Problems with Secular Paganism

[emotional]

Hi there Aquila, brighid, and y'all who are interested in the subject...

Just in case I manage to conquer my fear of death, I'd be back to atheism and atheistic spirituality. The secular pagan option still seems attractive to me. But there are a few problems. They helped draw me away from the path in the first place, and they're still there now.

1. No nature. Wild nature is being destroyed as we speak. I'm a city-dweller and I can't reach any area of wild nature without an hour's car drive.

2. No fellowship. Secular pagans are, to put it mildly, rare. In my country I know of none except myself. Being solitary is no fun at all, it's downright depressing.

3. No system of ritual. It's unlike Wicca where you have a system of rituals to perform. We haven't got anything comparable. And anyway, it's questionable what ritual could mean to atheists.

4. Failing health. The secular pagan path only works for those who are healthy. What to do in case of failing health? I, for one, suffer from constant dizziness and tiredness and am out of shape.

Any suggestions? Again, this is theoretical now, pending my overcoming of the fear of death problem. But I'd like to iron things out before they become practical problems.

[brighid]

No nature. Wild nature is being destroyed as we speak. I'm a city-dweller and I can't reach any area of wild nature without an hour's car drive.

I am not sure this any fault with secular paganism, or one that cannot be overcome. I don't live in the heart of any big urban center, but a suburb that has a decent amount of open space. I use to live in a concrete jungle and was forced to take that hour ride to enjoy nature.

I don't think one must enjoy nature every day to be secular pagan.


No fellowship. Secular pagans are, to put it mildly, rare. In my country I know of none except myself. Being solitary is no fun at all, it's downright depressing.

I don't think a path should be determined by whether or not one can find fellowship, but I do understand how this is depressing when one needs or desires human contact with those of similar thoughts.

I suppose we are rare, but I have found many who don't really believe in Gods at all. However we are in distinctively different geographic locations and this is likely a serious obstacle for you.



No system of ritual. It's unlike Wicca where you have a system of rituals to perform. We haven't got anything comparable. And anyway, it's questionable what ritual could mean to atheists.

It doesn't have any established system of ritual, but I don't see how that should stop one from developing ones own system. My group resides about an hour + from my home. I attend ritual about once a month or every two (depending on the weather.) We are certainly an ecclectic bunch and whatever I do on my own is strictly of my own creation.

Ritual, as I have stated in other threads, is merely a creative expression of meditation that provides me with meaning. Sometimes the meditation/ritual consists of a guided visualization, writing of poetry, sharing of a story, or an full out ritual circle with candles, herbs and the whole shebang. The meaning is up to the individual. Gods and Goddesses are merely archetypal/Jungian characteristics that I use to focus on some aspect of myself that could use to be in the forefront of my thoughts.

I am a strong believer in the mental power of visualization. It is a strong tool in achieving ones goals. Pagan imagery works for me, but it might not work for someone else.


. Failing health. The secular pagan path only works for those who are healthy. What to do in case of failing health? I, for one, suffer from constant dizziness and tiredness and am out of shape.

This is difficult. One of my girls has rheumatoid arthritis and this really curtails her every day activities. Exercise, proper nutrition, fresh air and meditation can greatly improve your energy levels. Yoga can be very good for this - even just something short like a 20 minute exercise (like Rodney Yee's 20 min. Power Yoga or AM/PM Yoga.)

Of course medical advise is always paramount to ones health.

Perhaps your pursuit of secular paganism doesn't need to involve much physical activity, but can be expressed more aristically. Writing, painting and drawing can be very meditative acts.

I don't know if that helps you any, but at this point in my life I don't have too many problems reconciling my lack of belief in Gods with my desire to engage in pagan ritual. I suppose that makes me fortunate.

Brighid

[Aquila ka Hecate]

HI emotional,
Sorry to take so long to get back to you.
Looks like my life gets in the way of being an Infidel sometimes!

I liked brighid's answers, but let me have a go from my slightly less coherent standpoint.

