Samurai culture, Hagakure, Book of 5 rings, Art of War... EMOTIONAL read this

[triplew00t]

Hey emotional (cant help but call you that for old time's sake). I read about the change of heart, so to speak, and I respect that alot. Maybe I could offer you some help from the sources that helped me. I find great comfort in Zen Buddhism (in which we are a continuation of many causes and continue in that sense after death. Birth and death are misnomers, taken only by the shallow sense of either I exist or I don't exist, when in truth we neither exist nor dont exist at anytime, but are the manifestation of myriad causes and effects. We ARE the world, the universe, so we weren't born and wont die, but our CONSCIOUSNESS and PERCEPTION will cease at death.) I also love the Hagakure, book of the samurai. It talks endlessly of fearlessness and accepting the inevitability of death, and how death is honorable, and not a disgrace or failure when it comes. This is what I was looking for in Norse mythology, but I find it in Japanese culture instead, because it includes Buddhist contemplation with the fearlessness, all the while leaving out the gods and afterlife (except in the strange Buddhist form of no existance/no non-existance, no being no non-being.) A Book of Five Rings is also valuable as it was written by one of the best samurai of all time on military strategy, but it can apply to all of life for fearlessness. I also, finally, suggest Sun Tzu's Art of War for the same reason. The whole samurai culture is based on serving, to the death, a lord, or, in this age, when a lord is not found, the ideals of justice, protection, and righteousness. This is the "worship" that I was longing for so much earlier. It was to have an ideal to strive for, something that was even more important than my life.

As Martin Luther King Jr. said, "If a man hasn't found something he is willing to die for, he doesnt deserve to live."

Here's the Hagakure extracts http://www.hut.fi/~renko/hag1.html
Here's A Book of Five Rings http://www.samurai.com/5rings/
Here's Sun Tzu's Art of War http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html

I wish you the best of luck.

Yours, Nero

[Doctor X]

Indeed . . . there is great wisdom:

If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyõjaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.

Hagakure, Tsunetomo Tamamoto

William Scott Wilson, trans.

--J.D.

[Heathen Dawn]

Hi triplew00t.

I'm afraid I don't have an inclination towards Zen Buddhism. My interest is mainly in nature spirituality. I've given up transcendence totally.

[andy_d]

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn
Hi triplew00t.
I've given up transcendence totally.

Nothing transcendant about Buddhism, my friend. It's all about tactics for living in the real world :D

(Those damn New Agers have given us Buddhists such a bad image :banghead: )

Random suggestion: Ever looked into animism (eg: Shinto) Heathen Dawn? That's "nature spirituality", innit?

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by andy_d
Nothing transcendant about Buddhism, my friend. It's all about tactics for living in the real world :D


But it's about how to escape the real world, isn't it? Isn't Nirvana the blowing-away of all worldly desires? I'm not partial to that.


Random suggestion: Ever looked into animism (eg: Shinto) Heathen Dawn? That's "nature spirituality", innit?

I'm interested in spirituality without the supernatural. The moment you insert hidden things, it becomes a wild goose chase much like the search for God. I prefer to stick to the cosmos of observation and measurement. "The cosmos is all there is, or was, or ever will be", to quote Carl Sagan.

But I may borrow some ideas from Shinto if I find them compatible. Heck, I've borrowed quite a few from Wicca! :D

[andy_d]

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn

But it's about how to escape the real world, isn't it? Isn't Nirvana the blowing-away of all worldly desires? I'm not partial to that.


Not at all. It's about escaping back into the real world. Which, incidentally is right here and right now.

It's not about getting rid of worldly desires, it's about not letting them do your thinking for you ie: thinking for yourself instead of being led by the nose.

Nirvana is not, I repeat NOT, detatchment from the world.

Whoops, got on me wee soap box there...:D

[Shadowy Man]

Replace Hagakure with Bushido: The Way of the Samurai by Tsunemoto Yamamoto and you got yourself a good reading list.

[Heathen Dawn]

So ... I take it Buddhism is all about self-control?

[triplew00t]

Hagakure IS by Tsunemoto Yamamoto. Are you sure we are not refering to the same work?

Nero

[andy_d]

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn
So ... I take it Buddhism is all about self-control?

No, it's about being happy :)

[Shadowy Man]

Originally posted by triplew00t
Hagakure IS by Tsunemoto Yamamoto. Are you sure we are not refering to the same work?

Nero

Ooops...you might be correct.

I was thinking of this book:

Code of the Samurai: A Modern Translation of the Bushido Shoshinsu (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0804831904/ref=pd_sim_books_1/102-2548426-2362530?v=glance&s=books) by Yuzan Daidoji.

A couple of other books I recommend along these lines are:

The Unfettered Mind: Writings of the Zen Master to the Sword Master
by Soho Takuan

Zen and the Way of the Sword: Arming the Samurai Psyche
by Winston L. King

[Heathen Dawn]

andy_d,

What if my desires make me happy?

[Magic Primate]

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn
andy_d,

What if my desires make me happy?

If they do then great. But often following desires mindlessly does not bring long term fulfillment. Playing computer games is distracting and gives me a buzz, but it doesn't make me happy.

Having said that, Buddhism is not asceticism, it has to do with awareness and finding the right balance. Living in the here and now, but not 'for' the here and now.

