What Can Cause the Death of Xianity?

[kaidi06]

Greetings my fellow unbelievers. As history tells us, religions pretty much come and go. Changing times and the accrual of knowledge are often the motivating factors for the death and birth of religions. In your opinion, what type of event can or will cause a great number of Christians all around the world to abandon their beliefs and embrace reality? I initially had an idea that the discovery of life on another planet could cause Christians to frontslide. However then I realized that they could just either a) say that just because the bible doesn’t mention it that doesn’t mean that god didn’t create it, or b) reinterpret scriptures so that they appear to reference life elsewhere. Any thoughts?

[Peter Kirby]

From Biblical Criticism & History: Since Christianity is a thoroughly malleable and variegated tradition, no fact on earth or in heaven will slay the hydra. The decision to abandon that tradition, or to realize that you aren't really a part of it as usually understood, must ultimately be a matter of both the heart and the head. Some more heart and some more head, but the saying always holds true: a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

You wouldn't expect it, but the more fundified versions of Christianity will be hardier, because it is easier to reject reason in favor of a 'higher authority'. But, Christianity is already irrelevant in many European countries, and will become so increasingly as scientific knowledge, value on independent thought, and standard of living increases throughout the globe. But, there will always be irrational beliefs as long as we feel that we can't make our own moral decisions, that death can't be final, that there must be an extrinsic purpose to life, and that the preacher you respect must be right. Which is, for a very long time to come.

best,
Peter Kirby

[xorbie]

I am pretty much with Peter on this one. Education, especially science and philosophy, just helps create people who are less prone to fundamentalism of any variety. Moreover, the more liberal forms of Christianity that are becoming more and more common are not at all like the more fundamental forms in that they do not perpetuate themselves the same way.

[Godless Wonder]

Perhaps "we" (as if there is a coherent "we") should take a page from the Christians book. (figuratively speaking.) Get 'em while they're young. I'm fairly well convinced a great many people are only able to believe in Christianity because their minds/brains literally grew to be Christ-believing-machines as they grew up with those beliefs.

[one ryder]

Twain said, "You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into."

Christianity and other forms of belief in supernature will continue -- waxing and waning with the changing fortunes of the global community -- precisely until Twain's claim, for some unimaginable reason, is no longer true. And that ain't gonna be Monday.

one ryder

[Xyzzy]

Xianity won't die until some other more popular (and possibly more irrational) religion replaces it. Atheism doesn't plut into the human mind nearly as well as xianity or many other religions. It will never replace religion.

However, there is always Islam.

Religion itself will continue to be exist as long as the human mind continues to function the way it does. Who knows how long that will be.

[markfiend]

The only thing I can think of that would be the end of Xianity would be the extinction of the species Homo sapiens.

And on that cheerful thought...

[NonHomogenized]

Me. <evil laugh>


In your opinion, what type of event can or will cause a great number of Christians all around the world to abandon their beliefs and embrace reality?

about the only reliable method I can think of is death. Hopefully, a decent education system will appear, and take care of the problem within a few generations.

[winstonjen]

Ironically enough, the proof of a god. ;)

[Kruzkal]

Q: What can cause the death of Xianity?

A: If all Xians participate in this thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60469).

__________________

Assumption is the mother of all F ups

[Jobar]

Good topic, but let's move it to GRD.

[Hopeful Monsters]

Godless Wonder has the most likely answer and markfiend has the flawless solution.

I would add to the Godless Wonder education approach - build a whole new body of insight and knowledge as to why there are such commonly shared beliefs and throw that understanding at the kids and warn them about the mental pitfalls and loops they can could get stuck in ("It's called religion guys - watch out. For Big Bang's sake - THINK instead.").

BTW - Great Topic kaidi06

[asef]

1) The creation of a world-wide, non-censorable, intelligible, navigable, instantaneous communication system with limitless bandwith on which all thought/knowledge/learning is available and to which all people always have full access to.

and

2)The existence of logic.

[Jayjay]

Originally posted by one ryder
Twain said, "You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into."
I've seen this quote attributed both to Mark Twain and Jonathan Swift, and sometimes even Voltaire (though I'm pretty sure that's wrong). Can anyone here can confirm which one is the real source?

[callmejay]

Maybe the best we can hope for is that a really benign, liberal Christianity innoculates people from fundamentalist Christianity, sort of like a weakened-virus vaccine. :) It might even innoculate them from ALL of the more harmful religions, both old and new.

[andy_d]

Do religions ever just die, though? IMO, they tend to mutate into something new, just like the societies that spawn them.

[Jayjay]

Originally posted by andy_d
Do religions ever just die, though?
Well, you don't see Baal worshippers around anymore for instance. Some religions are/were intimately tied to particular societies, and when those died, the religions died with them. It's not a coincidence that the largest religions are more or less culture-neutral and easily malleable to almost any society.

[lpetrich]

Here is a possible way: the supporters of another dogmatic religion crush it.

As an example of this happening on a smaller scale, Xtianity went into a serious decline in the Middle East after the rise of Islam. Muslim leaders would impose an "infidel tax" on anyone who would not convert, and would treat stubborn non-Muslims as "dhimmis" or second-class citizens.

