POA in Texas- advice requested

[athee]

I live in Houston, and supposedly the state gov't just passed a law (I think it went through aand was signed) making it mandatory to say the POA, unless the parent sends a note saying otherwise. :mad: Now, as I understand, the Supreme court already ruled on this "requirement" in 319 U.S. 624 - 1943.

Summarizing: I believe that this says that kids don't have to say jack squat if they don't want to. I am no legal expert, but isn't the new texas law contradicting this. They are in essence asking the parents to document that they give the kid the freedom to not say the POA, as if the kid did not have the freedom given to him in the first place by the Supreme Court.

I'm not planning to sue or anything, but I don't want my kid spouting something he doesn't even truly understand (age 5).

I guess they can refuse him entry or something. If they insist on a written request for a waiver, and plan to make things difficult, I was planning to do it on toilet paper (maybe with some snot ;) ) They didn't say what it was to be written on.

any comments? I understand there was another state that did this too (can't remember the name though). What have you all done to get around this? I guess I can go spouting the Court ruling, but I'm probably dealing with idiots who just do what they're told and have zero flexibility.

:banghead:

[lisarea]

Might've been Colorado. I haven't paid much attention to it for general blood pressure reasons, but there is some kind of mandatory pledge thang starting with the upcoming school year.

I don't know anything about parents signing waivers, but regardless, I'm not going to do it. My son is starting his senior year in HS, so the only question is whether he should remain sitting, stand up and face away from the flag, or invent some lascivious "flag dance" or what.

He told me he doubts that his teachers are even going to comply, but I do kind of hope they do, just to see what happens. Heh heh.

[beejay]

Originally posted by athee

I understand there was another state that did this too (can't remember the name though). What have you all done to get around this:banghead:

It was Pennsylvania where the PoA law was held unconstitutional.

Pennsylvania Pledge law unconstitutional (http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/6311475.htm)

The Supreme Court case said manatory pledges are unconstitutional, so a number of states have passed laws (not Indiana, so I don't have an answer to "what have you done?") to allow some sort of opt-out as a way around this.

In some states (Florida?) the ACLU has urged the state not to enforce this law until the Pennsylvania law works it way through the courts.

What does your 5-year-old want to do? You can't stop the pledge (unless you want to sue, a la Newdow), so are you expecting him to assert his rights not to say it?

My son enters high school this fall. I think I'm going to give him a laminated card to the effect "I believe my son loses none of his rights guaranteed to him by the Constitution by entering the school, so you need not ask me about any such rights he chooses to assert." (I just made that up....clearly some polishing is in order.)

[Stephen Maturin]

Yeah, that new Texas law is a big, honking, star-spangled mess. Until recently, the applicable statute looked like this:

§ 25.082. School Day

* * *

(b) A school district may provide for a period of silence at the beginning of the first class of each school day during which a student may reflect or meditate.

Well, not anymore, it doesn't. Effective 9/1/03, the new law provides:

Section 25.082, Education Code, is amended by amending Subsection (b) and adding Subsections (c) and (d) to read as follows:

(b) The board of trustees of each school district shall require students, once during each school day at each school in the district, to recite:

(1) the pledge of allegiance to the United States flag in accordance with 4 U.S.C. Section 4, and its subsequent amendments; and

(2) the pledge of allegiance to the state flag in accordance with Subchapter C, Chapter 3100, Government Code.

(c) On written request from a student's parent or guardian, a school district shall excuse the student from reciting a pledge of allegiance under Subsection (b).

(d) The board of trustees of each school district shall provide for the observance of one minute of silence at each school in the district following the recitation of the pledges of allegiance to the United States and Texas flags under Subsection (b). During the one-minute period, each student may, as the student chooses, reflect, pray, or meditate, or engage in any other silent activity that is not likely to interfere with or distract another student. Each teacher or other school employee in charge of students during that period shall ensure that each of those students remains silent and does not act in a manner that is likely to interfere with or distract another student.

