The Official KORAN and SCIENCE Thread

[River]

God transmitted his Last Revelation to all of humanity via ArchAngel intermediary Gabriel. The Comforter (Prophet Muhammad) became the Seal of All Prophets. The Quran is 1400 years old and contains over 700 scientific verses that have serious implications for the way we view science and religion. I must caution...but the Qur'an is a Book of " Signs" and not a Book of "Science", but it does contain much scientific phenomena that was documented centuries later. The Holy Qur'an is a concise Scripture. It is important to pay attention to what it says as well as what it chooses not to say-----River


ASTRONOMY



Universe at its Infancy

[41:11] Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."



Big Bang and The Origin of Life From Water


Chapter: 21, Verse: 30
Have not "those who disbelieve" known heavens and earth were of one piece,
We parted them and, We made every living thing of water
Will they not then believe?



Expansion of the Universe

Chapter: 51, Verse: 47
The heavens, We have built with power and, We are expanding it.



Big Crunch and Reversal of Time

Chapter: 21, Verse: 104
"The day" when, We shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolls up a written scroll.
As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it.



Chapter: 77, Verse: 11
And, the messengers are brought into their time appointed
(The prophets will be returned into their time as time runs backwards)


Dimensional Travel

Chapter: 25, Verse: 25
A day when the heavens and the clouds will be rent
Asunder and the angels will be sent down "A grand descent

Chapter: 18, Verse: 47
Think of the day when, We remove the hills,
And you see the earth emerging and We gather them together,
As to leave not one of them behind.

Chapter: 84, Verse: 19
That you shall "ride" on from plane to plane


(P.S I am aware that there are alternative theories in regard to Big Bang, such as the "Plasma theory". However these theories are based on speculation and fragmented and often conflicting pieces of info. The Big Bang is based on empirical evidence as well as mathematical formulas and advanced computer modeling. Big Crunch logically follows the Big Bang Cycle)


Pre-fixed Measurement of G-d

"We have not created the heavens and the earth ,
And all that lies between them , but with a purpose, According to a pre-fixed measurement........46(3)


Finiteness

" Every order (event) has an appointed time, And ye will come to know" .......6 (67)


Divine Evolution

" Glorify the Name of your Lord, Most high, Who creates and proportions, Who measures then guides"........87(1-3)

"Our Lord is He, Who gave everything its nature, and directs it (through life).......20 (50)


Plurality of the Heavens and Earth

" Allah it is , Who has created, seven heavens, and of the earth-like thereof..the commandment comes down among them gradually, so that ye may know that Allah is able to all things , He surrounds all things in knowledge".....65(12)


(commentary 65(12) reference to plurality of heavens, this revelation clearly speaks about plurality of earth-like heavenly bodies. In the verse 65(12) the statement " Commandment comes down among them gradually" is also of great significance, this means that evolution of each one of these earth/earth-like systems is a gradual evolutionary process.)

" All praise be to Allah, Sustainer and Nourisher of the heavens,Sustainer and Nourisher of the earth, and Sustainer and Nourisher of the Worlds"....45(37)

[pariah]

Big Bang and The Origin of Life From Water


Chapter: 21, Verse: 30
Have not "those who disbelieve" known heavens and earth were of one piece,
We parted them and, We made every living thing of water
Will they not then believe?


How does this have anything to do with an infinitley small and dense peice of matter exploding and creating the universe 15 billion years ago?

The rest of the "proofs" are just as vague, and for every instance in the Koran where it links to science, how many other aspects of science does it ignore? And how many are wrong? For example, I see nothing about wave function creating the universe.

Hosted here on secularweb there is an article that deals with it much better than I could. Perhaps you can read it and tell us why you refute it?

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/islam.html

On a side note, I have a question for a muslim. Koran, or Quran? Is Koran just that way for phonetic simplicity from original Quran? Why call it Quran in the first place, I assume when going from arabic to latin you would spell phonetically anyway, simliar from going from crylic to latin. And what is a moslem? Same thing as muslim?

[River]

Destruction of Solar System



"(Watch for the Day), When the Sun is folded up, When the stars fall, loosing their light" [ 81 (1-2) Qur'an]

" When the sky is rent asunder , And it becomes red like a molten bath of copper. Then which of the favours of your Lord, You may deny"....[55 (37-38) Qur'an]



" The sky will look as the Molten copper".....[70 (8) Qur'an]



"When the earth will be changed to other than the Earth, heavens will also be changed, and they will come forth unto Allah, The One, the Almighty......[14(48) Qur'an]


[THE SUN WILL EXTINGUISH AFTER A CERTAIN PERIOD]

"And the Sun Runs its course For a period determined For it;
that is The decree of (Him) The exalted in Might, The All-Knowing."
[Qur'an 36:38]



Reduction/Contraction of Earth


" See they not? How we are Reducing the Earth gradually , from its all sides"......[13 (41) Qur'an]


Spiral Type of Expansion

(Consider the heaven) "Rotation is its inbuilt characteristics" .....[86(11) Qur'an]


Excessive Temperatures of an Aged Earth

" ( Consider the events), When the oceans will Boil over" [81(6) Qur'an]


Possible Meteorite Death

" Watch for the Day, When the heaven will bring forth , a kind of smoke, plainly visible , Enveloping people, This will be painfully grievous" [ 44( 10-11)]

" When earth, is shaken again and again, to her utmost convulsions, and it throws up, Her burden from within"...99(1-2)

"The earth will be ground to atoms, pounded over pounded"....89(21)

"Thou see the mountains, And think them firmly fixed, But they shall pass away, As the clouds pass away"....[27 (88) Qur'an]

"And the mountains, they will become like carded wool" 101 (5)



New Creation

" Are thou not aware of the fact , That God has created the heavens and the earth , In accordance with a Divine Purpose. He can , if He so wills, do away with you , And bring forth an entirely new creation, It is not difficult for God" . ....14 (19-20)

[River]

Originally posted by pariahSS
How does this have anything to do with an infinitley small and dense peice of matter exploding and creating the universe 15 billion years ago?

... rest of the "proofs" are just as vague....



Vague ! what are you mad?....No other Scripture comes even close...


All Big Bang was was "something fused, that parted" in layman terminology......not much different from what scientists say.


The Qur'an is a book of "Signs" replete with scientific phenomena.

[pariah]

sorry buddy, but an infinitely small dense peice of matter exploding and creating the universe is not the same thing as seperating the heavens and the earth. just seperating them implies that they both already existed in their entirety. very, very different from the big bang. especially when you take into consideration wave function...

the rest of the things are just as easily contested.

[SimplyAtheistic]

I agree that those verses are vague and in no way advanced science. Sorry, but the Koran is no more trustworthy than the bible.
JAke

[River]

Animals Composed of Water

-Sura 24, verse 45:

" God created every animal from water"


Ecosystem

-Sura 15, verse 19

" The earth....We caused all kinds of things to grow therein in due balance"


Qualities of Various Foods

-Sura 13, verse 4

" On the earth are adjacent parts; vineyards , sown fields, palm-trees, similar and not similar, watered with the same water. We make some of them more excellent than others to eat and verily in this are signs for wise people".


Sexual Reproduction in Vegetable Kingdom

-Sura 20 , verse 53:

" (God is the One Who) sent water down from the sky and thereby We brought forth pairs of plants eache separate from the other".

commentary: " One of a Pair" is the translation of zauj (plural azwaj) whose original meaning is : ' that wihch, is in the company of another, forms a pair'

-Sura22, verse 5:

" Thou seest the grounds lifeless. When We sent doen water thereon it shakes and grows and puts forth every magnificent pair (of plants)."

-Sura 31 , verse 10

"We caused to grow (on the earth) every noble pair (of plants)".


Reproduction Animal Kingdom

-Sura 53, verse45 verse 46

" (God) fashioned the two of a pair, the male and the female, from a small quality of a liquid when it is poured out".

commentary:

"sperm" is signified as the small quantity of liquid required for reproduction.


Existence of Animal Communities

-Sura 6, verse38

"There is no animal on earth, no bird which flies on wings , that (does not belong to) communities like you. We have not neglected anything in the Book ( of Decrees). Then to your Lord they will be gathered".


Bees

-Sura 16, verse 68 and verse 69

" Thy Lord inspired the bees; Choose your dwelling in the hills, in the trees and in what (man) built. Eat of all fruit and follow the ways of your Lord in humility. From within their bodies comes a liquour of different colours where is a remedy for men."

Spider

-Sura 29 verse 41

" Those who choose masters other than God are like the spider when it takes for itself a dwelling. Verily the flimsiest dwelling is the dwelling of the spider. If they but knew."


Constituents of Animal Milk


Sura 16, Verse 66

"Verily, in cattle there is a lesson for you. We give you to drink of what is inside their bodies, coming from a conjunction between the contents of the intestine and the blood, a milk pure and pleasant to those who drink it".


Fertilization by small Volume

-Sura 75, Verse 37

" Was (man ) not a small quantity of sperm which has been poured out?"

[River]

Originally posted by pariahSS
especially when you take into consideration wave function...




Wave function? Is my Ears deceiving me?

How do you explain Wave mechanics in layman terms 1400 years ago?


What you are proposing is absurd. You want the Qur'an to be equipped with man-made labels in 7th century?

Are you lacking in common sense! I already stated the Qur'an is not a book of Science. It is a Clear Guidance for all those that reflect. However, It contains things that no other Scripture does or things that couldnt have been imagined in 7th century ( i.e plurality of Worlds).

[River]

Originally posted by JakeJohnson
I agree that those verses are vague and in no way advanced science. Sorry, but the Koran is no more trustworthy than the bible.
JAke




It may not suit your vague definition of " advanced science" but many of these ideas and concepts have been verified in the 20th and 21st centuries (not very long ago).


And you say the Koran is no more trustworthy......... Well, the Bible doesnt even come close to describing phenomena at this level.

[pariah]

Half of those don't even have to be prophesized. It's not hard to guess that sperm results in pregancy. How could humans not notice it during intercourse. Its just putting one and two together.

[River]

Originally posted by pariahSS
Half of those don't even have to be prophesized. It's not hard to guess that sperm results in pregancy. How could humans not notice it during intercourse. Its just putting one and two together.