[Biff the unclean]

Oh I dunno. Look at all of the Atheists here. True we have all assumed false names but we are still here. Not that long ago we would be rounded up and dumped in a hole. Now we are at the top of science and learning. Christianity has become something of a joke in Europe. You never see a movie where the hero is a Christian. Give it time, give it time...but don't give your right name just yet

[Godless Wonder]

Tear yet another page from the Christian book: Be fruitful and multiply. Simply outbreed everyone else. Have tons and tons of little atheist kids, who in turn, have tons more, etc. Not very environmentally sound though. Or likely.

[Kruzkal]

Q: What can cause the ceath of xianity?

A: If we found a cure to the human condition known as "logically challenged".

__________________

The answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything is 42

[Opera Nut]

It's happening already. People are realizing that the churches do not want to change with the times, so they get mad and leave. The more restrictive the faith is, the more people get kicked out/disgusted/shunned, and leave.

The same fights recur over and over with a different group of people as the subject. In the Episcopal Church, in the 70s it was women ministers. Now it's gay ministers. Of course this happens in the greater society as well. I don't think the Pope thinks females have a soul yet.

Christianity recycles the same old tired illogic and doesn't answer our questions. A lot of people in America see religion as just irrelevant.

[never been there]

Establish the Christian church. Works in the UK, Sweden, the Netherlands, worked in France, Germany, Italy.

Pity it doesn't seem to be so effective on Islam.

[Doctor X]

Well, you don't see Baal worshippers around anymore for instance.

Actually you do, Baalism became YHWHism . . . which . . . sort of . . . became the Big Daddy we all know and loath.

--J.D.

[JaeIsGod]

I think the only thing that can kill Christianity is another God revealing himself. Zeus or sth.

[Barcode]

Education. Education. Like others have pointed out -- it's very difficult to see how someone who learns the rubric of logic, rational thought and how to construct and deconstruct arguments can continue to believe in religion/God.

Well, you would think ... occasionally I meet believers who appear to have built a brick wall around whatever part of their mind tells them God exists ...

[Lonely_Road_Of_Faith]

Personally, I'm a Christian,,,though I'm rather liberal and logical about things,,,

I post on another message board where ya see a lot of really narrow-minded Christians,,,

You wanna know my opinion? Let the fundies keep getting more fundy-ish and exclusivistic and fighting against every potential change that they see,,,and eventually most people will either get kicked out of the fundy churches or simply quit going when they see enough things that challenge their views,,,eventually there won't be enough people left to perpetuate the "correct-belief" view of religion that a given church or denomination holds.

Personally I think there will always be Christians (Or Jews, Muslims, or Bhuddists etc.) but the ones who help their religions in the long-term, and keep them alive and vital will likely be the logical ones who are willing to adapt in an ever-changing universe and to accept others that their religion defines as non-believers. Christians have to adapt to changes in their environment instead of turning inward and becoming narcissistic. Some of us have done that,,,shoot, one of my best friends is a Muslim, and a couple years ago I dated a Satanist,,,

You'd be amazed how many "Christians" get rather upset about that,,,hehehe.

Craig

[kelsos]

When Christianity was new, 30% of the population of Rome could read and write (including slaves).

When Christianity had ruled 1000 years, 3% of the population could read and write (not including slaves)

The other important thing to achiece is real secularization, i.e. no more covert funding for religious institutions with tax money paid by all citizens.

One day, I am sure, Christians will be today's equivalent of the members of the Flat Earth society.

[Rational BAC]

Christianity will never die. It has too much going for it.

A wonderful story. God become man just to see what it feels like. And to develop a certain empathy for the human condition.

The Old Testament God was essentially an egomaniac turd. I think He learned something from coming down to Earth.

God learned from Jesus. We learned from Jesus.

Of course you can say that an omniscient God knows all and does not need to learn anything at all. --------But I don't think there is such a thing as an omniscient God. God is learning just as we are learning.

Take away the idea that God knows the future and so many of the atheist arguments about free will just disappear.

Why is it necessary that God should know the future?

Reading the Bible it is very obvious that God is still learning. Just as we are.

[Lonely_Road_Of_Faith]

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Reading the Bible it is very obvious that God is still learning. Just as we are.

Wow,,,now THERE'S a profound statement. :D

Good point hehehe.

LROF

[Gothic_J]

mass quality education will kill it.

[Lonely_Road_Of_Faith]

Originally posted by Gothic_J
mass quality education will kill it.

Yeah, but what sort of "quality" education?

As I said before I'm a Christian,,,but I disagree with a lot of "Fundamentalist" doctrines in particular,,,let the fundies keep up with illogical and anti-scientific beliefs like creationism (which cannot seem to be argued for without a logical fallacy or 3) and eventually people will start to realize that, yes, some parts of the Bible weren't meant to be taken literally. What really bothers me though, is the tendency of some Christians to cite the Bible as the sole authority on this, that, or the other thing when discussing issues with somebody who may have no knowledge of the Bible,,,it just annoys me, as those people tend to alienate a lot of non-christians. I've said it before and I'll say it again, one cannot win someone else over to their point of view with falsehoods or deception or illogic, because reality WILL catch up eventually.

