Psalm 22 and Messianic Prophecies

[Family Man]

As noted elsewhere, I've been having a conversation with Charles Darwin (a theist) over a number of topics. That thread is getting muddled, so I'm starting a new thread here to continue the discussion.

CD claims that Psalm 22 (the hands and feet being pierced). It has been pointed out to CD that retrofitting vague verses to fit isn't a messianic prophecy, and that the hands and feet reference is inaccurate (crucifiction, as I understand, was normally done with ropes, and when nails were used they went through ankles and wrists -- hands and feet wouldn't hold the weight).

WinAce and CD had long posts (which I won't repeat here) on this thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59858&perpage=25&pagenumber=3) starting about a quarter of the way down.

Anyone want to pick up the mantle? This is a bit out of my range of knowledge.

[mark9950]

(crucifiction, as I understand, was normally done with ropes, and when nails were used they went through ankles and wrists -- hands and feet wouldn't hold the weight).

The psalm was referring to someone else.What do you thimk?

[Utnapishtim]

Interestingly enough, I recently read the same passage in a Jewish bible, and it said "like lions at my hand and feet", not "they pierced my hands and feet". Is it possible that the pierced part is a mistranslation? I don't understand how there can be such a huge difference between these passages. From the Jewish bible I got the impression that David is referring to his enemies surrounding him and he compares them to lions biting at his extremities, getting ever closer.

[TheDiddleyMan]

Here is the entire passage from the New Revised Standard Version.

Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer; and by night, but find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried, and were saved; in you they trusted, and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm, and not human; scorned by others, and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock at me; they make mouths at me, they shake their heads;
8 "Commit your cause to the LORD; let him deliver— let him rescue the one in whom he delights!"
9 Yet it was you who took me from the womb; you kept me safe on my mother's breast.
10 On you I was cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls encircle me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast;
15 my mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs are all around me; a company of evildoers encircles me. My hands and feet have shriveled;
17 I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But you, O LORD, do not be far away! O my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion! From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescued me.
22 I will tell of your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him; stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he did not despise or abhor the affliction of the afflicted; he did not hide his face from me, but heard when I cried to him.
25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD. May your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28 For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29 To him, indeed, shall all who sleep in the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and I shall live for him.
30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord,
31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, saying that he has done it.



I trust the New Revised Standard Version above all others because they are not done by christians who are trying to read Jesus into the OT (although they are Christians on the translation committe. I believe Bruce Metzger was one...)

Not to say that this is a perfect translation or that all Christian translations are horribly mutilated, but I do believe that the NRSV is a more unbiased version.

Kevin

[Godless Wonder]

[...](crucifiction, as I understand, was normally done with ropes, and when nails were used they went through ankles and wrists -- hands and feet wouldn't hold the weight).[...] Really? Ropes? Where'd you get that info?

Just wondering, because I always thought it a bit odd that Jesus would die after such a short time (few hours) on the cross. The damage inflicted just didn't seem to be even close to great enough to cause death. Seems a good way to cause a a lot of pain while someone slowly died of thirst, or very slow blood loss, but a few hours or a day... it never seemed to me like nearly enough time for someone reasonably healthy to die from it)

I've seen photos of modern people in the Philipines voluntarily being crucified with real nails and everything. They had ropes though. I always thought the ropes were there to make it less painful, so the people's weight wouldn't be held solely by the nails. Are you saying those people in the Phillipines are doing it authentically?

Probably not..., they don't die (either), heck they appear to do it year after year, just for fun and profit, I guess.

See this crucifixion photo (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/photo/2002/03/30/0000029327) and The accompanying story (http://taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2002/03/30/129772)
And from the previous year (http://taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2001/04/14/81611)

(on second look I see they are supporting their weight with their feet. Still... wow.)

[Rational BAC]

I don't see how nails through ankles and wrists would cause a SLOW blood loss. I would think that death would come within hours.

[Family Man]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Godless Wonder
Really? Ropes? Where'd you get that info?

