Athiesm & Ghosts/Hauntings

[Dreaming Skin]

I apologize if I placed this in the incorrect area.

Earlier in the year, I resolved myself as an athiest and let go the religious programming of my upbringing. I've always been interested in supernatural things since I was a kid, like ghosts, goblins, vampires, you name it.

Since I've personally discounted "God" as an entity that actually exists, everything else seems like bullshit to me as well. Now, generally, I roll my eyes when people on the Discovery Channel or whatever start talking about having spooks in their house. Even more so the kooks who walk around a house in infared light saying things like "oh yes, I can feel him in the room with us. It's very cold right here." It was easy to believe in the possibility of things simply because such subjects can be utterly fascinating.

Now, I only believe in day-to-day realism and want proof of things I can't see.

I'm just curious where other athiests stand on this(I hardly have any in real life to talk to). Do some of you not consider a supreme being but still believe in hauntings and such things?

[Senlatheil]

When I was first becoming an atheist (once a pentocostal Christian) I found the skepticism of Carl Sagan in his book, "A Candle in the Dark" to be very refreshing. It's full of ammo you can use to discuss ghosts and hauntings, ufo's, etc, with people.

[Dreaming Skin]

Thanks. I'll look the book up. I must admit, though, I have to consider extraterrestrials as a separate issue. I don't necessarily believe in flying saucers, per se, but considering the size of our universe, I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate other planets may be inhabited by intelligent life. Just thought I'd throw that in. :)

[King Rat]

I've had two "haunting" experiences in my life.

Both were in an old small town with a lot of history.

First experience: I was on my way to see my girlfriend of the time, she was staying in an old "historical registry" home. As I pulled into her driveway I could see her sillhouette moving in the upstairs windows framed by the setting sun in the West. I knocked on the front door and waited for her to come down, she didn't. So I knocked again, no reply, just then she came riding from the East down the driveway on her bike. Shocked, I blurted out "I just saw somebody in your house!" She hurried and unlocked the door and I ran upstairs to confront whoever was robbing her house. There was nobody there. The house had no back door, no open windows, no cellar.

I have many explanations for this one, but I still wonder.

Second Experience:

I worked for the local newspaper and the offices were located in a really old building in the heart of the "downtown" area. I was working late waxing paste-ups (I'm showing my age). I went to the bathroom for a nature call. While on the throne I heard the front door open and somebody walk through the office and exit through the back door. When I was done I walked out of the bathroom and to the back door expecting to see my editor having a smoke in the pavillion. The back door was still locked, weird... So I unlocked it and went out into the pavillion, nobody there.

The back of this particular building used to be a big room but the ceiling had collapsed at some point and they had made it into an enclosed pavillion. All four walls were still intact and there was no exit. What the hell? So I went back inside and checked around the office, the front door was still locked and there was nobody there.

I have several explanation for this experience as well, but I also wonder about it sometimes.

Neither of these experiences has led me to believe in life after death or ghosts or the supernatural etc. They are just strange unexplained events. I'm leaning more towards the ELF explanation for experiences like these. For me, it passes Occam's Razor with flying colors.

[Majestyk]

Ocam's Razor or I don't know. These are what I apply to the supernatural phenomena that people claim to experience. Most professionals can be written off as fruads. Those that believe what they claim probably are either misinterpreting their senses or have deluded themselves.

I have been curious about the possibilities of the possibilities of the occasional mixing of the multiverses. If (a pure fantasy if), mysterious sightings of long dead persons have actually occured then, what could be the cause? That individual existing as a spirit from beyond the grave? Or perhaps some tunneling of photons from a previous time or alternate timeline? But the question is irrelevant since; there has been no verifiable evidence of any such an event taking place.

Besides. There's enough weirdness in quantum theory to satisfy anyone's desire for the fantastic.

[pariah]

Originally posted by Dreaming Skin
Thanks. I'll look the book up. I must admit, though, I have to consider extraterrestrials as a separate issue. I don't necessarily believe in flying saucers, per se, but considering the size of our universe, I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate other planets may be inhabited by intelligent life. Just thought I'd throw that in. :)

Neither does carl sagan, author of science: a candle in the dark.

