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scigirl
August 5, 2003, 08:45 PM
This post is designed to refute an anti-gay website that senor posted earlier: http://208.55.167.140/articles/hsmyths.htm

My first criticism: This web site comes from a religious tract titled: "Homosexuality: Are Same Sex Relationships A Christian Option?" by Bobby Dockery. He cites lots of statistics, but there is no good bibliography, so no way to validate any of his claims, or make sure they were not taken out of context.

Ok let’s get to the meat of the article: I reworded his statements to reflect his beliefs, since leaving them as is was confusing and made it look like he was pro-gay.

1. "Ten percent of the population is (not) homosexual."

My first reaction is, so what? Who cares if it’s 0.02% or 80% - discriminating against someone based on their sexual orientation is wrong no matter how many people are gay, right? But let’s examine his data.
Bobby Dockery:
The truth is that the number of homosexuals is much smaller than their power and influence would indicate…A 1989 study in Science magazine found that 1.6-2 % of the male population had engaged in homosexual activity in the previous 12 months. (Protestants Relax Church Stance About Homosexual Relationships, Morning News, Springdale, AR, Apr. 6, 1991)
First, I wonder, why he quoted a newspaper review of the article from Science, rather than the original article. It makes me think he didn’t read it. Here’s the abstract:
Prevalence and patterns of same-gender sexual contact among men. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2911744&dopt=Abstract)
From Pubmed:
The prevalence and patterns of same-gender sexual contact among men are key components of models of the spread of HIV infection and AIDS in the U.S. population. Previous estimates by Kinsey et al. from data collected between 1938 and 1948 have been widely criticized for inadequacies of sample design. New lower-bound estimates of prevalence developed from data from a national sample survey conducted in 1970 indicate that minimums of 20.3 percent of adult men in the United States in 1970 had sexual contact to orgasm with another man at some time in life; 6.7 percent had such contact after age 19; and between 1.6 and 2.0 percent had such contact within the previous year. Although these estimates incorporate adjustments for missing data, the likelihood of underreporting suggests that these estimates might be lower bounds on the prevalence of same-gender sex among men. Two sets of alternative estimates are derived to assess the sensitivity of these estimates to the assumptions made in imputing values to missing data. Detailed estimates are presented by frequency of contact, age, education, and marital status; and supporting estimates are derived from a 1988 national survey. Data from both the 1970 and 1988 surveys indicate that never-married men are more likely than other men to have had same-gender sexual contacts within the last year. The 1970 survey also indicates, however, that approximately half the men estimated to have such contacts are found among the more numerous population of currently or previously married men.
So while Mr. Dockery is correct in stating that the Kinsey data is probably inaccurate, he fails to point out that the scientists think the data under-reports the lower-bound estimates of homosexual activity, not over-reports. See the bolded statement in the abstract above. I have to get this article by physically walking to the library, since it’s from 1989, but I will read it and see what the Science authors estimate the current homosexual rates to be.

I think that what Mr. Dockery wants to do is very interesting – he wants to re-define homosexuals as those people who have had homosexual sex within the last year. However, I doubt he defines heterosexual in the same fashion. Is an engaged Christian virgin NOT a heterosexual then, because she hasn’t had sex yet? If he wants to re-define sexuality in this manner, he needs to be consistent, since my guess is that the rates of both homosexuality and heterosexuality will go down by the same rate if you exclude all people who haven’t had sex within the last year. And you will have this new category of people as “asexual” or “non-sexual.” In any case, when we are talking about the rights of gays to get married, it seems to me that their previous sexual activity is not as relevant as their current desire to be with someone of the same gender. So in that case, I think it’s more valid to use the desire numbers, which do appear to be somewhere between 10 and 20 percent.

Another point that I noticed from these statistics which managed to escape Mr. Dockery’s analysis: If homosexuals are as sexually active as he claims later, why is there such a discrepancy between the percent of men and women who have had homosexual desires, and the percent of men and women who have actually had homosexual sex? Mr. Dockery makes it sound like as soon as a guy “chooses” to be gay, he immediately runs out and sleeps with 500 men. Well not according to this data – there are more people who wish to have homosexual sex than are actually having it.

And like I stated earlier, I think the previous 4 or 5 paragraphs of my argument are irrelevant to this discussion anyway. Who cares if it’s 2% or 10%? It’s still wrong to discriminate based on someone’s sexual orientation.

2. "Homosexuals (do not) have stable, loving families just like heterosexuals."
Bobby Dockery:
The reality: A 1981 study showed that only 2% of homosexuals have relationships that are even semi-stable (which for the purposes of the study was defined as having fewer than 10 lifetime partners!) The average homosexual has 500 (mostly anonymous) lifetime partners. Thirty percent of homosexuals will have more than 1000 sexual partners in their lifetime.
He provides no references for these statistics. So I did my own research – looking at 1981 with the words “homosexual” and “partner,” and a bunch of other words. I did not find a single article that validates his statistics. However, I did find an article that talks about number of partners in different groups of gay men in Norway.
Prevalence and trends in homosexual behaviour in Norway. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9106944&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed:
The three main objectives of this study were to estimate the proportion of the Norwegian population with experience of homosexual behaviour, to study the degree of change in sexual practices among homosexual men during a 5-year period and to study the degree of change in sexual practices reported by HIV positive homosexual men from before to after awareness of HIV-positivity. The data comes from two questionnaire surveys (in 1987 and 1992) of sexual behaviour in the general population of Norway and a questionnaire study of sexual behaviour before and after awareness of HIV-positivity among HIV-positive homosexual men taking part in a cohort study starting in 1988 (the Oslo HIV cohort study). Estimation of the proportion of subjects with homosexual experience was made as well as a trend analysis of the number of male sexual partners per year, number of intercourses per month, condom use and anal sex. Among men aged 18 to 60 from the general population, 3.8% reported homosexual practice during lifetime and 1.2% during the past 3 years. Among women, the same percentages were 3.1 and 1.0. In the surveys, the number of male partners per year decreased significantly for men with current homosexual experience from a yearly median of 1.0 in 1987 to 0.3 in 1992 (p = 0.02). Among HIV-positives, the number of male partners decreased from a yearly median of 4.3 before to 1.6 after awareness of HIV-seropositivity (p < 0.01). Among HIV-positives, a significant increase in the use of condoms, a decrease in the number of intercourses and a decrease in the frequency of anal sex was found. The results show that some changes in sexual practice may have occurred among homosexual men in general in the period from 1987 to 1992, and that more significant changes may have occurred for HIV-positive men. The present data do not support other findings of a relapse to more unsafe sex, but suggest that there is still a need to keep modifying behaviour in order to stop the spread of HIV among men who have sex with other men.
What does this study tell us? It gives the prevalence of homosexuality as nearly 4%, but less than half of them had homosexual sex within the past three years.

So let’s do some math, shall we? Let’s take the highest average number of partners, which was 4.3 per year in HIV-positive men in 1987. In order to have 500 partners, these men would need to be sexually active for 116 years. Hmm maybe they have sex with Wilt Chamberlain.

Sorry, Bobby, unless you provide me with the actual research article, I ain’t buying your statistics. But let’s consider for a minute that they are true. (I do tend to believe that overall, gay men are more promiscuous, because men are more promiscuous. Lesbians, however, are another story.) Why would promiscuity be a reason to disallow gay marriage? If gays are encouraged or allowed to get married, wouldn’t this help make them less promiscuous? I think it would. Here’s a couple of interesting studies that support my hypothesis:
Assessing nontraditional couples: validity of the marital satisfaction inventory--revised with gay, lesbian, and cohabiting heterosexual couples. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12616800&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed:
Thirty-one gay male couples and 28 lesbian couples were compared with 36 cohabiting heterosexual couples using the Marital Satisfaction Inventory-Revised (MSI-R), a multidimensional measure of relationship functioning intended for use with both traditional and nontraditional couples. Analyses of scales' internal consistency and factor structure supported the construct validity of this measure with nontraditional couples. Analyses of mean profiles on the MSI-R indicated that cohabiting opposite-gender and same-gender couples were more alike than different, and were more similar to nondistressed samples of married heterosexual couples from the general community than to couples in therapy. Implications of current findings for clinical assessment and intervention are considered, and directions for future research are proposed.
So it looks like when gay people do decide to settle down, they aren’t that different from straights in terms of marital satisfaction.

I never did find that 1981 study that Mr. Dockerton referred to above. However, what did I find in my perusal of homosexual articles from that year?
Lesbian mothers and their children: a comparative survey. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7258320&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed 1981:
Forty children ages five to 12, divided equally into groups according to their mothers' sexual object choice and within group by sex, were assessed by a research team. Gender development of the children was not identifiably different in the two groups. Prevalence of disturbance among the children was not found to be a function of the mother's sexual object choice. Case material is used to illustrate the variety and complexity of the issues involved.
Children's acquisition of sex-role behavior in lesbian-mother families. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7258319&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed 1981:
Children's play and activity interests as indices of sex-role behavior were compared for a sample of lesbian and heterosexual single mothers and their children. More striking than any differences were the similarities between the two groups of children on acquisition of sex-role behavior and between the two groups of mothers on encouragement of sex-role behavior.
The child's home environment for lesbian vs. heterosexual mothers: a neglected area of research. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7345117&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed 1981:
Much research on the lesbian experience has focused on assessing differences between lesbian and heterosexual adults. Less effort has been expended in analyzing the home environment of the child in a lesbian household. This study compares samples of lesbian and heterosexual mothers in terms of the home setting provided and the caregiver role vis-a-vis children. Results reveal a less affluent socioeconomic setting for the children of lesbian mothers. A strong child-development orientation was found among lesbian mothers, undermining the stereotype of lesbians as aloof from children.
When I researched this topic for the debate I had with GeoTheo (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5589), I found a similar trend in the published articles – gay people make fine parents. The only consistent negative finding for children of gay parents was that sometimes the children were harassed at school.
Here is a smattering of those articles that I had posted in that formal debate:
Gay and lesbian adoptive and foster care placements: can they meet the needs of waiting children? (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11329644&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed:
Although the number of children in need of adoptive homes is growing, the number of prospective adoptive parents is decreasing. On the basis of an extensive review of relevant literature, the present study explored a potentially viable although controversial and little-researched option for increasing the pool of prospective parents: adoptions by gay men and lesbians. Data for this study were collected from child welfare workers and gay and lesbian adoptive and foster parents. A content analysis of the data suggests that gay men and lesbians experience considerable and seemingly unjustified obstacles in their efforts to become adoptive and foster parents.
Sexual orientation of parents and Dutch family law. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8868496&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed:
...This article sets out psychological theories and the results of recent research which contradict the argumentation presented in a number of recent reports published by the government. The outcome of most research is that gay and lesbian parents 'perform' as well as heterosexual parents. Excluding lesbian and gay parents from taking responsibility for children seems to be a poor policy which does not take into account the social capacities of the population.
Technical report: coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11826220&dopt=Abstract)
A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual...
The above article generated some controversy from some conservative health care providers. Here is the author’s reply to the criticism, in the journal Pediatrics:
The Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health’s (COPACFH) statement on coparent adoption has generated unexpected controversy. This statement, which is about children, is intended to support all children’s rights to parenting and legal protections. It has been criticized as too accepting of homosexual parenting and nontraditional lifestyles. A conscious decision was made by the Committee to not attempt to undertake evaluation of adult lifestyles. Rather, we aim to acknowledge that a considerable number of children currently live in families headed by gay and lesbian parents, and that those children have been legally shortchanged.

