Thinking of becoming a Christian again.

[beth]

As a Christian, I had a very active social life. I had many friends from church and everydaylife. I went to a women's group every Wednsday morning. Got together with the ladies from church and did Tai Chi. I was respected and almost everyone looked up to me. People from all over called for advice and prayer and my family looked up to me. My marriage was finally getting better and we were in love and very happy, having passed all the previous obsticles from previous years and our faith in God bonded us.

Since my atheism, I have become isolated. I no longer have the support structure of my friends because we no longer stand on common ground, I no longer have a social group to attend, I have lost the respect of almost everyone(including people who are not Christians, and well, new marriage problems have arisen. My family has made me a joke, and I am now the black sheep, I have even surpassed the one crack head that we have in our family; my mother hasn't even called me to wish me a happy birthday, my birthday was a week ago. I was also asked to not be a cheerleading coach. All this was because I was honest about the fact that I am no longer a Christian and have atheistic beliefs. This has got to be the most traumatic cycle that I have experienced in my life.

I want my life back. I want to be liked again and have friends to call. I miss others calling me for advice. I miss my family looking up to me and respecting me. I wanna sing again, I used to sing in church and people would cry because they said I sang like an angel. I miss the feeling I felt in my soul when I sang in worship with all of my heart. I want unity in my home again. I said my vows many years ago, meaning them. I grew up without a dad, having step-fathers to raise me. Only now do I have a close bond with one of them, I do not want that for my kids. I do not want to risk a pedophile to come into my life to abuse my kids, they are safe with mommy and daddy.

My sister in law might be dying and doesn't know I don't believe. She is looking to me for prayer and support. My mother-in-law is looking to me as she sees her daughter struggle in her fight to get better. My mother-in-law has an auto-immune disease and she fears that is is coming out of remission, she looks to me for hope and inspiration. She looks to me for comfort as she sees her father struggling with cancer. I am ready to say the hell with it.

Honesty has only brought me pain and disharmony. It has nearly ended a twelve year marriage. It has nearly driven me mad with the guilt of knowing how it has divided my family and with the loneliness of my isolation. I think I may lie. I think I will go back to my former life. At least Christianity filled my life with something. It allowed for me to have some sort of support structure. It gave my husband a peace knowing that his wife was praying and it made my family proud that they had such a righteous woman in the family. Christianity gave me a voice to soar with in song.

So, I honestly do not know that living in truth is as good as living a lie. Perhaps if I pretend long enough, I will be able to convince myself to believe again.

[Enlighten Me]

Beth---I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, but I don't see how you could "pretend" to be a Christian, even though you feel you would recover some of the benefits you have lost. Can't you find a secular outlet for your singing?
...a community T'ai Chi exercise class?....a women's club or political organization that offers social events?

Do you really want to rejoin an organization that shuns, diminishes, and disrespects people based on the conclusions they reach after honest inquiry and reflection? ...an organization that discourages independent thought?

Hey, I understand where you're coming from (I miss those potluck dinners), but can't you find a different way to combat the sense of loss that you are experiencing?

[lpetrich]

You may want to check out the Unitarian Universalist Association (http://www.uua.org) -- it's the sort of church that's likely to accept you.

[emotional]

Originally posted by beth
So, I honestly do not know that living in truth is as good as living a lie. Perhaps if I pretend long enough, I will be able to convince myself to believe again.

Are you absolutely certain you can do this? It's not as easy as it sounds. Especially if you've been reading infidel material over the last period.

Also, are you sure you want to go back to believing the majority of humanity is condemned to eternal torture? Can you live peacefully with that thought in mind? For all I found attractive in Christianity ("triumph over death with Jesus", yay!), there is no way I could accept a religion that sets such a sad ending for most of mankind.

Do what you feel is right, but it's difficult to turn the clock back, and you've been exposed to the fact that non-Christians can be nice people. You may find yourself singing in church and then dawning upon you, "but I don't really believe this!". You may find yourself looking at your former atheist friend Jones and thinking, "well, I like him, but without Jesus, he's going to burn in hell for all eternity". From my point of view, I wouldn't be happy at all.

[Enlighten Me]

P.S. Beth---Consider volunteerism as a means of overcoming the stigma associated with being an "outed" atheist. Also, you CAN offer hope and comfort to the sick and dying. I'll bet a book on hospice care would educate you about how to do just that without revealing your own beliefs.

[DigitalChicken]

beth,

I sympathize with you greatly.

Your situation strikes at the heart of all of our problems. You've jsut expressed a microcosm of our problems.

Your situation is exactly why non-believers need to get together to form social organizations and worry so much less about critisizing others religious beliefs and wether "In God We Trust" is on our money.

It is why groups like the FFRF and American Atheists only scratch the surface of the needs of non-believers.

Its why groups like The Church of Freethought (http://church.freethought.org) were formed and at least try to take up this slack.

Your situation is exactly why movements like the "Brights" is misguided.

Until non-belief groups offer solutions to your situation then we haven't worked hard enough and we aren't solving our real problems.

DC

[girlwriter]

Beth,

I'm very sorry, it sounds like you are struggling tremendously. I agree with the advice that others have offered to get involved with some secullar outlets for your talents, energies and social urges.

Also, reading your post, I am left with this question: Have *you* really changed? It sounds to me that you have changed your beliefs, but you are the same person you always were. The nature of your relationships hasn't changed, it has merely been revealed. It seems to me that your only options are to forge ahead and hope that others in your life can eventually accept you for who you are, not what you believe, or you can base your relationships on lies. You're proposing giving in to emotional blackmail. They want you to believe what they believe, and are willing to shun and judge you for following your own instincts. It sounds like these relationships were rewarding while you believed, but how rewarding is a relationship with a person who witholds affection based on your honesty?

You did not mess eveything up by being honest about your lack of belief. Responsability for the success of a relationship goes two ways. Your family/husband/freinds must realize this and meet you in the middle if these relationships are to be anything other than disfunctional, no matter what you do.

I wish you luck, I know this must be extremely difficult for you.

[cliff999]

Be happy. If you were happier as a Christian, go back to that life, if possible. Then again, you could make things worse by returning but failing to embrace the belief system. That would leave you with nothing. Not an easy choice.