Yes, most atheists are complete skeptics. Except the atheists who are only "atheist" to deny christianity and beleive in all that new age crap, they are just as dumb as the xians...

[Heathen Dawn]

I'd love to believe in ghosts, hauntings and anything to do with life after death but...

there's no evidence.

And without evidence, I can't believe. Evidence is the only good reason for believing anything.

[Dreaming Skin]

As far as we have come in science and understanding the world around us, I still believe we have light-years to go. Who's to say how many forms of energy that screw with us on a daily basic have not been discovered?

I don't necessarily think everyone who sees ghosts or makes claims are lying or crazy--some are, obviously--but there is an explanation for everything, whether it's available to us or not. I've heards theories about "residual energy" from a person taking their form long after their death. Intriguing, but I don't know about that--how could it reproduce their image(complete with clothes!)? Seems like it would just dissapate and be reabsorbed into nature.

My grandmother explained to me when I was a kid that ghosts and aliens were the work of the devil. Big surprise. This was coming from a woman who refuses to make "deviled" eggs on Thanksgiving, have a "Dirt Devil" vacuum, or purchase food products with "devil" in the packaging.

to deny christianity and beleive in all that new age crap, they are just as dumb as the xians...

I am definitely inclined to agree there...crystals, charms, runestones, etc...that's some of the silliest shit I've ever seen.

[Viti]

I have maintained my interest in such things, I simply view them from a different viewpoint. Now I enjoy trying to come up with naturalistic explanations and hypotheses...it may not be fun for everyone but I enjoy tearing stories and photos and audio recordings apart.

[ceb]

I am a firm disbeliever in ghosts and hauntings, etc. There is always a natural explanation.

I look at it this way: If some "presence/energy/what-have-you" can interact physically with your eyes and ears, that energy would be easily detected by the much more sensitive detection devices and procedures at our disposal.

We're not talking some mysterious "quantum physics" like unknown energy here (like so many new age quacks like to speculate about). We're talking photons and soundwaves in the realm of classical physics.

[Tetlepanquetzatzin]

The name of the force that prevents rigid bodies from being penetrated is "normal force". When you place a cup of coffee on a table it is the normal force that resists gravity and prevents the cup from sinking through the table. When you bang your head against the wall it is the normal force that gives you bumps on your head and prevents the head from penetrating the wall.

Ghosts are curious inventions because they appear to be subject to vertical, but not horizontal, normal forces. That is, they walk freely through walls, yet they do not sink through the floor and towards the center of the Earth. I wonder what would happen if you put a ghost in a space ship.

[Viti]

ceb, I disbelieve as well...I am interested though. I have debinked several people's ghost stories to the point of them conceding that it didn't happen (I demonstrated some naturalistic explanation)...it's fun.

[tribalbeeyatch]

Originally posted by King Rat
They are just strange unexplained events. I'm leaning more towards the ELF explanation for experiences like these. For me, it passes Occam's Razor with flying colors. ELF? As in Extremely Low Frequency electromagnetic radiation? Could you expand on ELF and how it explains these events for you? It sounds interesting.

[sakrilege]

I have one sister who is a fundamentalist xian and another sister who believes in ghosts and holds seances. IMO, both are doing the same thing, looking for meaning outside themselves.

[Barcode]

No. I'm sort of embarrassed that I used to be heavily into paranormal " phenomena " a few years ago too. When I moved at the beginning of this month, all my books on u.f.o's, miracles, The Bermuda Triangle and what have you went into the trash can ...

Not a single piece of credible evidence exists .... obviously, if it did I would change my opinion ....

[King Rat]

ELF? As in Extremely Low Frequency electromagnetic radiation? Could you expand on ELF and how it explains these events for you? It sounds interesting.

