In Love With a Christian Girl

[chanoc]

We meet on http://www.emode.com . We get along fantastic. There is so much we talk about. I am an Atheist, and a Web geek (still a student, will be for the next ten years). She's a government computer programmer (cobalt sp?), and a Christian. Although we are at odds about Jebus and Dog, it does not come between us (quite amazing). I must admit she is about as liberal as me about sex, and that's a good thing. ;)
What amazes me is that just last week I thought a relationship between a Theist and an Atheist was not possible-- I am wrong, and proud to admit my inadvertently misguided thought process. Life is full of astonishments . :)
My question: Although I have seen it come up in many threads, are there any long-term mixed believe relationships amongst us Free Thinkers?

[nogods4me]

COBOL? Did you say she programs in COBOL? good grief, my academic training was in COBOL but I didn't think anyone was still using it. Where does she work? Is it all jsut maintaing legacy code?

Sorry for not staying on topic. My GF is sort of a wishy-washy new-agey kind of theist. Though she has said to me on more than one occaision that she wishes she could be a non-believer like me :D , so there is hope.

[Barcode]

I wish I could say in my experience things work out, but it seems I've split up with my (practising) Catholic girlfriend because our differences are too great in the religious/spiritual sense.

And now I'm stuck at hers in Portugal, whilst we try and work things out ....

Sometimes, it depends on the *degree* to which one is involved in it. I stuck it out for four months being told things like " God is my centre " and " God loves me more than anybody else could " and it finally begun to grate .... depends if you don't mind this line of thinking or being second place to a fictitious entity that they have invented in their own imagination ....

I wish you the best. Sorry I couldn't be more optimistic :confused:

*is now going back to resume battle with my (ex??) girlfriend in the next room ..... and hope we work something out*

[Viti]

Chanoc, many atheist/theist relationships are great during dating, but the problems seem to start up when long term committment/marriage comes up, then again when children are discussed. Think about these scenarios (looking way ahead) and decide how willing you would be to compromise. These are some things I have actually heard about happening and of course may not apply in your situation

She wants a church wedding. Maybe the church requires pre-wedding counseling sessions with the minister OR requires you to be a member or baptized or something.

She wants you to attend church every Sunday with her

She wants to raise the children Christian or insists they go to Sunday School, VBS, etc.

She doesn't accept evolution and wants to teach creationism to the children or she insists on teaching them about eternal hellfire damnation so they become scared for YOU. This can be emotionally wrenching for a child

She is actively anti-homosexual, anti-abortion, politically extreme right wing or maintains some other stance you find offensive

[chanoc]

Chanoc, many atheist/theist relationships are great during dating, but the problems seem to start up when long-term commitment/marriage comes up, then again when children are discussed. Think about these scenarios (looking way ahead) and decide how willing you would be to compromise. These are some things I have actually heard about happening and of course may not apply in your situation

I have thought about these scenarios. For instance, I think it highly appropriate to read Age Of Reason , by Thomas Paine for bedtime stories. If they like to watch Vegetels (sp?) (Some biblical kids show depicting vegetable acting out scenes from the Bible), well then http://www.bricktestament.com is not out of line either.


She wants a church wedding. Maybe the church requires pre-wedding counseling sessions with the minister OR requires you to be a member or baptized or something.

Her family background is Catholic (most xians are Catholic here), yet she just says she is Xian other. I will not have a priest say, "...by the power invested in me", to us (no religion has power over me, as I am no meme). If the church wants to talk to me then they better get ready to meet the logic and reason of free thought. ;)


She wants you to attend church every Sunday with her


Sunday morning is for making love, period (family time). I do not think she goes to church, as most xians do not attend church here.


She wants to raise the children Christian or insists they go to Sunday School, VBS, etc.

If the kid wants to object and reject xianity, that's not a problem with me. I will take him/her out for pizza. VBS? If it's Visual Basic, sure, if it's the xian VBS well I hope the kid has the common sense the choose free will.