I just wish more people understood that fact.

I think eventually Christianity will adapt, as will all the other "main" world religions, simply because there WILL be some that follow any given religion who will recognize that they need to fight for change.

<><

[andy_d]

Originally posted by kelsos
When Christianity was new, 30% of the population of Rome could read and write (including slaves).

When Christianity had ruled 1000 years, 3% of the population could read and write (not including slaves)

While that may be true, it wasn't actually Christianity (or any other religion) that caused that change. Let's stick to what's relevant, please.

[Postcard73]

How about if the mummified body of Jesus was found in the catacombs beneath the Vatican, a la Tom Robbins' Another Roadside Attraction? I personally doubt that any historical Jesus actually existed, but if he did and his body were found, then it would prove that he never ascended into heaven. I'm not sure how much of an effect this would have, but it's worth mentioning...

[Lonely_Road_Of_Faith]

Originally posted by Postcard73
How about if the mummified body of Jesus was found in the catacombs beneath the Vatican, a la Tom Robbins' Another Roadside Attraction? I personally doubt that any historical Jesus actually existed, but if he did and his body were found, then it would prove that he never ascended into heaven. I'm not sure how much of an effect this would have, but it's worth mentioning...

And how would anybody know for sure if it was even Jesus?

I'm quite sure nobody has Jesus's genetic material on file.

Even if that were the case, lots of people would just ignore the evidence.

LROF

[Wyrdsmyth]

That's an intriguing question. To answer it, I think we need to look at how other religions have died or been eclipsed. Often they either transformed into something different, or were overrun by a new belief.

Religions like Judeo-Christianity, Islam and Buddhism have been enormously popular and durable. They seem to have more psychological appeal than their predecessors. Religions like this seem to press a lot of the right "psychological buttons," somehow. And they have shown they can have cross-cultural appeal and implant themselves and flourish in alien cultures. They have enormous marketing power and psychological safeguards. For example, Christianity has the popular doctrine that you are punished not for being bad, but for doubting the faith. That is a psychological safeguard that keeps many people from even doubting or questioning, or exploring other possibilities.

I think widespread education could eventually kill off Christianity and all religion, or reduce it to the fringes. We are making headway, but are far from that point just yet. The real question is: "What can kill off a belief in such things as the supernatural, ghosts, gods, astrology, leprechauns... etc." List the whole gamut of stuff believe because they've been brainwashed, indoctrinated, or threatened into believing, or simply believe out of ignorance. What can kill beliefs in invisible, intelligent forces that are affecting humanity -- but are entirely undetectable and unverifiable by skeptics? Well, pointing that out to everyone, for one thing. An open society, where nothing is above being questioned or doubted, spells the death of superstition.

[crocodile deathroll]

An asteriod impact.

[Godless Wonder]

Originally posted by Lonely_Road_Of_Faith
And how would anybody know for sure if it was even Jesus?

I'm quite sure nobody has Jesus's genetic material on file.

Even if that were the case, lots of people would just ignore the evidence.

LROF
Well, maybe these people. (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8611/page2.htm) have his DNA, or at least maybe they want it real bad.

Just for the sake of argument, suppose they found the actual, real (corporeal?) corpse of Jesus (nevermind those tons of cannibalized jebus wafers), yet there was no proof, and further, from DNA obtained from the corpse, supposed they did clone it. (I heard they were looking for surrogate mothers... no requirement to be a virgin even.)

So, would a cloned Jesus, (presuming that it is in fact the historical Jesus) be supernatural, or just a regular human, who happened to have the same DNA as supernatural-Jesus? Sort of like Jesus identical-but-non-supernatural twin?

And supposing he's non-supernatural. Will that convince anyone of anything wrt Christianity? I can't imagine how it would.

[crocodile deathroll]

If you read the laws of physics as the dogma for your religion, then it is the one religion that would not be destroyed by an asteroid impact.

CDR

[Lonely_Road_Of_Faith]

Originally posted by Godless Wonder
Well, maybe these people. (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8611/page2.htm) have his DNA, or at least maybe they want it real bad.

Just for the sake of argument, suppose they found the actual, real (corporeal?) corpse of Jesus (nevermind those tons of cannibalized jebus wafers), yet there was no proof, and further, from DNA obtained from the corpse, supposed they did clone it. (I heard they were looking for surrogate mothers... no requirement to be a virgin even.)

So, would a cloned Jesus, (presuming that it is in fact the historical Jesus) be supernatural, or just a regular human, who happened to have the same DNA as supernatural-Jesus? Sort of like Jesus identical-but-non-supernatural twin?

And supposing he's non-supernatural. Will that convince anyone of anything wrt Christianity? I can't imagine how it would.

LOL I remember hearing something or other about some group wanting to clone Jesus, in fact it was on a Christian message board that I found it. Somebody was trying to say that the "antichrist" would be a clone of Jesus.

Here's a what I had to say...