Not the EM type used by the military, but sound wave propagation and superposition. There was an scientist (I can't find the link) who experienced a "haunting" at his lab. Like a true scientist when he calmed down he started investigating. He eventually discovered that a new HVAC and ducting had recently been installed and when he stood in a certain part of his lab the superposition of low frequencies created by the HVAC and ducting induced a feeling of cold and auditory and visual halllucination.

I swear somebody posted the story here on IIDB, I'll keep looking for the link.

I also feel the need to add the experiencer's state of mind during one of these "hauntings."

I remember once I was visiting an old Illinois graveyard near a bend in the Mississippi with a friend. This graveyard was quintessential horror movie fare. Gothic crypts overgrown with ivy, tombstones with skulls, cherubim, and veiled mourners, the whole enchilada. The sun was going down and a blueish mist rolled off the Mississippi and started flowing through the graveyard. I was struck breathless by the beauty and stood there amazed. My female friend however interrupted my reverie by screaming and taking off in a panicked run to the car. I followed to see what the problem was.

When I got to the car she wouldn't unlock the doors and let me in. So I sat on a tombstone and lit up a cheroot and watched the rest of the sunset. When she finally calmed down enough to let me in I asked her what the hell? She explained that she was sure that when the mist came rolling in she saw faces in the mist, "hadn't I seen them too?"

I assured her that I had seen only a beautiful scene with a spectacular sunset backdrop. And added that since I wasn't currently fending off the undead it was probably just a trick of the light. She finally calmed down a little more and we went back to her place and I calmed her down the rest of the way. ;)

Two very different versions of the same event.

[markfiend]

Originally posted by Barcode
No. I'm sort of embarrassed that I used to be heavily into paranormal " phenomena " a few years ago too. When I moved at the beginning of this month, all my books on u.f.o's, miracles, The Bermuda Triangle and what have you went into the trash can ...

Not a single piece of credible evidence exists .... obviously, if it did I would change my opinion ....

I still am "heavily into paranormal phenomena" as you put it. Not that I believe in little grey men from Zeta Reticuli or whatever; if I say "I believe in UFOs", what I mean is that "I believe that people sometimes see things in the sky that they cannot identify" -- which is obviously true! But it's a very long jump from there to aliens.

What I am interested in is why people seem so prepared to make that jump. So (for me) the "paranormal" is a sociological and psychological issue, rather than a pseudo-scientific one.

So as an answer to the OP, no, I do not believe in any objective reality of paranormal events, but their subjective reality to experiencers is a fascinating thing.

[Walross]

King Rat wrote:

And added that since I wasn't currently fending off the undead it was probably just a trick of the light...

You are a much less cruel man than I. I would have feigned fighting off an invisible attacker, then run to the car screaming "LET ME IN! LET ME IN!"

Then again I'm unable to keep a girlfriend for more than a couple months...maybe things like that explain it ;)

Anyways...your sound wave explanation is interesting. I hope you can find the link. It reminds me of the work Michael Persinger (http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/ns94.html) has done relating varying magnetic field effects on the temporal lobe to alien abduction experiences.

Like markfiend, I find paranormal beliefs fascinating, and the possible naturalistic explanations much more interesting than the supernatural ones.

Walross

[MortalWombat]

Originally posted by markfiend
...if I say "I believe in UFOs", what I mean is that "I believe that people sometimes see things in the sky that they cannot identify" -- which is obviously true! But it's a very long jump from there to aliens.
I will agree with that to the extent that yes, there are people who see stuff in the sky that they can't identify. Keep in mind, though, that the very people who make a living (observational astronomers) or a serious hobby (amateur astronomers) out of looking at the sky for hours at a time, who are generally better acquainted with the types of things that one sees in the atmosphere and sky, are never the ones who make UFO claims.

[Asha'man]

Originally posted by MortalWombat
I will agree with that to the extent that yes, there are people who see stuff in the sky that they can't identify. Keep in mind, though, that the very people who make a living (observational astronomers) or a serious hobby (amateur astronomers) out of looking at the sky for hours at a time, who are generally better acquainted with the types of things that one sees in the atmosphere and sky, are never the ones who make UFO claims.