I read a lot of history and it's something I picked up. Nailing someone's extremities is not how crucifixion kills people. It's the need to keep the head up to keep breathing. Eventually, the victim becomes exhausted and suffocates. Ropes are a much easier way to fix someone to a cross than nails. Nails were used occasionally, however, so the crucifixion story is plausible.

[Family Man]

Originally posted by Rational BAC
I don't see how nails through ankles and wrists would cause a SLOW blood loss. I would think that death would come within hours.

That would depend on whether they hit a major vein or artery, wouldn't it. Otherwise the nail itself would work as an inefficient bandage and the blood loss would be slow. It would, however, speed up the exhaustion process.

Crucifixion was a slow method of execution. It usually took days for a victim to die. Jesus's relatively quick death is decidedly strange, but as I recall not impossible with the additional spear wound.

[Rick Sumner]

Originally posted by Family Man
CD claims that Psalm 22 (the hands and feet being pierced). It has been pointed out to CD that retrofitting vague verses to fit isn't a messianic prophecy, and that the hands and feet reference is inaccurate (crucifiction, as I understand, was normally done with ropes, and when nails were used they went through ankles and wrists -- hands and feet wouldn't hold the weight).

First off, just to avoid the inevitable charge of post-Christianity interpolation that seems to be dished out when this verse comes up. . .

Ps.22.16 ". . .They have pierced my hands and feet" does appear in a pre-Christian version of Psalms. 5/6HevPs, found at K. Qumran, contains this reading.(Abegg, Flint and Ulrich, _The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible_)

While the almost complete absence of skeletal remains would seem to argue that crucifixion was, in fact, usually done with ropes (if masses were being nailed to crosses, we would expect to find remains that had been nailed), several historians indicate otherwise:

"They nailed him to planks and hung him there. And they stoned Artayctes' son before his eyes" (Herodotus, History 9.120).

The soldiers themselves through rage and bitterness nailed up their victims in different postures as a grim joke, until owing to the vast numbers there was no room for the crosses and no crosses for the bodies.(Jos.War 5.11.1)

It is also interesting to note that we have, in fact, found the remains of one crucifixion victim, who apparently suffered with nails. Information about him can be found here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/crucifixion.html)

Regards,
Rick

[Celsus]

Hi Rick,
Originally posted by rickmsumner
It is also interesting to note that we have, in fact, found the remains of one crucifixion victim, who apparently suffered with nails. Information about him can be found here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/crucifixion.html)
Charlesworth has considerably revised his views on Jehohanan's crucifixion since that article appeared (1973). He based it on N. Haas' 1970 work "Anthropological Observations on the Skeletal Remains from Giv'at ha-Mivtar", Israeli Exploration Journal 20, 1970, which he now considers to be "severely flawed". You can read about his criticisms in "Crucifixion: Archaeology, Jesus, and the Dead Sea Scrolls" by J. Zias & J.H. Charlesworth in Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls, 1992, J.H. Charlesworth (ed.). In particular, his revised reconstruction only involves nails to the foot, while the arms were tied.

Joel

[Doctor X]

Very interesting stuff!

I whipped out my RSV and was about to congratulate myself on noticing that, according to the thin "Criticus Apparatus" the Greek Syriac and Jerome argue for the reading at verse 16b whilst the Hebrew has "like a lion."

Then I noticed that Utnapishtim beat me to it:

Interestingly enough, I recently read the same passage in a Jewish bible, and it said "like lions at my hand and feet", not "they pierced my hands and feet".

ricksummer prints an interesting quote which would suggest that this is not a later interpretation; however, I do not have 5/6HevPs listed in my Vermes' The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English or Eisenman and Wise's The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered. Is there a reference to the document--caveQdocument?

Nevertheless, this does not seem like a strong prophecy at all--even without the lions. Regarding nails, no, you cannot nail people up through the palms--the modern "recreators" have ropes or some other manner to support the weight from the hands.

A nail in the center of the wrist will miss the two major arteries and would probably apply pressure to them as well.

The question is why would the Roman stab him in the side and, by way of explanation, why would the author need to have him die within the day . . . probably to get him to rise on time.

--J.D.

