wretched essay in Rochester D&C, help me reply

[PopeInTheWoods]

It must be right-wing freak day at the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle editorial pages. Two letters condemning the Episcopal Church for electing a gay bishop (who I found out was just a few votes short of becoming bishop of Rochester last year). One letter offering insightful social commentary on the fact that more black men are incarcerated than in higher education by stating, "How about black men obeying the law just like the rest of us." A syndicated columnist opining how those that oppose gay marriage aren't really homophobes, and another attacking SC Justice Kennedy for speaking against mandatory minimum sentencing.

But the creme de la creme of today's prose is a "guest essay" by Michael Vaughn, senior pastor of the New Wineskin Church in Rochester, entitled "True Christians have been sitting on the sidelines". Some excerpts:

As a man who believes with his whole heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God, I have a question: Where are the real Christians who believe as I do?

We are living in a day in which all-out war is being waged against those Christians who truly believe what the Bible says. In the midst of this attack, many of them are sitting in their churches, preaching to one another and still putting into political officethe same people that are eroding the values that they preach about on Sunday morning.

Never before in the history of this country have true Christians been under assault as we are today. I emphasize true Christians because many people are professing to be Christians who absolutely are not. A true Christian does not believe that abortion is an option. They believe that abortion is murder and is an abomination before God.

A true Christian does not believe that homosexuality is just a different relationship between two people who love one another. They believe that homosexuality is against nature and is damnable before God. True Christians ...

... blah ... blah ... blah ...

This is a call to the true Christians to make a stand.

We must use our voices, our money and our political power to stop this assault against what we hold dear: our Christian values. It is time for a revolution. It is time for true Christians to be heard!

Pah, I need to shower after typing that crap in.

My first instinct for a response would be to thank pastor Mikey for his authoritative definition of "true Xian", then commend the D&C for publishing it so that the eight people who believe exactly as pastor Mikey does could read it.

My next thought was again to thank pastor Mikey for his interpretation of what the Bible says, then offer evidence (the 20,000+ xian sects) that others think differently. I'd also show that the Bible can be used to support abortion rights (murder is punishable by death, causing a woman to miscarry merits only a fine).

Neither of these seems terribly compelling, though. Can y'all help me out?

Andy

p.s. WTF is a "New Wineskin"? Anything like a "New Foreskin"?

[simian]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/
is a good resource for what the range of Christian beliefs is.

This guy sounds like he wants the Christian equivalent of the Taliban in charge.

NO Christian believes everything in the bible, flat earth verses show that.

The response really needs to get into the idea that Christians can accept "progressive revelation" - that their god is still revealing himself to them. For that you need a liberal Christian. If any of the universities in the area have a religion department, it is almost a given they can help you with the concept of progressive revelation.

Simian

[dangin]

If homosexuality is "against nature" why are there so many examples of it among other species.

This is where your "bible believing christian" TM will tell you about "The Fall" and about how the animals were brought down in sinfullness just like we humans.

If only I could role my eyes hard enough to hit someone with them.

[PopeInTheWoods]

Thanks for the advice so far. I'm aware of the wide range of views among xians, homosexual behavior in non-human animals, and biblical, err, imprecision. Pastor Mikey's rant is so full of mere assertions and fallacies that I could write a multi-page, Nutwatch-style treatise. But my goal is a relatively short ( <250 words), tightly focused rebuttal that has a shot at being printed. My question to you all is what approach would be most effective.

Another idea I had was to challenge other xians, asking them if they wanted to let pastor Mikey define them, and warning them that silence on these issues equalled agreement with Mikey-boy.

Andy

[The Other Michael]

Neither of these seems terribly compelling, though. Can y'all help me out?

They seem fine to me, with maybe a short explanation of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Or you could just ask him who died and made him Pope, that he gets to decide just what is/is not doctrine?

cheers,
Michael

[simian]

Originally posted by The Other Michael
Neither of these seems terribly compelling, though. Can y'all help me out?

They seem fine to me, with maybe a short explanation of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Or you could just ask him who died and made him Pope, that he gets to decide just what is/is not doctrine?

cheers,
Michael

Who died and made him pope? Jesus Christ, of course. :D (I have been waiting a while to use that one)

No true scotsman fallacy seems to be as brief of a description as can be done.

Simian

[Mike in NC]

I gather that the "True Christian" must be totally oblivious to the exponential increase in scientific knowledge over the last 2-3000 years and especially the last two centuries. All the discoveries in the physical and behavioral sciences have turned many traditional religious teachings upside down. Given what we now know about the the nature of homosexuality (and are still discovering), the traditional punitive teachings on the subject are totally indefensible, and frankly, the churches have one hell of a lot of apologizing to do and a hell of a lot to answer for.