I am an amateur astronomer myself, and am often pointing out things in the sky to people who rarely look up.

I had one occasion where I was pointing out a bright planet in a sky that wasn't completly dark, so the planet was the only thing visible. My friend could swear the planet was moving around, zigging back and forth like an alien spaceship (you know the type, the ones that don't have any inertia?). I assured her that it was all just a trick of the eye, and it would settle down as soon as the eye could see some additional background reference points.

I've personally seen hundreds of UFOs moving across the night sky, all of them man-made and placed into low earth orbit via rocket. I just don't know which one they are, so they remain unidentified for me. :)

[JERDOG]

I saw this on TV a long time ago. I can't remember the channel though. But they took a tour group through this old plantation home and mentioned things like the old architecher and the ways people use to live back then etc etc. The never mentioned anything about ghost or anything.
Then they took a second group through the house. But this time the tour guide had a colorful story of people being chopped up in the front yard and a little girl dieing etc ect. They just filled them with loads of bull shit.
They then interviewed people from the first group and then people from the second group. Guess which group of people felt the chills and the evil where as the other group did not?

Its all in the mind people.

[markfiend]

Originally posted by MortalWombat
[astronomers] are generally better acquainted with the types of things that one sees in the atmosphere and sky, are never the ones who make UFO claims.

Maybe not making UFO claims, true, but check Jocelyn Bell Burnell's personal account of the discovery of pulsars. (http://www.bigear.org/vol1no1/burnell.htm)
We did not really believe that we had picked up signals from another civilization, but obviously the idea had crossed our minds [...] It is an interesting problem - if one thinks one may have detected life elsewhere in the universe how does one announce the results responsibly?

[Hedwig]

Originally posted by King Rat


I remember once I was visiting an old Illinois graveyard near a bend in the Mississippi with a friend. This graveyard was quintessential horror movie fare. Gothic crypts overgrown with ivy, tombstones with skulls, cherubim, and veiled mourners, the whole enchilada. The sun was going down and a blueish mist rolled off the Mississippi and started flowing through the graveyard. I was struck breathless by the beauty and stood there amazed.


I have nothing of essence to add to the conversation...just wanted to say...that sounds incredibly cool. I love those kind of cemeteries and it sounds utterly breathtaking. :)

(Just to add my voice...I used to buy into the whole paranormal thing from the Bermuda Triangle to Atlantis to ghosts. It all fell away when the light of skepticism finally seeped into my brain. I like being able to look at a beautiful sunset and twilight without deluding myself into believing that fireflies are actually pixies.)

[King Rat]

I never found the article I referrred to in my earlier posts, but this link discusses the same stuff:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/09/08/ghosts.sounds.reut/index.html

[Dreaming Skin]

I ran into that article this morning. Quite fascinating. Ah, what wonders science holds!

[PaulPritchard]

Originally posted by Dreaming Skin
I'm just curious where other athiests stand on this(I hardly have any in real life to talk to). Do some of you not consider a supreme being but still believe in hauntings and such things?

Coincidentally, I say this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3087674.stm) today.

People who experience a sense of spirituality in church may be reacting to the extreme bass sound produced by some organ pipes.

Many churches and cathedrals have organ pipes that are so long they emit infrasound which at a frequency lower than 20 Hertz is largely inaudible to the human ear.

But in a controlled experiment in which infrasound was pumped into a concert hall, UK scientists found they could instil strange feelings in the audience at will.

These included an extreme sense of sorrow, coldness, anxiety and even shivers down the spine.

and

And recent work by some of the scientists involved in this latest study found that hauntings - the feeling that something or someone else unseen is in a room or building - may also be explained by the presence of infrasound.

[NearNihil Experience]

I really don't believe in anything. Belief is a strange concept to me. There's no need to "believe" in\on something(x) if you have had experience of something(x). Just deal with it from there.As an opinion, I think belief and denial are two sides to one coin that doesn't exist. Experience of a thing or action is inevitable, but only upon reflection(something wholly internal) can we begin to even consider belief or denial.