Regardless of differing views about sexual orientation issues, can we not agree that the children of gay and lesbian parents deserve our care and also deserve the same legal rights that all other American children enjoy?

The feature of the COPACFH’s statement that seems to have elicited the most criticism has been our review of research data related to gay and lesbian parenting in the accompanying technical report. The COPACFH review did not reveal poor outcomes related to gay and lesbian parenting. Those who oppose this statement based on religious and moral positions take exception with the reported studies, which we consulted. In fact, our review was scrupulous and strictly confined to only peer review studies. Since publication of the COPACFH statement and technical report additional literature, notably that of Gartrell and associates, are consistent with our conclusions. If there are reasons to decry gay and lesbian parenting, these were not found in our review of the medical literature. …
I am sure that the children of gay and lesbian parents deserve our care and that they deserve the same legal rights as all American children. I believe that homosexuality is determined in utero, while others insist that it is a choice, but I am sure that in our nation these people are allowed to have children. Although the families headed by 2 lesbian mothers or 2 gay fathers are nontraditional in my view and sinful in the belief system of others, I am sure, nonetheless, that they are families. To not recognize these children, to deny any person the right of a child, or to say that these are not families, even if we do not agree with them, smacks of intolerance, bigotry, and is inconsistent with our nation’s discrimination laws.

The COPACFH welcomes and even solicits feedback and comments from our Fellows. After all, we are all pediatricians and our focus is on children. Can not this controversy be used as an opportunity to increase the dialogue regarding the needs of these children? Can we not help one another better understand these nontraditional families? Because when COPACFH wrote the statement on coparent adoption and the accompanying technical report, we did not write about gay or lesbian persons. We wrote about their children.
I really like the author’s reply – I bolded my favorite parts.
I did find one article (out of dozens) that appeared to be evidence against allowing gays and lesbians to adopt.
Children of homosexual parents report childhood difficulties. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11899016&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed:
Referenced as both supporting and weakening the case for parenting by homosexuals, 57 life-story narratives of children with homosexual parents published by Rafkin in 1990 and Saffron in 1996 were subjected to content analysis. Children mentioned one or more problems or concerns in 48 (92%) of 52 families. Of the 213 scored problems, 201 (94%) were attributed to the homosexual parent(s). Older daughters in at least 8 (27%) of 30 families and older sons in at least 2 (20%) of 10 families described themselves as homosexual or bisexual. These findings are inconsistent with propositions that children of homosexuals do not differ appreciably from those who live with married parents or that children of homosexuals are not more apt to engage in homosexuality.
There was a critical comment written later about this abstract, which read as follows here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12353800):
Cameron and Cameron's reanalysis of published data in 2002 indicates children being raised in a home environment with at least one homosexual parent report some negative consequences. However, a closer look at the information presented suggests (especially in the absence of control groups) that the negative consequences documented do not constitute major psychological trauma. Rather, they are more in the nature of the teasing and bullying that plagues any child who comes from a home that may be atypical in any fashion.
I went back to the original study, and realized that ironically, it was from the Focus on the Family's “Family Research Council” in Colorado Springs, CO. So makes you wonder - if the Family Research Council is so right about gays destroying society, than why do they need to publish dishonest studies with no control groups?

If this critical comment is correct, that the only harm was from school bullies, I find this to be a poor argument for not allowing children to be adopted. I'm sure inter-racial children, or other "controversial" children were teased (probably still are). This indicates to me that the change needs to come not from the gay parents, but from society at large – namely, people who are intolerant of homosexuality and thus raise intolerant children.

Does anyone else think it’s ironic that agencies that allegedly promote “family values” such as Focus on the Family (http://www.family.org/) is against any form of gay adoption? Even though the data clearly show that gay people who are seeking to adopt children are completely adequate to raise children?
3. "Homosexuals are (not) a persecuted minority."
Bobby Dockery:
Studies show that homosexuals are far from being persecuted. (The Arkansas Citizen, Aug. 1990, p. 1) Homosexuals have an average annual household income of $55,430 as compared to $32,144 for the general population and $12,166 for disadvantaged African-American households. Homosexuals are three times more likely to be college graduates as average Americans (60% vs. 18%). Homosexuals are three times more likely to hold professional or managerial jobs as other Americans (49% vs. 16%). Almost two-thirds of homosexuals (65.8%) are overseas travelers; that is four times the average for other Americans (14%)!
So I tried to find this data – and I couldn’t. Shocking, huh. I would be interested to read how this study was done. I suspect that if such a study exists, it is talking about gay men. In one of those studies above about lesbian mothers, they made the comment that lesbian families had a lower income than heterosexual families. So there’s one published study to contradict Mr. Dockery’s claim. If they were only using gay men in the analysis, the income difference would not be surprising since men make more than women (especially in a southern state such as Arkansas). In addition, I would want to know exactly what population they were comparing. If they were comparing gay couples to the average family, then confounding factors such as number of children, or number of women not working, surely is tainting this analysis. To be valid, they needed to compare gay couples solely to married child-free couples where both the husband and wife worked. Also, self-reporting homosexuals probably have a much different profile than in-the-closet homosexuals, so their recruitment method would be very crucial to know. They also need to explain how they can compare groups that intersect – for instance, comparing gays to African Americans. This is suspicious to me – since some people are both African American and gay. It sounds like they skewed their population than did the study. Oh but other than those problems, I’m ok with the statistics! ;)

I also think it’s very strange that Mr. Dockery only focused on average incomes when addressing whether or not homosexuals are persecuted. Here’s what dictionary.com thinks persecution is:
per•se•cute:
1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.
2. To annoy persistently; bother.

I don’t see anything in there about average income. But oh well. Let’s look at some other measures of persecution from the ACLU web site. How about unfairly applying laws to gays and lesbians? Does that count?
Examples of Sodomy Laws Used to Discriminate Against Lesbians and Gay Men (http://archive.aclu.org/issues/gay/sodomy_examples.html)

In Alabama, the sodomy law was used to deny funding to a gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered student group at a state-funded university. Anti-gay groups said the student organization would be using state funds to promote violation of state law. The ACLU, representing the student group, won that case.
When the ACLU filed a state lawsuit challenging the sodomy statute in Minnesota, plaintiffs in the case included layers and teachers whose livelihood was jeopardized by the sodomy law. Like many professions, the licensing requirements for people in these fields include forbidding professionals from engaging in illegal activity. As long as the sodomy law exists, the successful lawsuit argued, people's jobs were vulnerable.
In Mississippi, courts refused to transfer custody of a teenage boy to his father, despite the fact that they boy's mother's new husband had repeatedly beaten the mother in the boy's presence. A lower court and the state Supreme Court acknowledged that the boy's father could provide a better home for his son, but denied him custody because he is gay, and Mississippi has a sodomy law. The ACLU represented the father, and by moving the case out of Mississippi's courts, successfully secured a custody transfer.
In Virginia, a number of parenting cases have hinged on the state sodomy law (including the well-known Sharon Bottoms case, where Bottoms' mother took custody of Bottoms' child because Bottoms is a lesbian, and thus a criminal under the state's sodomy law). More recently, the ACLU has been working with a lesbian couple who want to adopt a baby in Washington, DC, and raise it at their nearby home in Northern Virginia. The state of Virginia has to approve this, which it is refusing to do in part because the women are violating the state sodomy law.
In Texas, the ACLU fought a social work supervisor who invoked her "emergency powers" to stop placing foster children with gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people. She was able to use those "emergency powers" because a law (the state sodomy law) was being broken in the homes in question. That social worker is sued the state to stop foster placements in gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered homes statewide. The ACLU, intervening on behalf of lesbian and gay Texans, prevailed. A separate legal challenge to the state's sodomy law continues.

The good news is that only a handful of states even have these on the books, and some of these cases were dismissed. However, the fact that our most private acts in the bedroom can and will be used against us in a court of law is frightening and oppressive. The fact is, even though sodomy can be practiced by both gay men, and by heterosexuals, I did not come across any case where a heterosexual was accused and charged of sodomy. I feel this is discrimination, because the law is not being applied fairly and justly to everyone.

Here are some PubMed references that address gay and lesbian discrimination. I shortened some of the abstracts because this post is already too long, but if you click on the link you can read the entire thing.
Gay and lesbian physicians in training: a qualitative study. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10693588&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed:
BACKGROUND: Gay and lesbian physicians in training face considerable challenges as they become professionalized...Gay or lesbian medical students and residents experienced significant challenges. For all participants, sexual orientation had an effect on their decisions to enter and remain in medicine...Considerable energy and emotion are spent by gay and lesbian medical students and residents navigating training programs, which may be, at best, indifferent and, at worst, hostile.
Mental health correlates of perceived discrimination among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11684618&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed:
OBJECTIVES: Recent studies suggest that lesbians and gay men are at higher risk for stress-sensitive psychiatric disorders than are heterosexual persons. We examined the possible role of perceived discrimination in generating that risk…RESULTS: Homosexual and bisexual individuals more frequently than heterosexual persons reported both lifetime and day-to-day experiences with discrimination. Approximately 42% attributed this to their sexual orientation, in whole or part. Perceived discrimination was positively associated with both harmful effects on quality of life and indicators of psychiatric morbidity in the total sample…CONCLUSIONS: Higher levels of discrimination may underlie recent observations of greater psychiatric morbidity risk among lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals.
Discrimination against same-sex couples in hotel reservation policies. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8827497&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed:
Discrimination against same-sex couples in hotel reservations policies was investigated. Hotels and bed and breakfast establishments (N = 320) were sent letters from either a same-sex or opposite-sex couple, requesting weekend reservations for a room with one bed. Same-sex couples were granted significantly fewer reservations than opposite-sex couples, suggesting that there was indeed discrimination against same-sex couples.
A moral justification for gay and lesbian civil rights legislation. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7860981&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed:
This essay explores, in two parts, the problems of justifying civil rights legislation for gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. Part I shows that discrimination against gays and lesbians at least in respect to employment, housing, and public accommodations is an evil unsupported by ethical traditions in utilitarianism, rights theory, and communitarianism...Part II argues that anti-discrimination legislation is both an appropriate and effective means to promote the idea that discrimination against lesbians and gays in respect to most employment, housing, and public accommodations is sufficiently injurious to both individuals and society that it should not be tolerated. The section also explains how such legislation might succeed practically in eliminating discrimination in these areas.[/quote
Empowering lesbian and gay communities: a call for collaboration with community psychology. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7754998&dopt=Abstract)
[quote]From PubMed:
This article traces the history of empowerment efforts in lesbian and gay communities. Despite considerable progress, lesbians and gay men remain marginalized in American society. Their personal, family, and community development is hampered by social and institutional barriers to empowerment. Three powerful disempowering problems of contemporary lesbian and gay communities are detailed: (1) stresses related to coming out; (2) heterosexism; and, (3) difficulties identifying with a community.
A critical historical analysis of the medical construction of lesbianism. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2071308&dopt=Abstract)
Lesbians are frequently treated with insensitivity, antagonism, and discrimination in health care encounters.
Suicidality patterns and sexual orientation-related factors among lesbian, gay, and bisexual youths. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11577911&dopt=Abstract)
From PubMed:
Three hundred fifty lesbian, gay, and bisexual youths aged 14 to 21 years were questioned about suicidal thoughts and behaviors, families' reactions to youths' sexual orientation, and suicidality among relatives and friends. Results confirmed an association between sexual orientation and suicidality. Nearly half (42%) had sometimes or often thought of suicide; one third (33%) reported at least one suicide attempt. Many related suicidal ideation and suicide attempts to their sexual orientation.
Whew this was a lot of work! Here’s a quick review of my main points from this thread:

1) The article written by Bobby Dockery is not well-cited, so it is very difficult to research his claims and see if they are true, or in context.