The new law starts out by making it compulsory to recite both the federal and state* (!!) Pledges. As you correctly pointed out, though, a student can get out of reciting either or both "on written request" of a parent. Submitting such a request is probably the surest way to go if you don't want your child doing this stuff. Be sure to request that he be excused from reciting the federal pledge AND the Texas pledge.

I have my doubts about this particular opt-out scheme being constitutional. As beejay mentioned, a federal judge recently ruled that a substantially similar law in Pennsylvania violated student's First Amendment rights. (You can find a discussion of that case here (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58152).) The ruling looks mighty solid to me, but it's just a district court case and thus carries no determinative weight in Texas. It'll be awhile before the Supreme Court gets around to reviewing this new wave of coercive but technically not "mandatory" pledge laws. In the meantime, we may well see lower court cases going both ways.

The new law is troublesome in other ways, too. Check out how the legislature made the moment of silence mandatory where it used to be permissive and stuffed the word "pray" right in the middle of that longassed Subsection (d). What, they thought no one would notice? :banghead:

* Pledging allegiance to a state flag sounds more than a little stupid in this day and age, but hey, at least Texas managed to leave God out of the mix: "Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one and indivisible."

[joedad]

Silly is as silly does (http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/flagpledge.html)In 1933 the legislature passed a law establishing rules for the proper display of the flag and providing for a pledge to the flag: "Honor the Texas Flag of 1836; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one and indivisible." The pledge erroneously referred to the 1836 national flag, known as David G. Burnet's flag, instead of the Lone Star Flag. Senator Searcy Bracewell introduced a bill to correct this error in 1951, but the legislature did not delete the words "of 1836" until 1965.As a resident of Pennsylvania, I was glad to see our state law ruled unconstitutional and coercive, even though my kids have graduated. You've got to remember that while Texas has DeLay, we have Santorum.

[athee]

Originally posted by beejay


What does your 5-year-old want to do? You can't stop the pledge (unless you want to sue, a la Newdow), so are you expecting him to assert his rights not to say it?

My son enters high school this fall. I think I'm going to give him a laminated card to the effect "I believe my son loses none of his rights guaranteed to him by the Constitution by entering the school, so you need not ask me about any such rights he chooses to assert." (I just made that up....clearly some polishing is in order.)


My 5 year old is too young to understand what he is saying. Actually, now that I think about it, I can explain it to him now, and he would get it (boy he is growing up fast). The problem is that the average 5 year old doesn't have a parent that would go through the trouble to explain to a child what the POA really is. But I guess that is the point. It is just like organized religion, hook 'em while they are young so it is so engrained by the time they are of age that they don't question anything. Flocks of sheep are the result.

I am proud of the way my son has turned out (so far). He questions everything, but there are limits. Clearly at his age he has no deep sense of philosophy. If he is told to say something, he'll say it. Think about it .. children are told to obey authority figures, and a teacher is one. He's not a "rock the boat type" of guy, but once he understands something to be the truth, he is firm in his stance. For example, on his own, he refuted the existence of Santa. He told a girl in his class that he was pretend (I had never mentioned the word Santa to him). If you say Santa is real, he'll think you're joking.

Well, it looks like it is time for a sit down talk.

Your laminated card is a neat idea, but that would work for an older kid. Mine's going in 1st grade, so it is a bit much for him.

[Belle]

Oh crap! Two of my 3 kiddos are in public school here in Texas. Can I steal your toilet paper idea?

[Vylo]

I wish I was back in high school there, I would be suspended sooo fast lol.

[athee]

Originally posted by Belle
Oh crap! Two of my 3 kiddos are in public school here in Texas. Can I steal your toilet paper idea?

No problem .... I assume you meant to write what you did: "Oh crap! ..... Can I steal your toilet paper idea?"


:D


actually my wife just wants me to give them a note and be done with it. That's too easy, but I'm not sure what I'll ultimately do.

[Nocturn]

I am not one bit surprised, I just moved out of houston into Austin. I am just disgusted to think of what is going to happen between now and the time I have kids and send them into public school. I'm under 20 now, so it should be awhile, lord help us if bush is reelected.