1.Joburg is like any big city anywhere, and I know whereof you talk when you speak of an inability to get out into 'nature'.
But try looking at it this way-mankind and all it's works are also a product of nature.
That concrete and steel around you was once in the earth, so her body still surrounds you!
I can see the stars whenever I close my eyes, regardless of where I am. Similarly, connecting to the earth is hardly a problem, even if you are 10 stories up-the distance is negligable on the scale of the planet-you can feel her heartbeat still.
It's a practised perception, I think.

2/3.Fellowship/Ritual
Well, here you've got me, as personally I am a misanthrope of note!
But back in the days when I still socialised, it was possible to connect to a pagan or even wiccan group, and join their rituals in such a way as brighid described, without feeling too out of it.
OK, OK, perhaps I exagerate for myself-but I left wicca primarily because of my position as HPS within the craft-I could not bring myself to teach something I was beginning to disbeleive in.
But not all pagan or wiccan groupds are the same. Some are more deity-centred, sure, but I think you'll find a huge acceptance within one whether you truly beleive in them or not.You could always give it a go, anyway!

4.Health.
I have been afflicted by chronic and acute anxiety for most of my life, compounded by the fact that I abused tranquilisers and alcohol.
It's something which simply 'left me' 4 years or more ago, but I wouldn't have counted myself as the healthiest person around in those days. Shortness of breath and dizziness sound like panic/anxiety attacks to me-perhaps you could have this checked out?
After all, I take it you're a good deal younger than me (I'm 43) and could do something about it sooner.
Besides which, many people celebrate ritual indoors these days...if only for privacy!


And finally, I don't really see Secular Paganism as a sect at all, despite the capitalisation I've just indulged in.
We seem to be a diverse bunch of people with a couple of things in common- an affection for the pagan lifestyle and a lack of belief in deity.
It certainly doesn't stop me living a fulfilled, fearless and free life.

My best to you,
Terri

[emotional]

Thanks for the advice, brighid, Aquila. :)

Let's see where this leaves me:

1. Nature: there's still the sun, moon and stars, as well as the big park near my home. I also remember a book called City Magick which described how to make most of the city. It's written for superstitious pagans :D but perhaps I can borrow a few ideas from it.

2/3. Fellowship and Ritual: I'm still on the local pagan group, so there's nothing barring me from joining their rituals. But things could be slightly quirky when I tell them I'm an atheist. During each pagan meetup they do a self-description of everyone. It could be something like this:

Me: I'm an atheist.

Pagans: You're an atheist?!

Me: Yes, I'm an atheist.

Pagans: Then what are you doing here?

Me: I'm a pagan atheist.

Pagans: Pagan atheist? Whassat?

Me: A tree-hugger who doesn't believe in gods.

Pagans: How can you not believe in gods?

Me: I just don't believe in gods.

And so on, and so on. As Aquila said once, pagans can be like the church deacon in recoiling in horror before the A-word.

4. Health: I think my medication has to do with it. What with my meds not helping me against fear of death, I'd better have them changed anyway. Or a change of lifestyle would do the trick. I'm currently on a nearly 7/24 schedule of computer life. That may be a bit unhealthy, to put it mildly. In October this state of affairs will come to an end when I begin my studies.

[Aquila ka Hecate]

emotional,
:D
and another one
:D

I've been through the same conversation with pagan people concerning atheism.
Thing is, things are changing mostly because of folk like us who don't see any reason to beleive in the gods and are unafraid to say so.

Be a groundbreaker in your country!
If you don't say it, maybe nobody else will, and that would be a pity.

Terri
who sees it's such a beautiful day that sitting in front of a computer seems like a shame.You have my comiserations

[emotional]

Hey, there's a local pagan meetup tomorrow (13.8.2003). That'll be an opportunity to put my unbelief out in the open.

The question I still ask myself is whether to say I'm an atheist or a pagan atheist. If I say just "atheist", then the pagans might jump offendedly, asking, "what are you doing here at all?!" If I say "pagan atheist", they might ask, "what's a pagan atheist?" I think "pagan atheist" may be more appropriate, then.

Me: I'm a pagan atheist.

Pagans: Pagan atheist? Whassat?

Me: A pagan who doesn't believe in gods.

Pagans: How can you be a pagan if you don't believe in gods?