[Mike in NC]

Also, I highly recommend for your reading pleasure "Why Christianity Must Change or Die" by Bishop John Spong, retired Episcopal bishop, anthough I have long suspected him of being a closet Unitarian.

[Ronin]

As a man who believes with his whole heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God, I have a question: Where are the real Christians who believe as I do?

We are living in a day in which all-out war is being waged against those Christians who truly believe what the Bible says. In the midst of this attack, many of them are sitting in their churches, preaching to one another and still putting into political officethe same people that are eroding the values that they preach about on Sunday morning.

Never before in the history of this country have true Christians been under assault as we are today. I emphasize true Christians because many people are professing to be Christians who absolutely are not. A true Christian does not believe that abortion is an option. They believe that abortion is murder and is an abomination before God.

A true Christian does not believe that homosexuality is just a different relationship between two people who love one another. They believe that homosexuality is against nature and is damnable before God. True Christians ...

... blah ... blah ... blah ...

This is a call to the true Christians to make a stand.

We must use our voices, our money and our political power to stop this assault against what we hold dear: our Christian values. It is time for a revolution. It is time for true Christians to be heard!

As an atheist law enforcement officer, I can honestly answer Pastor Vaugn's question.

It has been my own personal experience and a statistical fact that there are more true Christians (tm) in prison than any other group.

These incarcerated believers have held to the correct and true values espoused in the stories of Yah regarding their perceived infallible superiority over others and have had to be kept from the general public whom they view as satan-inspired non-believers worthy of severe violence (but, in reality, just consists of plain old good humans involved in healthy and consensual relationships).

As can be seen by reading Pastor Vaughn's diatribe, the demons he finds in society are all in his head and it will only be a matter of time before Yah "speaks" to him and he ends up in the big house casting spells via his delusion of a revolution while writing pretty pink love notes to his cell mate, brother Jackson, who is said to strongly maintain that the most powerful position is on your knees.

[Worldtraveller]

Originally posted by Ronin
As an atheist law enforcement officer, I can honestly answer Pastor Vaugn's question.

It has been my own personal experience and a statistical fact that there are more true Christians (tm) in prison than any other group.
<snip>...it will only be a matter of time before Yah "speaks" to him and he ends up in the big house casting spells via his delusion of a revolution while writing pretty pink love notes to his cell mate, brother Jackson, who is said to strongly maintain that the most powerful position is on your knees.

LOL :notworthy If I'm ever in the Big Easy again, I'm gonna have to buy you a beer for that statement!

Ontopic, I think a brief response would be better served by simply asserting (I realize that's playing thier way, but you're limited by editorial length) that his assertions are groundless, and a probably pointing out the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.

Cheers,
Lane

[ZiprHead]

Some else posted this below. I thought it was a brilliant way to demonstrate how people use christianity to cover their own biases. This should give you some ideas on how to point out the good reverends hypocrisy.

***
Dear Dr. Laura

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 5:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 4:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

[Autonemesis]

I emphasize true Christians because many people are professing to be Christians who absolutely are not. A true Christian does not believe that abortion is an option. They believe that abortion is murder and is an abomination before God.

A true Christian does not believe that homosexuality is just a different relationship between two people who love one another. They believe that homosexuality is against nature and is damnable before God. True Christians ...

Unsuspecting True Christian: Hi Pastor Vaughn, how's it going?
Pastor Vaughn: You are not a True Christian.
U.T.C: OK...whatever. Well, see ya!

There's where all the True Christians went, Pastor Vaughn.

[Shake]

Andy, I had nearly the same reaction to that drivel. But it was late when I read it and didn't have the energy to to even think about how to respond to it. Just did a good ol' fashioned "forehead, meet hand!" :rolleyes:

This part really got to me, though:We are living in a day in which all-out war is being waged against those Christians who truly believe what the Bible says. In the midst of this attack, many of them are sitting in their churches, preaching to one another and still putting into political officethe same people that are eroding the values that they preach about on Sunday morning.

Never before in the history of this country have true Christians been under assault as we are today. I emphasize true Christians because many people are professing to be Christians who absolutely are not. A true Christian does not believe that abortion is an option. They believe that abortion is murder and is an abomination before God.Oh no! Somebody please help the poor persecuted Xians! Wahhh! :boohoo:
Puh-lease!

Also Andy, be aware that the D&C's guideline for letters to the editor are for not more than 175 words! Unless of course you also do a 'guest essay,' in which case you're allowed more room. I assume you already have an idea of what you'd like to say. I'd be happy to help with the letter and its wording. Even if it does mean I have to reread his drivel about True Xians (TM).

[PopeInTheWoods]

I've decided to try short on length and long on rhetoric. Let me know what you think:

In his August 13 guest essay, pastor Michael Vaughn lamented, "Where are all the real Christians who believe as I do?", then boldly asserted what some of those "true Christian" beliefs should be.