2) His point that homosexuals make up much less than 10 percent of society may be true, but only if you re-define homosexual as someone who has engaged in a sex act in the last year. He does not give any data about whether the heterosexual rate would simultaneously change if you kept this definition consistent. In addition, in my view, the actual percentage of gays in society is irrelevant as to whether they should be given equal rights.

3) Mr. Dockery attempts to disprove the myth that "homosexuals have stable, loving families just like heterosexuals" with statistics that I can't seem to find anywhere. He claims that the average homosexual has 500 partners, yet the data clearly show that the number is much less than that. In addition, Mr. Dockery is apparently unaware of the myriad of studies which overwhelmingly show that in terms of parenting ability, gays and lesbians who adopt children are as fit as heterosexuals. A review of the literature by a group of pediatricians could find no greater harm to children of gay and lesbian families than of heterosexual families. A few reports mention that these children are sometimes harassed or bullied, but even that is not a well-documented occurrence, since there was no control groups in those studies.

4) Mr. Dockery attempts to disprove the myth that "homosexuals are a persecuted minority." He quotes some statistics, again, without citing their source, that gays make more money than heteros. The statistics, which again I could not find, are fraught with problems and don't even really address discrimination. In addition, the author fails to ignore many other documented instances of gay and lesbian discrimination, which have been widely publicized all throughout the United States.
Ok that’s enough for today. I’ll be back to debunk the other points that Mr. Dockery made, since they are just as outdated, unsubstantiated, and wrong.

scigirl

winstonjen
August 5, 2003, 10:17 PM
Nice post, scigirl. Too bad that fundies can't be bothered to read that much. :(

Groovy Cosmic Monkey
August 6, 2003, 12:49 AM
Brilliant, scigirl, again!

As a young gay male I'm very appreciative of the effort you're making to keep the gay liberation movement going.

My country's prime minister announced yesterday that he would never support gay marriage because it undermines the survival of the species! Yeah, because if gay marriage were legalised, everyone would turn gay and forget about procreation. And since the world is so drastically underpopulated, survival of the species is of utmost importance! :rolleyes:

Sometimes I really wonder where these people pull their arguments from.

winstonjen
August 6, 2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Groovy Cosmic Monkey
Brilliant, scigirl, again!

As a young gay male I'm very appreciative of the effort you're making to keep the gay liberation movement going.

Boy, do I know how you feel. Incidentally, I'm going to Melbourne this Friday afternoon. Wanna meet up?

My country's prime minister announced yesterday that he would never support gay marriage because it undermines the survival of the species! Yeah, because if gay marriage were legalised, everyone would turn gay and forget about procreation. And since the world is so drastically underpopulated, survival of the species is of utmost importance! :rolleyes:

I know. You should see my letter to John Howard in the Secular Lounge forum.

Sometimes I really wonder where these people pull their arguments from.

Their virgin assholes. ;)

streamline
August 6, 2003, 03:27 AM
I've just spent the last hour reading through this and scigirl's other post on homobigots. Not only do I wholeheartedly agree with her, but as a HETEROSEXUAL male I am falling for her -- articulate, pro-science, atheist, forward-thinking, open minded, combative.. ..damn, be still my beating heart. Why can't I find girls like this in L.A.? I am going to have to stop going to the clubs in Hollywood, and try some other venues, I think...

Scigirl, keep it up!

scigirl
August 6, 2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by streamline
but as a HETEROSEXUAL male I am falling for her
Heh gee thanks! Let's see - where would you find scigirls in your area? Probably at the library, or at school. . . we lead such exciting social lives!

scigirl

Theli
August 6, 2003, 12:06 PM
My country's prime minister announced yesterday that he would never support gay marriage because it undermines the survival of the species!
Yeah, we're an endangered speices, you know. :rolleyes:

Invader Tak
August 6, 2003, 01:35 PM
I've been reading the various gay-themed threads that have been popping up here lately. Scigirl is posting great, amazing arguments, backed up with scientific evidence, no less.

It's a shame that her well reasoned, and cited posts are not getting through to the foaming-at-the-mouth bigots such as dk and senor boogie woogie (I really *do* imagine them foaming at the mouth while pounding out their bile on their keyboards .)

I guess hate makes one stupid.

My country's prime minister announced yesterday that he would never support gay marriage because it undermines the survival of the species!

Wow, a leader dumber than Dubya!

[Edited for clarity]

scigirl
August 6, 2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Invader Tak
It's a shame that her well reasoned, and cited posts are not getting through to the foaming-at-the-mouth bigots such as dk and senor boogie woogie
Well don't worry. Even though I address these posts to them, they aren't written for their benefit. I know there is little chance in (nonexistent) hell that I can change their minds.

These posts are written to be a resource for everyone here to use when arguing with fundamentalists, and also for those lurkers who haven't quite made up their minds about such issues. I can imagine a fence-sitter reading these threads and going, "Hmm a well-reasoned argument with evidence to back it up, versus continuously unsupported claims with no evidence whatsoever." That's my hope anyway.

scigirl

brighid
August 6, 2003, 02:32 PM
scigirl,

Please accept my highest compliments for a job well done! If you don't mind I would like to cut and paste your entire post and keep it in my archives to use at a later date (my mother makes almost identical arguments, but this isn't surprising given that she is a supporter of Focus on the Family.) You have found all the information I have been looking for, but didn't have the time to research. I sincerely appreciate your thorough effort and I wish those who need to read this information would. Hopefully many individual users and lurkers at iidb will benefit from all your hard work. I know I have and as an individual and as a moderator on this forum I cannot thank you enough for all your efforts.

Brighid

Shake
August 6, 2003, 04:10 PM
Ahhh... just lost my reply! :mad:

Anyway, nice job, scigirl!

The gist of my reply was that I found it humorous that an Xian site would try to debunk the claim that gays are persecuted when they've tried to say the same thing ... that they are being persecuted here in the US, and we should feel bad for the poor Xians. :rolleyes: http://www.boomspeed.com/taffer/banghead.gif

tronvillain
August 6, 2003, 04:36 PM
I was going to point out a few things, but upon further reading you pointed them out yourself. *sigh* Ah well, good job. *chuckle*

Fr.Andrew
August 6, 2003, 04:45 PM
Thanks again, scigirl! I think we may all want to archive this stuff--I have a feeling it will come in handy over the next few years.

Chiron
August 6, 2003, 11:22 PM
Everyone, note well that the... paper... (I use this word hesitantly, as I'm not sure it qualifies) that scigirl was ripping up is hosted by the "Fredericksburg Church of Christ", which is "Located in the heart of the Texas Hill Country at: [address]". (Remember how only a few weeks ago did the ACLU finally strike down Texas' sodomy law?)
However, something that strikes me as odd is how Senor Boogie Woogie posted the domain of the site as an IP address, not as a human-readable domain name. The site does indeed have a perfectly normal URL (two, in fact: www.fbg-church.org and fbg-church.org), and if you tack the path /articles/hsmyths.htm onto the end, you come to the exact same place. Might the good Mister Style of Jazz Piano Characterized by a Repeated Rhythmic and Melodic Pattern have meant to hide the source of the "paper"? (One guess as to what I think!)

-Chiron

pmurray
August 6, 2003, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by scigirl this bit is a quote of a quote, it is not originally by scigirl, ok?

3. "Homosexuals are (not) a persecuted minority."

Bobby Dockery:
Studies show that homosexuals are far from being persecuted. (The Arkansas Citizen, Aug. 1990, p. 1) Homosexuals have an average annual household income of $55,430 as compared to $32,144 for the general population and $12,166 for disadvantaged African-American households.
Homosexuals are three times more likely to be college graduates as average Americans (60% vs. 18%). Homosexuals are three times more likely to hold professional or managerial jobs as other Americans (49% vs. 16%). Almost two-thirds of homosexuals (65.8%) are overseas travelers; that is four times the average for other Americans (14%)!



BWAHAHAH! Try substituting "Jew" for "Homosexual" in that passage, and you'll see exactly where this guy is coming from.

Studies show that jews are far from being persecuted. Jews have an average annual household income of $55,430 as compared to $32,144 for the general population and $12,166 for disadvantaged households. Jews are three times more likely to be college graduates as average Germans (60% vs. 18%). Jews are three times more likely to hold professional or managerial jobs as other Germans (49% vs. 16%). Almost two-thirds of jews (65.8%) are overseas travelers; that is four times the average for other Germans (14%)!


Hear the drumbeat? Jew! Jew! Jew! Exactly the same thing. We have lived through one of the more terrible centuries in history, and people haven't learned a damn thing.

Fr.Andrew
August 7, 2003, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by pmurray
Try substituting "Jew" for "Homosexual" in that passage, and you'll see exactly where this guy is coming from.[/QUOTE]

(Fr Andrew): Here's (http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/hitler/hitler.html) a more in-depth comparison. The rhetoric is the same--the target has changed.

senor boogie woogie
August 7, 2003, 05:37 AM
Hola!

http://www.amazinginfoonhomosexuals.com/anal_sex.htm.

SENOR

senor boogie woogie
August 7, 2003, 05:39 AM
www.amazinginfoon.homosexuals.com

conkermaniac
August 7, 2003, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by senor boogie woogie
www.amazinginfoon.homosexuals.com Why don't you actually tell us why you think homosexuality is wrong in your own words, citing references to a specific article, instead of posting a link to a site and asking that scigirl spend her time explaining it for you? It only takes you a couple of minutes to find an article, but I'm sure it takes scigirl at least an hour, if not a few hours, to sort and analyze it.

Anyway, I see that you list "China" as your location, and if you are Chinese, your anti-gay bigotry certainly does not surprise me. Being Chinese myself and having lived in both the US and China for a considerable amount of time, I have found that most Chinese are aggressive, intolerant, and deeply prejudiced.

You don't have to be in China more than a few days to see the mean-spiritedness in the minds of many, if not most, Chinese. Just a few minutes ago, I was in the car with my mom, and a motorcyclist came speeding by. Since the traffic light was green, my mom didn't bother stopping, and the motorcyclist stopped in the middle of the road and started screaming at my mom. This actually happens quite often, and it is not unusual to see brawls between taxi drivers taking place in the middle of the street (I've seen it at least 5 times in 3 years, and I'm one of those people who don't go out much). On a much smaller scale, there are almost always traffic jams in the city that I live in, mostly due to the Chinese's reluctance to give in. I believe this competitive attitude is fostered by the school and work setting, where competition is extremely high, due to the massive population.

In addition, racism is prevalent throughout Chinese society. During our past trip to America a month ago, one of my mom's friends yelled at her husband in the car for honking the horn at a car that just happened to have an African-American driver. "What are you doing honking your horn at a black guy?" she said. "He'll beat you to death." Now, do not mistaken this for an isolated event. I have heard racist remarks regarding blacks made by Chinese people in both China and America (although considerably less in China, probably because there aren't many blacks here). Chinese people also don't seem to like Jews very much, and the most common labels that I've heard are "sneaky" and "deceitful".