Hi,
Actually, I don't think the "cloning" of Jesus is biblical. The idea that it could be done is a little to the left of ridiculous. Even if they somehow HAD Jesus's genetic material (Which is very, very doubtful) it'd be 2000 years old. DNA and RNA strands decay, given that much time. Even if the cloning WAS successful,,,they would have somebody who looked like Jesus, maybe even sounded like him,,,but he certainly wouldn't be Jesus. Even in science fiction (lol) cloning does not confer the personality or anything more then the basic mental attributes of the individual who's being cloned.

For example, in a Star Trek episode, some Klingon priests cloned Kahless (the Klingon god-figure) but all they ended up with was a normal klingon who looked like him, talked like him, and maybe even knew some of the same stuff. The people who disbelieved him most were themselves Klingons (one asked a question he couldn't answer and Lt.Worf beat him in a duel.) Thus, it was proven that Kahless was a clone, and not the real thing, because the real one would've known the answers and won the fight.

That's science fiction, but I suspect in Real Life if somebody tried something similar, the same sort of thing would happen. There's lots of questions only Jesus could answer, and lots of things only Jesus could do. The clone WOULDN'T be able to heal the sick or raise the dead. The clone WOULDN'T know answers like "What were the names of the two theives Jesus was crucified with" and the real Jesus would.

Somebody commented on relics,,,as far as I know, there's no relics that can be authentically ascribed to Jesus (Perhaps because he rose from the dead, i.e no body left to get relics from)
Seriously though, most of the 'relics' found in Catholic churches for example have nothing to do with Jesus. Rather they're the relics of various saints.

Ah well, maybe they'll clone St. Patrick by mistake, and the world will have the luck of the Irish, for as long as Mr. Clone is around,,,

hehehe.