No, it's about being happy

I prefer 'realised' or 'fulfilled' to happy. Happy seems to have connotations of superficiality for me.

Nirvana is blissful mundanity.

[andy_d]

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn
andy_d,

What if my desires make me happy?

Well, the idea is that you can't get any lasting satisfaction from them.

Buddhists often say "There is no happy Ferarri" :rolleyes:

What that means is that if a Ferarri is what you think will make you happy, even if you get the car, it's not the car that makes you happy, it's your idea of it. The car couldn't care less what you feel about it. It's just a trick you're playing on yourself.

The problem is, once you have the shiny new car, you'll probably find that you still want other things, and you think that when you get those, then you'll be happy.

What we actually discover is that there isn't any one thing which makes us totally happy, and stops us from wanting anything more. The desire-obtain-desire cycle is endless. There is no successful conclusion to it. It's like a hamster on a treadmill, always thinking "i've got to be near the end by now" :)

We're always looking for some set of external conditions to come together, at which point we expect we'll be satisfied. The trouble with that is that we can't control these external situations very well, and since everything constantly changes, as soon as everything was "just so" it would change, and we'd be back to square one. The only answer is to stop asking other things to make you happy.

Wouldn't it be better to not need anything to be happy? Just to be happy. I for one, think that would rule :D


PS: You can see from this, why I said it's not necessarily about avoiding worldy desires. It would be perfectly OK to own a Ferarri and be a Buddhist, just as long as you didn't expect the Ferarri to make you happy. It's just a car.

[Heathen Dawn]

Oh. :)

I'm glad to have some steorotypes of mine about Buddhism smashed. I always thought of Buddhism as a religion of asceticism, monkishness, austerity and self-cancellation.

[andy_d]

Nope, in fact ascetism was specifically denounced by the Buddha. He tried it, it just made him sick and weak. It was once he chucked in trying to be an ascetic that he sat down and finally got it all sorted in his head.

It's all about "the Middle Way" :)

Glad to have sunk those stereotypes of yours ;)

[Ramen]

Originally posted by andy_d
No, it's (Buddhism) about being happy :)

I think that this could be a misleading statement. It might lead one to attempt to grasp for happiness or to use emotions as some sort of guide of "right' or "wrong". Feeling "bad" might tell you that there are things within yourself that you need to work on.

Buddhism can be a difficult path to follow because someone following this path has to face the things within themselves that cause suffering; which is definitely NOT what everyone wants to face or may not be ready to face.

Piggy

[andy_d]

<sigh>

I was just trying to get the general idea across, folks. Lighten up a little :)

Anybody that wants to get into the nitty-gritty is going to have to do the leg-work themselves, anyway.

[Ramen]

Sorry andy_d.

I didn't mean to darken this topic; but what is light and what is dark? ;)

Anyways, I was only trying to point out something that I would've appreciated being pointed out when I first looked into Buddhism.

But everything else you said, I'm in agreement with.

Namaste,

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/person/smilejap.gif

Piggy

[contracycle]

Please bear in mind that Japanese martial Zen is sometimes/often seen as a miltaristic corruption of Zen by continental Zennists.

[bjowan]

Originally posted by triplew00t
...I also love the Hagakure, book of the samurai. It talks endlessly of fearlessness and accepting the inevitability of death, and how death is honorable, and not a disgrace or failure when it comes....
A Book of Five Rings is also valuable as it was written by one of the best samurai of all time on military strategy, but it can apply to all of life for fearlessness....
Yours, Nero

If you read Hagakure, remember that it is written by a madman that dreamed of the "good old days", and that the values he promotes are (for the most part) made up.

The Gorin no Sho ("Tombstone book" in my opinion) is of little value to anyone outside the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, as it is a collection of short descriptions of tactics thought by Miyamoto Musashi. BTW he was not, in most scholars opinnion, the best strategist of his time.

Love the books, but don't try to live by them

[bjowan]

Originally posted by contracycle
Please bear in mind that Japanese martial Zen is sometimes/often seen as a miltaristic corruption of Zen by continental Zennists.


Please bear in mind that Japanese martial Zen is sometimes/often seen as a fruity corruption of ways of fighting/war by Martialists.

[Magic Primate]

Originally posted by bjowan
Please bear in mind that Japanese martial Zen is sometimes/often seen as a fruity corruption of ways of fighting/war by Martialists.

Which came first, the Samurai or the Buddha?

-----------------

Triplew00t,

From my superficial browsing of this text, one of the central qualities which are encouraged seems to be a philosophical fearlessness of death. Is this the appeal of this text for you?

[premjan]

Japanese civilization is said to have originated in the 7th century BC, contemporaneous with the Buddha.

[bjowan]

Originally posted by Magic Primate
Which came first, the Samurai or the Buddha?

The term samurai ("those who serve", servant) did not come into use until the end 8th century.
Buddha as born around 560 BC, about 1300 yrs before the samurai.
Buddhism came to Japan in the 6th century, about 200 yrs before the samurai.
The Zen school of Buddhism came to Japan around 1200 AD, about 2 - 300 yrs after the samurai

[Majestyk]

Originally posted by andy_d
Anybody that wants to get into the nitty-gritty is going to have to do the leg-work themselves, anyway. Now, that's zen.