A Hindu View of Islam

[River]

http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15052001/sign.htm

[hinduwoman]

the problem is that no one except muslims seem to have heard of Ved Prakash and his book does not seem to be available anywhere.
We already dealt with this topic in detail Rivers.

[premjan]

There is an interesting inversion between Hinduism and Islam. Hinduism is the first of the Indic religions, and Islam is the last of the Semitic religions. Hinduism claims to include all the succeeding Indic religions within it. Islam claims to accommodate all its predecessors within it. So Hinduism-Islam is a fundamental dualism in philosophy or religion. Islam claims to be the final religion of God while Hinduism claims to be the original religion of God. Hinduism seems to deal principally with individual salvation and Islam primarily with the salvation of the human collective.

I find it very interesting (and somehow likely or fitting) that the Vedas would have mentioned Muhammad. The only challenge in modern times is to marry the opposing prescriptions of Hinduism and Islam together. I think Hinduism should be seen as a collection of varying means for individual salvation, and Islam as the best means for collective salvation.

The difference between Hinduism in its Vedic form and Islam or the Semitic creeds probably has to do with the animals they herded. Hindus were primarily cattle herders, while the Semites were primarily herders of goats, sheep and camels.

Plus Hinduism has flowered after the changeover from the nomadic lifestyle to agriculturalism. While Islamic societies have in many cases, retained their essentially nomadic character, there not being enough water to perform full-scale agriculture. Hinduism favors nature-worship, while the Semitic creeds favor worship of an active, planful creator God. Hinduism includes even the atheistic philosophy of Buddhism within it, while the Semitic creeds claim that denying God is one of the basic heresies (though, interestingly, Jesus claims that all can be forgiven man, except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit). Perhaps the spirit is the connection between all of these religious ideas. The journey of the spirit as it moves towards its final destination is different in each case. In Buddhism, it vanishes into the vacuum from whence it came. In Islam, it awaits the afterlife for an eternity of sensual celebration in heaven.

[aatayyab]

hi, i am a muslim and live in pakistan. never had any permanent opportunity to live with hindus. however, i had interacted with hindus in malaysia and saudi arabia and found them very soft, nice and good to me. so, i don't see hindus as bad as usually branded by various muslim scholars or leaders.

[salyed]

So Hinduism-Islam is a fundamental dualism in philosophy or religion. Islam claims to be the final religion of God while Hinduism claims to be the original religion of God. Hinduism seems to deal principally with individual salvation and Islam primarily with the salvation of the human collective.I find it very interesting (and somehow likely or fitting) that the Vedas would have mentioned Muhammad. The only challenge in modern times is to marry the opposing prescriptions of Hinduism and Islam together.

The marriage of Hinduism and Islam has already been done. It is called Sikhism (individual members are called Sikhs) and their holy book is the Adi Granth or the Guru Granth Sahib. The founder was Guru Nanak. Sikhs were portrayed in the film "Bend It Like Beckham".

David

[Sturmrabe]

hi, i am a muslim and live in pakistan. never had any permanent opportunity to live with hindus. however, i had interacted with hindus in malaysia and saudi arabia and found them very soft, nice and good to me. so, i don't see hindus as bad as usually branded by various muslim scholars or leaders.
mmmmmmm hindus are soft and nice... and tasty! :p

[Yeshi]

i don't see hindus as bad as usually branded by various muslim scholars or leaders.

The problem is, that Koran specially mentions that the Muslims should show respect towards Christians and Hebrews, but NONE towards Idol-Worshippers - under which they probably mean Hindu and Buddhist religions.

IMO, these issues, plus the Koran regulations on treating womenfolk practically as domestic animals with much less rights then males makes it for very primitive intolerant and outright barbaric (medieval) religion. Implementing rulesets from 7th century and having therefore public stonings of ALLEGED adulterous wifes in, for example, Saudi Arabia - is abhorrent.

[River]

The problem is, that Koran specially mentions that the Muslims should show respect towards Christians and Hebrews, but NONE towards Idol-Worshippers - under which they probably mean Hindu and Buddhist religions.