[Secular Pinoy]

The NETBible translates it as Yes, wild dogs surround me—a gang of evil men crowd around me; like a lion they pin my hands and feet to the ground, and has a footnote that goes:“like a lion, my hands and my feet.” This reading is often emended because it is grammatically awkward, but perhaps its awkwardness is by rhetorical design. After all, men being attacked by lions do not usually worry about grammatical correctness. Perhaps its broken syntax conveys the panic and terror felt by the psalmist. The psalmist may envision a lion pinning the hands and feet of its victim to the ground with its paws, a scene depicted in ancient Near Eastern art. The line has been traditionally translated, “they pierce my hands and feet,” and then taken as foreshadowing the crucifixion of Christ. Though Jesus does appropriate the language of this psalm while on the cross (compare v. 1 with Matt 27:46 and Mark 15:34), the NT does not cite this verse in describing the death of Jesus. (It does refer to vv. 7-8 and 18, however. See Matt 27:35, 39, 43; Mark 15:24, 29; Luke 23:34; John 19:23-24.) If one were to insist on an emendation of yrak (“like a lion”) to a verb, the most likely verbal root would be hrk (“dig”; see the LXX). In this context this verb could refer to the gnawing and tearing of wild dogs. The ancient Greek version produced by Symmachus reads “bind” here, perhaps understanding a verbal root irk, which is attested in later Hebrew and Aramaic and means “to encircle, entwine, embrace” (see HALOT 497-98 and Jastrow, 668). Neither one of these proposed verbs can yield a meaning “bore, pierce.” It is better not to interpret this particular verse as referring to Jesus’ crucifixion in a specific or direct way. Oddly, the NRSV has a very different (from all other versions I checked) rendering of that passage: For dogs are all around me; a company of evildoers encircles me. My hands and feet have shriveled.

[Rick Sumner]

Originally posted by Doctor X
Very interesting stuff!

I whipped out my RSV and was about to congratulate myself on noticing that, according to the thin "Criticus Apparatus" the Greek Syriac and Jerome argue for the reading at verse 16b whilst the Hebrew has "like a lion."

Then I noticed that Utnapishtim beat me to it:



ricksummer prints an interesting quote which would suggest that this is not a later interpretation; however, I do not have 5/6HevPs listed in my Vermes' The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English or Eisenman and Wise's The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered. Is there a reference to the document--caveQdocument?

Nevertheless, this does not seem like a strong prophecy at all--even without the lions. Regarding nails, no, you cannot nail people up through the palms--the modern "recreators" have ropes or some other manner to support the weight from the hands.

A nail in the center of the wrist will miss the two major arteries and would probably apply pressure to them as well.

The question is why would the Roman stab him in the side and, by way of explanation, why would the author need to have him die within the day . . . probably to get him to rise on time.

--J.D.

It's not a prophecy, it's a convenient coincidence. Find enough of them, you can build a religion.

You won't find the passage in Vermes' or WAC's translations of the DSS, because they deal with sectarian and new biblical texts.

The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible is, I believe, the only place you'll find it outside of the DJD volumes.

For what it's worth, they note that it's the only fragment, out of numerous scrolls and fragments containing Ps.22, that has that reading.

Oddly, they still translate it as such. Despite the fact that it is less attested. :rolleyes:

Regards,
Rick

[Rick Sumner]

Originally posted by rickmsumner
For what it's worth, they note that it's the only fragment, out of numerous scrolls and fragments containing Ps.22, that has that reading.
I knew I was missing a quote somewhere, apologies, I should have incorporated this in the last post

"Psalm 22 is a favorite among Christians since it is often linked to the New Testament with the suffering and death of Jesus. A well-known and controversial reading is found in verse 16, where the Masoretic Text reads "Like a Lion are my hands and feet," whereas the Septuagint has " They have pierced my hands and feet." Among the scrolls the reading in question is found only in the Psalms scroll found at Nahal Hever (abbreviated 5/6HevPs), which reads "They have pierced my hands and feet"!-The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, Abegg, Flint and Ulrich, p.518-519

Regards,
Rick

[Doctor X]

Thanks, I think that since Nahal Hever is some distance south-west from Khirbet Qumran--the site of the caves where the "Dead Sea Scroll" were found, it may not be included by some under the rubrik of "Dead Sea Scrolls."