It looks obvious to you after years of scientific learning...but you must not forget people had some very bizarre concepts of fertiliztion as little as 400 or 500 years ago. And Even in the Prophet's time some arabs believed that withdrawing the "organ" during sex would prevent fertilization. But the Qur'an specifies that only a small volume or quantity is necessary for fertilization.

[River]

Keith Moore PhD, FIAC, FRSM is the Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. He is also the author of my first term medical school anatomy/embryology textbook. He wrote an article explaining the accuracy of the Qur'an.


http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm


I also spoke to Dr. Persaud in person ( He and Keith Moore wrote some of the book together). Dr. Persaud explained to me that the Qur'an gave the first detailed/accurate account of Embryology in historical records.

[River]

ARCHAEOLOGY AND QURAN : QURAN SUPPORTS LOCAL FLOOD

QURAN SUPPORTS REGIONAL FLOOD
The True Story of Noah's Ark


The following article is by prominent scientist/surgeon Maurice Bucaille.


The Narration of the Flood Contained in the Qur'an.
The Qur'an gives a general version which is different from that contained in the Bible and does not give rise to any criticisms from a historical point of view.

It does not provide a continuous narration of the Flood. Numerous suras talk of the punishment inflicted upon Noah's people. The most complete account of this is in sura 11, verses 25 to 49. Sura 71, which bears Noah's name, describes above all Noah's preachings, as do verses 105 to 115, sura 26. Before going into the actual course taken by events, we must consider the Flood as described in the Qur' an by relating it to the general context of the punishment God inflicted on communities guilty of gravely infringing His Commandments.

Whereas the Bible describes a universal Flood intended to punish ungodly humanity as a whole, the Qur'an, in contrast, mentions several punishments inflicted on certain specifically defined communities.

This may be seen in verses 35 to 39, sura 25:
"We gave Moses the Scripture and appointed his brother Aaron with him as vizier. We said: Go to the people who have denied Our signs. We destroyed them completely. When the people of Noah denied the Messengers, We drowned them and We made of them a sign for mankind. (We destroyed the tribes) of Âd and Tamud, the companions of Rass and many generations between them. We warned each of them by examples and We annihilated them completely."

Sura 7, verses 59 to 93 contains a reminder of the punishments brought upon Noah's people, the Âd, the Tamud, Lot (Sodom) and Madian respectively.

Thus the Qur'an presents the cataclysm of the Flood as a punishment specifically intended for Noah's people: this is the first basic difference between the two narrations.

The second fundamental difference is that the Qur'an, in contrast to the Bible, does not date the Flood in time and gives no indication as to the duration of the cataclysm itself.

The causes of the flooding are roughly the same in both narrations. The Sacerdotal description in the Bible (Genesis 7, 11) cites two causes which occurred simultaneously. "On that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened." The Qur'an records the following in verses 11 and 12, sura 54:

"We opened the Gates of Heaven with pouring water. And We caused the ground to gush forth springs, so the waters met according to the decree which has been ordained."

The Qur'an is very precise about the contents of the Ark. The order God gave to Noah was faithfully executed and it was to do the following:

--sura 11, verse 40:
"(In the Ark) load a pair of every kind, thy family, save this one against whom the word has already gone forth, and those who believe. But only a few had believed with him."

The person excluded from the family is an outcast son of Noah. We learn (sura 11, verses 45 and 46) how Noah's supplications on this person's behalf to God were unable to make Him alter His decision. Apart from Noah's family (minus the outcast son), the Qur'an refers to the few other passengers on board the Ark who had believed in God.

The Bible does not mention the latter among the occupants of the Ark. In fact, it provides us with three different versions of the Ark's contents:
--according to the Yahvist version, a distinction is made between 'pure' animals and birds, and 'impure' animals (seven [ Surely 'seven' here indicates 'many', as it often does in the Semitic languages of the time.] pairs, i.e. seven males and seven females, of each 'pure' species, was taken into the Ark and only one pair of each 'impure' species).

-according to a modified Yahvist verse (Genesis 7, 8) there was only one pair of each species, whether 'pure' or 'impure'. -according to the Sacerdotal version, there was Noah, his family (with no exceptions) and a pair taken from each species.

The narration in the Qur'an of the flooding itself is contained in sura 11, verses 25 to 49 and in sura 23, verses 23 to 30. The Biblical narrative does not present any important differences.

In the Bible, the place where the Ark comes to rest is in the Ararat Mountains (Genesis 8, 4) and for the Qur'an it is the Judi (sura 11, verse 44.) This mountain is said to be the highest of the Ararat range in Armenia, but nothing proves that the names were not changed by man to tally with the two narratives. This is confirmed by R. Blachère: according to him there is a peak in Arabia named Judi. The agreement of names may well be artificial.

In conclusion, it is possible to state categorically what major differences exist here between the Biblical and Qur'anic narrations. Some of them escape critical examination because objective data are lacking. When, however, it is possible to check the statements in the Scriptures in the light of the established data, the incompatibility between the Biblical narration-i.e. the information given on its place in time and geographical extent-and the discoveries that have contributed to modern knowledge is all too clear. In contrast to this, the narration contained in the Qur'an is free from anything which might give rise to objective criticism. One might ask if it is possible that, between the time of the Biblical narration and the one contained in the Qur'an, man could have acquired knowledge that shed light on this event. The answer is no, because from the time of the Old Testament to the Qur'an, the only document man possessed on this ancient story was the Bible itself. If human factors are unable to account for the changes in the narrations which affected their meaning with regard to modern knowledge, another explanation has to be accepted, i.e. a Revelation which came after the one contained in the Bible.

[pariah]

Originally posted by River
Wave function? Is my Ears deceiving me?

How do you explain Wave mechanics in layman terms 1400 years ago?



The human brain was the same size back then as it is now. Humans had the same ability to learn as we do now. And surely they would listen to the word of God.

[River]

Originally posted by pariahSS
The human brain was the same size back then as it is now. Humans had the same ability to learn as we do now. And surely they would listen to the word of God.


Well, most people are/were skeptical of the word of G-d whether it is clear or not. Its not about human brain size and capability ....it has to do with the collective mentality of the people and the times.

[emotional]

But what about the Flat Earth?

The Flat Earth Qur'an (http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/platyquran.htm) (PDF version (http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/platyquran.pdf))

[River]

Originally posted by emotional
But what about the Flat Earth?



Yes , and what about the flat earth ? Dont you realize the Earth is flat!

[River]

Originally posted by River
Yes , and what about the flat earth ? Dont you realize the Earth is flat!



(sarcasm intended)

[River]

Originally posted by emotional
But what about the Flat Earth?




Ya, like we are really going to believe your BS website with skewed information. You already stated your New Age beliefs and confessed:

Emotional :"In fact, I think I'm the only one on these boards who admits to hating science and choosing faith as opposed to it."


Such, a contradictory person you are, Emotional.

:rolleyes:

[Coragyps]

River, I thought Spam was unclean under Islamic dietary laws. You certainly spreading a great deal of it here. Does that not bother you?

[River]

Originally posted by Coragyps
River, I thought ham was unclean under Islamic dietary laws. You certainly spreading a great deal of it here. Does that not bother you?


Well it is true that ham is considered unclean by Jewish law (leviticus)...but the truth is


Swine is very similar to hu-man meat. After, the primates, pigs are the most similar to humans in terms overall body physiology and biochemistry. For example , in biology labs pigs are the candidate of choice for performing Anatomy analysis. This is because the blood-fat ratio on a pig and human are identical. The lateral number of degrees between the eyes of a pig and the facial symmetry of a human are analogous. The organ symmetry of a pig and human are very close, right down to the number of valves in the heart.....and their insulin is often used in humans.

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
[41:11] Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
First of all, the sky is still gas now, even though this seems to imply it is no longer so. Also, science has shown that gas typically doesn't talk.


Chapter: 21, Verse: 30
Have not "those who disbelieve" known heavens and earth were of one piece,
We parted them and, We made every living thing of water
Will they not then believe?
This has nothing to do with the Big Bang.



Big Crunch and Reversal of Time

Chapter: 21, Verse: 104
"The day" when, We shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolls up a written scroll.
As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it.

Chapter: 77, Verse: 11
And, the messengers are brought into their time appointed
(The prophets will be returned into their time as time runs backwards)

With a very large degree of confidence we can say that there will never be a big crunch nor "reversal of time." WMAP shows the universe is flat, not closed. As such, expansion continues forever. That the Koran predicts this should be a sign that you are reading into it what you want, not what is true.




Dimensional Travel

Chapter: 25, Verse: 25
A day when the heavens and the clouds will be rent
Asunder and the angels will be sent down "A grand descent

Chapter: 18, Verse: 47
Think of the day when, We remove the hills,
And you see the earth emerging and We gather them together,
As to leave not one of them behind.

Chapter: 84, Verse: 19
That you shall "ride" on from plane to plane
WTF? This doesn't say anything about anything. This is some of the worst grasping at fictitious straws I've ever seen.


Pre-fixed Measurement of G-d

"We have not created the heavens and the earth ,
And all that lies between them , but with a purpose, According to a pre-fixed measurement........46(3)
I have no idea what you're talking about.


Finiteness

" Every order (event) has an appointed time, And ye will come to know" .......6 (67)
Huh? Wouldn't this be the default assumption for any culture? What good is an event that will happen in an infinite amount of time, which is easily synonymous with "never" and hence with "non-event" (ergo a logical contradiction).


Divine Evolution

" Glorify the Name of your Lord, Most high, Who creates and proportions, Who measures then guides"........87(1-3)

"Our Lord is He, Who gave everything its nature, and directs it (through life).......20 (50)
This is simply pathetic. You do realize there's more than one way to "guide," right? This could just as easily be understood as confirming a creationistic outlook in which God creates all life and then sustains it, providing moral and spiritual guidance for man and that which lies within his domain. Your all-powerful God is in control of everything in nature and hence directs it as he sees fit. This is not an endorsement of evolution according to any reasonable standard. Stop cherry-picking.