She doesn't accept evolution and wants to teach creationism to the children or she insists on teaching them about eternal hellfire damnation so they become scared for YOU. This can be emotionally wrenching for a child

She's not that fundee (or at least I hope not). I will teach the kids through common scientific experiments that there is no way somebody can burn forever, especially if their body’s molecules return to the earth when they die. You are correct. This will be a challenge. There is always the Discovery Channel, PBS, and the Learning Channel to baby sit the little ones. :)


She is actively anti-homosexual, anti-abortion, politically extreme right wing or maintains some other stance you find offensive


I am going to tell her about my homosexual friend who tells me explicit details about fucking his gay lover. ;)

Anyways, I have always thought of computer programmers as Free Thinkers or Pagans. This is the first time I ever meet a xian programmer.
:confused:

[chanoc]

Originally posted by nogods4me
COBOL? Did you say she programs in COBOL? good grief, my academic training was in COBOL but I didn't think anyone was still using it. Where does she work? Is it all jsut maintaing legacy code?

The State of Alaska uses COBOL. Old high-level language, she says it's high-level, yet wordy. *I am learning Python.

Thanks for your reply. :)

[Viti]

Chanoc...you answered with your wishes in regards to these questions...but what if they are in conflict with hers? That is the crux of the problem. Is she willing to compromise? Also, I have known many "lax" Christians who have turned raving fundie once they had children.

Not trying to scare you...this is simply the reality too often.

[nogods4me]

Yeah, COBOL is high level like pong is state of the art video gaming.

It was one of the earliest languages, IIRC ADM Grace Hopper was one of the creators back when Kent Hovind had pet dinosaurs.
It is easy to learn and write in, and knowing it has come in handy, I have stumble on a few other languages that resembled it, many report writers for instance, and Paradox for DOS had a language pretty similar IIRC.

Well, color me stunned that somwhere they still use it other than to maintain old programs that they cannot afford to rewrite.

Heck I even had an IBM COBOL compiler for an old AMSTRAD PC, I may still have the floppies somewhere.

Ah, flashbacks. Visions of my old Commodore VIC-20 run through my head, load programs from audio cassettes. damn I'm old.

[crazyfingers]

My wife is catholic. We've been together for 13 years.

She disagrees with Pope on almost all current issues.

She agrees with gay marriage
She agrees with the use of birth control
She is agaist abortion personally but argues that women have the right to decide for themselves.

She also accepts evolution

Near as I can tell her theology is this: "Jesus sends all good people to heaven regardless of their religion or lack of it."

So really, we have very little to disagree on that actually amounts to anything to argue about. No reason for conflict.

[Rusting Car Bumper]

Originally posted by crazyfingers

She also accepts evolution

so does the Pope.

DC

[crazyfingers]

Originally posted by DigitalChicken
so does the Pope.

DC

Yes that's why I put a space between. Not too clear I agree.

[Viti]

That's cool CF...with all the crazy charismatics and Baptists running around, the Catholics are looking positively Liberal these days.

I am glad it works between you and your wife, I just want chanoc to know this is not always the case.

[SiliconWolf]

Originally posted by nogods4me
COBOL? Did you say she programs in COBOL? good grief, my academic training was in COBOL but I didn't think anyone was still using it.

COBOL = Completely Obsolete Business Oriented Language ;)

[SiliconWolf]

My dad was non-religious (sort of an apatheist) for the first 18 or so years of being married to my Ultra-Catholic (TM) mom. I don't remember it ever causing any friction between them, but she did convince him to get baptized when I was a teenager. I will say that their situation doesn't sound at all like chanoc's because my mom goes to church EVERY DAY (usually twice) and takes it more seriously than anyone I have ever met.

Here is something to think about: I read once that people tend to become their least religious just after they move out on their own. Many tend to start going back to church when they have kids and decide to want to raise them in the church. I wonder if that trend will continue, considering the general decrease in church attendance in Western society.

Also keep in mind the possibility that her family might pressure her into doing things like a church wedding, etc.