Given the above references, I am left with the questions whether or not the translation in the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible "traditional" like the RSV. In other words would the quote by Secular Pinoy apply to the text. Since his quote notes that the LXX translation should give: ". . . the most likely verbal root would be hrk (?dig?; see the LXX). In this context this verb could refer to the gnawing and tearing of wild dogs." and ricksumner's quote states they compared to the LXX--with a traditional and presumably incorrect translation, I am suspicious that this happened.

Thus, not only a weak prophecy, a "non-prophecy"--perhaps even one "unfulfilled?" I am unaware of any NT story where Junior gets attacked by lions or dogs.

--J.D.

[WinAce]

Glenn Miller argues that "pierced" was the original reading here (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/ps22cheat.html), although I'll leave it to you whether his arguments are successful.

I seem to recall reading a debate where Abegg's reading of the Dead Sea scrolls was disputed on the basis of an aleph... anyone know anything about that?

[Nectaris]

For a Jewish perspective of the Psalm in question (and a pretty good read, too), check out.http://www.outreachjudaism.org/like-a-lion.html

[abospaum]

I guess the question is where would a translation using "pieced" come from?

Even the NIV which uses pierced has a note saying that most Hebrew manuscripts as well as the Septuagint and Syriac all use "like a lion". Whey then would they go against every source and now turn to something that has no historical basis for being there.

Well it sounds good for Christians.

Lets remember that even if the Hebrew word was different on one Dead Sea Scroll and all others say something else which do you think is right. Also the writers of the NIV, KJV, etc did not have the DSS.

[Rick Sumner]

Originally posted by WinAce
I seem to recall reading a debate where Abegg's reading of the Dead Sea scrolls was disputed on the basis of an aleph... anyone know anything about that?

I hadn't heard that. For what my anecdote is worth, Flint gave a lecture here last year, in which I asked him what could possibly have inspired them to use a much more poorly attested translation, and I was informed that it was "a very deep question," and thus dismissed.

Regards,
Rick

[Rick Sumner]

Originally posted by abospaum
Lets remember that even if the Hebrew word was different on one Dead Sea Scroll and all others say something else which do you think is right. Also the writers of the NIV, KJV, etc did not have the DSS.

The translators of the KJV, NIV etc were using the LXX. They didn't need the Dead Sea Scrolls.

It's a difficult call as to what the earlier reading would be. The wide attestation of of the MT's reading, as well as the fact that none of the Christian scriptures mention it, seem to indicate that the original reading was in keeping with the MT.

On the same token, texts change. Often. Particularly at Qumran, where we can look at versions of scrolls as important as 1QS and see the development over time. Could be that "pierced" was original, and then editted.

The question of the authenticity of the LXX is made far more interesting by finds such as this among the Dead Sea Scrolls, where ancient manuscript evidence supports the LXX reading.

Apparently they weren't just imaginative scribes who couldn't read Hebrew very well.

[Rick Sumner]

Originally posted by Doctor X
Thanks, I think that since Nahal Hever is some distance south-west from Khirbet Qumran--the site of the caves where the "Dead Sea Scroll" were found, it may not be included by some under the rubrik of "Dead Sea Scrolls."

Emmanuel Tov has suggested, more than once, that he thinks they should be termed the "Israel Scrolls" or "Israel Manuscripts" for exactly that reason--not all the scrolls were found in the caves near Qumran.

I'm not aware of any question of the placement of the Nahal Hever fragments in the Qumranic library, though I'm probably wrong, it seems that everything about the scrolls gets questioned.

Vermes' book, and Wise, Abegg and Cook's book, don't translate any of the biblical texts, and give little information on them, because that isn't the focus of their work.