Pastor Vaughn's astonishing display of arrogance completely flabbergasted me. Who is he to proclaim to the hundreds of millions of Christians in this country that his interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one? Who is he to dictate the required political beliefs of all Christians? And who is he to appoint himself the judge of who is or is not a "true" Christian?

Andy

[Shake]

Well, someone else here once argued against using Scripture against theists, but this seems to call out for, "Judge not. Lest ye also be judged."

Otherwise, looks good so far. I think they will take emailed submissions, but I'd have to check on that.

[butswana]

The "judge not lest ye be judged" thing doesn't work on fucks like this. They feel qualified to judge others because they are so righteous and godly that they welcome judgement. What they fail to see is that with this attitude they are committing the sin of PRIDE.

[PopeInTheWoods]

I did consider the "Do not judge..." approach, but Mikey seems so fundified that, as butswana noted, he probably has some rationale about how he's not really going against the Bible. Just like he doesn't when he eats shrimp or wears cotton blends.

I know the D&C does take e-mail submissions, as they printed my last letter (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52333) submitted that way.

I'm going to go with the letter as written above: straight rhetoric, short, and no references to either scripture or my atheism. Unfortunately that leaves it as short on evidence as it is on length. If someone else wants to chime in with some of the ideas mentioned in this thread (multitude of beliefs among xians, no true Scotsman, homosexual behavior in animals, or even asking exactly how abortion and homosexuality threaten xians), be my guest (http://www.democratandchronicle.com/opinion/feedback.shtml).

Andy

[simian]

Of course an effective, if crude, remark could be that "the first and only "true Christian" died on a cross."

Simian

[PopeInTheWoods]

Well, that was quick. I sent the final version this morning:

In his August 13 guest essay, pastor Michael Vaughn lamented, "Where are all the real Christians who believe as I do?", then boldly asserted what some of those "true Christian" beliefs should be.

Pastor Vaughn's display of arrogance is astonishing. Who is he to proclaim to the hundreds of millions of Christians in this country that his interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one? Who is he to dictate the required political beliefs of all Christians? And who is he to appoint himself the judge of who is or is not a "true" Christian?

The D&C just called and said they'll print it next week! :D

Andy

[rudolk]

nice reply. ever get the feeling that they're just printing crap like Vaugn's to get you to reply? Your previous response was extremely appropriate and articulate as well.

Kurt

--The time is 16:30...Regular NYSE trading has closed--
WOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

[Ronin]

Satire ~ R.I.P.

[Shake]

Originally posted by PopeInTheWoods
Well, that was quick. I sent the final version this morning:

In his August 13 guest essay, pastor Michael Vaughn lamented, "Where are all the real Christians who believe as I do?", then boldly asserted what some of those "true Christian" beliefs should be.

Pastor Vaughn's display of arrogance is astonishing. Who is he to proclaim to the hundreds of millions of Christians in this country that his interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one? Who is he to dictate the required political beliefs of all Christians? And who is he to appoint himself the judge of who is or is not a "true" Christian?

The D&C just called and said they'll print it next week! :D

Andy :cool: Way to go!

By the way did you see the other letters yesterday (Sunday, IIRC)? One praising Mr. Vaughn's letter and the other was along similar lines (can't remember off-hand, I've blocked it from memory). Blech! Neither of those were particularly worthy of response, though (IMHO).

[PopeInTheWoods]

Yeah, my wife pointed out the "Yay for Pastor Vaughn" letter leading off Sunday's column. To be fair, the D&C does usually present a good mix of views in both their letters and their editorial columns. It just seems that there's been a run of right-wing, theocratic crap the last week or so.

Another part of Mikey's essay that stuck in my craw, but that I didn't address, was the whole "poor persecuted xian" mentality. I'd consider challenging anyone who honestly thinks that xians get the shaft here in the US of A to a formal debate. It seems that the only way to make that case would be to use equivocation: equating "non-xian" with "anti-xian", or "secular" with "atheistic" (and then of course "atheistic" with "satanic").

Oh, well, my letter hasn't run yet. Maybe tomorrow.

Andy

BTW to Ronin - I hadn't seen your first response until now. :notworthy for the amusing reply to Pastor Mikey!

[PopeInTheWoods]

My letter finally ran today (Friday 8/22) under the heading "Pastor is arrogant in dictating beliefs". Even more beautifully, the next letter on the page was some yahoo from Mount Morris (out in the sticks, ironically the town where Francis Bellamy of PoA fame used to live) preaching how homosexuals, and those xians who don't condemn them, will be hosed on judgment day. He even used the "Depart from me..." line so prevalent in Chick tracts! :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

Andy