God Exists?!?

[Good_anger]

I would like to see five reasons as to why you believe God exists or does not exist.

Thanks...

[Mageth]

You first.

[Tyre]

i was going to type the same as megadeath, but figured, why waste the breath, because of my hesitation i have now typed more....

[Peter Kirby]

I answer that, The existence of God can be proved in five ways.

The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence--which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.

The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.

best,
Peter Kirby

[Jobar]

Peter's arguments look strangely familiar...

[Jobar]

...and anyway, why limit ourselves? Let's go for more than three hundred! (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm)

(The "Argument from Beer #1" is mine! :D)

[Division By Zero]

I would like to see five reasons as to why you believe God exists or does not exist.
You got it.

FIVE REASONS AS TO WHY I DO NOT BELIEVE GOD EXISTS
A story written by Division By Zero

Once upon a time, there was no evidence for God's existence. Then along came a little boy named Division By Zero, and he suspected that there was no evidence for God's existence. As he grew up, he began to realize that there was no evidence for God's existence. Then one day, he had an epiphany- there was no evidence for God's existence! He was so excited that he chose to share his newfound knowledge with Good_anger, and in the course of the dialogue, Division By Zero finally realized the true reason he didn't believe- there was no evidence for God's existence. The End.

Five reasons, as promised. :)

[xorbie]

5 random things:

(1) the existence of God is actually irrelevant, except for those who believe prayer can bring immediate change within this world

(2) belief in God is itself irrelevant, and any meaning that can be derived from it can be derived from other beliefs

(3) it is impossible to prove whether or not god exists

(4) im tired

(5) im right

[SignOfTheCross]

Originally posted by Good_anger
I would like to see five reasons as to why you believe God exists or does not exist.

Thanks...

1. Self evident.

2. Biblical prophecies and their fulfillment.

3. The Catholic Church.

4. The resurrection.

5. Reason.

Peace,
SOTC

[Philosoft]

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
1. Self evident.
Given this, why even bother with other possible reasons:
2. Biblical prophecies and their fulfillment.

3. The Catholic Church.

4. The resurrection.

5. Reason.

[Peter Kirby]

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
1. Self evident. On the contrary, No one can mentally admit the opposite of what is self-evident; as the Philosopher (Metaph. iv, lect. vi) states concerning the first principles of demonstration. But the opposite of the proposition "God is" can be mentally admitted: "The fool said in his heart, There is no God" (Ps. 52:1). Therefore, that God exists is not self-evident.

best,
Peter Kirby

[Mageth]

OK, here's 5 reasons I lack belief in God:

1. Lack of evidence.

2. Biblical prophecies and their non-fulfillment.

3. The Catholic Church.

4. The non-resurrection (it seems like a God would at least get the story straight).

5. Reason.

[SignOfTheCross]

Originally posted by Mageth
OK, here's 5 reasons I lack belief in God:

1. Lack of evidence.

2. Biblical prophecies and their non-fulfillment.

3. The Catholic Church.

4. The non-resurrection (it seems like a God would at least get the story straight).

5. Reason.

For crying out loud, can atheists PLEASE STOP with their STUPID word games!!!

[NonHomogenized]

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
1. Self evident.

2. Biblical prophecies and their fulfillment.

3. The Catholic Church.

4. The resurrection.

5. Reason.

Peace,
SOTC
I'm gonna have to go with Mageth, and cite these same 5 reasons as among the reasons I don't believe

(self evident that "god" is an unsupported hypothesis;
biblical bad science, unfufilled prophecies, etc;
the catholic church, as well as other churches;
the resurrection of someone who doesn't seem to have lived in the first place;
reason, which is the most important factor other than "lack of evidence")

[Heathen Dawn]

1. Nonsystematic fate (blind, pitiless indifference of nature)

2. Anthropocentrism refuted (http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/anthropocentrism.htm) (heliocentrism, evolution)

3. Argument from confusion (too many contradictory descriptions)

4. Phsyical minds (no disembodied minds)

5. Divine hiddenness (He doesn't want us to believe in Him).

[Howard]

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
For crying out loud, can atheists PLEASE STOP with their STUPID word games!!!
You mean like the Bible?

[Kruzkal]

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
For crying out loud, can atheists PLEASE STOP with their STUPID word games!!!

Then be brave and prove your case here (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=59).

__________________

Philosophy - Questions that cannot be answered
Religion - Answers that cannot be questioned

[Hopeful Monsters]

God, Allah, and such like –

- do not exist because:

1. There is no evidence of their existence
2. They are manifestly inventions solely by and for the human mind
3. They are no more real or tangible than leprechauns
4. Science already explains most of what they were invented to try and explain
5. Truth revealed by human endeavour is far more beautiful and wondrous than ugly, ludicrous, twisted scripture

---------------

6. Homer Simpson is more real than God and far more Heroic.



PS. God and Allah DO NOT exist. Get yourself another hobby. :mad:

[Jobar]

Good_anger, some of us have been kidding around with this, but we all do realize that you meant it seriously. Thing is, this whole forum is rife with just such reasons, coming from both sides of the question; trying to focus it all down to a single post and five reasons is a bit like trying to do a hundred-word synopsis of Shakespeare's works.

If you're still here, and are really interested in engaging us in conversation or debate, you really must state your own position, and give some of your own reasons for it. See, we have far too many who come here and ask questions like this, and then never reply.

[joedad]

Originally posted by Good_anger
I would like to see five reasons as to why you believe God exists or does not exist.

Thanks... Please define this "God."