Plurality of the Heavens and Earth

" Allah it is , Who has created, seven heavens, and of the earth-like thereof..the commandment comes down among them gradually, so that ye may know that Allah is able to all things , He surrounds all things in knowledge".....65(12)
So what are the seven heavens and how is that supported by science? I hate to tell you this, but there are a hell of a lot more than seven things out there. This is just more blatant grasping.


" All praise be to Allah, Sustainer and Nourisher of the heavens,Sustainer and Nourisher of the earth, and Sustainer and Nourisher of the Worlds"....45(37)
Bingo, and now perhaps you see how your quotes about "evolution" don't actually pertain to evolution. It is a reference to Allah as a sustainer and nourisher, not an endorsement that life has evolved. That the quote doesn't lose any of its meaning when viewed through creationist glasses should tell you something about its pointlessness.

[River]

- Lobstrosity

THE LAYERS OF THE ATMOSPHERE



The Earth has all the attributes that are needed for life. One of them is the atmosphere, which serves as a shield protecting living things. Today, it is an established fact that the atmosphere is made up of different layers lying on top of one another. Just as it is described in the Qur'an, the atmosphere is made up of exactly seven layers. This is certainly one of the miracles of the Qur'an.

One fact about the universe revealed in the verses of the Qur'an is that the sky is made up of seven layers.

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things." (The Qur'an, 2:29)

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate." (The Qur'an, 41:12)

The word "heavens", which appears in many verses in the Qur'an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth, as well as the entire universe. Given this meaning of the word, it is seen that the Earth's sky, or the atmosphere, is made up of seven layers.

Indeed, today it is known that the world's atmosphere consists of different layers that lie on top of each other. Furthermore, it consists, just as is described in the Qur'an, of exactly seven layers. In a scientific source, the subject is described as follows:

Scientists have found that the atmosphere consists of several layers. The layers differ in such physical properties as pressure and the types of gasses. The layer of the atmosphere closest to Earth is called the TROPOSPHERE. It contains about 90% of the total mass of the atmosphere. The layer above the troposphere is called the STRATOSPHERE. The OZONE LAYER is the part of the stratosphere where absorption of ultraviolet rays occurs. The layer above the stratosphere is called the MESOSPHERE. The THERMOSPHERE lies above the mesosphere. The ionized gases form a layer within the thermosphere called the IONOSPHERE. The outermost part of Earth's atmosphere extends from about 480 km out to 960 km. This part is called the EXOSPHERE. (Carolyn Sheets, Robert Gardner, Samuel F. Howe; General Science, Allyn and Bacon Inc. Newton, Massachusetts, 1985, s. 319-322)

If we count the number of layers cited in this source, we see that the atmosphere consists of exactly seven layers, just as stated in the verse.

1. Troposphere

2. Stratosphere

3. Ozonosphere

4. Mesosphere

5. Thermosphere

6. Ionosphere

7. Exosphere

Another important miracle on this subject is mentioned in the statement "(He) revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate.", in verse 12 of Sura Fussilet. In other words, in the verse, God states that He assigned each heaven its own duty. Truly, as seen in previous chapters, each one of these layers has vital duties for the benefit of human kind and all other living things on the Earth. Each layer has a particular function, ranging from forming rain to preventing harmful rays, from reflecting radio waves, to averting the harmful effects of meteors.

One of these functions, for example, is stated in a scientific source as follows:

Earth's atmosphere has 7 layers. The lowest layer is called troposphere. Rain, snow and wind only take place in the troposphere. (http://muttley.ucdavis.edu/Book/Atmosphere/beginner/layers-01.html)

It is a great miracle that these facts, which could not possibly be discovered without the technology of the 20th century, were explicitly stated by the Qur'an 1,400 years ago.

http://www.creationofuniverse.com/html/science_07.html

[River]

-Lobstrosity

I disagree with scientists that say the Universe will "obviously expand forever" due to not enough matter (i.e providing energy for contraction).

However, this is not the case . Contraction of the Universe is Energy dependent. And matter is not the only form of Energy. Energy is Dependent on Entropy. And If Overall Entropy decreases it should trigger the "Contraction phase".

We live in a Closed Universe that came about through Singularity and will collapse (contract) back to Singularity. However the Next Universe will expand (2nd Big Bang) into an Open Universe in which it will be Exponentially larger than the Universe we live in now. It will have far Superior Dimensions and Splendour......and it will never contract again.

-RIVER


__________________
"We will show them our proofs in the horizons, and within themselves, until they realize that this is the truth. Is your Lord not sufficient as a witness of all things?" [ Holy Qur'an 41:53 ]

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity



This has nothing to do with the Big Bang.





This is the Big Bang. Probably the most clearest and concise explanation of the Big Bang.

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
Destruction of Solar System

"(Watch for the Day), When the Sun is folded up, When the stars fall, loosing their light" [ 81 (1-2) Qur'an]
When our sun dies the stars in the sky will not "fall," nor will they lose their light. The Koran doesn't seem to know that the stars in the sky are other suns and as such it seems like this is evidence against its existence as a book of knowledge and science.


"When the sky is rent asunder , And it becomes red like a molten bath of copper. Then which of the favours of your Lord, You may deny"....[55 (37-38) Qur'an]



" The sky will look as the Molten copper".....[70 (8) Qur'an]
Umm, the Bible predicts this, too. It's called a fiery apocalypse. If you're going to envision a dramatic destruction of Earth, this is the most sensical assumption a God-fearing people can make.



"When the earth will be changed to other than the Earth, heavens will also be changed, and they will come forth unto Allah, The One, the Almighty......[14(48) Qur'an]
Another reference to what seems to be a big crunch that will never happen.


Reduction/Contraction of Earth


" See they not? How we are Reducing the Earth gradually , from its all sides"......[13 (41) Qur'an]
What contraction of Earth? Are you saying that the Earth is contracting? This seems like a big miss since your book is claiming there were people around to witness this contraction.


Spiral Type of Expansion

(Consider the heaven) "Rotation is its inbuilt characteristics" .....[86(11) Qur'an]
Oh come now, this isn't a reference to the spiral nature of our galaxy (I have no idea what a spiral type of expansion is). This is a blatant reference to the fact that the heavens appear to rotate around us. This is proof of the ignorance of the Koran and the fact that it assumes we are stationary within a rotating universe. This is why rotation is seen as its "inbuilt characteristics." How about you find some reference in there to the fact that the Earth orbits the sun and the sun orbits a galactic center. That might prove the Koran has some knowledge of how our galaxy works.


Excessive Temperatures of an Aged Earth

" ( Consider the events), When the oceans will Boil over" [81(6) Qur'an]
Once again, fiery apocalypse. Once again, the Bible predicts this as well. No mention of the fact that this will be caused by a gross enlargment of the sun that will reduce the "number of the heavens" by two. It seems like that would be an easy little factual tidbit to include, doesn't it?


Possible Meteorite Death

" When earth, is shaken again and again, to her utmost convulsions, and it throws up, Her burden from within"...99(1-2)

"The earth will be ground to atoms, pounded over pounded"....89(21)
Why would the earth be shaken again and again, pounded over pounded. This implies many meteor strikes at once, not death by one large impact. You're completely reaching.


"Thou see the mountains, And think them firmly fixed, But they shall pass away, As the clouds pass away"....[27 (88) Qur'an]

"And the mountains, they will become like carded wool" 101 (5)
Perhaps this is an endorsement of volcanoes? Maybe it's talking about erosion? These statements mean nothing.


New Creation

" Are thou not aware of the fact , That God has created the heavens and the earth , In accordance with a Divine Purpose. He can , if He so wills, do away with you , And bring forth an entirely new creation, It is not difficult for God" . ....14 (19-20)
New creation of what? If this is another reference to a cyclic universe, this can be taken as another reference that is wrong.

[River]

-Lobstrosity




Not all Scientists believe the Universe will expand forever



-Lobstrosity

I disagree with scientists that say the Universe will "obviously expand forever" due to not enough matter (i.e providing energy for contraction).

However, this is not the case . Contraction of the Universe is Energy dependent. And matter is not the only form of Energy. Energy is Dependent on Entropy. And If Overall Entropy decreases it should trigger the "Contraction phase".

We live in a Closed Universe that came about through Singularity and will collapse (contract) back to Singularity. However the Next Universe will expand (2nd Big Bang) into an Open Universe in which it will be Exponentially larger than the Universe we live in now. It will have far Superior Dimensions and Splendour......and it will never contract again.

-RIVER

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity

New creation of what? If this is another reference to a cyclic universe, this can be taken as another reference that is wrong. [/B]


-Lobstrosity


No, this is in reference to an open system universe. One that hasnt been created (yet)

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity



Perhaps this is an endorsement of volcanoes? Maybe it's talking about erosion? These statements mean nothing.



[/B]


-Lobstrosity


Say, for example that it is endorsing volacanoes...or erosion. Then yes, these statements do mean something...as you can see erosion/ volcanoes are scientific / natural phenomena and process. You just contradicted yourself.

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
[B]-Lobstrosity

I disagree with scientists that say the Universe will "obviously expand forever" due to not enough matter (i.e providing energy for contraction).

However, this is not the case . Contraction of the Universe is Energy dependent. And matter is not the only form of Energy. Energy is Dependent on Entropy. And If Overall Entropy decreases it should trigger the "Contraction phase".

We live in a Closed Universe that came about through Singularity and will collapse (contract) back to Singularity. However the Next Universe will expand (2nd Big Bang) into an Open Universe in which it will be Exponentially larger than the Universe we live in now. It will have far Superior Dimensions and Splendour......and it will never contract again.
No, River, we live in a flat universe. It will not contract. I hate to tell you this, but scientists out there who study this sort of thing know much more about it than you do and the consensus among them now is that expansion will continue forever. In fact, it appears as if the expansion is actually speeding up, which is the opposite of what one would see were the universe closed. Parameters do allow for contraction under the current cosmological model, however recent evidence has provided the values for those parameters and the values determine that the fate of the universe will be infinte expansion.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101fate.html
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/mr_content.html

You can endorse your own brand of scientific ignorance if you wish in order to pretend the Koran is saying profound, knowledgeable things if you wish, but don't put it forward as evidence to others who are less biased.