Like I said, the very idea is crazy.

~~~
I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Said I, Here am I, send me. ~Isaiah 6:8

Diligentia et Accuratio (Diligence and Accuracy)~ Motto of the 379th Bomb Wing, Strategic Air Command, USAF

[crocodile deathroll]

Today Xtianity presents itself as being "nice" the Salvation Army the Brotherhood of St Lawrence etc, but 400 years ago it was more punitive, burning witches and heretics at the stake, with and the crusades and the Spanish Conquistadors. Xtianity practiced the way it used to be then would not last and quickly die out to just a few zealous diehards like some of our fundies. So for more popular following it needs to evolve to something that is more palatable to its potential believers. That is the only way it can survive in the long run.

[luvluv]

You know, a handful of us manage to be both educated and Christian. What makes you think they are mutally exclusive?

I don't think that the atheism of the upper echelons of academia has anything to do with education itself, but with academic culture. A few hundred years ago, the most educated people in the world were Christians. Indeed, the church was the only place where one could acquire a good education. This wasn't necessarily because with increasing education came understanding that "Christianity has been proven true." It was because Christians were the ones doing the educating.

And now atheists are doing the educating, and predictable results have followed.

[luvluv]

When Christianity was new, 30% of the population of Rome could read and write (including slaves).

When Christianity had ruled 1000 years, 3% of the population could read and write (not including slaves)

Post hoc ergo proctor hoc.

(If you folks want to spread logic, you might want to start around here.)

[never been there]

Originally posted by luvluv
Post hoc ergo proctor hoc.

(If you folks want to spread logic, you might want to start around here.)

You're right, of course, it doesn't prove anything, but that doesn't mean it isn't suspicious.

[Tenpudo]

Originally posted by NonHomogenized
About the only reliable method I can think of is death. Hopefully, a decent education system will appear, and take care of the problem within a few generations.

:eek:
What kind of "education" system did you have in mind??

:p

[Evolutionist]

as an atheist, i find someones belief in a god etc to be a total non-issue. it simply isn't relevent to anything of any worth i can think of. pushing their beliefs on others is something i obviusly take exception to, and so do most other people on the boards.

personally, although i can see how many would see removing religion as a good thing, i can't help imagining a hypothetical future where religion was removed over night. can you imagine the disasters that would quickly follow? there are people out there who honestly see nothing wrong with killing, and going on a riot etc when theres no god to make objective moral rules etc. assuming that they are honest about it, such a reality would be a nightmare.

theism has its uses, and if it were to be removed, it would have to be slowly- some people are simply too psychologically weak to accept living without belief in an afterlife, or justice after death, or even a "meaning of life" without some magic man up in the sky to dictate it for them. and i don't mean that offensively, although it does look like it.

[rfwu]

The only way to truly kill off any religion is to kill off all of its followers, just like the way they did it in the old days!

[Gothic_J]

that just makes martyrs. nah, you surrond fundies with educated logical thinkers, and that will eliminate all but the hard core thinkers.

its easy to die for your religion - not for a cult youve been shown is irrational, untrue, and rather evil.

[Kenneth]

Why bother?

Christianity is dying or is mutating into something else.

Proof#1: There is a thread in the GRD about priests clamoring for Rome to allow married men into the priesthood.

Proof#2: The Episcopalian has just allowed homosexual to serve as pastor.

Christianity may not vanish from the earth, but, one thing is for sure, todays Christian will not resemble the Christians of tomorrow.

[MooWare]

Originally posted by luvluv
You know, a handful of us manage to be both educated and Christian. What makes you think they are mutally exclusive?

I don't think that the atheism of the upper echelons of academia has anything to do with education itself, but with academic culture. A few hundred years ago, the most educated people in the world were Christians. Indeed, the church was the only place where one could acquire a good education. This wasn't necessarily because with increasing education came understanding that "Christianity has been proven true." It was because Christians were the ones doing the educating.

And now atheists are doing the educating, and predictable results have followed.

A few hundred years ago most educated people were christians because they didn't dare be anything else. Lest they be tortured, brutlized and executed by the loving church.

[Tenpudo]

Originally posted by luvluv
And now atheists are doing the educating, and predictable results have followed.
Originally posted by luvluv
Post hoc ergo proctor hoc.

Thank you for taking the time to refute your own fallacies.
It saves the rest of us the trouble.

[Atheist Crusader]

I don't know about general education, but perhaps specific education about various psychological and historical reasons for religion could at least cause some of them to doubt. I am thinking of books like How We Believe by Michael Shermer. I am going to test how well talking to people about it works... but as most of the overtly religious people at my school are Mormon... I don't know how well it is going to work. Strangely enough, the Mormons that go to my school are some of the smartest people there... Go figure... anyway, I just thought maybe using some specific books in conjunction with each other would cause them to think for themselves that maybe their religion is wrong, rather than just telling them it was wrong. The fall of Christianity will probably have to happen one person at a time, not through any mass education programs.

[premjan]

Isn't that just paganism (worship of nature)?

[MooWare]

Originally posted by Atheist Crusader
I don't know about general education, but perhaps specific education about various psychological and historical reasons for religion could at least cause some of them to doubt. .

A good many of religious folks are simply brainwashed or wired to believe. no matter what you do, what you say or how hard you try they will refuse to listen, or refuse to consider the fact that there are no gods, and never have been.

Then there will always be the religious fundy faction that shouts the loudest.

You know, it's funny but you would think that Xtians or whatever religion would be happy at thier perception that the world is falling apart. That puts them closer to thier beliefs that they will be taken to meet their manufacturer.

This is my view of talking to hardcore believers. :banghead:

[The_Unknown_Banana]

Maybe we should start by getting them to stamp "Christianity is a theory, not a fact, and should be critically considered" inside every bible :rolleyes:

[Yangja Isuko]

napalm

[MrFrosty]

My first ever post on IIDB asked what would absolute proof of ET intelligence do to world religions -- my intention had been to find a method of killing off religion (inc. Xianity). One of the general answers tended to be that religions would encompass the newfound revelation and continue existing in an altered form.