By the Baltimore Catechism (http://www.truecatholic.org/baltp1.htm#Part1) anyway, god is a "who," defined as... the Supreme Being, infinitely perfect, who made all things and keeps them in existence.and what exactly is the difference between "perfect" and "infinitely perfect?"

And it is assumed this god named God is a "who." If this god named God is a who, is it a male or female who? Does "who" have infinitely perfect hair? How long is "who's" hair? What color is "who's" skin? How tall is "who?" If "who" is male does "who" have a penis and testicles and is "who" presently producing sperm? Does this infinitely perfect "who" enjoy sex? Straight or gay? Where is "who?" Where did "who" come from?

I have questions before I can give my five reasons. Lets first somehow get this "who" defined, please. Every definition I've ever seen is no definition at all.

So please provide enough information about God that would at least make it's possible existence somewhat rational. Otherwise, "by definition," this god named God cannot possibly exist.

[Viper15]

I have a point to make. The reason we first believed in god was because we could not explain things. person 1 says, "What's happening? the ground is moving violently and dangerously!" Person 2 says, "Oh it was god who made the ground move." Now we know that it was the earth's plates that did that but we don't want to let go of the idea of something you can blame for everything. For example when a thunderstorm destroys a rock concert the very religous people start preaching that god doesn't like rock and thinks it's sinful. Well recently there was a Godstock that got blown over (and there is a whole thread about that) so God doesn't approve of that either. Unfortunatly I have not found any christians saying that.

[TomboyMom]

I am going to take your request seriously and give my 5 or so actual reasons for not believing in any god.

1. I have not found any definition of God that describes an entity that could logically exist, as I understand the meaning of "existence", and whose existence would make any difference.

2. I have never seen any evidence whatsoever for the existence of such a being.

3. Most arguments that I have heard for the existence of god are circular, and the remaining incoherent.

4. To me the existence of the universe and humanity are explicable without reference to god.

5. I can see many reasons why religion exists, and why adherents of religion want us to believe in their religious tenets, other than that they are correct. This causes me to view their arguments very skeptically.

BTW, why did you ask?

Rene

[Philosoft]

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
For crying out loud, can atheists PLEASE STOP with their STUPID word games!!!
Mageth may have been having a bit of fun, but his are all legitimate counter-evidences. Do you have a specific problem with any of his points save your general irritation with his syntax?

[Scandal]

1. I am here pondering the five reasons a so called God exists.

2. The Universe must have had a first mover, i.e. God.

3. God told me.

4. Sunsets.

5. Sunrises.

[beastmaster]

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn
1. Nonsystematic fate (blind, pitiless indifference of nature)

2. Anthropocentrism refuted (http://www.geocities.com/stmetanat/anthropocentrism.htm) (heliocentrism, evolution)

3. Argument from confusion (too many contradictory descriptions)

4. Phsyical minds (no disembodied minds)

5. Divine hiddenness (He doesn't want us to believe in Him). I cannot improve on these five very fine reasons for atheism. Of course, other reasons become relevant when discussing a specific god (and "specific god" is an oxymoron if I've ever heard one! (see #3 above)). In particular, I find #4 to be the bedrock of my atheism. I am highly confident that no human soul exists, and from this I infer that other widely-held conjectures on the existence of various non-material sentient beings are also false and unsupported.

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by beastmaster
I cannot improve on these five very fine reasons for atheism.

Coo, ta! :)

Nonsystematic fate is my favorite. It's a superset of the Problem of Evil. The facts are: there are good people who prosper, good people who suffer, bad people who prosper and bad people who suffer, all without any rhyme or reason to it. If God existed, it wouldn't be so, there'd be a system to it.

[Howard]

1) Cockroaches
2) Geraldo Rivera
3) AOL
4) Tofu
5) Rap music

[Spenser]

1. .... *drum roll* .... Lack of evidence.

2. The study of humans and history. It is more than evident that human beings have created religions in the past. Any Christian will tell you the Greeks created an imaginary pantheon of Gods, so even they can admit humans make up religions. They just can't see how ancient people could have made up their own religion.

3. God and all arguments for his existence are circular, presupposing and/or just plain illogical.

4. Religious people are annoying, especially in airports.

5. The universe shows no need of divine intervention. As said above, unless prayer has any real power, the existence of a God becomes irrelevant. Seeing as the majority of theists believe God is omniscient (knows everything that is going to happen), prayer is irrelevant.

[Howard]

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn
Coo, ta! :)

Nonsystematic fate is my favorite. It's a superset of the Problem of Evil. The facts are: there are good people who prosper, good people who suffer, bad people who prosper and bad people who suffer, all without any rhyme or reason to it. If God existed, it wouldn't be so, there'd be a system to it. There is a system - it just makes no sense.

(My favorite quote: God always answers prayers, but sometimes the answer is "no.")

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by Howard
There is a system - it just makes no sense.


Yeah, I know ... God works in mysterious ways. :p

Is Good_anger ever planning to come back to this thread? I hate it when they hit and run.

[Drew J]

I see many logical problems with the idea of the Christian God existing.

-I think that it's a contradiction that an all loving and all knowing God would create gay people and atheists only to have them damned to hell for eternity.
-God is also said to be above pride by the Christians I have encountered and God said he was the only God; so basically he gets jealous if people worship other (imaginary since he's the only deity) gods. Very mature, God!
-If God endowed us with free will and loves us so much that he hopes we will make the choices that will lead us to heaven, he must ensure that the selection will be really easy to make. However, in his holy bible, he has contradicting methods on how one attains salvation. In one place he says works matter, and in another place works are irrelevant.
-Plus there's the whole illogical idea of a trinity.