I hope that we are all just looking for faults where there are none. The IPU knows I would like to have someone to have sex with on Sunday mornings. :)

[Howard]

As Thomas Jefferson said, “Sacrificing principle for pussy is not a vice.”

(Or maybe it was William Jefferson...)

[Trecker]

I am totally surprised that there would be so many atheist/christian votes in the poll! I have mostly dated and married atheistic women and it works for me. Perhaps it depends on the levels of tolerance possessed by both the atheist and the christian in the relationship. I know I just wouldn't be able to take a lot of god talk at me by my mate. I would also want my mate to be able to think straight. My wife used to be an agnostic/new-ager. As she got older, my wife abandoned a lot of the magical sort of thinking (something of which is a process I also have been going through for my entire life). At present we are both atheists. But neither of us was a "true believer" since we have known each other (about 28 years).

[chanoc]

She just left, and I told her I was going to infidels to read my thread. She said, you aren't bragging about fucking a Sunday school teacher are you? I said no (She did not even told me she tought SS untill this afternoon), this is about our relationship. I explained the post to her, and how I need to confer with other Free Thinkers.
When I called her earlier I said, "I am a true heretic, I work two jobs (16 hours) on the Sabbath." :D

Anyways, I appreciate all the posts, yet I need to go post in Humor for awhile-- the wine is getting me buzzed.

[chanoc]

I was told Catholic, yet they are Church of Xhrist, whatever that is. She is really sweet, and her family sounds supportive. Thinking of going to Universal Unitarian to check it out.

[beth]

I would seriously consider this. especially if marriage could enter into the picture. I wouldn't want you to dump someone just because they are Christian, that seems as cruel as a Christian dumping an atheist because of religious beliefs, but you really need to discuss things and negociate how your kids will be raised.


I was a Christian, helped in Sunday School, prayer warrior, an off and on part of the music ministry, and part of "the popular clique" in church. My children were raised to know theology to the point that they could have an intelligent conversation on it and even stump the pastor. Well, now my kids think I'm going to hell because I don't love God. Even if I tell them otherwise, or that I don't believe in hell, they understand their theology and understand that mommy is hell bound.

Religion brings a new tension into the home. As long as it isn't discussed, we are okay, but when it is brought up, things can get volitile. Are you satisfied with your children being raised religious? If you have no problem with it, you might have no problems, but if you do have a problem with it, then you're probably in for a battle.

Good luck.

[kkholiday]

Originally posted by chanoc
I was told Catholic, yet they are Church of Xhrist, whatever that is. She is really sweet, and her family sounds supportive. Thinking of going to Universal Unitarian to check it out.


I thought Church of Christ was similar to Assembly of God and Southern Baptist. That's about as fundamental as it gets. Of course people are individuals even if they subscribe to a particular religion; however, she is a Sunday school teacher. That sounds like she is a little more invested in the religion than you first thought, unless it is more of a social/fellowship thing.

One thing that doesn't quite make sense though: she teaches Sunday school, but she doesn't go to church on Sunday?

[Viti]

Church of Christ! She must not be following their teachings, or is in an "irreligious" phase, or simply justifies having sex by seeking forgivenes. But unless she is actively deconverting, I don't have high hopes for this relationship.

Right now you are smitten and can easily defend against our dour predicitions with "She's not like that", but how much is wishful thinking? That you thought she was Catholic when she, in fact, attends one of the mosts extreme fundamentalist churches in the US, says loud and clear that you are seeing this all through rose colored glasses and being overly optimistic.

Please try to step back for a moment and look at things objectively, and have a talk with her. Ask her point blank about her beliefs. CoC teaches Biblical innerancy...does she believe that? Does she believe in Young Earth Creationism? Can you ask her some of the questions in my first post about her hopes for any children she may have and how they will be taught?

I apologize, I don't want to be pessimistic, I just want you to go down that road with your eyes wide open. Some people make it work, some are surpirsed by how difficult it becomes because when they met their spouse "wasn't like that".