[ex-preacher]

Hang in there, Beth! I went through a very similar transition and things did get better. I sometimes miss my "Christian life" but I don't see how I could make myself believe something which I don't really believe. You can't make yourself believe in Santa Claus again, can you?

I'm reminded of the quote by GB Shaw "The fact that a believer is happier than an unbeliever is no more to the point than the fact that a drunk man is happier than a sober one."

I also recommend checking out the UU Church, though it will not completely replace what you have lost.

[Postcard73]

Beth,
I'm sorry things are so tough right now. Like some other people said, I can't tell you what to do. I can tell you that I had a very similar experience. I grew up Presbyterian, but it never really took. While I was in college, I became involved with the Southern Baptists, and for the next several years, I was a dynamo of xian energy. I went to church every Wednesday, Sunday morning, and Sunday night. I also attended Sunday school every week. I was heavily involved with the youth group and was the group coordinator during the summer before my senior year. I participated in three different mission trips and even spent time handing out tracts and witnessing to people in Roanoke. Needless to say, I was highly respected and well-known within the church. It had over six-thousand members, so I always had something to do and someone to do it with...

With that in mind, I will tell you that I only have two friends in Roanoke now, and I've been deconverted for several years. Those two friends are married to each other, and it isn't unusual for me to spend a Friday or Saturday night at home alone. Nonetheless, I do not question my decision to escape the church. The people I knew there were fine when I approached them as another xian, but they usually strike me as some combination of stupid, ignorant, self-righteous, and/or naive when I see them now. While I may get lonely, I know that for me, being around a bunch of people I don't respect would be much worse.

Here's a few things to consider:

First, if your husband loves you, then he will support you. I cannot deny that I'm divorced, and my dying faith played an important role in the end of my marriage. However, in the end, it was my super-xian wife having an affair with one of my best friends that destroyed the marriage. All my growing atheism really did was give her a means to try to justify her adultery. If atheism is truly driving a wedge into your marriage, then you should at least consider the possibility that it is a convenient excuse that is obscuring more important issues...

Second, is it more important to you that your family view you as righteous, or that you actually live the way you feel is right? I might have been able to save my marriage by simply lying and going back to church. For a couple months after my wife left, I wished I had lied, but now I am SOOOOOO glad I didn't. The simple fact is that I absolutely hate hypocrisy. I am happier isolated and true to myself than I ever could have been by patronizing the people around me. Some people may have a problem with the new you, but you have to realize that it is their problem, not yours...

Lastly, are you sure the people in your church would TRULY take you back? Once my marriage was dead, I tried church a few more times. My faith was nearly gone, but I wouldn't permit myself to give up. What I discovered was that my impending divorce, combined with all the gossip that had come with it, had effectively made me an outcast. I was tainted. Church people want everybody to recognize them as being righteous, but very often they are really much more self-righteous. I was no longer good enough to be around them. This wasn't to say that they didn't talk to me. It's just that any warmth I might have once felt was gone. I discovered that these people were great friends as long as my life was perfect and the sun was shining. I have no desire to be around people like that. I doubt seriously that being shunned by your former friends would help your situation, so you need to consider this carefully...

Sorry this is so long. I hope it helps...

[beth]

Thanks for the advice. I am still not sure as to what to do yet. I just see my children and family as more important than myself and I don't want to be the cause of any more upset. I feel as if I have lost my way over the past couple of months and I am trying to cement myself onto something solid.

Postcard: thank you for sharing.

[AJ the greek]

They are from the Bay area, specifically the leader is from Eastern Hillsborough county, possibly in Brandon or Valrico, I don't remember. I think she was formerly a Baptist-type at the Bell Shoals Mega-complex. She(Andrea Steele) is quite open and supportive and is writing a book on walking away from religion.

They do tons of family events, about once a month, such as family picnics at the Museum of Science and Industry over by USF.

But then again, this type of activity may be a type of separation from your husband. I would love to be able to do things like that too, but I am in a mixed marriage as well, and my child is way too young.

They have an Email list-serv on Yahoo-groups that announces the upcoming schedule. I am not going to be a total advertisement here, so if your interested, check them out on a google-search.

Good luck and don't forget who your real friends actually are, the ones who actually support you for who you are. Maybe they only exist online, maybe not. Other types are not really friends.

edit: Looked up the name of the nice lady that runs F_I_R, she posts here on II too, don't know her II name, though

[beth]

Thanks! I used to go to Bell Shoals when I was a kid. My cousin and her family all go there. I will look up FIR, thanks.

[AJ the greek]

Cool, I was hoping you wouldn't think I was a crazed stalker that knew where you lived....I don't know by the way, just the general area. I lived there for a little while and it caught my attention when you mentioned it one other time.

[beth]

Originally posted by AJ the greek
Cool, I was hoping you wouldn't think I was a crazed stalker that knew where you lived....I don't know by the way, just the general area. I lived there for a little while and it caught my attention when you mentioned it one other time. No, I know I've mentioned my area before. Thanks for the advice, I especially like the idea of a group being in the Valrico, Brandon area.

[HelenM]

Originally posted by beth
Thanks for the advice. I am still not sure as to what to do yet. I just see my children and family as more important than myself and I don't want to be the cause of any more upset. I feel as if I have lost my way over the past couple of months and I am trying to cement myself onto something solid.

Hi Beth,

I just wanted to say - remember the power of choice is yours. If you decide "I will do this because it will make my relationships go more smoothly", then that is something you chose to do, based on your priorities. I understand that sometimes it seems there is no perfect solution. (Maybe there never is a perfect solution, actually) All we can do is look at the choices we have, consider what matters most to us, and make the choice which brings us closer to it. And, remember that's a daily choice, because relationships are not static things. They change. The things you feel you can't say today, you might be able to say next week or next year. Who knows.

It seems to me that you've learned a lot lately. Even if you decide to do some things that outwardly seem like backwards progress, bear in mind that you don't have to give up one thing you've learned.

I'm saying this because I struggle at times against despair and feeling powerless. I get to feeling I'm backed into a corner when I'm not. I forget how many choices I have. And I forget that if I do something because of a relationship, I chose to, which is actually a sign of strength rather than weakness.