IMO, these issues, plus the Koran regulations on treating womenfolk practically as domestic animals with much less rights then males makes it for very primitive intolerant and outright barbaric (medieval) religion. Implementing rulesets from 7th century and having therefore public stonings of ALLEGED adulterous wifes in, for example, Saudi Arabia - is abhorrent.

It depends how you define "idols".

"idols" are/can be celebrities, patriotism, Darwinism, blind faith, blind science and Egoism.

The second statement that you interjected is outright false. For more information on women in Islam ask a Muslim woman ( I'm sure you've seen them , some wear hijab, and some don't).

[lpetrich]

It depends how you define "idols".

"idols" are/can be celebrities, patriotism, Darwinism, blind faith, blind science and Egoism.
Says who, River?

The Koran is very plain about how non-Abrahamic religions are "idolatry" -- statue-worship. And Muslims have often been very averse to anything that smacks of idolatry.

And I'm surprised that Muslim apologists have not been trying to deduce biological evolution (descent with modification) from the Koran.

The second statement that you interjected is outright false. For more information on women in Islam ask a Muslim woman ( I'm sure you've seen them , some wear hijab, and some don't).
However, hijab is considered a mandate of Islam by many Muslims, meaning that either they or non-hijab Muslims must be wrong.

And where are the female mullahs?

Many other religions have female professionals, why not Islam?

And the freethought communisty has had numerous notable women; most recently, consider this bboard. Consider its mods and admins. And consider the author of the Nutwatches (http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~asmodean/nutwatch/) -- who sometimes gets pestered to do another one.

[Yeshi]

The second statement that you interjected is outright false. For more information on women in Islam ask a Muslim woman ( I'm sure you've seen them , some wear hijab, and some don't).

Maybe false for your blended eyes, but that is what i could deduce from reading Koran, speaking to many muslim womenfolk, and close friends that lived there for years and witnessed public executions of women in Saudi Arabia.

When i see that muslim women are trained since childhood to serve males without questioning, being deliberately stupefied and cut off from any social contacts and they are treated as property, and have no rights to go to schools, then it is against even the UN CHARTA of human rights.

I know this issues firsthand from Bosnia and Kosovo, so no need to throw sand in the eyes.

[River]

I know this issues firsthand from Bosnia and Kosovo, so no need to throw sand in the eyes.

Perhaps this is so based on your experience....and I am in no way throwing sand in anyone's eyes.......but the vast majority of "viewers" have a great difficulty separating cultural overtones , from religion and politics, which inevitably may become intertwined despite......Thus, many are confused about the process of cause and effect.

[River]

When i see that muslim women are trained since childhood to serve males without questioning, being deliberately stupefied and ..



Do you remember that the Holy Prophet Muhammad's wife Khadija was 20 years his elder and was at a greater financial and economic position than he.....

[River]

Says who, River?

The Koran is very plain about how non-Abrahamic religions are "idolatry" -- statue-worship. And Muslims have often been very averse to anything that smacks of idolatry.





However, a large number of Hindu adherents do perceive "Hinduism" as a Monotheistic relgion with the statues and molded "deities" as nothing more than symbols or "attributes" of the One and Only Lord of the Universe(s). This is akin in some ways to the Qur'anic concept of 99 Names or divine "attributes" of G-d.

[Yeshi]

Do you remember that the Holy Prophet Muhammad's wife Khadija was 20 years his elder and was at a greater financial and economic position than he.....

Well, the good examples do not diminish the overall religious and cultural impact upon the lives on MAJORITY of womenfolk living in muslim states.
Just remember the beatings of women in Afghanistan for showing inadvertedly their ankle(s) on the market.

In comparison with Albania and Bosnia, i am afraid the life of women is much harder in places like Afghanistan and Pakistan, etc.

And the religious scripture (Koran) is the one that imposed those differences between males and females. So the results in practice are stemming from that religious advices in holy book.

And those are, as i mentioned, below par with established human rights in the UN Charta of rights. We have palestinian female acquainances who were very sad to tell us their brothers and family forbids them from studying further (although they show great promise scientifically) as it is their custom that girls should not be learned or follow own career.

This is a devastating issue for anyone who lives in societies formed after the European age of Enlightenment (Reneissance, etc).