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity






What contraction of Earth? Are you saying that the Earth is contracting? This seems like a big miss since your book is claiming there were people around to witness this contraction.


[/B]

The correct word choice was " reduction" as in mass.

[Coragyps]

Spam. Not ham.

DNFTT. He's already full.

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity




Umm, the Bible predicts this, too. It's called a fiery apocalypse. If you're going to envision a dramatic destruction of Earth, this is the most sensical assumption a God-fearing people can make.







-Lobstrosity


And whats wrong with the Bible predicting something similar. Different religions have different degrees of Truth.

[River]

Originally posted by Coragyps
Spam. Not ham.

DNFTT. He's already full.


And your point is?

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things." (The Qur'an, 2:29)

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate." (The Qur'an, 41:12)

The word "heavens", which appears in many verses in the Qur'an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth, as well as the entire universe. Given this meaning of the word, it is seen that the Earth's sky, or the atmosphere, is made up of seven layers.
That's interesting, then, because this leaves no room for any of the heavens that contain actual heavenly bodies. The stars and planets do not reside in our atmosphere and as such the Koran is missing a few "layers" of heaven. It seems that the Koran is thusly grossly inaccurate.

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
This is the Big Bang. Probably the most clearest and concise explanation of the Big Bang.
No, River, it's not a description of the Big Bang. Show that quote to any cosmologist just as is and ask them what it's describing. See what kind of answer you get. Not one will think of the Big Bang.

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
. Parameters do allow for contraction under the current cosmological model, however recent evidence has provided the values for those parameters and the values determine that the fate of the universe will be infinte expansion.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101fate.html
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/mr_content.html

You can endorse your own brand of scientific ignorance if you wish in order to pretend the Koran is saying profound, knowledgeable things if you wish, but don't put it forward as evidence to others who are less biased.

-Lobstrosity

Yes, it is True the Universe is Flat. However, it hasnt been confirmed that the Universe will expand forever. Recent evidence seems to be "jumping ship" several times over the last decade. I wouldnt rule out the possbility of " contraction" . To do so, I would deprive myself of thinking scientifically. Like I said earlier Contraction of the Universe is Entropy dependent.

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
Yes, it is True the Universe is Flat. However, it hasnt been confirmed that the Universe will expand forever. Recent evidence seems to be "jumping ship" several times over the last decade. I wouldnt rule out the possbility of " contraction" . To do so, I would deprive myself of thinking scientifically. Like I said earlier Contraction of the Universe is Entropy dependent.
No, contraction is not entropy dependent. Furthermore, a flat universe cannot contract. The geometry of the universe directly corresponds to its fate.

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
Say, for example that it is endorsing volacanoes...or erosion. Then yes, these statements do mean something...as you can see erosion/ volcanoes are scientific / natural phenomena and process. You just contradicted yourself.
No River, I'm pointing out that you're just pulling shit out of your ass in order to make the Koran seem impressive when it's really not. All you're doing is cherry-picking and attributing descriptions that do not actually fit based on hindsight. That you can't tell what the hell the quote refers to is a sign that it's not actually saying anything. How can a quote with about thirty different valid scientific/unscientific interpretations be considered evidence that the Koran has scientific validity? A quote so vague as to have multiple interpretations that are all equally valid is not proof of scientific knowledge. Proof is only that which can be considered unambiguous.

In short, say for a moment it is endorsing vocanoes or erosion...the fact that you don't know which indicates the science you're attributing to the Koran is bullshit. It could also be talking about divine wrath, deathrays from Jupiter, giant alien yoyos...all of which are unscientific / supernatural phenomena and processes.

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
The correct word choice was " reduction" as in mass.
Ok, so what reduction in mass? How exactly does this phrase apply: "See they not? How we are Reducing the Earth gradually , from its all sides"......[13 (41) Qur'an]"

[pariah]

lobstrosity...youre my hero!! :p

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity


This is a blatant reference to the fact that the heavens appear to rotate around us.





-Lobstrosity


blatant reference....what lies! Is this an example of your inbuilt bias at work?

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
No River, I'm pointing out that you're just pulling shit out of your ass in order to make the Koran seem impressive when it's really.....


-Lobstrosity


And all you are doing is frenetically trying to disprove the Qur'an so that your mental state can be at ease....perhaps you should take a few steps back and realize that there may be some possibility that the Qur'an is representing scientific phenomena. This I know because I have read many works by learned Scientists and others as well as my science background. Perhaps you should try to research the context in which the statement were used without blindly attacking anything that doesnt match with your dogma .

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity



Why would the earth be shaken again and again, pounded over pounded. This implies many meteor strikes at once, not death by one large impact. You're completely reaching.








-Lobstrosity


Do not use distractors to undermine the credibility of what I say.....whether the verse is referring to a single meteor ( or possibly asteroid) or a Meteor shower...it still outlines a Scientific possibility.

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
blatant reference....what lies! Is this an example of your inbuilt bias at work?
*gasp* the people who wrote the Koran couldn't have been as ignorant as those who wrote the Bible...could they? Lies! Damn lies!

Look up at the night sky, River. What do you see? EVERYTHING ROTATES AROUND US. It is thusly claimed that rotation is the inherent nature of ALL the heavens. This is not in any way interpretable as some amazing knowledge of galactic rotation. All cultures claimed that the heavens rotated--it's a pretty easy observation to make when you don't actually know any better. As I said before, go into the Koran and show me passages which can be unambiguously interpreted to show that the Earth orbits the sun and the sun circles some "great center." If the writers of the Koran knew as much as you say about the workings of the universe, this is pretty rudimentary and important stuff here. This should definitely be there in plain English (er, or arabic or whatever). So please go find such a passage (and make sure it's unambiguous).

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
No, River, it's not a description of the Big Bang. Show that quote to any cosmologist just as is and ask them what it's describing. See what kind of answer you get. Not one will think of the Big Bang.

Actually some cosmologists do consider it a (concise) portrayal of Big Bang.

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
*gasp* the people who wrote the Koran couldn't have been as ignorant as those who wrote the Bible...could they? Lies! Damn lies!

Look up at the night sky, River. What do you see? [b]EVERYTHING ROTATES AROUND


Not to me. The Qur'an has a very thorough concept of orbits, rotations, and periods. It need not need more.

[River]

-Lobstrosity


Lobstrosity .....your'e my hero!:p :p :p

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
And all you are doing is frenetically trying to disprove the Qur'an so that your mental state can be at ease....perhaps you should take a few steps back and realize that there may be some possibility that the Qur'an is representing scientific phenomena. This I know because I have read many works by learned Scientists and others as well as my science background. Perhaps you should try to research the context in which the statement were used without blindly attacking anything that doesnt match with your dogma .
and
Do not use distractors to undermine the credibility of what I say.....whether the verse is referring to a single meteor ( or possibly asteroid) or a Meteor shower...it still outlines a Scientific possibility.
I'm not trying to do anything frenetically and it has nothing to do with my mental state. I'm simply pointing out that your statements don't actually convey anything, let alone what you purport they do. Who gives a rat's ass if they are scientifically possible? Your claim is that the Koran knows science people back then couldn't have known and that it shows this unambiguously, however the evidence you offer to support this claim is woefully inadequate (and really quite silly). Don't be surprised when people call you on stupid assertions. If your assertions weren't so dumb I would take a few steps back and consider them. As it is I've fully considered them and responded to them as the crap they truly are. Your justifications for the "seven heavens" leaves out the actual heavens, your justification for the big crunch is to make some bogus claim about entropy... It's all smoke and mirrors.

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
The geometry of the universe directly corresponds to its fate.


Ya , when does geometry of "anything" correspond to " anything" .Prove to me exactly why geometry is the primary factor in determing the fate of the universe.

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
Not to me. The Qur'an has a very thorough concept of orbits, rotations, and periods. It need not need more.

As I said before:
Originally posted by Lobstrosity
As I said before, go into the Koran and show me passages which can be unambiguously interpreted to show that the Earth orbits the sun and the sun circles some "great center." If the writers of the Koran knew as much as you say about the workings of the universe, this is pretty rudimentary and important stuff here. This should definitely be there in plain English (er, or arabic or whatever). So please go find such a passage (and make sure it's unambiguous).

[River]

My assertions are not dumb. They are backed by the Scientists and Physicians.

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
As I said before:


You play word games....making clear verses appear nebulous.

[pariah]

Originally posted by River
My assertions are not dumb. They are backed by the Scientists and Physicians.

scientists and physicians say a lot of things. the trouble is seperating the quacks from the rest of them.

[River]

Originally posted by pariahSS
scientists and physicians say a lot of things. the trouble is seperating the quacks from the rest of them.

I agree.

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
Ya , when does geometry of "anything" correspond to " anything" .Prove to me exactly why geometry is the primary factor in determing the fate of the universe.

http://cbl.leeds.ac.uk/educ5250/Marthas_Crew/geometry.htm
http://www.geocities.com/jessicaruthberry/
http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/astro101/lec30.htm
http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/astro101/lec31.htm
http://www.princeton.edu/pr/news/98/q1/0108-universe.html

The parameters that directly affect the fate of the universe also directly determine the universe's geometry. The two are fundamentally and intrinsically linked.

From the last link: "Knowing this distance is equivalent to knowing the global geometry of the universe, or the ultimate fate of the universe."

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
You play word games....making clear verses appear nebulous.
I play no word games. None of the debating tactics I have used are dishonest in any way. I don't make straw men or throw out red herrings. I simply address the claims you make and the evidence you use to support them. I make your "clear" verses seem nebulous because they are nebulous or flat out incorrect. You yourself agreed that many can have multiple interpretations, which in itself is the very epitome of "nebulous." If I were merely playing word games you would be able to refute my statements. It just so happens that you cannot refute them because they are accurate. I know it might come as a blow, but your book is no more of a science book that the Bible or any other book of ancient mythology. You can cherry-pick them all for nebulous verses that could maybe possibly if read a certain way under a given light with a few assumptions thrown in have some scientific implications.