And then I could elaborate about secular paganism, the connection to nature, and all that stuff.

Let's put pagan tolerance to the test. :D

[Heathen Dawn]

Aquila, brighid -

guess who's here ... do you remember me?

:)

[brighid]

guess who's here ... do you remember me?

Yes I do. :)

Brighid

[Heathen Dawn]

(deleted. issue clarified)

[Heathen Dawn]

Oh well, that was one nice pagan meetup.

I came out as an atheist. They received it quite amicably. :)

Between the various talks about shamanism, Arcana Goetia, Aleister Crowley, Qabbalah and other mystical, magickal, supernatural, transcendental - in short, harebrained! :D - things, I had a good time. I had the best time when I was talking about the challenge of being an urban pagan. That was a discussion after my own heart.

[brighid]

Heathen Dawn,

Thank you for the update! I am glad you had such an enjoyable time. I have typically found that Pagans are a pretty amicable bunch of people, but not without their own fundamentalists and loons. Plus, they throw MUCH better parties! :D

I hope you were able to connect with some good people, and perhaps a friendship or two will arise from all this.

The nice thing is you can still be an atheist and hang out with Pagans without much, if any problem. You can even participate in ritual if you like.

There is a pagan meetup in my area that I have never gone to, maybe I will try it out sometime. Your experience has inspired me.

Thanks for sharing,
Brighid

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Yes , I'm also happy for you , Heathen Dawn.

Personally, I go (when i go, which is not all the time) to the witches' meetup.

It has a hugely greater attendance rate than the pagan one here in Joeys, for some reason.

And I have a great time, by and large.

Now here comes my test.

In 5 days time, we will have the first ever atheist meetup in JOhannesburg (actually I think it's the first in SA!) and I will probably find myself explaining to them how come I'm a pagan and an atheist!


Good times will be had by all, I tell you:D

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by Aquila ka Hecate
Now here comes my test.

In 5 days time, we will have the first ever atheist meetup in JOhannesburg (actually I think it's the first in SA!) and I will probably find myself explaining to them how come I'm a pagan and an atheist!

Why is it a test? Are you expecting that, by saying you're "pagan", they'll associate you with all that hare-brained stuff? You'll just have some explaining to do to clear potential misunderstanding.

The word "pagan" is loaded. My first impression from that word was of people who sacrifice their babies to wooden idols. :eek: Only later did it become apparent to me that paganism could be about connectio with nature, even without gods.

A few of the people at the pagan meetup I attended don't believe in gods as literal realities, but only as Jungian archetypes. But they're different from us in that they're not metaphysical naturalists - they do believe in spirits, energies, afterlife, divination and all that lot.

[Peter Kirby]

Does paganism have anything to do with pantheism?

best,
Peter Kirby

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
Does paganism have anything to do with pantheism?


Not in the past, but now, modern neopaganism is tied with pantheism.

Pantheists of the past weren't pagans, and pagans of the past were totally literal polytheists. The Stoics weren't pagans. Neither were Giordano Bruno or Spinosa. Pagans of the past did pick up a god for central worship and called him "pantheos" (such as Dionysus Pantheus" in the pagan mysteries), but they believed in literal multiple deities, all quite distinct, much as our own Ojuice does today.

Neopagans have embraced pantheism. They may or may not believe in literal multiple deities, but they believe in an underlying unity of them all, and of all the universe.

See also:

http://members.aol.com/Pantheism0/pagan.htm

from the Natural Pantheism website. I identify with much of what is said on that website, but I don't call the universe "God". To me, "God" has a specific meaning. I agree with what Richard Dawkins says about the specific meaning of "God":


from "Snake Oil and Holy Water"

If God is a synonym for the deepest principles of physics, what word is left for a hypothetical being who answers prayers, intervenes to save cancer patients or helps evolution over difficult jumps, forgives sins or dies for them?

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Heathen Dawn:

Why is it a test? Are you expecting that, by saying you're "pagan", they'll associate you with all that hare-brained stuff? You'll just have some explaining to do to clear potential misunderstanding.


Yes, quite!