Regards,
Rick

[brighid]

Here is some good information about crucifixion:

http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crucifixion.html

A series of experiments carried out by an American medical examiner and pathologist on college students who volunteered to be tied to crosses, showed that if the students were suspended from crosses with their arms outstretched in the traditional manner depicted in Christian art, they experienced no problems breathing.14 Thus the often quoted theory that death on the cross is the result of asphyxiation is no longer tenable if the arms are outstretched. According to the physiological response of the students, which was closely monitored by Zugibe, death in this manner is the result of the victim going into hypovolemic shock.15 Death is this manner can be in, a manner of hours, or days depending on the manner in which the victim is affixed to the cross. If the victim is crucified with a small seat, a sedile, affixed to the uptight for minimum support in the region of the buttocks, death can be prolonged for hours and days. In fact, Josephus reports that three friends of his were being crucified in Thecoa by the Romans who, upon intervention by Josephus to Titus were removed from the crosses and with medical care one survived.16 ...

If, however, the victims are tied with their hands extended over their heads and left hanging, death can occur within an hour or, in minutes if the victims legs are nailed so that he cannot use his arms to elevate the body to exhale. For exhaling to occur in a normal manner two sets of muscles are needed, the diaphragm and. the intercostalis muscles between the ribs. With the victims being suspended by their arms directly over their heads, these sets of muscles cannot function properly which results in the victims inability to exhale and results in asphyxiation. Eyewitness accounts by prisoners of war in Dacchu during WWII reported that victims suspended from beams by their wrist, which were tied, expired within ten minutes if their feet were weighted or tied down and within one hour if their feet were unweighted and the victim was able to raise and lower himself to permit respiration. Death in this manner, which is one form of crucifixion, was the result of suffocation.17



Something from our own library:

www.infidels.org/library/modern/ peter_kirby/tomb/roman.html

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion

Simply binding the victim's limbs to the cross with rope is thought to have been the most common method; nailing the victim to the cross was reserved for especially serious cases.

Brighid

[Doctor X]

ricksummer:

So much for Vermes being "complete."

I think this expresses it:

I asked him what could possibly have inspired them to use a much more poorly attested translation, and I was informed that it was "a very deep question," and thus dismissed.

having a little bit of Textual Criticism for Trees course, the prof. demonstrated that even the "Big Editions" which claim scholarly rigor will choose a "traditional" variant over what the textual evidence says. They almost cannot help it--they grew up with these readings.

From my misbegotten youth . . . I remember the Psalm sung as a direct reflection of Junior-on-a-Stick [Stop that!--Ed.] This was tradition.

To "solve" the problem, frankly, someone has to look at the LXX texts and see what is actually written and compare them to what is actually written in the MT and the DSS! Based on what I see above, I would not be surprised if the ALL argue for "lions and tigers oh my!" and the "pierced" is just a traditional translation carried over!

--J.D.

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by Utnapishtim
Interestingly enough, I recently read the same passage in a Jewish bible, and it said "like lions at my hand and feet", not "they pierced my hands and feet". Is it possible that the pierced part is a mistranslation? I don't understand how there can be such a huge difference between these passages. From the Jewish bible I got the impression that David is referring to his enemies surrounding him and he compares them to lions biting at his extremities, getting ever closer.

See this is some garbage. It's errors like this that have people believing and reiterating misconceptions. I would think of the egg on my face if I hadn't known this and someone used this scripture as a reference. I guess I should get a new Bible. Which is the least biased to the translation agenda that prone throughout them all?

[Apikorus]

My take on Psalm 22:

I prefer the reading karu = "they pierced" (they dug?) rather than the Masoretic Text (MT) ka'ari = "like a lion". Scribal errors are hardly uncommon in the MT, and "like a lion" makes little sense in the passage.

What's more, the MT reading wrecks a fairly obvious chiasm. (I can hardly believe that I am the first to have noticed this - calling DrJim! - but I haven't found any other discussions of this point.) Here's the MT of the section in question, with the alternate reading in verse 17 included. (Non-Jews are advised that the MT verse numberings are slightly different than those you'll find in a Christian "Old Testament.")

13: I am surrounded by BULLS aplenty; strong ones of Bashan have encircled me.

14: They opened their mouths against me; a lion ravening and roaring.

15: Like water I am spilled; separated are all my bones. My heart has become like wax; it is melted in the middle of my innards.