Anyway, I hope things work out for you.

Helen

[brighid]

beth,

I am so sorry to hear about your struggles. What you are enduring, is IMO, unconscionable and it isn't your fault. It is terribly disturbing that all these people who know and love you shun you now because you don't believe in their God. These actions say nothing about your own character, but much about the character of those who no longer respect you because ONE belief has changed. I know this doesn't make your ordeal easier.

If there is this God in Heaven judging people I can't imagine that He/She/It/They values dishonesty, especially dishonesty of belief. How could a benevolent being value such a thing? Honesty is a tough road, but self respect should know no bounds.

You could set a very positive example by forging your own way of righteousness in this community to demonstrate that lack of belief in their God does not make you immoral, disrespectful or unworthy of friendship, kindness and love. People worthy of your respect, love and trust will show themselves and those unworthy of those things will as well.

Trials such as this teach us painful, but very helpful lessons. They challenge the depths of our character and the strength of our resolve. They also reveal our weaknesses so we can have an opportunity to strengthen and better ourselves.

I know it is hard (because I have had to do it) but you can combat their ignorance and maltreatment with the concept of killing them with kindness. You haven't changed. It is their perception of you that has and this is their problem.

I cannot say that you will ever again have the extensive social circle you once had, but few things are impossible. I have certainly lost friends with the revelation of my lack of belief and as painful as that is I look to it as a positive thing. If I am not loved for who I actually am then I am being loved under false pretenses. I am who I am. I make no apologies about it and you can either love me or leave me. I know that isn't so easy when it comes to your family, but when it comes down to it I doubt your children love you any less.

You have to do what is right for you and no one hear can tell what that is. We don't have to walk in your shoes or deal with your pain. All we can do is give our perspective and hope that something in it will help you make an informed decision.

As Helen said you always have choices and no one can take that from you. Be strong, talk her all you need and do your best to make rational, informed decisions.

Hugs,
Brighid

[scumble]

beth, I hope you have the strength to find your own way through this.
As others have said, you need real friends, people who love you and not what you supposedly "represent" to them. It almost seems that real people mean nothing to the more extreme christians.
I've not experienced anything like it myself, but my heart goes out to you. I don't think you deserve to be shunned, or discarded.

[Godless Dave]

Beth, my first reaction is to say "Don't do it!" But that's easy for me to say; I come from a family that doesn't go to church, few of my friends are Christian, and I live in a big city. You have the misfortune of being one of the few non-Christians in your community and the only one in your family. Plus the Christianity they espouse is one of the simplistic, exclusivist versions. I really don't know what the answer is for you. But I hope you can find a way to be at peace and still be honest with yourself. It sounds like a nightmare.

Dave

[beth]

Thank you. I appreciate the advice. I still am trying to weigh my options. I do not agree with a lot of teaching in Christianity, the bigotry against homosexuals being the biggest thing, but I was like that years ago and had gay friends growing up and I was friends with a lesbian couple who lived near me. Somehow I was able to combine the two.

I emailed the head of Families In Reason and registered in the forum there. Perhaps I can go to a couple of outings. Maybe if I can get my children around secularists, it will do them a little good. They are quite miffed that mommy is an atheist right now.

I've got some time, so I don't want to jump headlong into anything else right now.

[HelenM]

Originally posted by beth
Maybe if I can get my children around secularists, it will do them a little good. They are quite miffed that mommy is an atheist right now.

Beth, can you say any more about that? Are they mad at you? How did they find out you're an atheist (if you don't mind me asking)?

Helen

[Viti]

This may be a good time to start teaching your children about tolerance for those that are different or have different beliefs.

[beth]

Originally posted by HelenM
Beth, can you say any more about that? Are they mad at you? How did they find out you're an atheist (if you don't mind me asking)?

Helen Helen, I'll email you about it tomorrow. I have to go off. Love ya... :)

[beth]

Originally posted by LadyShea
This may be a good time to start teaching your children about tolerance for those that are different or have different beliefs. It's not the intolerance for other beliefs that's got them, it's the idea of mommy going to hell. They are hurt and scared for me.

[Godless Dave]

Originally posted by beth
It's not the intolerance for other beliefs that's got them, it's the idea of mommy going to hell. They are hurt and scared for me.

Beth, if I can offer a suggestion, maybe you could tell them that God doesn't punish good people, just like Mommy and Daddy don't punish kids for being good.

[beth]

Originally posted by Godless Dave
Beth, if I can offer a suggestion, maybe you could tell them that God doesn't punish good people, just like Mommy and Daddy don't punish kids for being good. This is a good idea. I told them similar. It seemed to help some. They were almost back to normal yesterday. :)

[The Other Michael]

The problem I see with that is now they can presume that everyone who is being "punished" in some way must be a bad person.

People in car wrecks, the homeless, the disabled etc are all obviously bad people, since God wouldn't be "punishing" them if they were good.

Beth, "friends are the family you get to chose yourself". You should be able to find friends in places other than church (or even at more friendly churches than the one you've been a part of), and letting someone abuse you because of an accident of birth (and what about the in-laws that get to abuse you through the accident of marriage?) seems a pretty silly thing for an adult to let happen.

I'd guess that even if you do go back into the closet, you are likely to be viewed with some suspicion from here on out, and will have your "transgressions" thrown in your face any time one of your "friends" or "loving relatives" decides they need to put you down.

I hope you can find something that works for you without doing too much damage to your psyche and self-esteem.

good luck,
Michael

[beth]

I understand. I was just a very family orientated person. Even though I saw faults with them, they were my blood and I loved them. I think it just hurt very bad that even my own mother ignored me on principal. But I'm beginning to understand that others have experienced similar things. I guess that I shouldn't expect a miracle with her, anyway; she has hurt me very deeply in the past before. But this time it is because of religion.

My friends were people whom I've known for ten to thirteen years. I have some aquaintances, but none that I am close enough with to actually consider them to be a friend. I have online friends, of course, but it isn't the same. I like to talk and laugh and giggle with someone and actually have one on one contact. It's only been a short period of time since I deconverted. Perhaps I can adjust to it.