My assertions are not dumb. They are backed by the Scientists and Physicians.
No, they are not. They have as much significance as your "amazing statistics" do, which is to say none.

[TheDiddleyMan]

River, can I ask you a question? I


If the people at the time of Mohamed did not know what about the phenomenon, and Mohamed couldn't of written about it without divine quidance because it was beyond knowledge, than why does Allah ask "Do they not see it?" in 13:41 and others. It implies that Allah is asking them why they do not see the obvious. How can he blame them for not seeing something that was far beyond their knowledge?

River, it is my opinion that you are continuing to spam. You are providing passages without interpreting them or making arguments, or very little.

What I think you should do is take the best three or four passages, and perform exegesis. Interpret the passages you are talking about. Show that your interpretation makes sense in light of two things:
1) Modern science. And provide details.
2) History - what I mean is this: If the passage contains scientific phenomena unknown to people of the time of writing, how would they have interpreted the passage? Would it have meant something to them?

You need to show as well, though, that the passage *only* makes sense in your interpretation. Otherwise you are guilty of simply reading stuff into the passage in light of science. You need to show that the verse is discussing the scientific phenomena, and not a reference to something else.

Let me give an example. There is the verse about the heavens expanding - 51:47. I have read older translations of that verse and expanding is not mentioned.


Here are examples:

051.047
YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

The expanding translation is a translation provided by those who wish to read science in the Quran, namely that the Universe is expanding. I am not saying it is wrong. I am saying it is only one possible translation. It is not the only reasonable interpretation of that verse. Otherwise I doubt that translators would have continually mistranslated the verse.

And contrary to what you say, similar things can be done with the bible. You should read Grant Jeffrey's "The Signature of God." It is filled with many of the same type of arguments. I will provide examples when I can dig up the book.

Either way, it is time to stop the silly bickering (I am not talking just to you), and you must become serious about this if you want us to take you serious. Make your argument in detail, discussing a few relevant passages, rather than printing fifty at a time. Nobody has the time to respond to all of those.



Thanks,

Kevin

[lpetrich]

Originally posted by River
Not to me. The Qur'an has a very thorough concept of orbits, rotations, and periods. It need not need more. Any bets on when River will discover heliocentrism in the Koran?

Also, I'm not impressed with Koranic embryology. It does not describe anything really interesting or nontrivial, like how the amniotic sac or bag of waters is really a vestigial eggshell, and how being pregnant is keeping a fertilized egg inside and nourishing it until it is ready to be "laid".

[River]

Originally posted by TheDiddleyMan
River, can I ask you a question? I


If the people at the time of Mohamed did not know what about the phenomenon, and Mohamed couldn't of written about it without divine quidance because it was beyond knowledge, than why does Allah ask "Do they not see it?" in 13:41 and others. It implies that Allah is asking them why they do not see the obvious. How can he blame them for not seeing something that was far beyond their knowledge?


Kevin



Well, Since the Qur'an is believed to be a Universal Scripture, I believe the expression " Do they not see it"? as being addressed to us .


Yes, it is possible to interpret Biblical passages in a Scientific manner, though it requires someone skilled in Extraction . It is easier with the Qur'an because the Qur'an is a speech ( a document) speaking directly to us.

I've chosen to provide a list , for the more critical minded of us to reflect upon. I believe it is necessary or else we get a few "uninsightful creatures" that appear to fixate upon one verse without taking the context or simply overlooking the rest of the scientific phenomena.



I do not believe the materials are spam. Very few people realize that Islam as a whole is pro-Science. And people tend to generalize ...if they see that in their religion , the world was made in 5,777 years....then they generalize believing that Islam somehow follows the same line of weakness. It is a sad fact. I believe it is my duty to stand up against this political injustice...since no one else will. I realize the odds are against me , since this after all an " atheists forum" but I want people to actively realize that Religion doesnt have to be falsely mythological or based on Superstition. I want people to Realize that Evolutionism and Creation Science are not the only alternatives. That there is a wide spectrum.....that encompases all.

Once again, I thank you for your thoughts . I really respect your advice


Peace

River

[River]

Originally posted by lpetrich
Any bets on when River will discover heliocentrism in the Koran?

Also, I'm not impressed with Koranic embryology. It does not describe anything really interesting or nontrivial, like how the amniotic sac or bag of waters is really a vestigial eggshell, and how being pregnant is keeping a fertilized egg inside and nourishing it until it is ready to be "laid".


The Quran doesnt support heliocentrism....that is a false and skewed implication that missionaries picked. The Qur'an supports Anthrocentrism theory...that man is the center (symbollically)....

Like I said the Qur'an is a Book of Signs.

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
I know it might come as a blow, but your book is no more of a science book that the Bible or any other book of ancient mythology.





No, the Bible is certainly less Scientific relative to Qur'an. I do not see prominent scientists/ anatomists/ embryologists (i.e Maurice Bucaille, Keith Moore) writing books of this caliber.

The Bible says that the world was formed in 7 days. The Qur'an says 6 Eras. The Bible says Noah's Flood was Global. The Qur'an says that the Flood was regional. Certainly these 2 small examples disproves your statement about them being in the same category.

[Autonemesis]

Originally posted by River
[BHowever, this is not the case . Contraction of the Universe is Energy dependent. And matter is not the only form of Energy. Energy is Dependent on Entropy. And If Overall Entropy decreases it should trigger the "Contraction phase". [/B]

Which verse says that? :rolleyes:

Your nick is apt. I don't see this flow slacking off any time soon.

[River]

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
http://cbl.leeds.ac.uk/educ5250/Marthas_Crew/geometry.htm
http://www.geocities.com/jessicaruthberry/
http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/astro101/lec30.htm
http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/astro101/lec31.htm
http://www.princeton.edu/pr/news/98/q1/0108-universe.html

The parameters that directly affect the fate of the universe also directly determine the universe's geometry. The two are fundamentally and intrinsically linked.

From the last link: "Knowing this distance is equivalent to knowing the global geometry of the universe, or the ultimate fate of the universe."


Interesting links...perhaps there really is some correlation between geometry and fate. However, the main argument that scientists posed is " not enough matter" to fuel contraction. This stance could very well change considering the hot topic of "matter" and what constitutes matter as well as the incessent wavering on " Forever expansion" or " Contraction " theories. If I were a betting man , I would bet that contraction theory is probably true. The Qur'an " appears" to be supporting the Contraction theory, though this might not necessarily be the case. Perhaps it is describing another form of " Implosion" scenario that is more difficult to visualize .

[River]

Does anyone else have any comments?

[simian]

So the Koran has advanced science in it? Predict the next great scientific discovery. That would be impressive. Do it 3 or 4 times and your claim may hold water. Until then, it very much appears you are picking and choosing verses after the fact to find anything that remotely looks correct based on today's knowledge and twisting verses to support your claim. No more impressive than "bible and advanced science claims" or Nostrodamus prophecies claims.

Simian

[River]

The Quran is a Book of Signs. How many times will I have to repeat this.

No more impressive than "bible and advanced science claims" or Nostrodamus prophecies claims, You say?


Well, I already explained the Bible.....it is somewhat generalized....and not very scientific ...though there are some truths to it.


The Book of Enoch is more solid Biblical Scripture when it comes to scientific phenomena....It says that life originates from water and describes orbits in a decent manner.

Nostradamus' quatrains were ambiguous and vague and intentionally so....because he wanted to escape persecution.


P.S : Stop saying " like the Bible" without giving proof? What is this some sort of psychological defense mechanism to make one feel important (authoritative)???

[simian]

Originally posted by River
The Quran is a Book of Signs. How many times will I have to repeat this.

No more impressive than "bible and advanced science claims" or Nostrodamus prophecies claims, You say?


Well, I already explained the Bible.....it is somewhat generalized....and not very scientific ...though there are some truths to it.


The Book of Enoch is more solid Biblical Scripture when it comes to scientific phenomena....It says that life originates from water and describes orbits in a decent manner.

Nostradamus' quatrains were ambiguous and vague and intentionally so....because he wanted to escape persecution.


P.S : Stop saying " like the Bible" without giving proof? What is this some sort of psychological defense mechanism to make one feel important (authoritative)???

I say "like the Bible" (or rather your writings being like those claiming the bible has advanced scientific knowledge) because, well, see the following:

http://www.geocities.com/vr_junkie/thebibleandscience.htm

http://members.aol.com/njcnewsgrp/njcbibsc.htm

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/scibible.htm

I see huge similarities in the claims of those sites and your claims. I see no differences (well, other than which "one, true holy book").

Simian

[River]

Originally posted by simian

I see huge similarities in the claims of those sites and your claims. I see no differences (well, other than which "one, true holy book").

Simian


You see similarities because you want to " see" similarities.
It is desire that dictates your actions.



25:4 Quran
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged, and others have helped him at it." In truth it is they who have put forward an iniquity and a falsehood.

25:5
And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening."

25:6
Say: "The (Qur'an) was sent down by Him who knows the mystery (that is) in the heavens and the earth: verily He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

[fando]

Originally posted by River
You see similarities because you want to " see" similarities.
It is desire that dictates your actions.

Hello River! Can't the same be said of your interpretations of the Quran? If not, what excludes you from the allegation that you're just seeing what you want to see in these scriptures? You're seeing a lot of agreement between Science and Quaran, but many of us think you're just trying to shove a square peg into a circular hole.

[Demigawd]

Originally posted by River
25:4 Quran
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged, and others have helped him at it." In truth it is they who have put forward an iniquity and a falsehood.


Just like a christian, a muslim can whip out scripture that "foretells" of skepticism and ridicule. Well, of course the writers would include such awarning. Skepticism is not a child of the modern era. I'm quite sure not everyone bought these myths hook, line, and sinker back then, and rightly so. Mere assertion and later tradition does not a fact make.

It is desire that dictates your actions.

Oh, the irony! And the psychological projection is classic as well. The theist shreaks at his own image.

[River]

Originally posted by fando
Hello River! Can't the same be said of your interpretations of the Quran? If not, what excludes you from the allegation that you're just seeing what you want to see in these scriptures? You're seeing a lot of agreement between Science and Quaran, but many of us think you're just trying to shove a square peg into a circular hole.