Actually I'm indulging in a fair amount of hyperbole, since out of the meetup members, one is my partner, one is on these boards(hello Farren!),and two of the remaining three belong on Secular PAganism SA Yahoo group! Thus leaving only one to have to explain anything to.If I feel like explaining, which is not a given with me.

But yes, the word 'pagan' is often loaded-inmmuch the same way that the word 'athiest' is.I'm getting used to it.

Re the discussion of the pantheist-pagan connection, I get the impression that many pagans do actually see the world in pantheistic terms.The common reference to the 'interconnection of all things' and the widely-held thought that the earth is our mother and cosmic sister and whatnot helps strengthen this idea.

All in all, 'pagan' is becoming such a wide-coverage term that you just can't assume that you know what it is a pagan person believes.

And this is healthy.

Terri

[Supergirl]

4. Failing health. The secular pagan path only works for those who are healthy. What to do in case of failing health? I, for one, suffer from constant dizziness and tiredness and am out of shape.

- - I have SMA (Spinal Muscular Atrophy), a neuromuscular disease with the primary symptom being proximal muscle weakness. That is not even remotely related to my practise or lifestyle (yeah, Aquila - I've been thinking of that one:D) in relation to paganism. And to top it off, my life expectancy is around 45 maybe 50 if I am not too lazy and take care of myself.

I am just a bit confused as to how your health can be a practical problem!

[Supergirl]

Originally posted by Aquila ka Hecate


All in all, 'pagan' is becoming such a wide-coverage term that you just can't assume that you know what it is a pagan person believes.

If only the blooming wiccans would get that point!

[Supergirl]

Originally posted by Aquila ka Hecate
In 5 days time, we will have the first ever atheist meetup in JOhannesburg (actually I think it's the first in SA!) and I will probably find myself explaining to them how come I'm a pagan and an atheist!

I did not even think like that - Duh! I was just too bloody excited that we will finaly have a meetup.

It is easier to explain to a pagan what a "natural witch" is, than it is to try and explain to the atheists that we do not talk to trees and have deliriums!

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Ah, SuperGirl, good to see you back!

:D

It is easier to explain to a pagan what a "natural witch" is, than it is to try and explain to the atheists that we do not talk to trees and have deliriums!

What's a "natural witch"???

I talk to trees.

But then I chat to the pots and pans when I'm cooking, so maybe I'm not a good example.

:p

[Supergirl]

Originally posted by Aquila ka Hecate
Ah, SuperGirl, good to see you back!

What can I say?? It's Friday, I need some comic relief and the fundi/ theists are ideal <evil grin>

What's a "natural witch"???

Ag nee man! LOL I must pickle along some reading material to the Meetup!

In short, natural witchcraft can be seen as Wicca without the idiotic god/goddess premises.
Vivvianne Crowley writes on the subject.


I talk to trees.

Yeah, but not because you follow the anima principles!!!

[brighid]

Ah ... natural witch ... well, I think a few people who don't like me very much would define me as naturally a witch ... so does that make me a natural witch? :D LOL!!

And yes, it certainly can be difficult to explain secular paganism to atheists ;)

Brighid

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by Supergirl
I am just a bit confused as to how your health can be a practical problem!

It's not much of a problem of now ... but I keep worrying what I'm going to do when I'm older and not so firm in body. I keep thinking about the future too much. I've got to stay my feet on the ground. I always did have a problem enjoying the present. "Always his sights set to the future", as Yoda says about Luke Skywalker. ;)

We who do not believe in gods and afterlife are riding the back of the Kraken, braving the pitiless rhythms of nature until the final blow comes. No gods in this merciless universe! But a host of hot, bright furnaces, around one of which we turn every year. Mother Earth and Father Sun are the focus in our lives.

[Infidelettante]

Quote:emotional
Hi there Aquila, brighid, and y'all who are interested in the subject...