[ex-preacher]

From my experience, things will definitely improve over time. It just takes people a while to get used to the "new you." It probably took you a long time of thinking to deconvert, so it doesn't seem all that radical to you (or maybe it does). They are probably still in shock. In time they will see that you haven't sprouted horns and a tail and might even share a giggle with you. Be patient is my best advice. I know, easy for me to say.

[vern]

Hi Beth,
I think I understand some of what you're feeling. I was Mormon for eleven years, did the missionary thing and all. It's a close community, and my wife and her family can trace their mormon 'heritage' back several generations. When I became outspoken about my atheism (just a couple of months ago), the first thing my mother-in-law did was ask my wife if she was sure she wanted to remain in "that kind of situation". Friends and family have all been shocked, then hurt, then angry. My wife has since left the church also, but still believes in a God. The sudden lack of social activity and the lack of communication with family is stressful.
Enough of the life history though. My point in responding was simply to say that I understand how the sudden loss of social interaction feels. I don't even know yet how I'm going to replace the void that it's created. I do know one thing though, God isn't going to do it for me.
Going back would not be an option for me. The fact is, once you've opened your eyes I don't think you can ever really close them again for the sake of making someone else more comfortable.
Good luck to you, whatever you decide.

[ex-preacher]

Welcome Vern! Great first message. I was a Church of Christ minister for 12 years and did some mission work in Brazil. I was teaching Bible in a Christian university when I de-converted about 3 years ago. Talk about uncomfortable.

Everyone else in my family, including my wife and kids are still very strong C of C. It's been tough, but things have gradually improved. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I have been able to re-build a lot my social connections by getting plugged in to Unitarian Universalism (www.uua.org). Strangely enough, my family even encourages that. They prefer to see me in any church on Sunday than relaxing at home reading the paper. Odd.

[The Other Michael]

Originally posted by ex-preacher
They prefer to see me in any church on Sunday than relaxing at home reading the paper. Odd.

Misery loves company. :)

They are jealous of you being a person of leisure while they've got to get up, get dressed and "enjoy" going to church.

cheers,
Michael

[beth]

Originally posted by The Other Michael
Misery loves company. :)

They are jealous of you being a person of leisure while they've got to get up, get dressed and "enjoy" going to church.

cheers,
Michael I can say that I did hate going to church in the morning. I would usually stay up late the night before to watch SNL and it was a bear to get up and fix breakfast, dress the kids, and shower and dress myself. Then try to get there on time. I do not miss this aspect of Christianity.

[brighid]

Beth,

Maybe you can start doing something different on Sunday mornings when everyone else is going to Church. What sort of causes do you have a passion for? Really, check out the volunteer organizations in your area. This will allow you an opportunity to meet with like-minded people and through your work you will certainly gain respect. If nothing else will give you a sense of accomplishment that you have helped others who aren't likely to care if you are a Christian, Atheist, Alien from outer-space, etc.

Some suggestions to consider would be your local animal rescue, adoption organization or humane society. They are always looking for volunteers. Check our a children's hospital to see if you could be a book reader. There are so many opportunties out there. Don't let this obstacle get you down. Create an opportunity for self-improvement and reach out beyond the confines of your normal, comfortable social circles.

Allow your actions to speak for your morality and self-respect. People WILL come around. Even my mother, the flaming, conservative Catholic quasi-Messianic Jew/Protestant hybrid of something or the other has come around ... even if she still prays that I come back to the Church and would have the Pope perform an intervention if she could.

I don't tell too many people I am an atheist. I find it a non-issue. If it comes up I will be honest, but it doesn't come up too often. Try not to put any more importance on your non-belief then necessary. Make no apologies. Do not act ashamed and do not succumb to any peer pressure (here or otherwise.) You have nothing to be ashamed of.

To thine own self be true!

Brighid

[beth]

Hi Brighid,
I just wanted to thank you for your suggestions.

I know that I need to make my decisions, but I always like to weigh the advice of others before I make my call. Perhaps there are other options for me. I guess though, that when one is used to the same support or social structure for thirteen years, it's hard to break free. I have decided (for the time being) to get to know my kids better and to help them heal from all the trauma we've endured for the past year(lotsa bad stuff has happened). I think they are the most important investment of my time.

I think I will attend church when they have special programs because I don't want to miss what is important to my kids. Football season has started and my son is off the waiting list, so he'll be playing. I'll be busy five days a week with that on top of brownies. The brownie mom's aren't too religious from what I've seen.

My non-belief isn't much of an issue at home untill my husband reads IIDB and gets upset. I think he's quit, though, because he saw it was adding to problems.

I used to be very close to my mom. She was my world, then things changed. We were just starting to rebuild some sort of bond when she read my email and found out I was no longer a Christian. I guess the little girl in me want acceptance from her finally. It is really amazing how much power parents can hold over you even in adult life.

Anyway, I will look into volunteering at the children's ward. I was a book reader to the kids at school and kids seem to like me, perhaps it will be rewarding to help kids who are ill.

My main worry (beside my children), still, is my inlaws. My MIL is like a mother to me, I really don't think I can handle her rejection or tears because of my disbelief.

[brighid]

I used to be very close to my mom. She was my world, then things changed. We were just starting to rebuild some sort of bond when she read my email and found out I was no longer a Christian. I guess the little girl in me want acceptance from her finally. It is really amazing how much power parents can hold over you even in adult life.

Me too! I totally understand, but if it helps any you can learn to overcome that need for her acceptance. It takes time and the road will definately be filled with some heartache, but in the end you may come to realize that you need self-acceptance more then you need outside acceptance.

You should have seen the disappointment in my mother's eyes when I brought a black man home! :D I think she had a near death experience!

It will take time for them to unlearn the prejudice they have been taught. They may come to learn that they cannot accept a God who damn their beloved child to Hell for nothing other then a lack of belief... or they may not.

They may never unlearn those prejudices, but they can learn to co-exist. I know my mother is shocked that as an atheist I find volunteer work rewarding. I am just beginning a program where I will help single mothers, fathers and young families learn to cope with their new responsibilities.