CoC belief statement (http://www.icoc.org/icocmain/whatwebelieve/believe.htm)

The "only" Church? (http://www.scripturessay.com/q406a.html)

[beth]

Please try to step back for a moment and look at things objectively, and have a talk with her. Ask her point blank about her beliefs. CoC teaches Biblical innerancy...does she believe that? Does she believe in Young Earth Creationism? Can you ask her some of the questions in my first post about her hopes for any children she may have and how they will be taught?I agree with this. You really need to discuss this if you guys are getting serious. And LS is right, Church of Christ is extreme. They think it is even sinful to play music in church songs. I went to one off and on for years with a neighbor. The people are nice, but seem quietly judgemental. I was not accepted until I was baptized into the church. Now, according to them, I am still heaven bound. Yippie!

[Keatslover]

Ok, I don't know if I'd call this love or not. More of a summer fling than anything else. But I'm a liberal agnostic and he's a conservative Christian who's...training to be a minister! We get along really well and even discuss religion and politics. Actually, one of the reasons I like him is he doesn't seem threatened by the fact that I'm an unbeliever and a chick-with-brains.
Note: A guy's religion doesn't matter so long as he's prepared to admit that you are a goddess.

[Diabolical Vengeance]

A few months a go i dated this christina who believes everythting thats spoonfed towards her. I couldn't take it. I need someone who's actually intelligent. I'm open minded but i just couldn't relate to this blockheaded girl. I'm never dating a christian again. To make it worse my best friend constantly teases me about it! I deserve it I guess.

[chanoc]

Chanoc showed me this thread and he said i could post under his id...

Yes, I do COBOL but usually just maintenance. I too had a vic-20 with a tape drive and I refuse to say I am old.

Okay, just to clarify a few things...
I already have 2 kids, that are being raised in my religion. But I will rip out the throat of anyone who uses religion to scare them. The CoC that I attend is not part of the larger organization. It is best described as non-denominational. I was raised to think for myself and I do not accept any large group church authority. I grew up with creationism and evolution and I plan to show my offspring both sides. They are children not zombies.

:) I am teaching sunday school for 3 months for the kindergarten age. It is mostly something to give my mom a break since she is the regular teacher. Its hard to say no when my kid is one of the three regulars. I usually just show up for services on Sunday. I consider myself liberal in my religious thinking.

The whole catholic mistake was based on some bad information from another friend of mine. I like Chanoc for who he is and because he can actually discuss things rationally. I have to end the post now cause he can't keep his hands off me.

:D -- Cupcake

[Bad Kitty]

I am an atheist, my husband is a theist -- a non-practicing Catholic to be exact. I have no idea what our many dogs, cats, fish, and frogs are. Probably pagans. ;)

My husband believes there is a god of some sort, I don't see any reason to think so. This hasn't caused us any problems, but then we are both extremely tolerant of other people's belief systems and neither is into "winning the issue".

Good luck.

[MortalWombat]

Originally posted by nogods4me
Yeah, COBOL is high level like pong is state of the art video gaming.Yes, COBOL is by definition a high-level programming language, which is just a term for languages that provide some level of abstraction (keywords, statements, etc.) above assembly language.

It is one of the earliest high-level programming languages, but it is high-level.

History of COBOL (http://www.csee.umbc.edu/courses/graduate/631/Fall2002/COBOL.pdf)

[Shake]

Originally posted by chanoc
Sunday morning is for making love, period (family time). I do not think she goes to church, as most xians do not attend church here.Sounds good to me!
If the kid wants to object and reject xianity, that's not a problem with me. I will take him/her out for pizza. VBS? If it's Visual Basic, sure, if it's the xian VBS well I hope the kid has the common sense the choose free will. VBS as used above was referring to Vacation Bible School. It's like Sunday School Lite for summertime. Usually much less intense than SS, the focus being on fun activities (but just to keep the church's claws attached).

Oops! Edited to add that I'm an atheist and my wife doesn't really have a particular religion to call her own. I'd say she's more of a deist. She realizes that no one religion is the Right One (TM), but believes in a higher power and has come to taking our son to my parents' church (a Lutheran one) to expose him to religion. I refuse to go to services (save Xmas Eve, 'cause I like the candles and singing), but when she asked if I'd go to, say, hear him perform with the choir or something, I said well of course, but that's more of being a good parent and being supportive. It's only been a (very) minor issue so far, and we communicate well enough that I don't see it getting too bad.