Sad.

[Chris Weimer]

one qualm (of many) River: testimony - two men will suffice, but if you only have one man than two extra women will suffice. Reason being - one might forget and the other would have to remind her. :rolling:

[River]

Well, the good examples do not diminish the overall religious and cultural impact upon the lives on MAJORITY of womenfolk living in muslim states.
Just remember the beatings of women in Afghanistan for showing inadvertedly their ankle(s) on the market.



Yes, but this is the unfortunate exploitation conducted by the collective patriarchal cultures of the world. It is not Islam. Islam/ Religion takes the blame because it is readily available albeit scarcely accessible.

[lpetrich]

Yes, but this is the unfortunate exploitation conducted by the collective patriarchal cultures of the world. It is not Islam. Islam/ Religion takes the blame because it is readily available albeit scarcely accessible.
However, this misogyny is presented as Islamic principle. So why isn't this fake Islam given the uprooting that it deserves?

And River, you have not answered the question of where are all the female Islamic religious leaders -- mullahs and imams and so forth. If Islam is such a feminist religion, then it ought to have lots of female religious leaders.

[River]

And River, you have not answered the question of where are all the female Islamic religious leaders -- mullahs and imams and so forth.



Maybe oneday it will. For the time being there are several female leaders amongst some Sufi Islamic Orders.

[Yeshi]

Yes, but this is the unfortunate exploitation conducted by the collective patriarchal cultures of the world. It is not Islam. Islam/ Religion takes the blame because it is readily available albeit scarcely accessible.

Yes, i might agree with this position.
But it is also akin to chicken-egg problem itself: what was first.

Would you know if Koran itself describes the necessity for women to wear burka/chador/bula/(what is the dark hiding cloth called?) that hides their faces from the rest of the world? Or is it later or earlier device that protects the owner's property?

For the advancement of the human race, the hiding of woman before marriage/reproduction is certainly detrimantal, as the very laws of choosing the mate by hers positive characteristics is impossible, and so you can propagate cripples, ugliness, physical deformations, etc.

There were also studies that purported that hiding of girls from boys population makes the incidence of homosexualism higher, in effect introducing more pathological deformations into the society then statistically present.

[River]

Would you know if Koran itself describes the necessity for women to wear burka/chador/bula/(what is the dark hiding cloth called?) that hides their faces from the rest of the world? Or is it later or earlier device that protects the owner's property?
.


The Niqa ( covers the whole face except the eyes) is not promoted in the Qur'an. The Hijab ( covers the hair and not the face), also worn by the Virgin Mary and the early Jewish community may or may not be mandated by the Qur'an. Some scholars have suggested that the Hijab was only mandated for Prophet Muhammad's wives, specifically for they would become the example and ideal for mankind....and it was also worn by Virgin Mary, whom the Qur'an gives the title " Mother of All Nations". So these scholars suggest that the donning of the Hijab is not mandatory but instead recommended... for G-d chose Mary as the Symbol and example of Chastity and Purity....However, other scholars argue the contrary..believing that veiling was always mandatory . I am under the impression that the Hijab is NOT mandatory . It appears to me that Muslims simply adopted the customs of their Jewish predecessors....though it seems more cultural to me....than religious.

[premjan]

The marriage of Hinduism and Islam has already been done. It is called Sikhism (individual members are called Sikhs) and their holy book is the Adi Granth or the Guru Granth Sahib. The founder was Guru Nanak. Sikhs were portrayed in the film "Bend It Like Beckham".
David

The Adi Granth is a collection of relatively disparate sayings, hardly with the same poetic/prophetic/divine authority as the Koran (not as focussed in a sense). Sikhism is a good average between Hinduism and Islam but it cannot cause the demise of either one. Plus God is not named in Sikhism (just called the "true name") which is not the case in Islam.


1 OM
True Name
Agent, Supreme
Without fear, Without Hatred
Timeless Form, Unborn
Through the Guru's Grace

True in the beginning, True when time began,
True now also, Nanak, and it will be True.