If they have even a shred of integrity time will teach them that their ideas are wrong and they will have to soften. Give them time to adjust to this shock. It must be very hard for them to see you, a highly respected, loving member of their family and community give up belief in their God (and digest all the ramifications that go with it.) Be patient and the best way to overcome this heart ache is simply live life the best you can, and live it with respect, honesty and integrity. No matter what they may say they can never take those things from you.

Hang in there. You will be alright. You are a strong woman, you love your family and I think things can work themselves out.

Brighid

[ex-preacher]

Originally posted by beth

I used to be very close to my mom. She was my world, then things changed. We were just starting to rebuild some sort of bond when she read my email and found out I was no longer a Christian. I guess the little girl in me want acceptance from her finally. It is really amazing how much power parents can hold over you even in adult life.


Same for me. The most difficult aspect of my deconversion has been my relationship with my parents. At first, I tried to hide my new views from them. That didn't work. Next I harbored the illusion that I would help them deconvert - Ha! My mom and I eventually had to come to a truce where we do not talk about religion. Things have gradually improved.

My Dad, who is a preacher for a big church, has not been nearly as difficult to deal with. He has an advanced theological education and I think has struggled with many of the same issues I have so he sympathizes with me. I secretly think he might have deconverted except for his own fears of alienating his mother (she's still alive and holds a domineering sway over him, even though he's in his late 60's).

My Dad has told me that he still wonders if his dad would approve of his decisions. I guess you never get away from your parents, even when they're gone.

[HelenM]

Originally posted by brighid
in the end you may come to realize that you need self-acceptance more then you need outside acceptance.

I'm glad you wrote this, brighid. In my opinion, this is so important. It never works when we seek acceptance from others to make up for the despair that comes from an inability to accept ourselves. Acceptance needs to start with self-acceptance. Until we do that we'll be on an endless desperate search to find someone who will accept us...

Helen

[brighid]

I'm glad you wrote this, brighid. In my opinion, this is so important. It never works when we seek acceptance from others to make up for the despair that comes from an inability to accept ourselves. Acceptance needs to start with self-acceptance. Until we do that we'll be on an endless desperate search to find someone who will accept us...

Thank you. It is something I feel strongly about. I have seen too many beloved friends and family members fall prey to the endless rollercoaster cycle of ups and downs that comes with seeking acceptance outside of ones self.

Acceptance from others is a nice thing, don't get me wrong but it is not a necessity if you know and accept who you are, flaws and all. If a person simply does his/her best to lead a life of integrity the mistakes and tribulations seem to be much easier to traverse.

What cannot be found within cannot be found without ...

Brighid

[Primordial Groove]

Wow. It is always disheartening to see religion split a family. Religion > love? I don't think I could handle that.
I am the only atheist in my family (other than the step-unit). Both brothers are christian leaning (one to the nth degree), same with mom and sister. The great thing about it is that it is a non issue. I think this thread made me realize that. We are who we are and we believe what we want but that doesnt change our relationship with each other. I can't imagine alienating one of them due to their religion and I cant see them alienating me due to my lack of.

With that said, if I was singled out due to my non-belief, I would not succumb to their wishes. I could not live my life according to their plan.

I feel sympathy for you Beth. No one should have to go through alienation from their family just because of their belief system. And no one should live according to someone elses plan. It's your only life Beth. If you cant live it on your terms, then it isn't really yours.
I hope you can mend the bridges with your children. I also hope religion becomes the non-issue it should be in a family. Show them love and they will show it in turn. No strings attached. :)

I wish you the best Beth. Just remember, this life is yours.

[Proxima Centauri]

Originally posted by beth
I understand. I was just a very family orientated person. Even though I saw faults with them, they were my blood and I loved them. I think it just hurt very bad that even my own mother ignored me on principal. But I'm beginning to understand that others have experienced similar things. I guess that I shouldn't expect a miracle with her, anyway; she has hurt me very deeply in the past before. But this time it is because of religion.

My friends were people whom I've known for ten to thirteen years. I have some aquaintances, but none that I am close enough with to actually consider them to be a friend. I have online friends, of course, but it isn't the same. I like to talk and laugh and giggle with someone and actually have one on one contact. It's only been a short period of time since I deconverted. Perhaps I can adjust to it.
I'm sorry for you, Beth. It looks like your family and this church think chastisement of the unrighteous and the unbeliever is more important than love and kindness. :eek: I'm also sorry for your kids growing up and learning this bad way to treat family and friends.
Someone suggested the Unitarian Universalist Association. (http://www.uua.org) Freethinkers who understand the United States think it’s a good place where people who don't believe in God can get acceptance. I suggest you go there regularly with the kids. The kids will learn tolerance. You will have a chance to make new friends among more tolerant people. You family will be reassured that you're not totally opposed to all forms of Christianity.

[Speedy-Lube]

FOUR WORDS

Y
M
C
A

[Malagasy Rain]

Originally posted by Speedy-Lube
FOUR WORDS

Y
M
C
A What good would that do? Doesn't that mean "Young Men's Christian Association"?

[DrummerWench]

ex-preacher said

I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I have been able to re-build a lot my social connections by getting plugged in to Unitarian Universalism (www.uua.org). Strangely enough, my family even encourages that. They prefer to see me in any church on Sunday than relaxing at home reading the paper. Odd.

B.Shack said

Someone suggested the Unitarian Universalist Association. Freethinkers who understand the United States think it’s a good place where people who don't believe in God can get acceptance. I suggest you go there regularly with the kids. The kids will learn tolerance. You will have a chance to make new friends among more tolerant people. You family will be reassured that you're not totally opposed to all forms of Christianity.

This sounds to me like a possible middle ground, especially if you find the right UU church. So many Christians have no clue about different denominations (let alone other religions), if you start going to a "church", that could be enough of a buzz word to smooth things over.

I don't know a lot about UU, except that they accommodate atheists, agnotics & theists to some degree or other, depending on the church / minister.

For the choir singing, maybe you could check out local / college choruses. They often do both religious & secular works.

I hope things work out for you.

DG

[Queen of Swords]

Originally posted by beth
I just see my children and family as more important than myself

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man." - - - Shakespeare.