Because I've read Islamic and Atheist materials (as well Christian and Brahmanic materials) for over a decade. While, most people here (are amateurs) and only wish that Islamic materials conform to their standard mythos. Most here have only a slight idea about Islamic theory and only know about Islam from anti-Islamic websites and or/ online forums.

[Asha'man]

Originally posted by River
Does anyone else have any comments?

Yes, I have a few.

As an astronomer, your astronomy points really suck. As I said before (in another thread), the Big Bang is clearly not described in any way, shape, or form by the Koran. I've read your quotes, and am utterly unimpressed. I have to agree 100% with Lobstrosity on those points.

The stars do not "fall," and the universe won't "contract." These statements are just plain wrong, and utterly unsupported by science. You have proved your entire position wrong simply by mentioning them.


I'll ask this again, since it was ignored earlier: does the Koran mention the human female egg? It doesn't take much to figure out about "seed," and even the ancient Jews knew about that. But if the Koran had any scientific truth at all to it, it would mention that "seed" wasn't enough, that there was an egg involved as well. I bet it isn't mentioned, which is why you avoided the question earlier.

And how about germs? Are they mentioned in any form? Clearly, if there are rules about diet, designed to keep followers healthy, there should also be clear rules designed to prevent the spread of infection. I know the Bible skipped that point, did the Koran do any better?

[Kat_Somm_Faen]

Oh nooo not again?

Where does the Sun set again? In a pool of murky water?

You cant pick and chose the stuff that supports your position but simply disregard the evidnce to the opposite my man.

This Arabic version of God seems not to have a clue about the basics of the Copernican view of the Solar system and when it makes any reference to anything else it is so vague it can prove anything. Sun sets in a pool of murky water with a hissing sound all witnessed by Zul whatever ( presumably Alexander the Great ).

And yes, the Universe is not going to contract as per the work of people working on the COBE satelite....

Our fate is to infinitely expand and there will be no "reversal" of time.

I told you once before - get real!

...

Just like arguing after the fact has happened the Nostradamus people pull stuff out of his "prophecy". They are yet to actually PREDICT anything due to the fact it is ust BS. Once something happens they are quick to propose some entirely vague thing means something.

If Quran is such a good science tool - why didn't the Arabs use this "perfect" "scientific" "knowledge" to travel to the Moon, discover genes, cure cancer, come up with the theory of Relativity and on and on and on...

Yeah space is a tapestry - come on!

[Demigawd]

Originally posted by River
Because I've read Islamic and Atheist materials (as well Christian and Brahmanic materials) for over a decade. While, most people here (are amateurs) and only wish that Islamic materials conform to their standard mythos. Most here have only a slight idea about Islamic theory and only know about Islam from anti-Islamic websites and or/ online forums.

While in college, I took a graduate level course in Middle Eastern history. It started with the rise of Islam and went to the present day (which was the early '90s then). The material I read and critiqued were written by native Middle Easterners and foreign-to-the-region scholars. The Koran (forgive my spelling as this is how I know the name) was also studied, as well as the major Islamic sects.

Your holy book is no different than any other mythology I've studied. Oh, there's variances in the ornaments because of cultural differences, I'll grant you that. However, they all start with the beginning of existence and claim to prophecize its conclusion.

Theistic apologists start with the premise their particular dogma is true, and then view reality through that particular lense. Prophecies are studied, and current or past events are nebulously attached. Those become the most spectalular and outrageous conspiracy theories.

[pariah]

but katt som faen, that is intentional allegory. as is likely to be every other peice of science that is compltely wrong and therefore does not support his position. :boohoo:

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
Interesting links...perhaps there really is some correlation between geometry and fate.
Yes, there is. And it's more than "some."

However, the main argument that scientists posed is " not enough matter" to fuel contraction. This stance could very well change considering the hot topic of "matter" and what constitutes matter as well as the incessent wavering on " Forever expansion" or " Contraction " theories.
There is no incessant wavering on whether the universe will expand forever or contract. Before we had empirical values for certain parameters there was no way to know the fate/geometry of our universe for sure and thus both were an option. All we could do was speculate. With COBE and WMAP, however, we were able to obtain highly precise measurements of those parameters and hence determine with great confidence the shape of our universe. These experiments don't deal with what constitutes "matter," they deal with the shape of the anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background. The amount and type of matter in the universe can be inferred from the WMAP data, so your claims that wavering definitions of "matter" could impact the results are baseless.

Go here:
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/sg_parameters1.html

don't forget to keep hitting "next" at the bottom of the page. Learn where cosmology really stands today (and keep in mind that this is all using the revolutionary empirical data only just revealed in March of this year).

Also, for a summary: http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/mr_limits.html

[River]

Originally posted by Asha'man
Yes, I have a few.

As an astronomer, your astronomy points really suck. As I said before (in another thread), the Big Bang is clearly not described in any way, shape, or form by the Koran. I've read your quotes, and am utterly unimpressed. I have to agree 100% with Lobstrosity on those points.

The stars do not "fall," and the universe won't "contract."

I'll ask this again, since it was ignored earlier: does the Koran mention the human female egg? It doesn't take much to figure out about "seed," and even the ancient Jews knew about that. But if the Koran had any scientific truth at all to it, it would mention that "seed" wasn't enough, that there was an egg involved as well. I bet it isn't mentioned, which is why you avoided the question earlier.

And how about germs? Are they mentioned in any form? Clearly, if there are rules about diet, designed to keep followers healthy, there should also be clear rules designed to prevent the spread of infection. I know the Bible skipped that point, did the Koran do any better?


Well the stars that " fall" could be poetic. I mean the Qur'an is a Scripture that lies somewhere between poetry and prose. If you dont believe me....listen to a Quranic recitation by a professional muezzin....I'm not just talkin' out of my arse. However, perhaps "fall" is a pretty way of saying "cease to exist". Like I said the Qur'an is not a Scientific textbook. Its intention is to guide people to a state of Perfect Purity.

I believe the Universe will contract. I have spoke on this before and you already have my opinion.

The verses I presented are legit . This is why less than 1/20th of them were reasonably debated.

I am not sure if the egg is mentioned. I know the womb is mentioned in the Qur'an. Supporting /supplemental Islamic literature such as Hadiths describe the gestation period as well as germs.

[River]

On authority of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (as)

Jabir asked, "What are the shining stars, which are at a fixed distance from us and are always in motion?"

Ja'far as-Sadiq (as) replied, "Each star is a small universe within the great universe. It is a collection of heavenly bodies, i.e. a sun and it's satellites. They are in perpetual motion so that they may not fall down and break up. If their movement stops, the universe will come to an end. It is perpetual motion, which creates life. In other words perpetual motion itself is life. If the motion stops, life would cease to exist."

Jabir asked, "What is the shape and form of stars in space?"

Ja'far as-Sadiq (as) replied, "Some stars are solid, some liquid and some in gaseous state."

Jabir said in wonderment, "How can we believe that stars may be in a gaseous state. Is it possible for gases to shine as the stars do at night?"

Ja'far as-Sadiq (as) said, "Not all the stars, but only those which are very hot, are in the form of gas. Excessive heat turns them into gas and makes them shine, just as very high temperature of our sun makes it shine. It is also in a gaseous state."

Jabir asked, "How does the movement of stars keep them from falling?"

Ja'far as-Sadiq (as) said, "Put a stone in a sling and swing it round your head. The stone will stay in the sling so long as you are rotating it. But as soon as you stop the rotation, the stone will fall down on the ground. In the same way the perpetual motion of stars keeps them from falling down."

Jabir asked, "Are their human beings in the stars? You have said just now that each star is a collection of heavenly bodies."

Ja'far as-Sadiq (as) replied, "I cannot say that there are human beings in other worlds, but I can say that there are living beings, whom we cannot see because of the great distance between us."

[River]

Originally posted by Asha'man
Yes, I have a few.

As an astronomer, your astronomy points really suck.



Ya, easy for you to say. Do you know that an ounce worth of knowledge takes years to amass? When I took my first botany class in Junior high...I was surprised to see female and male structures ( pairs of plants as the Qur'an states) in plants.....ofcourse I would laugh it off now. Similarly when scientists learn something new ...they often forget the long process that took to uncover it (And the wealth of info it took to unravel the basics)....

[River]

And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.[ 21:33]


“By the sky full of paths and orbits.”

[The Quran, 51:7]

[pariah]

ummm...the sun doesnt orbit anything. and when it says sun and moon, it sounds to me like they are saying they both orbit the same thing. as in, they both orbit the earth.

which is of course, wrong

[River]

Originally posted by pariahSS
ummm...the sun doesnt orbit anything. and when it says sun and moon, it sounds to me like they are saying they both orbit the same thing. as in, they both orbit the earth.

which is of course, wrong


Ya, and I bet you believe the whole world revolves around you. You have just proved to the Forum, your intellectual abyss. Congratulations. This is what your effort earned you.




1) Stars in the disk are on nearly CIRCULAR ORBITS about the center of our galaxy.
The disk of our galaxy is flattened by rotation (just as the planet Saturn is flattened, and protostellar disks are flattened.) Individual stars in the disk are on nearly circular orbits in the plane of the disk, all revolving in the same direction around the center of our galaxy. (By contrast, stars in the halo are on elongated orbits, at random orientations, some traveling clockwise, and others counterclockwise.)
The Sun, for instance, a fairly typical disk star, is ORBITING with a speed
v = 220 km/sec = 0.000225 parsecs/year.
The radius of the Sun's orbit around the galactic center is
a = 8000 parsecs.
The circumference of the SUN'S ORBIT is then
2 pi a = 50,300 parsecs.
The orbital period of the Sun thus turns out to be
P = 2 pi a / v = (50,300)/(0.000225) = 220,000,000 years.

It takes the sun 220 million years to circle once around the center of our galaxy. During the 4.6 billion years that the Sun has been in existence, it has gone around the center just over 20 times.

[River]

Originally posted by pariahSS
........sounds to me like they are saying they both orbit the same thing. as in, they both orbit the earth.

which is of course, wrong

-PariahSS


well it sounds to me that you are not even aware of basics of astronomy ....The Sun has an Orbit!!!! This is what your senseless nitpicking has caused you....ABSOLUTE shame and embarrassment in front of all.