The first verses of the Adi Granth (beginning with OM -- the shabda Brahma) clearly show its greater affinity with the Vedanta than with the Koran. I doubt the stuff in the Semitic scriptures is generally as poetical / vague / mystically inspired as those in the Indian scriptures.

[Yeshi]

From the formulation that premjan wrote "om.." one could discern that the notion of the highest principle (G-d) is a fully transcendent one.

I am not aware as to how transcendent is Allah in Islam, but if that is the case, them he/it is much nearer to Buddhism and old vedas like RgVeda (there was some discussion on it in the thread on self-created being, think in philosophy forum).

The personification of G-d with a beard and willful impulses came much later - or earlier through Moses etc.
It can be argued that the old testament god of the Bible is a jelous and volatile being, requesting blood sacrifices and sometimes destroying whole populations. Not sure if Allah of Kuran does such terrible feats as well?

[River]

And where are the female mullahs?

Many other religions have female professionals, why not Islam?




There are female imams in China.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3656180.stm

I don't know what you are talking about ......as the vast majority of Muslim females I know are Economists, Physicians, Engineers, and Psychologists.

[River]

From the formulation that premjan wrote "om.." one could discern that the notion of the highest principle (G-d) is a fully transcendent one.




The Islamic concept of Allah [ YHWH] ..... both the Eastern/Vedantic notion of G-d and the Western notion of G-d found in OT and NT. Allah is both transcendent (tanzih) and immanent (tashbih). He has metaphysical non-human characteristics of Wrath and Mercy, though he states in his Book that his Mercy will predominate over his Wrath according to his Will.

[River]

Many other religions have female professionals, why not Islam?





Muslim countries such as Indonesia, Pakistan and Bangladesh has had numerous female Presidents and Prime Ministers. It is quite shocking that the greatest Western nation in the World , the United States of America has never had......... :down:

[lpetrich]

I should have made it clearer and stated "female religious professionals" -- priests, clergypeople, rabbis, imams, whatever. My question is: where are the female ones of these in Islam?

As to female leaders of Islamic countries, that's all well and good, but several of them seem to have gotten there by a sort of dynastic succession, being helped to power by being the wives or daughters of earlier leaders.

Pakistan: Benazir Bhutto, daughter of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto
Indonesia: Megawati Sukarnoputri, daughter of Sukarno
Bangladesh: Khaleda Zia, wife of Ziaur Ali Rahman

This happens outside of Islamic countries as well:

India: Indira Gandhi, daughter of Jawaharlal Nehru
Sri Lanka: Sirimavo Bandaranaike, wife of Solomon Bandaranaike
Sri Lanka: Chandrika Kumaratunga, daughter of Sirimavo Bandaranaike

So which Islamic-country female leaders have come to power without having such dynastic connections? Those I know of from elsewhere are Golda Meir of Israel and Margaret Thatcher of the UK; I'm sure that there have been others in recent decades, but I'm too lazy to do a lot of searching.

And having a woman on top is not enough; one must be concerned about women in the rest of society.

[River]

So which Islamic-country female leaders have come to power without having such dynastic connections?
.


What a silly way of evading the previous inquiries you made.

Indeed there are Muslim female professionals and Imams ( as indicated by the BBC report on Chinese Muslims).

Now you state cough cough...without dynastic connections...cough cough...

:rolling:

[River]

I should have made it clearer and stated "female religious professionals" -- priests, clergypeople, rabbis, imams, whatever. My question is: where are the female ones of these in Islam?

.


LOL, there are no rabbis and priests in Islam. Rabbis are of Judaism and Priests are of Christianity. Since you are a little confused let me explain further....you will see that the dalai lama exists only in Buddhism....not Islam...because it is the conditions of Buddhism that require it.

[River]

.... imams, whatever. My question is: where are the female ones of these in Islam?





I think you missed it the first time. [either intentionally or unintentionally]

Chinese female imams

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3656180.stm

[River]

And having a woman on top is not enough...




I'm not sure what you mean here. As I have given many examples before.

[premjan]

So which Islamic-country female leaders have come to power without having such dynastic connections? Those I know of from elsewhere are Golda Meir of Israel and Margaret Thatcher of the UK; I'm sure that there have been others in recent decades, but I'm too lazy to do a lot of searching.