Furthermore, the Chinese elite also discriminate against the poor. This is in fact the primary reason they revere Westerners -- they generalize all whites as rich, high-class people. If you walk into a high-class department store in Shanghai and ask a salesperson for assistance, it is not rare that you will be openly insulted if you refuse to buy the product. One lady in a department store called my mom "a fat woman with bad taste in clothing who wouldn't know any better". Many of my mom's friends have reported similar experiences.

With this type of horrifying behavior, is it any surprise that most Chinese people aren't exactly willing to accept gays either? It is for these reasons that I am sometimes ashamed to call myself Chinese, as much as I am proud of my culture and my heritage.

And believe it or not, I was headed in this direction of discrimination, bigotry, and racism too, until I discovered the inherent unfairness of this system. I began adopting liberal views, such as my firm belief in the equality of all people, regardless of race, handicap, sexuality, or gender (although I am a bit hesitant when it comes to religion).

Please don't mistaken me for being racist: I love the Chinese people, and I wish we could all change and promote an atmosphere of love and friendliness. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening anytime soon. But I can almost see the light at the end of this dark, dark tunnel: in the above event regarding the African-American driver, the daughter retorted, "That's racist, Mom!" Hopefully, this is a sign for times to change. :)

Phew, that was a long rant. I'm sorry for going so far off-topic. I hope you respond to senor boogie woogie's new link, scigirl, and put this matter to rest! :D

Wounded King
August 7, 2003, 08:16 AM
How do these studies reach conclusions about who is more or less promiscuous.A lot of these studies seem to suggest there must be some super promiscuous women out there who make time to have sex with all the men who have loads of partners to compensate for all those virtuous monogamous women, either that or the disparity in sex ratio must be bigger than reported.

dk
August 7, 2003, 10:05 AM
scigirl: My first criticism: This web site comes from a religious tract titled: "Homosexuality: Are Same Sex Relationships A Christian Option?" by Bobby Dockery. He cites lots of statistics, but there is no good bibliography, so no way to validate any of his claims, or make sure they were not taken out of context.
dk: Ok but I don’t understand why you want to brink Kinsey up. His books, suede-facts and theories have been defrocked. Yet they liter the library shelves and curriculum of public schools, Museums and Universities around the world. If you’re going to criticize opponents of the Gay Rights Movement with a Web Sight then even if substantive your line of reasoning damages PC libraries, public education, libraries and universities much more.
"Ten percent of the population is (not) homosexual."
scigirl: My first reaction is, so what? Who cares if it’s 0.02% or 80% - discriminating against someone based on their sexual orientation is wrong no matter how many people are gay, right? But let’s examine his data.
dk: If I’m not mistake it was Kinsey’s that made the errant claim under the guise science over 40 years. Its only a concern because Kinsey’s errors are still being taught as science, when in fact his brand of unethical research has nothing to do with science but politics. Even today Kinsey’s conclusions are taught as scientific fact in most k1-k12, and many universities. Even worse the Kinsey Institute at Indiana University continues to perpetuate the fraud and errors. A clear case where politics pollutes science, pedagogy of science and demeans the ethics essential to the reputation of the scientific community.
(snip)

scigirl: First, I wonder, why he quoted a newspaper review of the article from Science, rather than the original article. It makes me think he didn’t read it. Here’s the abstract:
dk: You’re avoiding the substance of the criticism to focus on Abstract. If the criticism was supported and valid then it’s relevant and pertinent, so you need to address it.
(snip)

.scigirl: So while Mr. Dockery is correct in stating that the Kinsey data is probably inaccurate, he fails to point out that the scientists think the data under-reports the lower-bound estimates of homosexual activity, not over-reports. See the bolded statement in the abstract above. I have to get this article by physically walking to the library, since it’s from 1989, but I will read it and see what the Science authors estimate the current homosexual rates to be.
dk: Was Kinsey’s research flawed?… The answer is yes. Several books have been written on Kinsey’s unethical methods and manipulation of data used to support his pre-conceived conclusions. I personally think trying to defend Kinsey’s methods, ethics and research is silly and ineffective. To say the least Kinsey enjoyed his work to much and became the subject of his own inquiry. Kinsey reflects himself into his research and conclusions, and in doing so became the subject… and he was probably more than 10% homosexual, x% pedophile, y% prostitute, z% felon etc….
(snip)

scigirl: I think that what Mr. Dockery wants to do is very interesting – he wants to re-define homosexuals as those people who have had homosexual sex within the last year. However, I doubt he defines heterosexual in the same fashion. Is an engaged Christian virgin NOT a heterosexual then, because she hasn’t had sex yet? If he wants to re-define sexuality in this manner, he needs to be consistent, since my guess is that the rates of both homosexuality and heterosexuality will go down by the same rate if you exclude all people who haven’t had sex within the last year. And you will have this new category of people as “asexual” or “non-sexual.” In any case, when we are talking about the rights of gays to get married, it seems to me that their previous sexual activity is not as relevant as their current desire to be with someone of the same gender. So in that case, I think it’s more valid to use the desire numbers, which do appear to be somewhere between 10 and 20 percent.
dk: There is no empirical definition of homosexuality, and many inexplicable anomalies, contradictions and flaws in any attempt at a scientific definition. Homosexuality is more of an aesthetic media concoction than a psychological or biological theory. Is a man that loves to dominate, degrade and humiliate other men with anal sex a homosexual, of course not. Why? Because such a representation of homosexuality would be aesthetically ugly. So, if the media and social scientists want to make homosexuality appealing they exclude what’s ugly and emphasize what’s pleasing or at least not revolting. I surprised a bright person like you hasn’t figured this out scigirl.
.
scigirl: Another point that I noticed from these statistics which managed to escape Mr. Dockery’s analysis: If homosexuals are as sexually active as he claims later, why is there such a discrepancy between the percent of men and women who have had homosexual desires, and the percent of men and women who have actually had homosexual sex? Mr. Dockery makes it sound like as soon as a guy “chooses” to be gay, he immediately runs out and sleeps with 500 men. Well not according to this data – there are more people who wish to have homosexual sex than are actually having it.
dk: I’ll tell you why. Men are intensely aroused by visual stimuli, while women tend to be aroused by emotional, intellectual and physical intimacy. In effect men as sexual creatures tend to be more detached from the person with whom they copulate, i.e. more promiscuous. I’ve known heterosexuals so messed up they regarded sex with their wife as a chore or duty, and sex with prostituted or complete stranger as satisfying. Men are more promiscuous because they are aroused visually. Why are women so rarely rapists, pedophiles or ephebophiles? But I wouldn’t get caught up in Kinsey’s research because he focused his research on criminals, himself and sexual deviants.
.
scigirl: And like I stated earlier, I think the previous 4 or 5 paragraphs of my argument are irrelevant to this discussion anyway. Who cares if it’s 2% or 10%? It’s still wrong to discriminate based on someone’s sexual orientation.
dk: I agree. The real issue is… What happens when politics and science collide?

. . "Homosexuals (do not) have stable, loving families just like heterosexuals."
Mr Dockey: The reality: A 1981 study showed that only 2% of homosexuals have relationships that are even semi-stable (which for the purposes of the study was defined as having fewer than 10 lifetime partners!) The average homosexual has 500 (mostly anonymous) lifetime partners. Thirty percent of homosexuals will have more than 1000 sexual partners in their lifetime.
scigirl: He provides no references for these statistics. So I did my own research – looking at 1981 with the words “homosexual” and “partner,” and a bunch of other words. I did not find a single article that validates his statistics. However, I did find an article that talks about number of partners in different groups of gay men in Norway.
dk: I’ll give you a reliable unbiased source, read And the Band Play On. Clearly GaysBILesbians(GBL) want stable loving families. So do adulators, pedophiles, emobophiles, rapists, murders, perjurers, drug addicts, alcoholics... What’s your point?
(snip)

From PubMed: Prevalence and trends in homosexual behaviour in Norway
The three main objectives of this study were to estimate the proportion of the Norwegian population with experience of homosexual behaviour, to study the degree of change in sexual practices among homosexual men during a 5-year period and to study the degree of change in sexual practices reported by HIV positive homosexual men from before to after awareness of HIV-positivity. The data comes from two questionnaire surveys (in 1987 and 1992) of sexual behaviour in the general population of Norway and a questionnaire study of sexual behaviour before and after awareness of HIV-positivity among HIV-positive homosexual men taking part in a cohort study starting in 1988 (the Oslo HIV cohort study). Estimation of the proportion of subjects with homosexual experience was made as well as a trend analysis of the number of male sexual partners per year, number of intercourses per month, condom use and anal sex. Among men aged 18 to 60 from the general population, 3.8% reported homosexual practice during lifetime and 1.2% during the past 3 years. Among women, the same percentages were 3.1 and 1.0. In the surveys, the number of male partners per year decreased significantly for men with current homosexual experience from a yearly median of 1.0 in 1987 to 0.3 in 1992 (p = 0.02). Among HIV-positives, the number of male partners decreased from a yearly median of 4.3 before to 1.6 after awareness of HIV-seropositivity (p < 0.01). Among HIV-positives, a significant increase in the use of condoms, a decrease in the number of intercourses and a decrease in the frequency of anal sex was found. The results show that some changes in sexual practice may have occurred among homosexual men in general in the period from 1987 to 1992, and that more significant changes may have occurred for HIV-positive men. The present data do not support other findings of a relapse to more unsafe sex, but suggest that there is still a need to keep modifying behaviour in order to stop the spread of HIV among men who have sex with other men.
.scigirl: What does this study tell us? It gives the prevalence of homosexuality as nearly 4%, but less than half of them had homosexual sex within the past three years.
dk: It tells us AIDs changed Gay behavior. When HAART treatments came out HIV prevalence report indicated gays backslide, and some even celebrated publicly by riding one another bareback. Women are naturally less promiscuous than men, and AIDs moved them to become more selective in the choice of intimate partners. The real story is about the young gay protégés infected by gay mentors liberated by HAART treatments.
(snip)

scigirl: Sorry, Bobby, unless you provide me with the actual research article, I ain’t buying your statistics. But let’s consider for a minute that they are true. (I do tend to believe that overall, gay men are more promiscuous, because men are more promiscuous. Lesbians, however, are another story.) Why would promiscuity be a reason to disallow gay marriage? If gays are encouraged or allowed to get married, wouldn’t this help make them less promiscuous? I think it would. Here’s a couple of interesting studies that support my hypothesis:
dk: Hey, I think you have a point. Lesbians should start a Lesbian Rights Movement for two primary reasons, 1) MTCT HIV babies, can virtually eliminate the tragedy with mandatory testing of at risk women. 2) Women are exposed by IDU and Bi men protected by the Gay and BI leadership under the shadow of penumbra privacy rights.


dk: I’m not going to address the rest because I assume you put your best argument up front. Bring one more up if you want, but please make sure you have a substantive argument to present. .

dk
August 7, 2003, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Groovy Cosmic Monkey
Brilliant, scigirl, again!

As a young gay male I'm very appreciative of the effort you're making to keep the gay liberation movement going.