[Kat_Somm_Faen]

A non-answer....

Seriously when does it stop?

Does sun set in a pool of murky water? Where does semen come from? Did Solomon talk to the ants? Where does Allah reside?

Is moon as same as a star?

He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other ...
And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps ... (67:3,5)
And He completed them seven heavens in two days
and inspired in each heaven its command;
and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps,
and rendered it guarded... (41:12)

We have indeed adorned the lower heaven with the beauty of the stars. (37:6)

Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other,
and made the moon a light in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp? (71:15-16)


Clearly the Quran speaks of the Moon as being a lamp ie. having a light source of its own. Blatantly false.


And heck Allah created the seven heavens in TWO days apparently.

More?

[River]

Kat

Every answer that doesnt appeal to you is instantly a " non-answer". .....


chorus (3x) : Non Answer

[River]

Originally posted by Kat_Somm_Faen


Is moon as same as a star?




no. what are you like slow in the head or sumthin.

[Kat_Somm_Faen]

Well for example - THAT was a non-answer.

River, you just avoid serious discussion of stuff going in depth about simbolism and translation.

Some stuff is really clear. And people ask you some very clear question - Like Pariah did - and he got a answer like this


"Ya, and I bet you believe the whole world revolves around you. You have just proved to the Forum, your intellectual abyss. Congratulations. This is what your effort earned you. "

Honestly, is that an aswer or a simple ad hominem?

At least this asnwer about Suns orbit about the Galactic center is answering a posted question compared to simply avoiding an answer.

...

Edit: at least I use my previous post to make an aswer and not make a completely new one to post something like this:

"no. what are you like slow in the head or sumthin."

Thank you very much for this shining example of your type of "answer"

As you can read the Qoran specifically compares both the STARS and the MOON to lamps ie. light sources - Moon has no internal light source and simply reflects Suns light. Please comment on that!

[River]

-Kat


this was the answer I provided to Pariah. And it was posted revealing the Sun's orbit. You have selective attention.

1) Stars in the disk are on nearly CIRCULAR ORBITS about the center of our galaxy.
The disk of our galaxy is flattened by rotation (just as the planet Saturn is flattened, and protostellar disks are flattened.) Individual stars in the disk are on nearly circular orbits in the plane of the disk, all revolving in the same direction around the center of our galaxy. (By contrast, stars in the halo are on elongated orbits, at random orientations, some traveling clockwise, and others counterclockwise.)
The Sun, for instance, a fairly typical disk star, is ORBITING with a speed
v = 220 km/sec = 0.000225 parsecs/year.
The radius of the Sun's orbit around the galactic center is
a = 8000 parsecs.
The circumference of the SUN'S ORBIT is then
2 pi a = 50,300 parsecs.
The orbital period of the Sun thus turns out to be
P = 2 pi a / v = (50,300)/(0.000225) = 220,000,000 years.

It takes the sun 220 million years to circle once around the center of our galaxy. During the 4.6 billion years that the Sun has been in existence, it has gone around the center just over 20 times

[Kat_Somm_Faen]

And another thing - the Moon is here described as being "in the midst" of lamps that Allah has put into the lower heavens...

How does one find moon iin the mids of other stars? This would clearly mean that the Moon and the stars are to be found in the lower heavens together which they are clearly NOT.

...

Edit:

Is Moon a light source?

[River]

-Kat

If you were serious about discussion ( rather than taking a list directly of a polemical antIslamic site)....I would address you in all honesty. However, what's the point ...you dont even understand literal/metaphorical linguistic conventions.....You are simply trying to attack me , personally.

[River]

(i) Creation of the Universe



The formation of the universe is described in the Quran in the following verse:



“He is the Originator of the heavens and

the earth.” (6:101)



The information given in the Quran is in full agreement with the findings of modern science. The conclusion that astrophysics has reached today is that the entire universe was created as a result of great explosion that occurred in no time. This event, known as “The Big Bang” proved that the entire universe was created from nothingness as a result of the explosion of a single point. Modern scientists agree that the Big Bang is the only rational and plausible explanation of the beginning and how the universe came into being. Before the Big Bang, there was no such thing as matter. So, we come to the conclusion that matter, time, and energy were created and didn’t exist since infinite.



“Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke,

and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both

of you, willingly or not. They said: We come,

obedient.” (The Quran, 41:11)





Didn’t the Quran say that the Heaven was smoke before its creation? Modern science has every reason to maintain that the universe was formed from a gaseous mass principally composed of hydrogen and a certain amount of helium that was slowly rotating. We, therefore, see no contradiction in the Quranic use of the Arabic word “dukhan” (translated smoke) and a modern interpretation of that word as “a gaseous mass with fine particles” when speaking of the formation of the universe.



“Have they not who disbelieve seen that the heavens and earth were joined together (as one piece), then We parted them.” (21:30)





The Quran describes the phenomenon of the creation of the universe by using two specific words:



“rataq” translated as: mixed in each ; blended.



“fataqa” is the verb in Arabic and implies that something comes into being by tearing apart or destroying the structure of “rataq”.





As the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke’, we conclude that the earth and the heavens were once a connected entity. Then out of this homogenous ‘smoke’, they evolved into different forms and separated from each other.



Hence, the verse reveals that the heavens and earth at the beginning were joined together, and that subsequently they were separated. Recent advance-ments in astronomy especially the Big Bang theory of the creation of the universe corroborate with this statement in the Quran. The Big Bang theory holds that about 20,000,000,000 (twenty billion) years ago the universe began with an explosive expansion of a single extremely condensed state of matter. This is what the Quran states in this verse: “the heavens and earth were joined together”. The Noble prize for Science in 1977 was awarded for this discovery.



These facts, only recently discovered by modern science, were disclosed in the Quran 1,400 years ago.


http://www.cometoislam.com/IslamandScience.htm

[Kat_Somm_Faen]

My friend :)

Taking anything from anything does not make it false. We had that discussion. I am no mood to learn Arabic just so that I can read the Quran. I would like to learn it as a language but again.
And I asked you nicely before - can we all just disregard your sources as 'Islamic" and say they are therefore not rellevant? Please attack the translation or the citations themselves. Are they relevant an true or just a figment of imagination some anti-islamic person?

Please post your own desription and translation that you deem authoritative on the passages dealing with the setting place of the Sun, or the placement of the stars.

Anything can be taken "literal/metaphorical linguistic conventions".

That way anything is possible. And Bible is true and Torah is true and Latter Day Saints is true and Star Trek is true and on and on.

[Kat_Somm_Faen]

Smoke does not equal gas - plain and simple.

Smoke = small particles of carbon and other impurities randomly distributed in a gaseous medium ie. a particle.

Gas is on of the four states of matter and not smoke.

[River]

-Kat

I apologise if I was harsh earlier. But you must understand , I believe the Qur'an is the Word of G-d and I believe it is Relevent especially in the times we live in. I am only posting materials that were well translated and commented on by scholars. If you want to dismiss the works of scholars before you. By all means do so. But you must realize not everyone here hates what I am posting. Some people here are interested in what I have to say ( they are here listening, but hidden)...The people who hate what I say , tend to be rather vocal about it...making it appear as if my words have no meaning.....its a clever , crafty illusion.


Peace

River

[River]

Originally posted by Kat_Somm_Faen
Smoke does not equal gas - plain and simple.

Smoke = small particles of carbon and other impurities randomly distributed in a gaseous medium ie. a particle.

Gas is on of the four states of matter and not smoke.

I am sorry I posted two translations here. The earlier one citing " gas" and the latter " smoke". I believe the arabic " dukhan"=smoke was the correct diction.

[River]

-Kat

Why do you think I hesitated when one asked for clarification of this particular verse?

Was it because I am deceitful? Honestly , it has to do with a problem ( a couple of problems) that commentators have been wrestling with for centuries.

The problem is that the series of verses in question exhibit three variables. As a Muslim, I am taught to believe in both reasoning and faith. Not one over the other. Thus when I go about trying to solve a problem , I must know the context . I can not analyze isolated verses ( verses in a vacuum).

These are the 3 variables:

X: The Identity of Prophet Dhul-Qurnain

Y: The Identity of Yajuj and Majuj

Z: " The sun sets in muddy pond or springs".


Lets begin with Variable X. Who is Prophet Dhul-Qurnain? He is meantioned as a powerful Prophet who made Iron gates ( merged with Alloy) to seal the Tribes of Yajuj and Majuj ( since they were causing a mess). Lets see what commentators have suggested as the Identity of this Prophet. Dhul- Qurnain's name literally translates to "2 horned one". Thus it reverberates with the Biblical concept of " 2 horned one" in Revelations. This name has also been a suffix for many Yemeni Kings. However, there has been a huge debate concerning whether Prophet Dhul-Qurnain is in actuality Alexander the Great. Alexander ( also Iskander ) has been related to the building of a huge gate in Persian folklore, and there are several documents appearing to confirm Alexander the Great as the Prophet Dhul-Qurnain. Now the problem is ? Wasnt' Alexander an idolater? Some have debated that there is a difference between the fictional Alexander the Great and the Historical Alexander the Great and that the historical Alexander the Great was a submitter and all his victories was due to his asking of G-d's will. Others have said that it was Cyrus the great king of Iran, and regarded as savior by some Jews at the time. Cyrus is known as Darius of the Bible. Still others continue to believe that he was a Yemenite king. This topic might still be debated further. Some say that this " Alexander" or Ishkander ( i.e Kandahar of Afghanistan is named after Alexander the Great) is really a Prophet by the name of Alexander roughly around the same time as Prophet Abraham ( Ibrahim) pbuh. Heck, he might be Darius, the Persian Prophet. How can we trace his identity ? Perhaps we can find clues to his identity from his aquaintances. Based on Extra-Quranic texts , Prophet Khidr was the cook of Dhul-Qurnain. Other sources say that he was a soldier in Dhul-Qurnain's army and unintentionally founded the "water of life" which Dhul-Qurnain was trying to find all his life. Now, there exists another problem . Who is Prophet Khidr? He is mentioned once in the Quran as the Servant of Allah that guided Moses . He is also believed to be the initiator, " murshid " of saints. Other sources connect him with Prophet Enoch ( Idrees), who was one of the only Prophets to ascend to G-d. Biblical sources state that Khidr is St.George or perhaps the ArchAngel Metatron. And if you want to go even further Prophet Khidr is usually mentioned as the character " Hermes" in mythology and the Green man of Europe as well as "the wandering Jew".