16: Dried up like clay is my strength, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws, and into the dust of death you have brought me.

17: For I am surrounded by dogs; a gang of wicked ones have encircled me. {Like a lion} / {They have pierced} my hands and my feet.

18: I can count all my bones; they look and gloat over me.

19: They divide my clothes among them; and on my apparel they cast lots.

20: But you YHWH, do not be distant! My strength, help me with haste!

21: Rescue from the sword my soul, from the power of the dog my dearest one.

22: Save me from the mouth of the lion, and from the horns of the WILD BULLS answer me.

(I try as best I can to preserve work order in translation, and the unfortunate result is that it reads like a speech by Yoda.)

OK, what do we have here? The BOLD ITALIC CAPS, bold, and bold italic terms are all repeated, and in reverse order. This is an example of chiasmus, or concentric parallelism. In this case we have A-B-C-C-B-A, with A=bulls, B=lion, and C=dogs.

Clearly the MT reading, ka'ari = "like a lion," won't do in verse 17b, because this third mention of lion would spoil the chiasm. The word "lion" is already paired up. (The form A-B-C-X-C-B-A is also chiastic, but in such cases the central element X is distinct from A, B, etc.)

Furthermore, notice the parallelism between mouth/mouth and pierced/sword. This is perhaps weak, but it does reinforce somewhat the reading karu = "they have pierced." (An admittedly odd way of saying it, though.)

As to the meaning, this psalm was of course written centuries before Jesus was born, and while many Christians are apt to seize on the imagery of oppression, and can scarcely contain themselves over the "they have pierced my hands and feet" thang, it is abundantly clear that the author of the psalm does not consider himself/his subject (David?) to be divine in any way. Rather, he is a worm whose only salvation is Yahweh.

[Apikorus]

Why is it I always seem to enter these discussions after everyone else has lost interest.

{Sigh}

[CJD]

Well, that's simple, Apikorus. "Chiasmus" for some folks is like hearing "fire!" yelled from the back of a movie theater.

At least nobody is suspicious of what you write (even though we often make the exact same points) . . .

[Amlodhi]

Apikorus: "Why is it I always seem to enter these discussions after everyone else has lost interest. "

So you know, not everyone has lost interest.

I too prefer the reading "karu" for this verse and found your discussion of the chiasmus in the contextually relevant text to be very enlightening.

Thanks.

[DrJim]

Apikorus is definitely onto something here in noting the chiasmus.

But lets look at the problem in another way. I think we have a deliberate ambiguity and a bit of alliteration that may have been more important to the scribe than preserving a single chaistic structure. Here is what I think, I hope everyone can follow along. (I don't know if we have a standard transliteration scheme on the forum. I'm using > to represent the consonant aleph)

First of all in vs. 17 (16 in most English Bibles), the word lion/pierced is a bit odd. Like a lion" fits the spelling best, but not really the grammar, and it seems to break the neat structure Apikorus described. (Something is a little weird, however, since lions in 17 [Engl. 16] is a short form with 3 letters, >RY ,whereas vv. 14 and 22 [engl. v. 13 + 21] have the longer form, >RYH).

Verse 17 seems to demand a verb of some sort, so we have the frequent attempt to derive K>RY from roots like KWR or KRH which have the sense of "to bore".

I don't see why we have to choose between the alternatives. Lets consider a more localized structure, with K>RY as "like a lion", but lets forget about the line and verse divisions usually understood in most translations

Ps 22:17-18 (engl. 16-17)
For dogs surround me,
A gang of evil-doers encompass me LIKE a LION.
My hands and my feet I count (take acount of?) all my bones
They glare, stare at me.

If we move K>RY up to the previous line it makes a lot of sense as "like a lion", except that one might expect the plural "lions": it is hard to be encircled by one! (theh New Jewish Publication society translation has "closes in", which would make sense with a single lion as a simile for the whole gang). If we accept the difficulty of the possibly missing plural for the time being, we can see how 'like a lion' completes the image of entrapment, and the reference to hands and feet is completemented by the later reference to one's bones. "Counting" then, operates on both the previous "hands and feet" and the following "bones".