Edited to add : Aw heck, brighid beat me to it. :o

[Anti-Creedance Front]

Unitarian Universalist sounds good, and YMCA is actually a very secular organization. I went to day camp there as a kid and we were not preached to at all, it was more like an indoor/outdoor summer camp. Of course there's a lot of things for mature adults to do there too. And I'm sure they have some sort of yoga type exercise classes.

It's the crux of being irreligious, you lose the community, and sometimes you lose the spirituality if you don't know how to be "secularly spiritual". I really never was in the church community, and I'm very much involved in college, so I have a social life, but I probably would attend "secular services", were they available. As long as we didn't spend the whole time mocking Jesus. That would eh... kinda look bad for us and put a negative tone on it. Anyway, I wrote an essay on being spiritual in general that won third prize in the Humanist contest, so whenever that's published, I'll send a copy to you, otherwise I'll try to dig the files out of MS Works. I do wish you much luck though, and once you go unreligious, you tend not to go back.

[brighid]

Beth,

I like the recommendation of checking out your local YMCA. My family and I spend a lot of time there, and although there are the occassional signs up that say "God Bless" and stuff like that our YMCA is pretty darn neutral.

My son plays lots of basketball there and enjoys swimming with his friends at the pool. The fitness programs are usually pretty good and most have yoga classes (which can be a great stress reliever). I would recommend taking Cardio Kickboxing for your frustations but that is just my bias showing :D

I have found it a great place to meet people in my community, and at least at our Y there is so much diversity that religion is NOT an issue. I find the people to be generally, very friendly and the YMCA does a lot of good things through helping underprivileged children, and things like that.

Brighid

[Purple Smartie]

Absolutely, the YMCA is a great place to meet people, and a great place to volunteer as well. I don't recall ever hearing any "God" stuff at my particular Y, and it's definitely not just for men.

The local Y has employment programs where volunteers help underemployed / low-income people create resumes and learn basic computer and communication skills so they can be more prepared for job interviews. If your YMCA doesn't have such a program you could start one.

I don't know how diverse the population is where you live, but there are many immigrant families here because of the large engineering university. Many of their kids participate in sports and dance classes at the YMCA and the waiting rooms seem to be very social places as well ;) You can bet they're of many different religious backgrounds.

Check it out, what have you got to lose?

[Secular Elation]

Beth,

I'm posting late in this thread, but I wish to add my condolences to the difficulty of your situation. You are the sole nonbeliever in your family and social community, and that has resulted in many pains with loss of social bonds, activities at church, et cetera. It is a position that is never easy to deal with.

We are different people--you are a mom and I am a son--but I can relate a great deal to your dilemma. I am the only atheist in my family. My parents believe in god, but they don't attend church and are not particularly religious. However, my two sisters and their families (they are both married) are very religious. I never really was a strong believer, I'd say I was ambiguous with religious beliefs all my life, until my early teenage years when I finally developed full-blown atheism. This is a characteristic that is so isolating, isn't it?

However, you have exemplified your strength by being honest and revealing your disbelief to your family and enduring their responses, and the additional consequences with other friends. I am ashamed to say that I have yet to come out of the closet and reveal to my family that I am a nonbeliever. I am so afraid of how they will respond, and from what you have described of your situation, it will not be pretty. Certainly, not every family is the same, but I have commonly seen such distasteful reactions in families where a member reveals religious differences. I know that, eventually, I will need to reveal my disbelief to my family, but it is requiring tremendous will power that I can't acheive thus far.

Funny I should say that I have not revealed my personal truth to my family, for I have in fact revealed it to most of my friends. In my junior year of high school, the school newspaper published an article I submitted, in which I discussed being a nonbeliever in modern society. The social cosequences of that action were numerous. Although I didn't really lose any of the friends I had already known before that publication, there were other opportunities to make friends that I know were lost. Worst of all, there was a girl I had a crush on and we almost got close, but when differences in belief became an issue, she distanced herself. To this day, I haven't fully gotten over it.

But I am glad you are past that point and are on your way to healing from the social damages inflicted from your brave revelation of your personal (dis)beliefs. You are commendable for standing up for what YOU believe in, for preserving your own integrity. Hang in there, for things will get better, I am sure.

Best wishes.

[beth]

Secular Elation,
I am very sorry to hear about your situation. It is hard being different. I'm not even sure that I was wise to declare to my family and those around me about my disbelief but what is done is done. I felt I needed to, though because I was still veiwed as a strong Christian even when I lacked belief. So I tried being honest and suffered the consequences. But I knew it would happen from the beginning, anyway.

I'm not really sure that you must tell your family what you belief or don't believe in, especially right now. You need to search yourself and decide if it is really all that important. However, you should not feel shame in not revealing anything to them. I looked at your profile and it seems that you are still young. Take your time and don't rush into anything. Enjoy college.

[Darwin26]

...seems odd...that FREEDOM, unconditional personal FREEDOM would be put upon and stressed just to advance unbridled, conventional controls...but then, that is the nature of the Beast... the beast who knows no boundaries.
...they know not where they end or Beth begins ...they only know Barriers... you have disrupted their conventional taboos...
YOU, have shown strength and courage beyond the trivial myths...YOU have eclipsed, the radical demons thriving on conditions...who must comply.
Not long ago Beth, you might have been arrested for such errant behavior... Today, know that many many here share your pain...through the doorways of compassion in our boundaries.
Interesting how the boundary bashers will try to beat you up exiting and beat you up entering. ...just ask Jackie Robinson.
i suspect the Courage and Self Respect you have revealed so far will NOT vanish, but grow solid, a connection to, a stepping stone for unknown others who seek escape through your FREEDOM ... Be Still and the richness of a FREE deep breath will leave you to walk on ...
your kids will see, a brave mother, banging and clawing her way out of prison ...it's difficult on the outside. We have to find new ways of dealing and socializing ... Thank cod for the internet.

[Trecker]

Dear Beth,
This is a most painful thread. If it would actually cure the problem that gives you so much pain I would say to you to go back.

I personally see the problem much more in terms of free thought verses pre-programmed, imposed, loop thinking. Thinking about this problem in terms of the murky, undefinable "gift of faith" condemns one's thoughts to the party line. This is not an issue of the "sin of pride" which we atheists are committing. We are just acknowledging the data which we see vs the data we do not see. If there were only data supporting theism 20% of the time, I would personally be very inclined to consider it. Wishing it to be so does not make it so, and more likely that wish is an indication that it is not so! If reliable data did support the theistic thinking, most if not all of us here would be theists. It not only does not but screams that there is no god!