Turkey (quasi-Islamic)
Philippines (non-Islamic).

Some others in Europe.

Having a woman on top is not enough. She has to do a good job too. Women got thrown out of their job for doing it badly in several cases.

[lpetrich]

It's all well and good for women to become leaders, but what might that do for the rest of society?

I make the qualification of dynastic succession, because that is the main way that women have become national leaders over the centuries -- which they have done as far back as Pharaonic Egypt, whose best-known queen was Hatshepsut, of the 18th Dynasty, back in the 1500's BCE. More recently, England has had Queens Elizabeth I, Victoria, and Elizabeth II, and how much did they ever do for the women of England?

It is not enough for women to become leaders, especially not by dynastic succession; women have to do well in the rest of society, which why I asked where were the female Muslim religious leaders, whatever they might be called. Come to think of it "religious leader" may be a better term than "religious professional".

And if women can do well in the rest of society, then they can become non-dynastic leaders, as several women have done in recent decades.

I recall someone who looked at the gender composition of foreign-exchange students from various places. Usually about 10% or thereabouts female, but strict Islamic countries usually have much less than that.

[hinduwoman]

So chinese muslims have imams. A group of women in India set up a masjid as well.

BUT the interesting thing is female imams are present only in kafr countries. So what is wrong with muslim dominates countries that they have no female mullahs or imams to lead prayers and issue fatwas?

[River]

So chinese muslims have imams. A group of women in India set up a masjid as well.

BUT the interesting thing is female imams are present only in kafr countries. So what is wrong with muslim dominates countries that they have no female mullahs or imams to lead prayers and issue fatwas?


The Prophet (pbuh) certainly did NOT think that China is a "kafr" country.


Prophet Muhammad: " Seek knowledge even as far as China".

[lpetrich]

The Prophet (pbuh) certainly did NOT think that China is a "kafr" country.

Prophet Muhammad: " Seek knowledge even as far as China".
Absurd "interpretation".

Islam and Christianity have been minority beliefs there for as long as they have been present; the main belief systems in China are:

Polytheist / idolatrous:
Chinese "folk religion"; popular forms of Buddhism and Taoism

Not much different from atheism:
Confucianism
Philosophical Buddhism
Philosophical Taoism

Explicitly atheist:
Marxism

So China is essentially kufr.

[River]

no, lpetrich

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has repeatedly stated that the whole Earth is Muslim and the difference between other religions and ours (Islamic Ummah) is that G-d has made the whole of the Earth , our "Masjid" or place of worship.

[lpetrich]

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has repeatedly stated that the whole Earth is Muslim and the difference between other religions and ours (Islamic Ummah) is that G-d has made the whole of the Earth , our "Masjid" or place of worship.
Where did he say that?

And if that's so, how would anyone count as kufr?

[River]

The Messenger of Allah – (Sal Allaahu Alayhi wa Sallam )– said, “The earth was made for me a MASJID (i.e. a place to pray), pure.� – Bukhari.

[River]

Due to time-coordinated restraints as well as independent academic research beyond this thread, I am personally retiring myself from this thread for an indefinite period of time. I thank you for participating in this thread .......

--River
ON HIATUS

[zog]

In my opinion (not that anyone asked) This whole debate about the relative positions of women in Islamic societies is very over simplified, as it fails to take into account the nature of these socieites (to a certain extent irrespective of religion) in which women are pushed into a subsidiary role as occured in most pre-modern societies. Remember that the emancipation of women has been a phenomana of western industrialised (not to mention largely secular) countries, and really it is a very recent (when one considers the usually glacial rate of social change) in the developing world.

So treat religion as a factor in exacebating the position of women but not as the exclusive one.

[hinduwoman]

Yes Zog. But when a religion claims that it gives women unparallelled freedom and respects her, then we would do well to look at the actual teachings of the scriptures and how women are treated in these societies.

[premjan]

Yes Zog. But when a religion claims that it gives women unparallelled freedom and respects her, then we would do well to look at the actual teachings of the scriptures and how women are treated in these societies.

yes, people who protest overmuch about freedom, respect and equality (or the existence of God!) ought to be scrutinized carefully.