A recent study has indicated that in ancient Hebrew prose, difficult grammar was tolerable to make a word-play. One could imagine that in poetry, the same would be true, indeed, more likely. So we can offer a second translation with K<RY as "to pierce", as is often done.

For dogs surround me,
A gang of evil-doers encompass me.
THEY HAVE PIERCED my hands and my feet,
I count (take acount of?) all my bones
They glare, stare at me.


What I would propose is that K>RY is a kind of "pivot" word which operates with two meanings, one related to what has just been said (encircles/ closes in LIKE A LION) while the second meaning "to pierce hands and feet" make a whole lot of sense given the subsequent discussion.

This sort of pivot pattern is increastingly regognized in a whole lot of different specific forms in poetry and prose, some of which are amazingly complex.
It is hard to fit deliberate ambiguity into the old model of the biblical writers as having a specific "message" which was intended to be understood, and almost impossible to translate, especially if you wanted the resulting translations readable by a layperson or in a ritual context! There is sometimes a tremendous reluctance to accept the possibility of ambiguity among conservative Jewish and Christian interpreters and even among more secular historical-critics (who seem to insist that all writers should be as rational as they think they are). Attacks on that perception is part of the massive paradigm shift that is going on. Part of the so-called Minimalist program is to attribute most of the Hebrew Bible to a scribal institution, sometimes writing propaganda, other times writing for the sheer joy of it. Of course, most of their audience are other scribes. Under this new conception, recognition of word play is common-place, as one could expect the scribes to pour all their talents into the writen word.

One book anyone with some interest and a bit of Hebrew would be fascinated to read is Scott Noegle, Janus Parallelism in Job" (Sheffield Academic Press, really expensive...). Noegle (not a minimalist, himself, I don't think) finds some 70 cases of very creative word play of a spefic kind that is not simply there just because some scribe wanted to show off. (Somting like this sort of word-play is sort of what we may have in Ps. 22) The use of crafty and slippery words plays into the structure of the debate between poor Job, his friends and finally God. Noegle finds such word-games in a number of other ancient Semitic literatures too and a whole host of related kind of literary devices.
He has a paper in Journal of Biblical Literature, 115 (1996) on the same subject for those with access to an academic library (bring your Hebrew with you...): it is available online if you can find a library that subscribes to Academic Search Premier database, or a friend with a membership in the Society of Biblical Literature.


On difficult grammar as permitting word play, see the online paper by G. Rendburg

Confused Language as a Deliberate Literary (http://purl.org/jhs) It is in vol. 2, 1999.


Noegle has a full bibliography on academic work on Hebrew word play etc, see Bibliography on Word Play in the Hebrew Bible and Other Ancient Near Eastern Literature (http://faculty.washington.edu/snoegel/wordplay.html)

Another thing in Ps. 22 that needs to be looked at is the alliteration. notice in v. 17 K>RY where as in the very next verse "they stare/gloat" which is from the root "to seewhich has the same consonants: YR>. also notice that there is somethign of a visual game since those consonants appear in reverse order the second time round. I doubt whether an anceint scribe reading this would have missed it.

Anyway, I should see if anyone else has thought of it first and if not write it up all proper-like and try to get it published...

JR Linville
U of Lethbridge
Lethbridge AB Canada.

[Apikorus]

Interesting possibility of a dual use of k'ry in verse 17, though rather subtle.

I wanted to emphasize a point I touched on in my first post, which is that along with the animals (bulls, lion, dogs) comes an associated weapon (horns, mouth, sword).

Horns are not mentioned explicitly in verse 13, but one possible threat of being surrounded by bulls is that one will be gored (or trampled, I suppose). In verse 22b, horns are associated with the "wild bulls" (note parim in vs 13 but the somewhat obscure reimim in vs 22b).

In vss 14 and 22a we have both the agent "lion" as well as the weapon, "mouth(s)."

In vss 17a and 21b we have mention of dogs. The weapon wielded in vs 21a is a sword. This supports correcting k'ry in vs 17b with krw, i.e. we associate "sword" with "pierced."

Anyone buying it?