Having said that I have had no experience with and have come to the conclusion that the following things are good for stories and mythology but have little or no traffic outside our imaginations:

Ghouls,ghosts,goblins, spirits, mediums, psychics, telepathy, augury, divination, miracles, healings, "life" after death, Gods, monsters, faries, angels and demons,...morals, rights, truths, justice, laws, faith, hope, love, hate, freedom, fairness, lies...

Having said that.... I have had experience with "electro-magnetic disturbances in a central location". My friends house was stright-fucking haunted. I have had experience with things I can't explain...and all the words above that apply just don't fit. But things happened that only seeing would provide evidence for most people here. I won't try to convince because I won't try to convice others about something I can't explain even half-assed without using poor words. I'll say objects have moved, screaming and voices with only one person home, doors closing(sliding doors, thank you), that eerie feeling, being shaken awake by noone....And of course a graveyard right across the road, less than 50ft.

Someone else asked a question similar to this awhile back. The subject is pretty much skeptic fodder...."only idiots believe anything" and all that. Here's my cute saying about proof, " Skeptics are the people who need to shit in the morning to prove they've woken up. Empiricists shit first and don't flush just to piss off the skeptics."
(I hope someone gets the joke.)

[Lobstrosity]

My belief is that ghosts do not exist, and I believe this as firmly as I believe that Santa Claus does not exist. When I was younger I was fascinated by all things supernatural. I loved ghost stories and wanted more than anything for ghosts to exist because they would add a certain element of mystery and fear to this world (it's fun to look up at a scary old house and wonder if it's harboring ghosts; it's boring to look at that same house and just know it's an empty old house). Upon considering the logistics of and evidence for the phenomenon, however, I was forced to come to the conclusion that it's completely bogus. There are no vampires, werewolves, ghosts, or rectal-probing aliens. There are about a billion logistical problems with the concept of ghosts and basically zero evidence in favor of their existence beyond eye-witness statements, and we all know how unreliable those are (we have eye-witness statements for the Loch Ness monster, Big Foot, rectal-probing aliens, and all sorts of other fictitious crap...people tend to see what they want and/or expect to see, not necessarily what is really there).

[Barcode]

PaulPritchard: No wonder I've never had a spiritual experience in any church then because I'm almost deaf!

Thankyou God for making me immune to such things.

But no, I don't believe in ghosts, although I'm willing to concede that a very small percentage of things may defy conventional explanation -- it hardly means we can go assuming old aunt Ethel is haunting us from the other side.

There was a program on BBC1 many years ago which aired on halloween. Something called Ghostwatch? I remember that many people were actually convinced that Michael Parkinson was possessed and somebody else was killed.

I was about 12 at the time, and became rather spooked. Anyone else remember this? The program played right on human gullibility, and to this day I bet there are some people convinced such events were real and not merely entertainment.

[markfiend]

It was indeed called Ghostwatch. It's available on DVD now (at least in the UK).

[Insomniac Dreams]

Richard Wisemann (ghost hunter extraordinaire, irritating bastard and total skeptic) is currently part way through researching 'hauntings' by building his own haunted house. I had that copy of new scientist somewhere but i think i lost it. I'll try to find a link to it.

As for me, I don't believe in such things, but I do know someone who studied parapsychology and who is convinced that her old uni digs were haunted. I never saw any evidence of such things, but all her flatmates have had weird ass things happen to them. Maybe its a case of if you believe in these things you ascibe their cause to be supernatural whereas if you don't believe in such things you just brush it off as coincidence or random weirdness.....

:confused:

I'd put a link up but in order to view the archive it requires a password, so ill do a nice little cut and paste job instead:


DO YOU FANCY owning a "haunted" house where you could scare your guests witless at the flick of a switch, just like the baddies in Scooby Doo? Press one button and there's a distinct chill in the bedroom. Press another and weird vibrations set hairs on end in the study. And over by the fireplace in the dimly lit living room, amid the flickering shadows, you catch fleeting images out of the corner of your eye. Was it a child, an old hag, or...just the light playing tricks?