Variable Y: Who are the Yajuj and Majuj? Who are the lost tribes of Gog and Magog? They have been tied to Scythians an advanced tribe of people skilled with metallurgy and some how mysteriously vanished from the archaelogical record. Other say they were a group of primitive neandertals that escaped extinction ( for more on this study the field cryptozoology). They have also been called the Tartars and Sclavonians. This Caucasias theory is advanced because the word Caucasius literally means "Fort of Gog" after the story of Alexander the Great and the Wall. Others have theories that they might be the chinese based on some enigmatic verse that says "shaded with their eyes" and also related to Great Wall of China. There's one theory that advances that the Gog and Magog are the Hashemite Kingdom. Weak support from Genesis cites Gog and Magog as the sons of Japheth and the Origininators of the European race. The Gog and Magog have also been used as an Identification for the Mongolians by some and the word Magog has been tied to the Mughal of India. The Yajuj and Majuj have also been connected to the Biblical Nephilim and Amalakites as well as america and EU..hmmmm...your guess is as good as mine.-River

Now lets look at Variable Z:

"
He [Dhu’l-Qarnayn] followed, until he reached the setting of the sun. He found it set in a spring of murky water. (18:85-6)

Does it not imply that the earth is flat and be considered a scientific mistake?

Answer: The problem seems to have arisen due to an erroneous translation of the said verses. A correct translation is:
He [Dhu’l-Qarnayn] made ready his resources, until he reached the place where the sun sets. He found it as if it was setting in a spring of murky water. (18:85-6)

The setting of the sun in murky waters is a figurative portrayal. When one is standing on the shores where the sun sets, the scene is very much like what the verse says. It seems as if the sun is setting in murky waters. The style adopted by the Qur’an indicates that Dhu’l-Qarnayn had conquered all the known parts of the West at that time. He had reached the end of the known land territory and now only the expanse of water remained beyond it. It must be appreciated that the language of the Qur’an is highly literary and it often employs figurative styles and constructions to convey its meanings. If one does not have a literary taste, he fails to grasp the delicacy and elegance of such
styles. "http://www.renaissance.com.pk/novquer2y1.html


Qu'ran definitely has some sort of metaphorical component or spin-off groups such as Bahaii and Sikh beliefs couldnt have formed , since they were derived mainly of the metaphorical side of Islam. Well anyways....

This should have been pretty obvious from the other Quranic verse that said that the Day merged into the night.... ( without taking exceptions to consideration, since everything has exceptions). There is no talk about the sun merging into a body of water. We tend to forget that the arabs of 1400 years ago were not primitive . They were not cavemen. They had navigation systems and ways of following the stars. Islam relies heavily on mathematics. We have 5 appointed prayers a day . We utilise the lunar calendar . And have compasses to map out the Qibla ( direction) of Mecca. The arabs were never that dumb that they would think the sun would melt into the water. uhmmm. And if the Prophet said something that dumb...Islam would have been rejected point blank. Well to show you how sophisticated
the Quran is take a look at the following verse:


[THE SUN WILL EXTINGUISH AFTER A CERTAIN PERIOD]

"And the Sun Runs its course For a period determined For it;
that is The decree of (Him) The exalted in Might, The All-Knowing."
[AI-Qur'an 36:38]*

[Kat_Somm_Faen]

OK glad we could talk about that - but let us continue.

“He is the Originator of the heavens and

the earth.” (6:101)

Do you really have to go through such a long and involved process to connect that one verse with the Big Bang? Big Bang is an obserational truism in the sense that Hubble first observed that everything was moving away from everything else ( some stuff was actually coming closer together too ). And to say that “He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth.” (6:101) "is in full agreement with the findings of modern science"
is a very big stretch indeed. This is a single sentence that says that there is an Originator of Universe - how is the modern science in full agreement of Universe being originated by Allah?

Smoke reference is answered - gas is not smoke.

Also, as stars and earth and other structures were joined - it is another false statement which can be very losely connected to a severely watered down version of cosmology.
Stars and "earths" and toher heavenly bodies were not "blended" nor they were together nor they could be separated.

Earth is a composite of heavy elements being created by the stars own internal fusion processes. All heavy element being necessary for the rest of the structure of the Earth were created in stars so they can be "blended" before the creation of stars since they were never present there. There is nothing to be blended or separated to and from.

"we conclude that the earth and the heavens were once a connected entity."

Not true. Earth and heavens were nover connected in the sense the Quran would like us to believe is true. Stars and light elements predate the creation of heavy elements. So there is nothing to be blended or separated.

[Coragyps]

"And the Sun Runs its course For a period determined For it;
That sounds very like it's saying :" crosses the sky each day, starting at sunrise and ending at sunset." It scarcely even mentions "eventually turn off the Main Sequence, swell to a red giant, and blow off its outer layers, leaving behind a white dwarf which will quit glowing in another ten billion years."

I couldn't agree more, River, that the Qur'an is not a science book. Neither is it an accurate prophecy book - it only yields these startling revelations under the same exact sort of text-twisting that your fundy Christian counterparts apply to the Bible.

[Kat_Somm_Faen]

Well the long reference to the possible sources of "the horned one" does not change the point of the said verse. The point is a person came up to the end of the world ( again I suppose a methapor ) and discovored the Sun ( as if ) setting in water. Who cares of who it was?

The last reference of style and translation just barely begins to form an answer. I all honesty, you are simply dealing with semantics. What does "as if setting in a pool of murky water" mean? That is all you offer as an explanation. I feel, personaly that is lacking... a lot. Is word of G-d ( I really dont undestand this Jewish tradition of not mentioning Adonai as an Islamic concept )a literal or a metaphorical word? If you consider "end of the world" why did not the Dhul-Qurnain travel to the last galaxy of the heavens? Why is the sea shore considered the end of the world when we today know thet the end of the world is indeed billions of LY away?

As far as Yajuj and Majuj, wasnt Dhul-Qurnain supposed to make a gate of Iron to contain them and actually when he was there he found that the Sun never set on them an they were constantly burned by the Sun with no relief? What does that mean?


How does on make a definite decision of the said distinction between the verses of the Quran? What is your guide in determining what is metaphorical and a question of style and what is the literal meaning? Can the requirement of 5 daily prayers be considered only metaphorical? Why not?

For the sun running a course determined. I can only say that one can connect that with the lifespan of the Sun by the loosest of analogies. This seems to reference its daily course on the sky and not the lifespan of a star. And "runs it course" - how do you connect this to extinction of the Sun? Truly, the Sun will not be extinguished but will rather go off in a collosal BOOOOOOOOOOOOOM to which we all fail to understand the power an lack the number of OOOOs to describe. I hardly call a Supernova an extinction event rather an explosion of even greater "fire"! And BTW I though there are many more stages to that and after all is dont the Sun ( as well as any black hole ) will not be extinguished but rather the photons can not escape the gravity pull. Nothing is really extinguished but rather it becomes invisible due to the infinite potential well that the photons can not traverse.

[pariah]

Originally posted by River
Ya, and I bet you believe the whole world revolves around you. You have just proved to the Forum, your intellectual abyss. Congratulations. This is what your effort earned you.



Try rereading my post. The point was that the it implies that both the sun and the moon orbit the earth. THAT IS WRONG. That was my point.

Whatever. Both of these theads are ridiculous.

[pariah]

Originally posted by River
no. what are you like slow in the head or sumthin.

ad hominem.

no thx.

[River]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kat_Somm_Faen
[B]Well the long reference to the possible sources of "the horned one" does not change the point of the said verse. The point is a person came up to the end of the world ( again I suppose a methapor ) and discovored the Sun ( as if ) setting in water. Who cares of who it was?

The last reference of style and translation just barely begins to form an answer. I all honesty, you are simply dealing with semantics. What does "as if setting in a pool of murky water" mean? That is all you offer as an explanation. I feel, personaly that is lacking... a lot. Is word of G-d ( I really dont undestand this Jewish tradition of not mentioning Adonai as an Islamic concept )a literal or a metaphorical word? If you consider "end of the world" why did not the Dhul-Qurnain travel to the last galaxy of the heavens? Why is the sea shore considered the end of the wolrd when we today know thet the endo fo the wolrd is inded billion of LY away?

As far as Yajuj and Majuj, wasnt Dhul-Qurnain supposed to make a gate of Iron to contain them and actually when he was there he found that the Sun never set on them an they were constantly burned by the Sun with no relief? What does that mean?



------River

well " Darius (possibly)" was extending his empire. I don't think he would have been able to travel to the galaxies....since there are earthly parameters. Thus he finished building his empire...and he was done and looked out into the distance/horizen (" muddy springs")


The Quran is the Literal Word of G-d, A heavenly Template transcribed by Gabriel. It is not inspired and is not a collection of books....It is derived from one Source ( G-d). We believe the Arabic Quran is the exact speech of G-d paralleling the Heavenly Template or Al-Furqan. However, the Qur'an has both literal and allegorical meanings . In fact some scholars say that there are as many as 7 layers of meaning of the Quran ( including, Esoteric, Literal, Metaphorical, Metaphysical......etc) .


The other verse that refers to them not having shade from the Sun has been construed (by some scholars ).....indicating that Gog and Magog were either from China or Mongolia....but still this is speculation.

[Kat_Somm_Faen]

Oh but Pariah you seem to fail grasping the analogy and the mataphor used! Where everyone else sees a reference to the Sun orbiting Earth, Moon being a light source or Sun setting in murky water - they should be seeing metaphores. You are just beyond help Pariah! :rolleyes:

:boohoo:

[Lobstrosity]

Originally posted by River
Well the stars that " fall" could be poetic. I mean the Qur'an is a Scripture that lies somewhere between poetry and prose.