[Gawdawful]

Originally posted by Trecker
I am totally surprised that there would be so many atheist/christian votes in the poll! I have mostly dated and married atheistic women and it works for me. Leaving out Christians sure limits the pool of candidates. Think of it as an opportunity to make a convert.;) That's what I've done. After being around me for 27 years, my wife is finally coming around to a near-godless POV; she is more of a Deist now, lacking any faith in the biblical god of her Southern Baptist upbringing.

However, every once in a while, she says something that astounds me, like arguing with me about taking "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance. I have yet to convince her of her lack of logic on that one. Still working on it. Back to the lab. More shock treatments. Tighten the rack. Adjust the water torture drip. Mwahahahahah!

Warren in Oklahoma

[Purr]

I think people are more tolerant in the beginning of relationships. Not just of their beliefs, but everything about them. It's just naive to think it'll always be that way.

Some people are "tolerant" b/c they think they can change them later. (I've been guilty of this many times!) Some people are tolerant b/c they don't feel the need to connect on such deep levels. My ex bf wouldn't talk to me about religion or politics. (Hmph!)

I think one person will end up changing to some degree, either by choice, or by necessity.

Good luck! I wouldn't worry about it yet anyway. :) Have fun. ;)

[chanoc]

Originally posted by warrenly
Leaving out Christians sure limits the pool of candidates.
Warren in Oklahoma

Update: My girl really is nice! :) I meet her kids , and they are beautiful.

In response: I agree eliminating theists from the mating and dating sceen is very limiting. In Alaska I would have to import an Atheist, or just stay home and be happy being lonely-- sick of being lonely.

[Buddrow_Wilson]

Originally posted by chanoc
Update: My girl really is nice! :) I meet her kids , and they are beautiful.

In response: I agree eliminating theists from the mating and dating sceen is very limiting. In Alaska I would have to import an Atheist, or just stay home and be happy being lonely-- sick of being lonely.

Wait a minute. Alaska isn't the bible belt. Its chock full of heathens! Maybe you need to get the hell outta Juneau.

[chanoc]

We ended our time together yesterday. Oh well, she is a great girl, but we were not compatible as we thought.

hmmm....time to get a new girlfriend.:D

[Trecker]

This was kind-of a nice little thread that was interesting, real, and gentle. Good will seemed to mostly prevail throughout. I particularly liked it when "Cupcake" came on to say hi. Sorry to hear it didn't work out, but truly one, living, natural experience. Good luck to you, chanoc! (and cupcake!)

[Viti]

Originally posted by chanoc
We ended our time together yesterday. Oh well, she is a great girl, but we were not compatible as we thought.

hmmm....time to get a new girlfriend.:D Well after having this glimpse into your relationship, I for one, would like to know what ended it so suddenly and quickly. Yes, I am nosy

[chanoc]

Originally posted by LadyShea
Well after having this glimpse into your relationship, I for one, would like to know what ended it so suddenly and quickly. Yes, I am nosy

We had two weeks of endless romance and sex. She however made a good and bad list about me, and the bad superseded the good. For example, my credit history is not that great. Another thing that she was concerned about was weather I would be able to handle her mentally disabled kids. She got scared of my past background of drugs, gangs, and prison. We come from totally different backgrounds, she was raised “white bread” and I was raised around different cultures. Yet what topped it off was the fact that I did not believe in god, souls, or the afterlife, and could therefore never have true love.