We're not talking cheap, fairground japes here - naff plastic skeletons and headless ghouls popping out as you pass in the ghost train. We're talking raw fear, about making people feel uneasy to the point of terror. But all in the name of science, promises Richard Wiseman of the University of Hertfordshire, UK, the psychologist who wants to build the world's first "haunted" house.

Wiseman dreams of being able to terrify visitors with spooky goings-on that he's designed himself. By controlling where and when these effects appear, he hopes to find out much more about how and why we have creepy experiences. "We want to build our own haunted house, so we're totally in control," says Wiseman. "It would give really important scientific results, produce a huge amount of publicity, and go down in history."

For the record, Wiseman doesn't believe in ghosts. But he is sure that the sensations felt by people who have ghostly encounters - fear, oppression and even nausea - result from a heady blend of psychology, hard-wired fear of dangerous situations and weird environmental effects such as subtle air movements. Combine these with preconceptions about ghosts soaked up from all those Hollywood horrors, and beliefs about the supernatural, and you have a potent mix that can unleash the weirdest feelings.

Earlier this year, Wiseman and his team produced peer-reviewed scientific evidence to back their hunch, published in the British Journal of Psychology (vol 94, p 195). They recorded the experiences of hundreds of volunteers visiting two of the UK's most "haunted" spots. One was Hampton Court, the palace near London reputedly haunted by the screaming ghost of Catherine Howard, Henry VIII's fifth wife. The other was the South Bridge Vaults, a labyrinth of claustrophobic chambers and creepy corridors beneath a Victorian bridge in Edinburgh.

Beforehand, Wiseman's team surveyed the two sites, recording environmental phenomena such as air temperatures and currents, magnetic fields and lighting levels. Then they asked visitors to report exactly where they felt or saw anything strange. To their astonishment, they found that people's most spooky experiences were often in the precise spots reputed to be haunted. And these same spots were often those with subtle but unusual draughts, air currents, temperature variations or even small fluctuations in the background electromagnetic fields. This provided Wiseman with a more earthly explanation for what some folk feel. "We showed people had odd experiences in the same places, and now we know they're based on environmental factors," says Wiseman. He also found that it didn't matter whether volunteers knew beforehand where the most haunted spots were located, disproving the idea that the experiences relied solely on prior knowledge.

Wiseman now thinks he can find out more through experiments in which he dictates where and when people are exposed to subtle environmental effects, and in which he has the power to prime people psychologically before they visit a site. "The only way you know if something is causal is if you control the signal," he says. "Hence the idea of creating some sort of haunted house."

In the perfect haunted house he would have control over lighting effects, the shapes and sizes of rooms and the features within rooms. And as spookmaster general, he could play with more subtle effects at will, introducing slight changes in temperature, alterations in local electromagnetic fields, perhaps wisps of a draught here and there, plus the bizarre effects of "infrasound" - low-frequency rumblings just below the limit of human hearing (New Scientist, 21 December 2002, p 50). And he'd also be able to tell volunteers beforehand whatever he wants: which spots may be haunted, the nature of any ghosts, and so on. In other words, total control.

Don't expect blood-curdling Hollywood effects. "It's the subtle things that count," says Wiseman. "Less is more." When he staged fake seances, for example, he discovered that people found things less believable as the effects became more obvious. What counts most, he says, is context. We experience all kinds of subtle changes to our environment in everyday life. But our sensitivity to them increases in surroundings where we feel on edge, and where our preconceptions about ghostly goings-on can heighten our sense of unease. "Context and priming accentuate these effects," he says.

Such feelings could even be hard-wired, primordial responses to natural hazards. Predators and venomous insects can lurk in cramped, shadowy corners, for example. And that's why Wiseman considers control over lighting and room size to be crucial. "I think many experiences are visually driven," he says. In the Edinburgh vaults, for example, people often reported the strangest feelings when entering the darkest, tiniest chambers. Objects such as old furniture are also important for reinforcing preconceptions of where ghosts lurk, and he expects his house to have an "Olde Worlde" feel.