My country's prime minister announced yesterday that he would never support gay marriage because it undermines the survival of the species! Yeah, because if gay marriage were legalised, everyone would turn gay and forget about procreation. And since the world is so drastically underpopulated, survival of the species is of utmost importance! :rolleyes:

Sometimes I really wonder where these people pull their arguments from.

Hey, don't worry your pretty little head over it, your Prime Minister is a homophobe. If Europe is so overpopulated then why have they been forced to use ARAB cheap labor to sustain you're standard of living. More important whose going support the baby boomers when they hit retirement?

Old Europe's biggest problem today is a falling and unsustainable birth rate.

Even today old Europe can't raise enough healthy children to field an army, maintain infrastructure or operate industry. Its a laugher.

Diadectes
August 7, 2003, 10:33 AM
posted by dk:

"Hey, don't worry your pretty little head over it, your Prime Minister is a homophobe. If Europe is so overpopulated then why have they been forced to use ARAB cheap labor to sustain you're standard of living. More important whose going support the baby boomers when they hit retirement?

Old Europe's biggest problem today is a falling and unsustainable birth rate.

Even today old Europe can't raise enough healthy children to field an army, maintain infrastructure or operate industry. Its a laugher."


Yeah, and so is the fact that you think Melbourne is in Europe.

diana
August 7, 2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by senor boogie woogie
Hola!

http://www.amazinginfoonhomosexuals.com/anal_sex.htm.

SENOR Hola!

Let's take a look at your "well-researched" response. It was a good read...for those with no critical skills and a short attention span. For the rest of us, though, it's just sad. But amusing in the same way that all religions' overriding obsession with specific sexual acts is amusing. I mean, if they're that fascinated with it, they should just try it and get it over with, y'know? Quit wallowing in their self-righteous self-denial that provokes them to devote a lifetime to telling others in lurid detail what those UNNAMED sick people do.

First, though, I want to quote something off his main page (http://www.amazinginfoonhomosexuals.com/), on account of I found it amusing: I have a tremendous amount of interesting information on the two issues summarized here as well as other issues related to homosexuality, but it takes a lot of time and money to compile such information, especially if you are a busy graduate student struggling to pay debts and make ends meet. If you would like to see more such material published, then please donate some money.So, if you're struggling to make ends meet and so don't have the time to do your own research, send me money? Hahahaha. I know you're broke, so pay me. Right.

Onward.

The fascinating article about anal sex that monsieur senor linked us to is quite short, and just a sample of the fare Erik Holland offers in big ol' buttloads on his site. He began with this:I see god in my asshole in the flashbulb of orgasm.

-William Burroughs (Naked Lunch)Was there a point to this leading quote, even? Ah. To provoke disgust, moral outrage, and set the mood. Those who have marginal or nonexistent critical thinking skills are now more likely to mistake their emotional responses to what follows as truth.

Anal sex is one of the most cherished activities of homosexual men.It's also one of the most cherished activities of heterosexual men. The rest of this article deals with the ins and outs of anal sex, so let's take a look at what these sick heterosexual fudgepackers do, shall we?

(NOTE: All I've done is replace, throughout the article, all references to "homosexuals"--which he says a lot, as though anal sex and all its various affectations is solely a homosexual activity--with "heterosexuals," as well as replacing gender references, where appropriate, to make my point. (All alterations are in bold font. Note how neatly the glove fits, either way. In addition, I've inserted the occasional snide remark on account of I'm flummoxed that (1) people even make such arguments as these and (2) people actually believe such arguments.)

Before engaging in anal sex, heterosexuals often like to prepare the anus for penile penetration, usually by lubing it with saliva. Heterosexuals call the practice of licking the anus, followed by rectal insertion of the tongue and its movements, rimming. Some heterosexuals don’t mind coming in contact with feces; others do. For the latter, anal cleanliness and smell is important. Some heterosexuals put perfume on their anus to make it smell better, but the alcohol may sting. Others try massage-oils, but such oils can taste bad, weaken condoms, or even irritate the anus. Goldstone suggests honey or jam on the anus for an agreeable taste. [1] Sometimes, attempts to maintain anal cleanliness may be deleterious for heterosexuals. Goldstone described a heterosexual patient who complained of pain and bleeding with his bowel movements. The patient had deep cuts in the skin surrounding his anus. The patient wiped so hard with toilet paper before anal sex that he was literally wiping away his skin. [1]The patient had no access to soap and water? His crime, then, is not being gay. It's being an idiot.

On the other hand, anal sex itself may lead to bleeding.On the other hand, vaginal intercourse may lead to bleeding. And we all know that when this happens, the man ceases immediately and they go play checkers instead.

Coplan et al reported that among 2,758 men who were tested between June 1991 and December 1992 in Mexico City, bleeding during anal intercourse was a common occurrence. [2]And when their female partners complained, they swore off the back 40 for life. Right?

The reference is "Coplan PM, Gortmaker S, Hernandez-Avila M, et al. Human immunodeficiency virus infection in Mexico City. Rectal bleeding and anal warts as risk factors among men reporting sex with men. Am J Epidemiol 1996;144(9):817-27." Yes. Rectal bleeding and anal warts are equally risk factors among heterosexuals.

More than one-third of the women in the study reported some bleeding, and 8% reported bleeding in half or more of their intercourse episodes. The prevalence of HIV infection was 42% in bleeders and 28% in non-bleeders. [2]

Heterosexuals that don’t mind feces do not have to deal with anal cleanliness. After rimming, a heterosexual may insert one or two fingers up the anus of his partner, prior to penile penetration. After ejaculating in the rectum, the penetrator or another partner may rim the recipient again to suck back the ejaculate. Alternatively, the penetrator or another partner may insert a straw in the recipient’s rectum and “slurp” back the ejaculate.Heterosexuals are disgusting! We don't let these people teach our children, do we? Ew!

Heterosexuals like a big penis, but most penises fall short of their liking.Ain't that the truth?

However, one should not underestimate the ingenuity that allows them to overcome the shortcomings of the human penis.Socks stuffed in crotches spring to mind, as well as purchasing oversized stereos and monster trucks.

d

livius drusus
August 7, 2003, 11:22 AM
Thank you for that in depth analysis, diana. Nothing puts me more in the mood for a good ass-ramming than erotic descriptions of honey-infused ani and spelunking for sperm. One thing, though. Can I use one of those bendy straws? Because I really like that noise they make when you suck cum through them.

viscousmemories
August 7, 2003, 11:31 AM
Whew, thanks for clearing that up diana. I was afraid I was gay for a minute there.

Amaranth
August 7, 2003, 11:36 AM
Can I use one of those bendy straws? Because I really like that noise they make when you suck cum through them.

Dear gods - that actually evoked a shudder. Using a bendy straw...what won't you liberals sink to?

Amaranth

scigirl
August 7, 2003, 12:16 PM
Dk - please actually read my posts. I was not discussing kinsey data, I merely mentioned it. And if you actually read my posts, you will see that I stated that the NEW SCIENTISTS and that Bobby guy BOTH AGREED that the Kinsey data was out of date. That's why they did A NEW STUDY. I was not debating the kinsey statistics. Do I need to repeat myself? I will: please actually read my posts. Carefully. You are the biggest proponent of the non-sequitor I have ever met.

Also, your comment about assuming I put my best argument first is another clue that you do not read or comprehend my posts. I was debunking another web site, in order of his points. If you actually READ MY POST, you would have known that. And you also would have seen that I thought his point number 1 was irrelevant - since whether or not gays make up 0.2% or 80% of the population is irrelevant as to whether they should be given rights. So no, my first argument was definitely NOT my best one.

Hey dk - quit fantasizing about anal sex you sicko and actually read my posts, ok?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
senor - nope I'm not going to do your homework for you. I'm beginning to suspect that you are actually pro-gay rights, you were assigned to write a paper on it, and you are using me to write it for you by pretending to be a bigot.

If you want to discuss this issue, fine and dandy. This is what you do. You post a web site, quote some stuff from it, then discuss how that stuff supports your theory. You know, like I did. Several times.

Everyone else- thanks for the support.

scigirl

dk
August 7, 2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Diadectes
posted by dk:

"Hey, don't worry your pretty little head over it, your Prime Minister is a homophobe. If Europe is so overpopulated then why have they been forced to use ARAB cheap labor to sustain you're standard of living. More important whose going support the baby boomers when they hit retirement?

Old Europe's biggest problem today is a falling and unsustainable birth rate.

Even today old Europe can't raise enough healthy children to field an army, maintain infrastructure or operate industry. Its a laugher."


Yeah, and so is the fact that you think Melbourne is in Europe. Answer the questions..

Who protects Europe? Answer the US Military has for the last 40 years.

Why do Moslems migrate to Old Europe? Answer, Is it the will of Allah? No its because Europe needs a cheap labor to sustain their fruitless egotistical life style.

What will Europe do in 30 years with 1/2 of their geriatric population living off the government? Answer: I haven't a clue how the US or Europe will resolve the labor crisis. First they’ll probably sell it as a robot shortage, and an immigration problem. Maybe they’ll open hospices where infirm (old) people can be euphemized antiseptically. I wonder what kind of myths they’ll invent to purvey death as yet another final solution.

scigirl
August 7, 2003, 12:44 PM
dk and others - since this is my thread, I kindly ask that you please stick to the topic at hand. Specifically, anti-gay arguments and refuting or supporting them.

Thank you very much,

scigirl

dk
August 7, 2003, 12:57 PM
scigirl: Dk - please actually read my posts. I was not discussing kinsey data, I merely mentioned it. And if you actually read my posts, you will see that I stated that the NEW SCIENTISTS and that Bobby guy BOTH AGREED that the Kinsey data was out of date. That's why they did A NEW STUDY. I was not debating the kinsey statistics. Do I need to repeat myself? I will: please actually read my posts. Carefully. You are the biggest proponent of the non-sequitor I have ever met.
dk: If you don’t want to discuss Kinsey, then don’t bring up Kinsey’s data and research. Forty years ago Kinsey proved 10% of the population was homosexual, and he defined homosexuality on a sexometer orientated from 1 to 6. You can’t even define homosexuality without Kinsey’s mythical sexometer. This is the boomerang. You have argued political opponents of the Gay Rights Movement misrepresent the scientific facts. Low and behold Kinsey’s work and findings liter the curriculum from pre-school kids to universities, and virtually every public library. You undermine the Gay Rights Movement with your own argument. That’s what happens when politics and science collide!

scigirl: Also, your comment about assuming I put my best argument first is another clue that you do not read or comprehend my posts. I was debunking another web site, in order of his points. If you actually READ MY POST, you would have known that. And you also would have seen that I thought his point number 1 was irrelevant - since whether or not gays make up 0.2% or 80% of the population is irrelevant as to whether they should be given rights. So no, my first argument was definitely NOT my best one.
dk: Hey, which point was your most substantial? I’ll address it.

scigirl: Hey dk - quit fantasizing about anal sex you sicko and actually read my posts, ok?
dk: So far you’re most substantive issue has been an ad hominem attack.

scigirl: senor - nope I'm not going to do your homework for you. I'm beginning to suspect that you are actually pro-gay rights, you were assigned to write a paper on it, and you are using me to write it for you by pretending to be a bigot.
If you want to discuss this issue, fine and dandy. This is what you do. You post a web site, quote some stuff from it, then discuss how that stuff supports your theory. You know, like I did. Several times.
Everyone else- thanks for the support.
dk: Hey, if it helps I appreciate your efforts to address an emotional laden, politically driven issue in a scientic objective fashion. But this is a discussion board where in good faith people argue issues they feel important. I'm take the position again and again that The Gay Rights Movement presents a moral and political agenda, not a scientific agenda. I think I'm right, because science doesn't have an agenda. Please don’t take my comments personally, they aren’t meant as a personal attack.