While other posters here have given you good suggestions to help you to cope with this problem, I believe Darwin 26 tells the most important part. It really is about your family. It really is about how we teach our children to think, and think bravely. This life is much too short, and we must teach that to our kids, to not waste the good we can do and the pleasure we can feel in sanctimonious ceremonies, venerating and sacrificing to a deity that does not exist.

If you decide to try to go back, it is ok. At least you have exposed your children to honest searching. They will always search much more than they would have had they not had your example. There is additional goodness you can teach your children and others about life if you decide to persevere. I just hope that it does not continue to be so painful for you

Best of luck to you Beth in whatever you choose!

[beth]

Thank you, but I really and truly am not brave and I certainly don't deserve the kind words that were posted. But I have realized that I could care less about what my extended family/relatives think of me. I just now remembered how horrible they truly are. I think I delude myself often to forget the nature of people. I paint some pink, fluffy, fairy tale image of people in my mind and think of that image when I think of the person. Or maybe I just love people and try to only see the good in them. But I will not stress over their disapproval of me.

Now I do care what my husband, children, and mother and sister in laws think of me. I don't want to stress them and my son keeps asking me if I'm going to hell. I try to comfort him without contradicting his faith. I'll figure this out, but I don't think I will be all that verbal on my controversial thoughts.

[The Other Michael]

Hi Beth,

Let me recommend that you (and everyone else) read Hobbs' article Why I am not a Christian (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kendall_hobbs/no_longer.shtml) in the SecWeb library.

It is pretty long, but it seems to me that there is a huge amount of information there about his deconversion that would be of benefit to you in your current situation.

cheers,
Michael

[ex-preacher]

Originally posted by beth
I don't want to stress them and my son keeps asking me if I'm going to hell. I try to comfort him without contradicting his faith. I'll figure this out, but I don't think I will be all that verbal on my controversial thoughts.

My wife and I agreed that she would continue to raise our kids according to her faith, but I made clear that I would not ever lie to them about what I believed. I try to avoid blunt statements, but if my kids ask a direct question, I try to give direct answers. Your son is probably stressed thinking mommy is going to burn in hell. Under those circumstances I think I would tell my child that hell doesn't really exist. My 2 cents.

[Trecker]

Beth,
Instead of out right contradicting the belief structure, one might try to direct a self-contradicting aspect of it to rationalize your point of view. In this case I would point out that you are a very good person that does mostly good things in your lifetime and are honestly looking for truth and are honestly saying what you see. If that god existed in which your husband and children believe, he is presumably a good god that is loving, merciful & kind to people, and not driven by a simple human ego and would be much more respectful of someone who actually looked hard to find him than believe because they are told they must believe. No good god will send you to hell! And if god were to be bad, he cannot really be bad enough. For if he be "the creator" this world is far too wonderful and beautiful in itself to be created by some being intending evil. (This argument works better if your family belongs to a sect that worships a more benign form of god rather than a juvenile/vengeful type.)

As for you saying that you are "not brave," everything I have seen you do here has been honest and brave! You deserve more than any kind words that have been written to you in this thread!:)

[Darwin26]

Your sharing, the calling out from the ruble of the ruins, granted we didn't need to get those expensive sniffer dogs, brings us in contact with each other... What is courageous?

What now the immediacy? Those nearest you, how shall you assuage their, their, their confusion ... but the one closest is inside ... what will you tell that little one inside, what advice would your give yourself? Ahhhh the leap to save them from Hell ... Do not save them . Scared and confused they'll understand... adults are all to often putting on a facade, a faux finish as it were... Oh kids see right through it ...and you'd be surprised how resiliant those little urchins can be ...
...get them a puppy ...get yourself some air...
Seek the ones who feel for your happiness not the ones you need to make happy...they never will be.


..."deserve" is often a term used by the supplicant bidder...
at one of gawds sporting events.

[beth]

Well, I've begun to talk to my baby sister more. We live in different counties and the high expense of toll charges have kept communication down(in state long distance is much higher than state to state tolls), but I switched to a plan the offers unlimited long distance and we've begun to talk more. She is more of an allay. She is actually proud of me but I don't understand why. I was always the brunt of her jokes before when I was a Christian. I cannot actually discuss problems because she's seventeen and she has a baby and I don't want to add any undue stress onto her, but she knows some of the situation.

So, I have her and my oldest younger brother, at least(although my brother is convinced I'm condemning myself). And we are all bonded by the same disgust for our mother.

I haven't worked out the anxiety with the kids yet, but they've been sick and distracted and have noticed that I did say a little prayer for them when they asked me too and they thank me for it.

[Shake]

Originally posted by beth
Thanks for the advice. I am still not sure as to what to do yet. I just see my children and family as more important than myself and I don't want to be the cause of any more upset. I feel as if I have lost my way over the past couple of months and I am trying to cement myself onto something solid.

Postcard: thank you for sharing. Let me first state that I hit reply almost immediately after reading this, so I have only just skimmed over what some others have said after this.

Your children and family are important - let me stress that first - but you need to take care of #1 (yourself) first! It may be hard, but you can't let others dictate who you are.

You might want to consider an open letter to those that you truly care about (but who are avoiding you now) telling them that you are who you are and you can't be forced into changing. Let them know that you don't fault them for their beliefs or how they choose to live their lives. Submit to them that you are not asking them to follow your lead or even like where you are at in your life, but that it is your life! Say that all you are asking for is a little respect. You are still basically the same person you were before. You haven't become some maniacal sex-crazed, drug-crazy killer or anything; still beth! The support of family should be able to rise above even religious beliefs. Say that if it's not a topic that they feel can be openly discussed, then it won't be discussed. Remind them that your love for them has not changed. Ask if at worst, it would be possible to merely maintain a civil relationship, since you do still care (and hope that you are cared about, too).

IMHO, giving in will only cause bigger problems that may not either manifest themselves immediately, and could in the long run do even more damage to all involved (emotionally, mentally, and perhaps even physically), especially you. I also feel that being true to yourself and your children earn you more respect and allow you to be there more for them.