What about more subtle effects? It's easy to control temperature with air-conditioning units hidden behind walls. "We're very sensitive, so the temperature wouldn't have to drop much," says Wiseman. "You can detect a quarter-of-a-degree change." Equally practical would be concealed metal coils attached to a power supply that can create blips in the ambient electric and magnetic fields, much like those reported by ghost hunters in the US during hauntings. Wiseman has already demonstrated the technology by fitting an electrical coil onto the back of a painting.

In fact, subtle electromagnetic fields are considered capable of inducing hallucinations, as demonstrated by experiments in the early 1990s by Michael Persinger of the Laurentian University of Sudbury in Ontario, Canada. By subjecting volunteers to electromagnetic fields, Persinger induced all sorts of hallucinations, from hauntings to out-of-body experiences. (New Scientist, 19 November 1994, p29)

Unearthly vibrations created by infrasound are also reckoned to be capable of inducing hallucinations or feelings of unease. Wiseman is keen to have it in his arsenal of tricks. "It's a subtle form of vibration, and can make candles flicker, for example," he says. "And believe me, it does feel odd."

So much for the theory. Is it likely to happen? Wiseman is optimistic because his house could be economically self-sustaining, a crowd-puller in its own right, especially if associated with historic venues already drenched in ghostly folklore. Might there be disused houses in the grounds of stately homes which could be converted for the purpose, perhaps a derelict cottage, or an old hunting lodge? That way, the "history" would come ready-packaged. Wiseman is contacting organisations such as English Heritage that manage historic properties to see if they're interested, reminding them that his experiments at Hampton Court attracted record numbers of curious visitors.

His experimental haunted house could prove a bargain. In all, he reckons Spook Central would cost around £50,000. And even if the team has to buy the house, the cost could be recouped by selling it after the experiments are complete. "We could even leave the equipment there, so the owners could have the scariest house in the world," he says.

However, surely there's a fatal flaw in his plan: if you know it's all fake at the outset, won't you simply scoff at any strange effects you experience? There are ways round that, Wiseman believes. One trick might be to invite clairvoyants to the venue's opening night to summon up spirits. That way, "ghosts" could still be to blame when visitors get spooked. For ethical reasons, Wiseman would tell people they are part of an experiment, but he says it might be possible to prime people with stories of unusual effects experienced by previous visitors, without telling them where they occurred. "We'd keep the whole thing ambiguous," he says. "And if we get genuine weird effects, it would add to the mystery."

Hang on, though. Suppose the medium succeeds and real ghosts take up residence... Wiseman's plan could end up seriously compromised. Then, perhaps, it would be time to borrow a trick or two from the Scooby gang - after all, no self-respecting spook would be seen dead anywhere near those pesky kids.

[Barcode]

Cheers Markfiend -- will have to search Amazon :)

You know, where I come from (Isle of Wight) there are stories of all kinds of hauntings. There are lots of Islanders saying it's to do with the fact the Island is bisected by two ley lines.

One New Year's Eve was actually spent in a field, waiting for a haunted house to appear. It's a local legend. I and about a hundred other people observed precisely nothing -- but anytime something untoward was heard, or if somebody noticed something moving out of the corner of their eye then shrieks were elicited.

Amazing how people manage to attribute the mundane to the paranormal.

What was that program Richard Wisemann presented with Carol Vorderman sometime back? Another Ghostwatch style type thing.

[Insomniac Dreams]

I think it was something to do with 'psychics' but im not sure.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by Dreaming Skin
I'm just curious where other athiests stand on this(I hardly have any in real life to talk to). Do some of you not consider a supreme being but still believe in hauntings and such things?

There are spiritually inclined people in my family that have claimed to see ghosts in my house (the previous owner committed suicide in the living room). I have never seen anything to indicate that there is any kind of a haunting (to my disappointment). To me it looks very much like a case of an overly active imagination.