Diadectes
August 7, 2003, 01:00 PM
Answer the questions..

What questions? All I see is paranoid ranting that has bugger all to do with the topic.

Right, now I'm off to catch the Channel ferry to Australia :D

queue
August 7, 2003, 01:03 PM
Hello scigirl,

I just want to post a few thoughts concerning the studies used (I do not wish to get involved in whether homosexuality is right or wrong and I am completely against any discrimination for any reason). I have always seen a homosexual act (having sexual relations with someone of the same sex) as being different from homosexuality (a person that is sexually attracted to someone of the same sex and not sexually attracted to someone of the opposite sex).

A homosexual act can be performed by someone that is homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual (someone that is sexually attracted to both males and females). Just imagine a prison. Homosexual acts are performed there but does that mean that the people engaging in those acts are sexually attracted to members of the same sex or is it that members of the same sex is the only way that they will be able to have sex? There can be homosexuals in prisons so some of the people that engage in homosexual acts in prison could be homosexuals but not everyone that engages in the homosexual acts in prison are homosexuals.

The reason that I bring this up is because of this (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2911744&dopt=Abstract) and this (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9106944&dopt=Abstract) abstract that is determining "same-gender sexual contact among men" and "subjects with homosexual experience" respectively. These seem to be telling the number of people that have engaged in a homosexual act and not whether these people are sexually attracted to people of the same sex. Some of these people could be homosexuals but they could be heterosexuals as well. So I would not use the numbers from these studies to determine the number of homosexuals.

(Warning: the following is a tangent)
I took a Human Sexuality class when I was in college in the late 1980's. We looked at some studies concerning (I think they were called) Tea Rooms (no, I do not have the studies and I do not remember where they were from). These were public places where a guy could go to be brought to an orgasm by someone else. The places were normally restrooms in an "out of the way" place (such as in the back of a park or a seldom used rest area). In the studies they did followup reviews with people that had frequented these places and found that the majority of people were heterosexuals. That is about all that I remember about those studies. The only reason that I remember this information is when I was a child, I went to a restroom in a mall and the stall that I went into had a hole between the stall that I was in and the next one over (at the appropriate height for a male standing and with toilet paper around the hole). There was someone in the next stall that seemed to be waiting for something (my own interpretation of his actions). This could have been just a pervert watching other people but when I was in that college class, it struck me that it might have been one of these Tea Rooms.
(Okay, I am done with this tangent.):)

Something that I was looking for in the abstracts that you posted was % of people that were raised by 2 parent homosexuals that became homosexuals versus the % of people that were raised by 2 parent heterosexuals that became homosexuals. I did not see that information. If the % of people that are raised by homosexuals become homosexuals is higher than the % of people raised by heterosexuals, then this might point to "nurture" being a larger part of how a homosexual develops (and conversely how a heterosexual develops) than I had previously thought. Whether this is "good" or "bad" is subjective.

(Another tangent)
Back in college (again), I had a friend with a Behavioral Science major that did her senior thesis on whether sexual identity development was nature (genetic) or nurture (how they were raised). She had several people review her paper and sources. I was one of the people that she had review her paper. From the studies she found, she claimed that the sexual identity development was both nature and nurture. When I reviewed the paper and studies, the best that I could make out, the information was that we did not know how the sexual identity is developed. It could be nature or nurture or a combination of both. Since each person (even twins) have different experiences growing up, it is extremely difficult to use a control group in these studies without using inhumane measures (strictly controling all of the experiences that a person has growing up). From the information that I had seen, I had assumed that the sexual identity was a combination of nature and nurture but that nature played a larger role than nurture. I also wondered about the nurture part. People (brothers and sisters) can be raised the exact same way but turn out completely different from each other. This took me to the experiences that each person has being raised part and I realized that each and every person has different experiences and at different times and will interpret the same experience differently depending on the time (3 years old versus 7 years old) and the persons mood (or vulnerability or gullibility). So until I see more information regarding the sexual identity development (whether it is nature or nurture or a combination), I will just have to settle for the "I do not know" whether it is nature or nurture that causes someone to become a homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual. BTW, I do not consider this high on my list to do, so I will not go out searching for this information.
(End of this tangent.) :)

In the Lesbian mothers and their children: a comparative survey. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7258320&dopt=Abstract) it stated "Prevalence of disturbance among the children was not found to be a function of the mother's sexual object choice" but in the text of Technical report: coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/109/2/341) it states "Compared with young adults who had heterosexual mothers, men and women who had lesbian mothers were slightly more likely to consider the possibility of having a same-sex partner, and more of them had been involved in at least a brief relationship with someone of the same sex...". Whether this is counted as a disturbance or not is arguable (subjective).

In that second link, it uses "divorced homosexual parent" and compared that to "divorced heterosexual parents". I did not know that homosexuals could marry in the US (with the exception of civil unions in Vermont). Is the "divorced homosexual parent" where there was a heterosexual marriage (one male and one female) and they got divorced because one was a homosexual or is it a homosexual couple that split up? I am wondering about this because if it was a heterosexual marriage that divorced because one was a homosexual then the children would have been raised in a heterosexual household until the divorce. I would think that this would invalidate the comparison between the two groups.

The second link also has "Similar proportions of young adults who had homosexual parents and those who had heterosexual parents have reported feelings of attraction toward someone of the same sex". Were the young adults raised by two homosexual parents ever since infancy? Were the young adults raised in a heterosexual household until there was a divorce because one of the parents was homosexual? Were the young adults raised by a single homosexual parent or two homosexual parents? Of the young adults that were raised by homosexual parents, what percent of the homosexual households was there only one parent and two parents? Of the young adults that were raised by heterosexual parents, what percent of the heterosexual households was there only one parent and two parents? These are a few of the questions that I would want to know before I used this study as a reference.

I have spent enough time on this so I will just say that I do not see a problem with homosexuals getting married, as long as they get the same benefits (inheritance, parental rights, insurance,...etc) and responsibilities (divorce to split up, child support, alimony, being a parent, splitting up possesions, ...etc.).

If there are errors, I am extremely sorry. I accidentally hit the submit button instead of the preview button and I do not have the time to keep reviewing and editing this post right now.

dk
August 7, 2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by scigirl
dk and others - since this is my thread, I kindly ask that you please stick to the topic at hand. Specifically, anti-gay arguments and refuting or supporting them.

Thank you very much,

scigirl

I don't mean to be needlessly offensive, but you argued...

scigirl: "He cites lots of statistics, but there is no good bibliography, so no way to validate any of his claims, or make sure they were not taken out of context. "

In doing so introduced the quality of anti-gay "sources" posted on a web sight, as a substantive criticism.

Thus, opened the door for me to examine the quality of pro-gay sources which liter the curriculums and libraries of public education and universities. That's what happens when science and politics collide! My real point is that The Gay Rights Movement isn't a scientific issue, but a moral and political issue.

Since this is a board dedicated to "Moral Foundations & Principles" I don't see the problem. In fact, maybe you should move the whole thread.

scigirl
August 7, 2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by dk
Thus, opened the door for me to examine the quality of pro-gay sources which liter the curriculums and libraries of public education and universities.


dk - I was referring to your comments about moslems, and the Europe labor crisis. Those were clearly off topic. Obviously your comments about the gay activist movement are relevant.

And once again - I already explained why I brought up the name Kinsey. Bobby was whining about how the Kinsey data was inaccurate. I agreed. I found new data. Why are you still arguing about the kinsey data with me? I did not bring up the Kinsey data - I brought up new data. Please read my posts.

dk: So far you’re most substantive issue has been an ad hominem attack.
How can you say that when you admitted to only reading the first part of my post?

queue - very interesting ideas - I'll have to think about those thoughts, and get back to you.

scigirl

Mike in NC
August 7, 2003, 01:53 PM
Hello everybody, I'm new to this forum and I have been following the gay themed threads for some time. Allow me to put my $.02 worth in, if I may.
Dk, you seem to be obsessed with this notion of a gay conspiracy to get their creepy hands on our youth. Let me tell you a little about myself. I am a 45 yo gay male, Catholic upbringing, southern by birth. I was told nothing about sex by either my parents or the nuns at school. And yet when I was 5 years old I knew I was "different" from the other boys and that difference involved an attraction to other boys, their bodies, their demeanor, etc. I didn't knowwhat it was I wanted to do with other boys, or even what was possible, but the attraction was definitely there. Yet I knew enough to keep my feelings hidden because I looked around me and saw no one else expressing such feelings, or even that such feelings were possible. So, dk, no one "mentored " me into being gay. But you know what? I wish someone had. I wish someone (of good intent, of course) had taken me aside and told me my being gay was not a barrier to being a good, worthwhile citizen and that I was worthy of finding love and happiness like anybody else. It would have saved me years of misery and depression during adolescence attempting to "change" myself by getting involved in fundamentalist religion, dating girls when my heart wasn't really in it, culminating in a suicide attempt. Even after I came out in college, I could have benefitted from someone who told me to avoid the pitfalls of promiscuity, as so many young gay males of the late seventies did. So therefore, dk, this paranoid notion of gay predators is utter nonsense, and I speak from experience.
By the way, scigirl, in answer to your query about a 1981 study that said gay men have an average of 500 sex partners, that study was done by Bell, Weinberg and Hammersmith in a book called Homosexualities. It was based on subjects recruited from the patrons of bathhouses and backrooms in San Francisco in the late seventies. Well, what results do you expect when your sample consists of the most promiscuous subgroup in the most promiscuous era (remember, this was just before AIDS hit). To say this study is typical of gay men in general would be like saying NASCAR drivers at Daytona are typical of traffic in America!:banghead:

scigirl
August 7, 2003, 02:05 PM
Mike - thank you so much for your post, and sharing with us. Welcome to infidels!!

Also, thanks for providing the source for that "500 partner" statistic. I'll have to read up about it.

I just thought of another reason the anti-gay movement sucks. All those women that gay men date"to try and hide or get rid of their gayness - what happens to their psyche, their self-esteem?

scigirl

dk
August 7, 2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by scigirl
dk - I was referring to your comments about moslems, and the Europe labor crisis. Those were clearly off topic. Obviously your comments about the gay activist movement are relevant.

And once again - I already explained why I brought up the name Kinsey. Bobby was whining about how the Kinsey data was inaccurate. I agreed. I found new data. Why are you still arguing about the kinsey data with me? I did not bring up the Kinsey data - I brought up new data. Please read my posts.


How can you say that when you admitted to only reading the first part of my post?

queue - very interesting ideas - I'll have to think about those thoughts, and get back to you.

scigirl I have no idea why anyone would bring up Tony Blaire in this discussion, I certainly didn't.

I don't think you want 20 page gutting of your post, so please select the argument you think most substantial and I'll address it. On my part I'll read the rest.

scigirl
August 7, 2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by dk
I have no idea why anyone would bring up Tony Blaire in this discussion, I certainly didn't.
See dk this is one of your problems. You don't argue with the argument, you argue with your own little fantasy of what you think the argument is.

I did not mention Tony Blair. Anywhere.