Any type of alien evidence that would point toward a divine creator would simply be siezed upon and the BS mill would continue churning safe in the knowledge it will survive. Religion is social control on a huge scale so, as some have indicated already, removing Xianity completely would simply move some of those believers elsewhere.

Here is the link to the thread: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48500&highlight=aliens

[crisisGirl]

i'm with mooware on this one. if education could defeat fundamentalism, we wouldn't have this ongoing "debate" about evolution.
although it has done indescribable harm throughout the history of humanity, there is some benefit to "one true faith"-ism. in a diverse culture such as the united states, the perpetual scraps that theists have with one another helps (at least somewhat) to keep the various religions at bay, thus preventing a complete theocracy. (note the word "complete.") (as an example, i've seen many xians want to condemn atheists because "happy holidays" has replaced "merry christmas" in some places. in truth, this resulted from jews, muslims, christians, and other religions all scrapping with one another. atheists had little, if anything, to do with it.)
one of the secrets to christianity's long life is the delusion of persecution. anyone who has been to RaptureReady has seen the forum entitled "we that struggle." fundies simply continue to believe that they are martyrs, regardless of reality. (anyone picking up a dollar bill in america can see just how "persecuted" xians are. :rolleyes: )

[Harumi]

Why kill off any religion?

I see some people mentioning education and the like, but in my opinion, that would hardly matter.

Many of my friends are highly educated, liberal Christians. God is someone they can take comfort in. It is a being who they can look up to for inspiration, help them in their time of need, and encourage them to do better in their life.

At least, that's what God is like for my Catholic godmother. She is a lovely person, never tries to convert anyone, and accepts my atheism with no bitterness.

I think at best education may tune down the fundies and create more liberal, open, and nicer religious people. But psychologically, there will always be people who need comfort and can't find any, and when that happens, the answer is religion.

If that's all it is and nothing else, what's the harm?

[MooWare]

[i]

If that's all it is and nothing else, what's the harm?

Unfortunately, that NOT all it is.. IF someone wants to believe in God or Gods that's fine with me, they can believe in the Easter Bunny for all I really care. The problem lies when they insist on prayer in school, when they insist on having creation theory taught in public schools If they want to teach thier own kids this that's fine, however, I don't want them teaching my children thier "facts" based on thier bible, with no questions asked.

the fundies would like to censor and edit everything you read see and hear.

Think I'm being too dramatic on the last statement. Sit back and don't do anythng. Then see what happens.

Living in an christian theocracy would be no better than living under the Taliban.

I belive in freedom of religion, and those who wish to practice it.. However, Religion belongs at home. Not in the public square.

Ok, I'm done ranting..

[Godless Wonder]

If that's all it is and nothing else, what's the harm?Are you serious? Read some history. Watch the news. That's never all it is.

Faith is the single most harmful invention of mankind, in my opinion. Faith is ignorance disguised as wisdom. As Mark Twain said, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so". Another quote: "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (not sure who to attribute this quote to)

Think about what motivates most of the terrorists you see in the news, and I don't mean just the stuff that happened on 9/11. Think about David Koresh in Waco, the I.R.A., Timothy McVeigh. Japanese kamikaze pilots in WWII, off the top of my head. (It occurs to me that I would really like to see a more-or-less complete list of "faithful perpetrators") Are GW Bush's actions and decisions influenced by his faith? If so, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Are votors influenced by their faith? The Supreme Court?

There was a recent show on TV (might have been 60 minutes, or 48 hours) about suicide bombers in the Middle East, and they talked to one who had been captured when his bomb failed to go off. It was quite clear that these suicide bombers were not insane. They were just very religious, very faithful. Just full of faith.

[Harumi]

Oh please,

You mean to tell me that all my liberal friends are suddenly going to try and censor textbooks, burn Harry Potter books, and blow up abortion clinics? I suggest you make a few more liberal Christian friends.

I have many who aren't like that at all. And there are examples of people like that here at the II. Do you mean to tell me Helen SL is all for enforcing prayer in school? I don't think so.

People will always need comfort. God can provide that. And if going to a religion for ONLY the sake of giving yourself peace (or in my godmother's case, the strength to take care of her mentally defficient son) I don't see what's wrong with it. Hell, I need a little comfort sometimes. I just don't turn to an imaginary being. Some people do, and that's fine. They don't tell me I'm wrong, and I don't tell them they're wrong. It's called respect.

Just because there are Christians that will try to force their beliefs on you doesn't mean that there aren't any who just try to live life peacefully in the best way they can.

I don't believe religion will ever be fully eradicated. All we can hope for is that people will gradually become more liberal, using religion as a source of comfort, a group coming together because they happen to share the same moral beliefs, a special community without feeling the need to impose on others.

Do any of you seriously think that people like them are a threat?

[Proctors_Gambit]

The simplest way we can acheive the death of Christianity is for humans to overcome their own mortality.

The very basis of Christianity is what happens to man after they die.

The concept of death itself is the factor most responsible for continued Christianity in our society.

Many people are afraid of dying, scared of damnation, need hope in a life beyond this one, both for them and their dead loved ones.

At some point in the future, maybe not for hundreds or thousands of years, people will be able to be kept alive indefinately, either as functioning humans or in some kind of stasis.
Death may become a choice that people can make if they no longer want to live.

With no mortality, mankind has no need for Christianity.

-Gambit

[Godless Wonder]

Originally posted by Harumi
Oh please,

You mean to tell me that all my liberal friends are suddenly going to try and censor textbooks, burn Harry Potter books, and blow up abortion clinics? I suggest you make a few more liberal Christian friends.
Not most of them. But some of them, a very few of them. Look at what happened in Nazi Germany. If it had not in fact happened, nobody would have believed that such a thing could be possible. Surely someone would stand up and not allow it. Yet it was allowed. It did happen. Faith is the same kind of thinking that may (not will, but may) lead to such things. Faith is bad stuff.
[...]Do any of you seriously think that people like them are a threat?[/QUOTE]
Most of them? No. Any of them? Absolutely. Can I eradicate faith? No. Would the world be better off without the concept of faith. Absolutely. I am just trying to be one that stands up and says "this is bad."