Well, my past is past. Most people out there are caught up in debt one way or another. Maybe she should get a child psychiatrist for a boyfriend. I was willing to compromise for her Christianity, what was the big deal about me being Atheist / Humanist? Well, fuck it; time to move on. No more fundee girls.
:boohoo:

[chanoc]

Originally posted by LadyShea
Well after having this glimpse into your relationship, I for one, would like to know what ended it so suddenly and quickly. Yes, I am nosy

We had two weeks of endless romance and sex. She however made a good and bad list about me, and the bad superseded the good. For example, my credit history is not that great. Another thing that she was concerned about was weather I would be able to handle her mentally disabled kids. She got scared of my past background of drugs, gangs, and prison. We come from totally different backgrounds, she was raised “white bread” and I was raised around different cultures. Yet what topped it off was the fact that I did not believe in god, souls, or the afterlife, and could therefore never have true love.

Well, my past is past. Most people out there are caught up in debt one way or another. Maybe she should get a child psychiatrist for a boyfriend. If we all came from the same culture, we would be boring people. I was willing to compromise for her Christianity, what was the big deal about me being Atheist / Humanist? Well, fuck it; time to move on. No more fundee girls.
:boohoo:

[chanoc]

Originally posted by Buddrow_Wilson
Wait a minute. Alaska isn't the bible belt. Its chock full of heathens! Maybe you need to get the hell outta Juneau.

Well most of Alaska's population is in the Anchorage area. So, I assume that's were all the heathens live. Southeast Alaska is predominately theist. Now, I do not want to give up on finding love in Juneau. Leaving Juneau would mean on less freethinker heathen humanist atheist in this town. Although.... moving to Anchorage would be nice. I visited Anchorage about a year ago, loved seeing moose! See attachment.

[Millay1313]

Originally posted by Howard
As Thomas Jefferson said, “Sacrificing principle for pussy is not a vice.”

(Or maybe it was William Jefferson...)


That's the funniest thing I have heard in a long time
:notworthy

[chanoc]

Well, I don't know what to say. We got together again, and it looks promising. When I called her the other night, I expressed apologetic sympathy to her, and we agreed that we should be friends. The following night we watched The Two Towers, drank wine, and made love. It felt so safe and warm to be back in her arms. ;)

[Suaup]

Chanoc, considering how easily she left you the first time, and the items on her list of you have not changed - (Plus, given she evaluated you on something as superficial as your credit history? I mean, any woman who did that to me, especially if she did a credit check on me, would lose my interest in her.) Even if she's a parent, I still find that to be a bit too much. I just think you should hold back on putting all your eggs in one basket.

I'm glad you're happy for the time being, but I wouldn't go putting my whole heart into her just yet. Personally, if it was me, I don't think I'd have gone back to her given the break-up and differences, but I understand why you would want to given it's probably a lot harder to find decent women up in Alaska than down in college town in the south west.

Eventually the same issues will come up again, and I don't mean to be blunt, but it sounds like she just wanted to get laid, and you were available for that. If you don't mind being in a position like that, right on, more power to ya. I just hope you don't walk down the path that many athiests do in this community and fall madly in love with a woman that is a high-risk partner in a relationship.

[chanoc]

Originally posted by Suaup
Chanoc, considering how easily she left you the first time, and the items on her list of you have not changed - (Plus, given she evaluated you on something as superficial as your credit history? I mean, any woman who did that to me, especially if she did a credit check on me, would lose my interest in her.) Even if she's a parent, I still find that to be a bit too much. I just think you should hold back on putting all your eggs in one basket.

I'm glad you're happy for the time being, but I wouldn't go putting my whole heart into her just yet. Personally, if it was me, I don't think I'd have gone back to her given the break-up and differences, but I understand why you would want to given it's probably a lot harder to find decent women up in Alaska than down in college town in the south west.

Eventually the same issues will come up again, and I don't mean to be blunt, but it sounds like she just wanted to get laid, and you were available for that. If you don't mind being in a position like that, right on, more power to ya. I just hope you don't walk down the path that many athiests do in this community and fall madly in love with a woman that is a high-risk partner in a relationship.

We are seeing eachother, but it's not a relationship. We are friends with 'benefits' for eachother. Last night we had fun, and she asked if I was developing feelings for her. I am not feeling deeply for her, but like having her company. My eggs are not all in one basket, as I see another girl too. :D