I was referring to the comments you made, on this very page, right here (bold added by me):
Originally posted by dk:
Answer the questions..

Who protects Europe? Answer the US Military has for the last 40 years.

Why do Moslems migrate to Old Europe? Answer, Is it the will of Allah? No its because Europe needs a cheap labor to sustain their fruitless egotistical life style.

What will Europe do in 30 years with 1/2 of their geriatric population living off the government? Answer: I haven't a clue how the US or Europe will resolve the labor crisis. First they’ll probably sell it as a robot shortage, and an immigration problem. Maybe they’ll open hospices where infirm (old) people can be euphemized antiseptically. I wonder what kind of myths they’ll invent to purvey death as yet another final solution.
See - off topic and irrelevant to this thread. And you said it. In all fairness, you were referring to someone else's off topic comments as well. But I have seen this from you time and time and time again. It's annoying. Almost as your posting style. Use the quote function, that's what it's for!

I don't think you want 20 page gutting of your post, so please select the argument you think most substantial and I'll address it.
The whole thing. I'm a scientist. All the data is relevent here.

And yes I would rather read a 20 page "gutting" of my post, if you stay on the topic and you back up what you are saying with facts and relevant data.
On my part I'll read the rest.
That would be nice. Especially since you have taken to replying to my posts, it would be nice if you did actually read them in their entirety.

scigirl

TomboyMom
August 7, 2003, 05:28 PM
scigirl as usual rocks the house with her attractive intellect and integrity. Too bad she's straight.

Little perspective on "homosexual" statistics and analysis in general, from a lesbian point of view:

The great majority of statistics and studies on homosexual behavior cover male behavior only. Lesbians are truly the invisible minority.

Most gay male sexual behavior is as different from lesbian behavior as night and day. For example (no time to look up specific studies but) most studies find that gay men have many more sexual partners than lesbians. Why is this? At the risk of stating the obvious, gay men are men, and tend to act like men, if not more so, because there is not the limitation on their sexual behavior imposed by the necessity to find willing female partners. Lesbians are women, and tend to act like women, if not more so, because male sexual behavior is not imposed on them (as much.) And while men and women may be similar in many areas, such as potential ability to serve as president, the one area in which they differ greatly is sexuality, because the difference between men and women is sex.

One handy thing about this is that one can usually defeat any anti-gay argument based on statistics merely by requiring the proponent to include lesbians: little HIV risk, virtually no pedophilia, little promiscuity, etc. etc.

In general, I find that studies of homosexual behavior teach us more about gender differences than about differences between gay people and straight people. I find it helpful to keep this in mind when reviewing research on the subject.

Rene, lesbian, atheist, non-promiscuous, HIV free and not a pedophile.

scigirl
August 7, 2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by TomboyMom
scigirl as usual rocks the house with her attractive intellect and integrity. Too bad she's straight.
Heh, thanks TomboyMom! But you are already taken. . . . ;)

In general, I find that studies of homosexual behavior teach us more about gender differences than about differences between gay people and straight people.
Excellent excellent point. And since it is often straight men who are using these statistics to keep the gay men down, it makes you wonder why they aren't lobbying to simultaneously elevate the status of women. "Gay men have HIV more so we should deny them rights." Ok but by the same reasoning we should give lesbians extra rights!

Rene, lesbian, atheist, non-promiscuous, HIV free and not a pedophile.
You forgot kick-ass wife and mother! ;)

scigirl

dk
August 7, 2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by scigirl
See dk this is one of your problems. You don't argue with the argument, you argue with your own little fantasy of what you think the argument is.

scigirl I wasn't responding to your post, but Invader Taks post,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My country's prime minister announced yesterday that he would never support gay marriage because it undermines the survival of the species!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Wow, a leader dumber than Dubya
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(snip)
Originally posted by scigirl
The whole thing. I'm a scientist. All the data is relevent here.
And yes I would rather read a 20 page "gutting" of my post, if you stay on the topic and you back up what you are saying with facts and relevant data.

That would be nice. Especially since you have taken to replying to my posts, it would be nice if you did actually read them in their entirety.

I did respond to your post, to which your response is still nil. I'll respond piece meal as time permits to the rest, and would expect you to address my post, or ack you withdraw the arguments. I agree they are irrelavant, in your words. As a scientists I'm sure its obviously "All the data is relevent", contradicts your previous statement, "I think the previous 4 or 5 paragraphs of my argument are irrelevant". An honest mistake, and I just wanted to put your mind at ease, I have read your post.

scigirl
August 7, 2003, 06:03 PM
dk:
I did respond to your post, to which your response is still nil. I'll respond piece meal as time permits to the rest, and would expect you to address my post, or ack you withdraw the arguments.
Fair enough. I'll do that next.

I agree they are irrelavant, in your words.
Let me explain that further. The anti-gay movement wants to ban gay marriage. Bobby Dockery wants to ban gay marriage. Apparently he thinks that debunking statistics of how many people are gay is one way to support this ban. My point in addressing his myth number one was twofold:
1) I intended to show that Mr. Dockery was mis-representing the more recent Science article statistics, and twisting definitions with no valid basis for doing so.
2) I pointed out that, what difference does it make if gays make up 2% or 10% of the population, in terms of letting two consenting adults get married? That's why I thought it was irrelevant.

scigirl

conkermaniac
August 7, 2003, 07:05 PM
Exactly, scigirl. It seems that this Dockery guy is perverting the statistics to prove something totally different than the original intent. Who can't do that? For example, the stat about gays making a higher income and holding more managerial positions -- couldn't that also "prove" that gays are inherently smarter than heterosexuals? :rolleyes:

Here's something that many anti-gay activists may find interesting...I talked to a gay reverend a couple of months ago via e-mail. Since he was booted from the church, he has become a gay activist, has attended gay parades, and has spoken with many gays from all over America over e-mail or in person. I was surprised when he revealed that the majority of gay Americans are actually married Christians with children, just as he was before he "came out". They are just your average family Joe, nothing outstanding. That means your next door neighbor could be a homosexual, and so could your best friend...I wouldn't be surprised if a neo-McCarthy appeared soon.

scigirl
August 7, 2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by dk
Ok but I don’t understand why you want to brink Kinsey up.
We already addressed this ad nauseum. I didn't "bring up" Kinsey, I agreed with Mr. Dockery that the Kinsey statistics were not accurate. Instead, I showed how Mr. Dockery was mis-representing a newer and more accurate study of the gay and lesbian population.
If I’m not mistake it was Kinsey’s
See above.
You’re avoiding the substance of the criticism to focus on Abstract. If the criticism was supported and valid then it’s relevant and pertinent, so you need to address it.
Um, I addressed the abstract, and Mr. Dockery's interpretation of the abstract, at length.
Was Kinsey’s research flawed? (snip)
See above.
There is no empirical definition of homosexuality, and many inexplicable anomalies, contradictions and flaws in any attempt at a scientific definition.
You could say the exact same thing about heterosexuality. I agree that you can define homosexuality in several ways. There are people who perform homosexual acts, and people who express homosexual desires, and people who do both. I’m not surprised that it’s difficult to pin down a scientific definition of sexuality, because all human behaviors are extremely complex. Even gender is ambiguous, because of the way that the human reproductive tract evolved. Some people are born with both male and female internal or external genitalia.

So what?
Originally posted by dk
Homosexuality is more of an aesthetic media concoction than a psychological or biological theory.
Are you saying it’s all in the media’s head? That gay people aren’t really gay, it’s instead some cool NBC trick? I fail to see what your point is. Plus – how do you explain those people who were gay before the mass media existed?

I personally don’t know what it’s like to be gay. However, I have empirical data on what it’s like to be in a relationship, and I know how I act when I’m in one. I want to be around that person all the time, I think about him a lot, I enjoy when he calls me, etc. And lo and behold – my gay and lesbian friends act the exact same way when they are in a relationship. My friend Mike wants to be around Mark a lot, he is glad when Mark calls, etc. I have to take their word for it that their feelings are just as real as mine are for my boyfriend. The burden of proof is on you to prove that gay feelings are so different than straight feelings. And how exactly do you plan on proving that? What are you basing these opinions on, if you yourself are not in fact a homosexual, and refuse to take their word for it?
Is a man that loves to dominate, degrade and humiliate other men with anal sex a homosexual, of course not.
Maybe he is and maybe he isn't. I would have to ask him. Just like a man who rapes a woman may or may not be a heterosexual. I'd have to look at his past history to ascertain that, since rape and sex within a relationship are clearly not the same type of act - as you helpfully pointed out.

Because such a representation of homosexuality would be aesthetically ugly.
Anyone who dominates, degrades, or humiliates other people is acting in an immoral fashion. For instance, when you degrade and humiliate gays and lesbians by equating their love for one another with pedophilia or rape. That’s disgusting as well.

So, if the media and social scientists want to make homosexuality appealing they exclude what’s ugly and emphasize what’s pleasing or at least not revolting.
No one is pretending that they don’t have anal sex. But – heterosexuals also have anal sex, and lesbians do not. Also, vaginal sex, and oral sex between heteros, is kind of gross if you really think about it. So guess what – I don’t sit around all day and think about where people’s penises and clits go. I have better things to do with my time.

Did you know that the penis, the organ of love that carries God’s special seed, also carries piss? Isn’t that just as gross? How about the fact that we kiss with our mouths but sometimes we throw up nasty vomit out of the same orifice? OOOOH gross, you better not kiss anymore.

If anal grosses you out, don’t do it.

Focusing on the actual sex acts like you do all the time, and disregarding the fact that homosexuals are indeed humans with feelings, is extremely revolting and disgusting.

I surprised a bright person like you hasn’t figured this out
If I ever “figure out” what the hell you are talking about, I think that either qualifies me for sainthood or the insane asylum.

I’ll tell you why. Men are intensely aroused by visual stimuli, while women tend to be aroused by emotional, intellectual and physical intimacy.
Nice sweeping generalization. So what?
In effect men as sexual creatures tend to be more detached from the person with whom they copulate, i.e. more promiscuous.
Perhaps. So what? Why aren’t you arguing for less rights for men in general then, instead of just less rights for gay guys? And more rights for women, and lesbians? You are being inconsistent.
I’ve known heterosexuals so messed up they regarded sex with their wife as a chore or duty, and sex with prostituted or complete stranger as satisfying.
So? What does that have to do with gay and lesbian discrimination?
Men are more promiscuous because they are aroused visually.
Proof? Are things true just because you say them?
Why are women so rarely rapists, pedophiles or ephebophiles?
I don’t know why. Start a new thread if you want to talk about that. This thread is about gay and lesbian discrimination.
I agree. The real issue is… What happens when politics and science collide?
Did you have a point with this extremely vague statement? Politics and science need not collide. Science should be a tool that everyone uses to reveal the facts, then politicians can go from there. What is currently happening? Politicians are making decisions from an irrational base, and from religious rhetoric. But clearly not from good solid data.
I’ll give you a reliable unbiased source, read And the Band Play On.
I’ve seen the movie, but I haven’t read the book. What is your point with this statement? Please be more specific.
Clearly GaysBILesbians(GBL) want stable loving families. So do adulators, pedophiles, emobophiles, rapists, murders, perjurers, drug addicts, alcoholics... What’s your point?
I wasn’t saying that they wanted stable loving families. I was quoting scientific studies which illustrated that they provide stable loving families for children. The rest of your post is irrelevant.
It tells us AIDs changed Gay behavior. When HAART treatments came out HIV prevalence report indicated gays backslide, and some even celebrated publicly by riding one another bareback.
Um, no it didn’t. You reproduced the words of the study, but did you read them? Here I’ll quote the conclusion again:
From PubMed:
The results show that some changes in sexual practice may have occurred among homosexual men in general in the period from 1987 to 1992, and that more significant changes may have occurred for HIV-positive men. The present data do not support other findings of a relapse to more unsafe sex
Women are naturally less promiscuous than men,
Again, if women are less promiscuous than men, than why aren’t you supporting legislation that denies men basic rights, instead of just gay men? Could it be because you are being an inconsistent bigot again? Yeah, I think so.
and AIDs moved them to become more selective in the choice of intimate partners. The real story is about the young gay protégés infected by gay mentors liberated by HAART treatments
That’s not what this study said. And I’ve been following the other thread that you claim this statistic, and I am unconvinced. You haven’t backed up that statement with any solid data whatsoever.