[Biff the unclean]

Originally posted by Godless Wonder
Most of them? No. Any of them? Absolutely.

I can't help but notice on these boards that when we have fire and brimstone Xians on the same thread with liberal Xians the F&B Xians will take the L's to task for being too wishy-washy. But when the F&B's come out with some truely hate saturated stuff the liberals don't say word one. They might be nice "house-broken" Christians themselves but they are also enablers for the dangerous sort. When the time comes to take a stand with the Humanists, who are Atheists, or with the Fundys, they choose "faith".

[Harumi]

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
I can't help but notice on these boards that when we have fire and brimstone Xians on the same thread with liberal Xians the F&B Xians will take the L's to task for being too wishy-washy. But when the F&B's come out with some truely hate saturated stuff the liberals don't say word one. They might be nice "house-broken" Christians themselves but they are also enablers for the dangerous sort. When the time comes to take a stand with the Humanists, who are Atheists, or with the Fundys, they choose "faith".

Of course, there are exceptions. My Christian friend took a fundy to task for declaring that lesbians and gays should go to hell. She also told off someone for praising Pat Robertson and their ilk.

Perhaps it may be because I live in a very liberal area, where fundies are looked down upon as illogical and stupid, and atheists can walk openly without being told off, sometimes they are even respected.

I don't believe that the faith my godmother uses to give herself strength and patience is a bad thing. Nor do I believe that belief in a god would either. Surely deists aren't psychos are they?

I do draw the line though on blind faith, and that is the one I think you guys are referring to. Blind faith does need to be eradicated, and the only way to do that is through education.

[Rational BAC]

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
I can't help but notice on these boards that when we have fire and brimstone Xians on the same thread with liberal Xians the F&B Xians will take the L's to task for being too wishy-washy. But when the F&B's come out with some truely hate saturated stuff the liberals don't say word one. They might be nice "house-broken" Christians themselves but they are also enablers for the dangerous sort. When the time comes to take a stand with the Humanists, who are Atheists, or with the Fundys, they choose "faith".

That is true on both sides Biff-----

I have read some really off the wall stuff from some atheists on this forum. And everyone just sort of looks the other way. (Probably the other atheists think it is some kid in high school and don't want to discourage his atheism by dumping on him)----good enough reason I suppose.

Many times I have thought about answering a Fundy- who just posted something ridiculous------but long before I could compose anything, there are multiple atheist (and much more knowledgable) replies saying things much better than I ever could.

My fault perhaps for not jumping on the pile.

But I don't like to gang up on anyone taking it from all directions.

I do notice that some pretty intelligent theists just give it up and leave the forum after being ganged up on a few times. And that is a shame.

I have a pretty tough skin. Real hard to get rid of me. But even I try to stay away anymore from posting situations where I have to answer 5 different people at once. Can wear you out.

[Biff the unclean]

Many times I have thought about answering a Fundy- who just posted something ridiculous------but long before I could compose anything, there are multiple atheist (and much more knowledgable) replies saying things much better than I ever could.

My fault perhaps for not jumping on the pile.

Jumping on the pile?
For someone who is so down on egotism in others you never seem to miss a opportunity to flatter yourself.

'Silence is consent' Consistent silence in the face of misanthropy is consistent consent.

But I don't like to gang up on anyone taking it from all directions.
If, and only if, they are calling themselves "Christian."

I have a pretty tough skin. Real hard to get rid of me. But even I try to stay away anymore from posting situations where I have to answer 5 different people at once. Can wear you out.
This is an "infidel" board. You knew that when you joined. It says so at the top of every page. What would lead you to think that a lot of the people posting here weren't Infidels? Why, when you promote your personal vague form of Christianity on an Infidel board, would you think the Infidels wouldn't have something to say about it?

[Harumi]

Rational BAC has a point however.

I remember one infidel on this board who went so far as to say that all Christians have the dream of destroying atheists.

That's like Christians believing that all atheists are demon/devil worshipping people who are out to kill them in my opinion.

Although I did respond to such a ridiculous post, I found myself alone in doing so.

It's the same everywhere people. We tend to be silent when people believe the 'same' thing we do. I'm not fond of it, but that's just what happens.

[Biff the unclean]

Originally posted by Harumi
It's the same everywhere people. We tend to be silent when people believe the 'same' thing we do. I'm not fond of it, but that's just what happens.

Well that is the point. Our Liberals are always silent when a Fundy rants. Yet they have not problem speaking up to Humanists. They support the Fundies but since they smile while they do you think it's alright.

[Harumi]

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Well that is the point. Our Liberals are always silent when a Fundy rants. Yet they have not problem speaking up to Humanists. They support the Fundies but since they smile while they do you think it's alright.

Then we atheists should speak out against other atheists who make preposterous claims toward any religion, don't you agree?

[Grimly Fiendish]

Those who sell themselves to idols, irrespective of the shape of those idols, seek only the sleep of reason. Gods are bosses which can never be overthrown by the usual application of firearms or sanctions or elections. The way to destroy a god is to cut it down mercilessly, hacking off it's heads via political will and dissolving them with fact, reason and compassion.

It is abhorrent to me that so many people in our modern society reject the gifts of fact and reason and instead discard their freedom, self-amputating their existential agency to be spoonfed gruel by the merchants of superstition. Especially abominable when those elective slaves reject the superstitions of their parents as archaic and invent others which they feel enable them to be wholly human, carving new idols to cast the world into shadow. It indicates a denial of life. These people must be dragged from the Cave, for their own sakes and for the sake of our children.

Respectfully,

Grimly Fiendish.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Originally posted by Evolutionist
personally, although i can see how many would see removing religion as a good thing, i can't help imagining a hypothetical future where religion was removed over night. can you imagine the disasters that would quickly follow? there are people out there who honestly see nothing wrong with killing, and going on a riot etc when theres no god to make objective moral rules etc. assuming that they are honest about it, such a reality would be a nightmare.