I hope I'm not rehashing too much. Hmmm... I see others have said some good things, too.

[Malcolm]

Hi Beth, I'm coming in here pretty late in the day too, but it is a topic I feel strongly about as well. I do think that it was extremely brave of you to open this thread in an atheist forum. And my faith in the human race has again been encouraged by the quality of replies which you have received.

Deconversion is a massive event in anyone's life, especially when they have been as closely connected to the Church as I seem to remember that you have been (as I was). The day of the dawning of the truth, when I was able to say out loud "I no longer believe in God" was a profound step for me. I was immediately elated, as though I had discovered some hidden treasure, and the initial period following my deconversion was a time of excitement - finding that I could finally be honest with myself, see people for who they really are, and start building my life based on dignity and honesty rather than continually trying to live up to an external false ideal.

But fairly soon afterwards I too began to miss the company of the believers, and paticularly the support network which I had developed over many years. I was very fortunate in that few people really took issue with me, and most remained my friends. But none-the-less I was clearly no longer an insider. For quite a long period I went through a process which I can only describe as grieving, though most of my immediate family did not condemn me. I had strong desires to return as well. As recently as last week I sat in front of the TV crying during a hymn singing programme, just being struck again at the profound change that there has been in my life. And yet, I know that I am much happier now than I ever was as a christian, I am more honest with myself, I am a more genuine person, and I am of more benefit to humanity.

One analogy that comes to mind is that of post-natal depression. Once the thrill of the new birth starts to fade, the father has gone back to work, and the mother is left on her own, it is very common for a degree of depression to set in - and in particular for a longing (usually unspoken) for the baby just to disappear, and for life to go back to the stable pre-baby state. And yet the positive benefits that come from seeing a baby grow to adulthood are overwhelming. I think that may be where you are now. I think that it will be impossible for you to truly believe again. Once you have pulled back the curtain and seen the lies on which your previous belief was based, I don't believe it is possible to forget it again.

It is an immensely difficult time, and I sympathise with you in so many ways. But I encourage you to hang in there. Your basic integrity and decency will come out in the end, and you will be respected by friends and family for the stance you have taken. I wish you well.

Malcolm

[Definitely Maybe]

Beth, just wanted to add that I can relate. I'm having a hell of a year twisting my way through how to handle my slowly degrading faith. I have such a huge support network at church and just about every family member is a believer, including my wife. Thankfully, as I've shared my doubts they haven't been condemning. Nobody has. Not one friend or relative. But, I don't think they quite realize how far I've gone. I just keep playing "devil's advocate" so that when that one day comes it won't be such a shock.

The approval of parents is amazing, huh? I'm pushing 40 and this past weekend was kind of dragged to a church I've never been to before. HUGE HUGE church with rock music and younger worshippers. I sat there with my arms crossed, just wanting to get out of there. All day long my mother talked about the great sermon... and she loves to pepper her talk about Christian-this and Christian-that. By dinner time, in a restaurant, I couldn't take it anymore and took on my wife, father and mother. haha Actually, as heated as it got, it was still me playing devil's advocate, but they all sense the devil is me! Anyway, I bite my tongue so much not wanting to disrespect or hurt them. Most of the time there is no point in doing that.

I do not look forward to possible relationship ties being cut soon though. Religion has been a good thing for me most of my life, but even so... truth takes priority.

[Darwin26]

thread here; The testamonials are very moving . I so appreciatet the sharing. It's incredible to watch and sense people as yourselves who were augered into this mass of deception and are now feeling the friction as you unscrew yourself from it.

And perhaps is like getting sober...life isn't going to be all that different but the self induced stupper isn't there, you become self actualizing and reality isn't left to the invisible shields and invisible demons, old man in rocking chair taking names, always being under this shadow of surveilence...by some superpower ...

prayer is like drinking... a mental wish for things to be otherwise... but in fact it's the hijacking of reason and the ability to be self actualizing.

i hope the best for all of you struggling to be FREE

[beth]

Yes, the testimonials are moving and I've received a few very touching PM's. I appreciate it. I guess what I am feeling is a normal part of deconversion. It does help to know that I am not just some pathetic nut job, whining about non-existent things. Sometimes I feel like that. It helps me to know that others have faced similar things, it authenticates what I've been going through and for some reason, helps me deal with it better. So thank you.

[christ-on-a-stick]

Hi beth,

First off I'd like to add my condolences to the others that have been offered here. I know how difficult this situation has been for you and can empathize with certain aspects of your struggles.

That being said, I had a few thoughts on a few of the things you have said and I truly hope that my comments don't come off as harsh, these are just things that I feel very strongly about. Others have already touched on this one but my .02 -
I just see my children and family as more important than myself While I understand this feeling, really think about this statement. How can this be? Your life is all that is truly yours and yours alone; only you can live your life and at its end, only you have to accept how you lived it. You cannot live your life for someone else (well one *can* but I don't believe truly happily). Certainly your husband, and not even your children when they are grown and independent, will live their lives for you; while interconnectedness is vitally important IMO to the human experience and fulfillment, the bottom line (again IMO) is that we have to be true to ourselves first.

Secondly I'd like to say a few words about how I see the nature of "love". (eek, that sounded preacherish! ;) ) Setting aside the parent-child relationship but focusing more on the relationship with your husband and family members, it occurs to me that what is most hurtful to you (and understandably so) is the idea that if you don't believe certain things you will lose their love.

But if someone really loves you for YOU, will that happen? And if it does, what does that say about what "love" means to them?

Again please don't take that in the wrong way. My first marriage ended for many reasons but my loss of faith was a large contributing factor, and near the end I realized that while my husband did love me, in a way he loved *more* the "me that he wanted me to be". Not me for who I really was. And that wasn't enough for me. I am not making any judgement on your personal relationship as I am obviously not qualified to do so, but this is something I think is important to think about. Is it enough for you to receive love that has that sort of condition?

I do wish the best for you in whatever path you take, but please remember that you are a valuable person despite having "lost your religion" and you do yourself the greatest disservice if you allow anyone to make you believe differently.