Starboy

[BioBeing]

Originally posted by Dreaming Skin
I'm just curious where other athiests stand on this(I hardly have any in real life to talk to). Do some of you not consider a supreme being but still believe in hauntings and such things?
I call myself a skeptic. I do not accept unproven assertions about anything. The claims of all of the worlds religions are all unproven assertions, therefore I do not believe them. This makes me what is generally called an atheist.

[VonEvilstein]

Well, my POV is that if there were anything to any of these stories, one of them would have passed the evidence test...
Until then, it has all the credibility of a get-rich-whilst-growing-your-penis scheme.

[Tom Sawyer]

I, for one, would love it if ghosts were real, just as I'd love it if religion were real. It would mean that there is life after death and I won't just end.

Unfortunately, there's no reason to suspect that either has any validity whatsoever.

[wordsmyth]

I do not believe in ghosts, but I saw one once.

One summer when I was about 8 or 9 years old I stayed at my grandmother's house. She lived on a small farm in the middle of nowhere in-particular. The house was an old two-story victorian style manor that was surrounded on three sides by high hedges and old trees, which in the moonlight could play tricks on the mind of any 8 or 9 year old. Although, at times when storm clouds would blot out the moon it could be even worse because the darkness seemed a tangible thing lurking just outside the window.

On this particular occasion, I was awoken by my grandmother in the middle of the night. She asked if I was feeling all right because she thought she heard me talking to someone. I rubbed the sleep from my eyes and told her I was fine. She said that she was having trouble sleeping and was going to get a glass of warm milk and that if I wanted any to come out to the kitchen. I've never liked warm milk, but a few minutes after she left I decided that I could probably get her to fix me some hot cocoa, so I climbed out of bed and made my way to the kitchen. As I entered the family room I could make out a soft light from the kitchen as it passed down the long hallway that separated the two rooms. On the sofa in the family room I saw my sister laying on her side with her head propped up on one hand. She smiled and waved at me, so I waved back and proceeded to the kitchen.

Once in the kitchen I asked my grandmother when my sister had arrived because she hadn't been there before I went to sleep. My grandmother gave me a quizzical look and informed me that my sister was still at my father's house, which was some 50 miles or more away. I insisted that I had just seen her and ran back into the family room to prove it. Nobody was there.

What I saw seemed as real as stubbing your toe in the dark. It didn't look like some ethereal indescribable apparition. It looked just as real and detailed as my grandmother. But my sister wasn't dead and is in fact still alive to this day. So what was it I saw if not a ghost? Was it just a hallucination caused by a trick of the light? Possibly. Or could it have been something like a waking dream induced by my being drowsy and barely awake? More than likely. Either way it was an odd experience and something I shall never forget.

[Starboy]

Originally posted by wordsmyth
So what was it I saw if not a ghost?

The only difference between what you saw and the faces on Mars is that you can go back again and look at the faces any time you want. The most likely explanation is that the "tricks" that the mind plays on us are clues as to how the mind works. In the case of the Mars faces and your sister on the couch, it illustrates just how good our brains are at recognizing patterns even if the patterns are not what they appear to be.

Starboy

[starling]

Originally posted by Dreaming Skin
I'm just curious where other athiests stand on this(I hardly have any in real life to talk to). Do some of you not consider a supreme being but still believe in hauntings and such things?

I have never seen a ghost, haunting, poltergeist, a god or any evidence of one. Never seen magic ala thermodynamics turned on its head, miracles, paranormal phenomenon, charms based more on Physics than Psychology. Never seen someone come back from the dead for that matter, nor have I done so to the best of my knowledge. That doesn't mean it isn't all true, even the contradictions; I just haven't experienced it yet, and can't believe in anything until I do. Even then... how trustworthy are our senses anyway? :)


Starling
Who thinks people who hide from ghosts see them more than people who actually look for them. :rolleyes:

[King Rat]

Who thinks people who hide from ghosts see them more than people who actually look for them.

Niiiice! Can I use that?