here of the more classical, philosophical variety? Can anyone verify whether or not Taoism (philosophical) accepts death as the final end of a person in the sense of the consciousness, perceptions and ego, atleast?

Nero

You need to differentiate between religious taoists and philosophical ones.

Philosophical ones would find the idea of an afterlife to generally be laughable.

Religious ones, which in my mind is a perversion of the intent of the writings, offer claims of immorality and reincarnation.

DC

[tribalbeeyatch]

While it is convenient to lump the various schools of Buddhism, it often leads to misunderstanding. There are great differences between some of them, especially with respect to 'mystical beliefs'.

[kctan]

IIRC, Daoism only have immortality. No reincarnation.

Reincarnation & immortality (both at the same time) is something most likely practised by followers of Daoism which got mixed with Buddhism. How you would classify such practisioners is up to you.

[Miss Piggy]

Originally posted by kctan
IIRC, Daoism only have immortality. No reincarnation.


What does "immortality" mean in the Daoist context? Do they believe that dead people go into heaven etc.?

[triplew00t]

As digitalchicken said, I think. I find that the philosophical branch practically ridicules those who believe in afterlife, reincarnation or even physical immortality. The idea of physical immortality seems to have crept into the beliefs later from folk lore, followed by spirits, demons and magic. Some schools of religious taoism then picked up reincarnation from Buddhists migrating to China.

I am a follower of classical, philosophical taoism. Life has a beginning, so it has an ending. But on the same level, its all just a part of the flow of things. So death is to neither be looked forward to, nor feared. To think we are above death, above the course of nature is the ultimate blaspheme.

Nero

[emotional]

Originally posted by triplew00t
So death is to neither be looked forward to, nor feared.


This I really can't understand. To me, if death is indeed the end of everything, it is the thing to be most feared of all. This has been so all my life, ever since I was told about death. The idea that death is the end of all makes me scream with uncontrollable fear.


To think we are above death, above the course of nature is the ultimate blaspheme.


I believe in life after death. Since I also believe in biological evolution, I believe in life after death for all conscious living organisms (cats and dogs and beetles as well as humans).

It is by faith I triumph over death.

[kctan]

Originally posted by Miss Piggy
What does "immortality" mean in the Daoist context? Do they believe that dead people go into heaven etc.?

No. In Daoistic context, immortality means one can enhance the life span of oneself indefinitely meaning one will never die literally. One will continue to age but one will never die not because of illness nor accident.

The way can be achieved by 2 means. One is thru the usual meditation & finding out the truth in Dao while the other is thru immortality 'pills' giving rise to alchemy in the chinese sense (actually 2 goals here one is for immortality while the other is to turn 'stone' into gold).

There are numerous stories et al detailing the epics of people attaining immortality from historical scribes (yes, it can be found in Chinese historical records) to folk lores.

[andy_d]

My understanding of the Taoist obsession with immortality was not to obtain eternal life on earth, but merely to prolong life for long enough for the practitioner to become advanced enough to be able return to the source.

At that point the physical body would be left behind and, for all intents and purposes, would die.

Is this not the aim of the life-extending practices?

[wandererfromtx]

Originally posted by andy_d
My understanding of the Taoist obsession with immortality was not to obtain eternal life on earth, but merely to prolong life for long enough for the practitioner to become advanced enough to be able return to the source.

At that point the physical body would be left behind and, for all intents and purposes, would die.

Is this not the aim of the life-extending practices?

Daoist immortality is just that, to prolong life in this physical world to get a better understanding of the ultimate truth, or at least what they believed was the truth at that time.
Many stories have been told about Daoist Sages living to be several hundred years old, and while many Daoist practitioners lived long healthy life’s, the average life span was not real long. Also the government, in those time rewarded long life with gifts and money, as a person who lived a long life was considered a valued treasured of wisdom. So the practice of naming their children and grandchildren with the same name and doctoring birth certificates was common.

[emotional]

It sounds a bit like transhumanism. :eek:

[triplew00t]

I for the most part love the ideas of Zen masters who think reincarnation crept into Buddhism later (so they think death is the end of consciousness). Kind of the "waves on a sea" idea of it. Your material goes back to the earth. Your actions are continued on forever in a chain (ala Chaos Theory). Taoists, of the philosophical school also hold a similar view. Which is not suprising seeing as Chan Buddhism was originally a mix of Buddhism and Taoist teachings.

I like Taoism (in the original, philosophical form) and Zen (Buddhism in (in my opinion) the original form, minus the mystical side of Buddhism that dominates the Tibetian school, including reincarnation beliefs) because they offer the comfort of real life. Taoism says "you are not special, you are just like everything else. Do not resist the way of nature, and do not fight against it if you can help it. As for death, why fear death? Every living thing has gone that way before, and will after. You are just like them. Why do you think you are special and different?" Zen says, simply, "Be here now, be there later". Both are wonderful comfort when I catch myself on a mental rampage because of fear of death. I stop, center myself, breathe calmly and think of these ideas. They help. Eventually, I hope I can train my mind not to even bother with the fear, after I push it away each time. Or maybe by accpeting it, but not attacking it I can overcome it better. Whatever means, I am doing better working with these 'religions' than I have with any other.

Nero

[kctan]

Originally posted by triplew00t
Eventually, I hope I can train my mind not to even bother with the fear, after I push it away each time. Or maybe by accpeting it, but not attacking it I can overcome it better. Whatever means, I am doing better working with these 'religions' than I have with any other.

Nero

Think of death as something leading to a new beginning. In the line of "At the end of every ending is a new beginning". Look forward to the new beginning whenever you ventured into the ending.

[emotional]

Originally posted by kctan
Think of death as something leading to a new beginning.

He doesn't want to think of death as a new beginning, he wants to believe death is the end of all.

[kctan]

Originally posted by emotional
He doesn't want to think of death as a new beginning, he wants to believe death is the end of all.

This won't sit well with his taste in Daoism though. Immortality in an everlasting cycle of ends & beginnings. A school of thought in the Dao.

:D

[triplew00t]

Once again, as best as I can tell, the original philosophical school of Taoism views death as the end of our personal existance. Only later were other ideas of life after death added. The flow of nature continues unabated, our parts go to new beings and our actions live on in an infinite chain of cause and effect, but we, as perceiving beings, wont be around to know it.

I find others of this same view both in Philosophical Taoism and certain Zen masters.

I want a religion that teaches to live in the now, to accept the flow of life and death without fighting it, and to not fear. But I do not want a religion that views life as unending (in the personal, I never die, sense. A pantheistic view of it is fine).

Nero

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

first, let me offer my greetings as i'm a new forum member :)


there are two main traditions of Taoism that continue today, a deriviative of the religious Taoism that was repleat with Gods/Goddesses and various other immortal beings. it is from this tradition that the "physcial immortality" teachings were derived.

we also have the Alchemical traditions that are generally split into the Northern Complete Reality School and the Souther Complete Reality School, with an emphasis being different between the two. the Alchemical traditions all roundly as false teachings and byways the practice of physical immortality.

many teachers, such as Lui-I Ming, also discount the waterwheel exercise as a minor technique not be be bothered with.

in any event, i've found the Northern Complete Reality School to be quite wonderful and thorough and it provides, in my opinion, the most complete form of Taoism today.