And even if it’s true, what does that have to do with the rights of adult gays and lesbians to get married? If anything, encouraging gays to get married, and accepting their relationships as normal, would encourage less promiscuous behavior.
Hey, I think you have a point. Lesbians should start a Lesbian Rights Movement for two primary reasons, 1) MTCT HIV babies, can virtually eliminate the tragedy with mandatory testing of at risk women. 2) Women are exposed by IDU and Bi men protected by the Gay and BI leadership under the shadow of penumbra privacy rights.
What are you talking about? What is MTCT? What is IDU? And yes according to your own weird rationale, you should be all for lesbian rights, since all your “data” and disgust apparently, deals with men having sex with men, and the promiscuity of men.

scigirl

Groovy Cosmic Monkey
August 7, 2003, 08:42 PM
dk,

Hey, don't worry your pretty little head over it

Ah yes, I'm gay so I must be a ditzy pretty boy.

your Prime Minister is a homophobe.

Indeed.

If Europe is so overpopulated then why have they been forced to use ARAB cheap labor to sustain you're standard of living. More important whose going support the baby boomers when they hit retirement?

First of all, I'm from Australia, not Europe. Secondly, the argument is stupid for a number of reasons:

1) Keeping gay marriages illegal won't contribute to the survival of the species because homosexuals are going to have relationships with one another regardless.

2) If anything, keeping gay marriage illegal and therefore perpetuating homophobic bigotry will only contribute to gay people feeling like they have to have heterosexual marriages just to keep up the guise that they're straight. Is this really a desireable outcome?

3) Contraceptives don't contribute to the survival of the species. Neither do infertile couples, or married couples that have no intention of procreating. Should contraception be criminalised? And should couples who marry be forced to have children?

4) Legalising gay marriages won't suddenly slow down the birthrate, because people who are heterosexual aren't going to abandon their sexuality and "become" gay just to be trendy. At least, this sort of occurrence would be very rare.

scigirl
August 7, 2003, 08:54 PM
Groovy Cosmic Monkey,

Good points! Also I would add - gays and lesbians do in fact produce offspring. Tomboy mom, for example, is a lesbian with three children.

scigirl

Gurdur
August 7, 2003, 09:00 PM
All self-edited out because of being off-topic. Oh well.

scigirl
August 7, 2003, 09:52 PM
Oh man I missed a good Gurdur debunking? Scigirl pouts. Oh well I'm sure they'll be another. . . ;)

scigirl
August 8, 2003, 12:38 PM
dk – after posting my reply to you, I went on a run (only 1.5 miles, not very far) and I had some more ideas about this debate.

We are going to try something called “a case study.” Case studies are a common and effective teaching method in medical school. Instead of talking about hypothetical diseases, or issues, we discuss real patients (usually with the names changed to initials to protect the anonymity of the patient).

Let’s try it. Here’s your theory about the cause of homosexuality:
Originally posted by dk:
Homosexuality is more of an aesthetic media concoction than a psychological or biological theory.
As a side note, I want to see the exact methodology you used to come to this conclusion. In addition, could you speculate what is the media’s motivation for doing such a thing? Wouldn’t there have to be some real strongly motivated homosexuals in the first place to pull off such an action? And then where did those gay people come from?

Here’s my theory:
scigirl's theory:
Homosexuality is both psychological and biological in nature. Psychologically, homosexual feelings are no different from heterosexual feelings.

I’ll give you my methodology for how I came up with my theory. First, I got educated in biology (bachelors and masters in a biological field, currently in medical school, and well-read in the subject of biological sexuality). Second, I have compared my own heterosexual relationships to homosexual relationships. This comparison was done in two ways. I not only asked homosexuals about their feelings when in a relationship (and found no obvious differences to my own feelings for my boyfriend) but I also observed both gays and lesbians in a relationship (and again, found no obvious differences in the behaviors compared to my behavior when in a relationship.)

Your turn – please tell me how you came up with your aesthetic media idea.

Ok let’s do the case study using Mike in NC’s post which he so graciously provided us, and see whose theory is supported by his history.
Mike in NC:
Let me tell you a little about myself. I am a 45 yo gay male, Catholic upbringing, southern by birth. I was told nothing about sex by either my parents or the nuns at school. And yet when I was 5 years old I knew I was "different" from the other boys and that difference involved an attraction to other boys, their bodies, their demeanor, etc.
The fact that he knew he was different at 5 years old seems to point to a biological reason for the homosexual attraction rather than a media influence. However, we would need to know more data to ascertain this fact. Mike, if you are still reading, could you kindly tell us how much TV/newspaper/radio you were exposed to as a child, and also how much of it was “shows on how to turn 5-year-olds into gay men?” Thanks a bunch!

My own experience: I remember thinking boys were “cute” at about age 5. Now I doubt I wanted to have sex with them, because I had no idea what sex was at that age. But I definitely knew that my feelings were different for the boys in my class than the girls. This fact tends to support my theory that homosexual and heterosexual feelings are similar.

Oh and my media exposure was pretty low since we never had cable. I did grow up on a lot of 60’s rock, however, and occasionally watched The Young and the Restless since that’s my mom’s soap.
Mike in NC:
I didn't know what it was I wanted to do with other boys, or even what was possible, but the attraction was definitely there. Yet I knew enough to keep my feelings hidden because I looked around me and saw no one else expressing such feelings, or even that such feelings were possible. So, dk, no one "mentored” me into being gay.
A direct refutation of your mentoring theory. Care to comment? Is Mike a strange exception to your mentoring theory, or is he just lying?

It would have saved me years of misery and depression during adolescence attempting to "change" myself by getting involved in fundamentalist religion, dating girls when my heart wasn't really in it, culminating in a suicide attempt.
Since Mike’s homosexual feelings caused him so much distress, it seems that if they were just put there by the media, it would have been easier to overcome them and just go straight.

For my experience, although I have never personally tried to overcome my heterosexual feelings, I feel that they are engrained in me and I would have a very difficult time becoming a lesbian. That is, unless it’s Gwen Stefani (http://www.trappedinabox.com/). ;)

I don’t see any evidence in Mike’s history that indicates that his feelings are simply a result of an overzealous media, rather than being a deep-seated biological/psychological desire that has been present since near birth.

So let’s hear it dk. Why does his story seem to fit my theory rather than yours?

scigirl

P.S. Thanks a bunch Mike for letting my use your post - I hope that's ok!

Gurdur
August 8, 2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by scigirl

Oh man I missed a good Gurdur debunking? .... Well, yes, but it was a debunking of off-topic allegations made by dk --- and after I posted, I then noticed your post where you stated you wanted this thread to remain on-topic, so I went back and edited all my remarks out.

Maybe just as well, since a strong recommendation for interventionist Stelazine and long-term Thorazine was among my remarks.
:cool:

scigirl
August 8, 2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Gurdur
Maybe just as well, since a strong recommendation for interventionist Stelazine and long-term Thorazine was among my remarks.
Ha ha!

lpetrich
August 8, 2003, 02:40 PM
Gurdur, I suggest that you create a thread that will contain your dk debunking; I'd love to see it.

I wonder where that guy comes from ideologically. Where does he get his ideas from and why does he treat them as an all-encompassing system? I also notice that he projects an all-encompassing-system status onto other ideas and ideologies. Like his linking of evolutionary biology with Social Darwinism (more properly called Social Spencerism).

Gurdur
August 8, 2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by lpetrich

Gurdur, I suggest that you create a thread that will contain your dk debunking; I'd love to see it.


I thank you deeply and am honoured, :notworthy, but at the moment I am in a grumpy mood, and currently have trouble not using such words as "rectum", "head", and "autoerotically fallacious Mustela nivalis person" in my posts. I live enough on the edge here as it is without succumbing to the temptations of the moment.

dk
August 8, 2003, 05:02 PM
scigirl: We already addressed this ad nauseum. I didn't "bring up" Kinsey, I agreed with Mr. Dockery that the Kinsey statistics were not accurate. Instead, I showed how Mr. Dockery was mis-representing a newer and more accurate study of the gay and lesbian population.
dk: I know, maybe we can find synthetic estimation survey of homosexuals There’s a dearth of empirical evidence from any reliable source to support anyone’s definition of homosexuality.
(snip)

dk: There is no empirical definition of homosexuality, and many inexplicable anomalies, contradictions and flaws in any attempt at a scientific definition.
scigirl: You could say the exact same thing about heterosexuality. I agree that you can define homosexuality in several ways. There are people who perform homosexual acts, and people who express homosexual desires, and people who do both. I’m not surprised that it’s difficult to pin down a scientific definition of sexuality, because all human behaviors are extremely complex. Even gender is ambiguous, because of the way that the human reproductive tract evolved. Some people are born with both male and female internal or external genitalia.
dk: Both terms were coined by Freud as an integral parts of his novel theory of psychoanalysis. Freud taught neurotic behavior had a purpose i.e. was goal orientated. This empowered analysts (known today as psychoanalysts) to deduce from behavior the underling purpose, then (in theory) cure the neurosis by treating the underlying problem. People genuinely liked the idea, and psychoanalysts became the media darlings of the 1st half of the 20th Century. Alas, Freud also described women as castrated boys, and men as repressed Oedipus fixated incestuous patriarchs, which nobody found aesthetic. So other more attractive theories were concocted and modularized to supplant Freud’s speculations. None of Freud’s theory was supported by a smidgen of empirical evidence. Freud’s new science was popularized by a new movie industry that titillated the viewing public with tails about monsters that hide deep in the subconscious mind, coiled to pounce upon their unsuspecting victims. Movie viewers not only packed the theaters but lined up in droves to have their inner demons purged on the couches of psychoanalysts. Alas the results of psychoanalytical therapy proved as wanting as the movies entertaining. A matured movie industry (busted monopoly) in the second half of the 20th Century then memorized the pubic with the horrors of mental health system run by psychotic doctors and sadistic nurses that murdered, tortured and mutilated patients with sadistic glee. I agree the terms homosexual and heterosexual are meaningless or misinformed in any empirical sense. They are a product of our cultural fascination with movies, science and psychology.

scigirl: So what?
dk: My point is quite simple, without consensus amongst the scientific community or consensus on what counts as a homosexual and heterosexual, this line of discussion becomes an exercise in futility. The only possible conclusion requires us to dismiss these ill defined flawed surveys as meaningless, and condemn anyone that presents them under the guise of science for political gain in today’s cultural war. As for