Just in case I manage to conquer my fear of death, I'd be back to atheism and atheistic spirituality. The secular pagan option still seems attractive to me. But there are a few problems. They helped draw me away from the path in the first place, and they're still there now.
Let’s give them a try, shall we. I am not sure I would call myself a secular Pagan as I’m not sure what one is. That kept me out of this thread for a while but you all are having such a good time.
1. No nature. Wild nature is being destroyed as we speak. I'm a city-dweller and I can't reach any area of wild nature without an hour's car drive.
All the more reason to have as many nature worshipers as possible I would think. You might do well to take that hours drive now and then but nature doesn’t have to be wild you know. My back yard is hardly natural but, thanks to the talents of my dear wife who can induce anything to bloom, it is as worshipful a bit of nature as any would need. Grow herbs on the window ledge. Nature comes in many forms.

2. No fellowship. Secular pagans are, to put it mildly, rare. In my country I know of none except myself. Being solitary is no fun at all, it's downright depressing.
Pagans are rare lot and Secular ones must be even more so. Living in the Deep South makes people wary about announcing things like atheism and paganism. However, even here I could, by internet, be in touch with a good many Pagans in my city had I a mind to. I now and then have a mind but it seems to work best alone so I try not to push it.
3. No system of ritual. It's unlike Wicca where you have a system of rituals to perform. We haven't got anything comparable. And anyway, it's questionable what ritual could mean to atheists.
In fifteen years of Paganism I have celebrated few rituals with others but I have performed dozens on my own. For me the practice of ritual is the defining aspect of Paganism. Without ritual you may as well be Methodist. Ritual focuses the mind and directs the will. The thorough preparation of a ritual can reveal aspects of ones intent that are surprising and unexpected. There is no need for elaborate ceremony. The simple lighting of a candle when done with intent and purpose can be a powerful and meaningful ritual.

4. Failing health. The secular pagan path only works for those who are healthy. What to do in case of failing health? I, for one, suffer from constant dizziness and tiredness and am out of shape.
I’m not at all sure why you would feel this way about your health and Paganism. The best I could say is that you need to find a spirituality that celebrates life. One that is thankful for the body and the wonder of it and which is focused on health and well being. You should be able to find a Pagan path that fits those requirements.

Any suggestions? Again, this is theoretical now, pending my overcoming of the fear of death problem. But I'd like to iron things out before they become practical problems.
I suggest you develop a deep love of living. I'm not being flippant here. The love of living is the only cure for the fear of death.
JT

[Heathen Dawn]

Thanks JT. I've already settled that. And I've got my old username back.

[Supergirl]

Dorothy Parker's opinion

The Flaw in Paganism

Drink and dance and laugh and lie,
Love, the reeling midnight through,
For tomorrow we shall die!
(But, alas, we never do.)

I love the cynical DP.

[Heathen Dawn]

I'm so delighted! :D

I post both here and on Christianforums. The fact that both forums use the same software (vBulletin) is a great plus. So I decided to see if I could find a pagan discussion board with the same features. Somewhere in the past I had visited such forums as "Aries Rising's Pagan Forum", which were based on EZboard, which isn't the most user-friendly to handle.

Well, I thought to take a bet: what if, just like there are christianforums.com, there are also paganforums.com? So I typed paganforums.com into my address bar, and lo, a pagan discussion board, in vBulletin! But that wasn't the end of it. I typed paganforums.org into the address bar, and lo, a much bigger pagan discussion board (the .com board was quite small), also running on vBulletin!

That was it, I had to register. So now I'm on paganforums.org (MysticWicks Online Pagan Community) and have posted my introductory message, where my beliefs (er, lack thereof) have been made clear. I've already been given a cordial response to my introduction - all is well, they do accept atheists.

I expect to have more fun there. I'll take care not to bash their beliefs, and instead concentrate on the common point of the love of nature.

[Great Teacher Umikun]

Secular Paganism! I’ve been looking all over for the term for what I am. I am an atheist, but I believe in reincarnation (but always coming back in human form) and the soul. I’m from a Roman Catholic family, but I’ve dropped all Christianity cold.


I talk to trees.

I talk to myself.


But then I chat to the pots and pans when I'm cooking, so maybe I'm not a good example.

:p

I shout obscenities at my ADSL modem when the connection goes out. :Cheeky:

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Welcome, Great Teacher Umikun, to the growing band of Secular Pagans wordlwide!

And now I must bugger off for it's the weekend here.

Good to meet you, though.

Regards,

Terri