[Godless Dave]

Originally posted by athee
actually my wife just wants me to give them a note and be done with it.
I suggest giving them a note, but include in your note a statement that it is illegal for them to require parental permission.

[DigitalChicken]

Don't take it out on your local school system. They probably would rather have it be a local decision and not imposed upon them by the state.

I found this:
Trustees lukewarm on pledge law (http://www.dallasnews.com/localnews/city/richardson/stories/080703dnricpledge.a2a19.html)

DC

[athee]

well we had a student orientation today and I talked to the teacher about the new law. She was actually very reasonable and we just have a verbal understanding between us. So ... I don't have to send the administration any nasty papers to assert my child's rights.

Looks like a conflict is avoided for now, but I wonder when the ACLU is going to step in down here in TX and help set things right.

[Joyous]

Originally posted by athee

I guess they can refuse him entry or something. If they insist on a written request for a waiver, and plan to make things difficult, I was planning to do it on toilet paper (maybe with some snot ;) ) They didn't say what it was to be written on.

[/B]

Please. No. Send the snot-encrusted toilet paper to the legislature, if you must. They passed the law; teachers are just required to follow it. I hate doing it, but I can lose my license to teach if I don't. It may be that your child's teacher is in the same position: forced to follow a law that he/she doesn't agree with. I don't see how it can be beneficial to anyone to start off a school/home relationship with the assumption that the school will be "tacky" about the permission waiver.

[athee]

you're right .... after I cooled down I realized that it would get things off on the wrong foot. As noted above, I did work something out, but still, this "us" and "them" policy of our government makes no sense (unless you're "them")

Fortunately my boy has what seems to be a good teacher.

How are you handling the new law, or do you even have a case to handle? Would you take the same approach as our teacher (quiet-like and on the side), or would you ask for the proper documentation to cover yourself?

AAAHHH ... the more I write about this, the more it pisses me off.
:banghead:
:banghead:
:mad:

[Autonemesis]

Originally posted by Vylo
I wish I was back in high school there, I would be suspended sooo fast lol.

Me too. Tarot spread. Crowley deck, 'natch. ;)

[beejay]

Originally posted by athee
I wonder when the ACLU is going to step in down here in TX and help set things right.

They need a plaintiff. And normally the ACLU doesn't go looking for plaintiffs, they wait for them to come to them.

The ACLU said it has no plans to bring Texas to court over the legislation_yet. "The moment a teacher, student or a parent says their rights have been infringed, we will step up," Harrell said.

Will Harrell is executive director of the Texas ACLU.



News story on new Texas law on PoA, In God We Trust, etc. (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/6562433.htm)

[niggle]

Originally posted by Joyous
I hate doing it, but I can lose my license to teach if I don't. It may be that your child's teacher is in the same position: forced to follow a law that he/she doesn't agree with.

Whoa whoa whoa! :confused:

Don't YOU still have constitutional rights to opt out if you so choose? If the kid can't be required to say the Pledge, then how can the teacher?

[DigitalChicken]

Originally posted by niggle
Don't YOU still have constitutional rights to opt out if you so choose? If the kid can't be required to say the Pledge, then how can the teacher?

Yes you can opt out. However, it requires written permission. I am not sure if teachers can opt out leading it.

DC

[beejay]

Originally posted by niggle
If the kid can't be required to say the Pledge, then how can the teacher?

The lack of an opt-out provision for teachers is one reason the Colorado law has been put on hold by a federal judge.

Similar results may be possible in Texas if there were a teacher willing to sue...

[crazyfingers]

Just for reference, here is the Supreme Court decison of 1943 that said that one can not be required to say the pledge.

WEST VIRGINIA STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION v. BARNETTE, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624)

[lisarea]

Originally posted by beejay
The lack of an opt-out provision for teachers is one reason the Colorado law has been put on hold by a federal judge.


Teachers can opt out in Colorado, but only if they claim a religious exemption.

(BTW, the hold only applies to some counties.)