The absence of religion will not lead to the absence of morality. We were not gifted morality by idols or book or trees. Morality is ours. We make it.

Respectfully,

Grimly Fiendish.

[Harumi]

Originally posted by Grimly Fiendish
The way to destroy a god is to cut it down mercilessly, hacking off it's heads via political will and dissolving them with fact, reason and compassion.


That has got to be the most oxymoronic sentence I've ever seen.

You're starting the sound like the fundy Christians.

"You are a lying, evil soul with a tongue of a serpent and eyes of a demon, but I love you!"

The reason very few people believe in the Roman/Greek gods wasn't because they were all killed off with reason. It was replaced by other religions.

When communist China finally lifted away the ban that told the people they couldn't worship, millions flocked to the churches. People will always need comfort, and in order to get them away from faith, we need another comfortable, reasonable substitute.

Any suggestions? I was thinking Humanism, or if that can't be helped, even Buddhism. It is the closest atheistic religion I've experienced thus far, although that too has its kinks.

So the people who need faith are cowards. So? It's not your life. Let them be.

Of course, the idea is different for those trying to break down the wall between church and state, but I'm not talking about that right now. I'm merely talking about those people who just live a decent life, but believe in God.

Why do you guys have such a problem with it?

[Rational BAC]

Why do you guys have such a problem with it?

Moderation and tolerance are the best avenues to accomplish anything. We all do have to get along practically speaking.

I have always disagreed with Goldwater's "extremism is the best thing since fitted sheets if you are personally certain your shit don't stink" speech.

[Biff the unclean]

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Why do you guys have such a problem with it?


Because it's the same awful fantasy based misanthropic religion that brought us the dark ages and the Inquisition etc. wrapped up in bright new happy packaging. The same lies, the same degrations but this time told with a happy faced "my buddy Jesus™" Pay no attention to the last two thousand years this is Brand New Lemon Fresh Christianity (as seen on TV)

[Rational BAC]

You do not think that most all Christians realize that mistakes have been made in the past Biff?

You do not think that Christianity today would not tolerate an Inquisition?-------(I know, a double negative but I think you know what I am saying.)

Christianity today is very mellow---very tolerant.

--(allowing of course for the relatively few Fundy Christians who make a whole bunch of noise------- but usually end up alienating not only atheists but most all mainstream Christians with their severity and intolerance.)

The sky is not falling for atheists. Mainstream Christianity is in no danger of giving in to the loony fringe.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Originally posted by Harumi
That has got to be the most oxymoronic sentence I've ever seen.

You need to read more.

The statement which you highlight contains no oxymorons. It's metaphor has complete internal congruence. The worst that may be accurately said of this statement is that it is a little on the purple side.

Respectfully,

Grimly Fiendish.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Originally posted by Harumi
You're starting the sound like the fundy Christians.

You may feel that is so yet it is not so. I use language as I choose. The use of metaphor is not restricted to fundamentalist christians.

Respectfully,

Grimly Fiendish.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Originally posted by Harumi
The reason very few people believe in the Roman/Greek gods wasn't because they were all killed off with reason. It was replaced by other religions.

I did not say that the GraecoRomano religions were banished by Reason. Get your facts straight, young man.

Respectfully,

Grimly Fiendish.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Originally posted by Harumi
Any suggestions? I was thinking Humanism, or if that can't be helped, even Buddhism.

Humanism is covert religion and cannot be considered a practical philosophy.

Buddhism, owning no belief in an Ideal self and requiring no gods, has my approval.

Respectfully,

Grimly Fiendish.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Originally posted by Harumi
So the people who need faith are cowards. So? It's not your life. Let them be.

Should they wish to live in an enclosed community then I would let them be. As things stand religious and superstitious belief stalks the world like an existential plague, poisoning ethics, ontology and epistemology with it's toxins of irrationality. Religious and superstitious belief enslaves our children and erodes civilisation by attacking the virtues of reason and compassion. While religious and superstitious beliefs are promoted so should they be actively opposed by those who love civilisation and are dedicated to their fellow man and the future of their children.

Respectfully,

Grimly Fiendish.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Originally posted by Harumi
Why do you guys have such a problem with it?

Religious and superstitious belief is antifreedom, antihuman and anticivilisation.

Religious and superstitious belief is cultural junk. We are best rid of it.

Respectfully,

Grimly Fiendish.

[shome42]

Originally posted by Harumi
People will always need comfort. God can provide that. And if going to a religion for ONLY the sake of giving yourself peace (or in my godmother's case, the strength to take care of her mentally defficient son) I don't see what's wrong with it. Hell, I need a little comfort sometimes.

Here's the problem-- you're interchanging "religion" and "God."

I feel the same way as you about "God." If someone wants to talk to their imaginary friend because it gives them comfort, then I see nothing wrong with that.

However, God does not equal religion. Religion is the problem, and it's also superflous if you're saying that people should turn to spirituality for comfort.

The problem with religion is that 1) it always turns into some sort of a political force and 2) that political force is either being directed by ancient dogma or men who claim to be the voice of God.

How can we expect to advance as a civilization when huge chunks of voters make decisions according to their ancient holy book of choice? When leaders are controling this voting chunk by saying it's "God's will." When religion teaches people to not think?

Religion is about control, plain and simple. Religion is a tool used by leaders. Deism or some other pure, personal belief is more beneficial for people's emotional health than any religion.

[Rational BAC]

I think "religion" in the sense of organized dogmatic religion is in serious decline, especially among the younger generation.

People are trying to find their own individual metaphysical way.

Actually these are very good times for atheists. Tolerance of divurgent opinions is readily accepted these days as compared to yesteryear.

[Harumi]

Originally posted by Grimly Fiendish
I did not say that the GraecoRomano religions were banished by Reason. Get your facts straight, young man.

Respectfully,

Grimly Fiendish.

Get your facts straight. I am a young woman.

[Harumi]

Originally posted by shome42
Here's the problem-- you're interchanging "religion" and "God."

I feel the same way as you about "God." If someone wants to talk to their imaginary friend because it gives them comfort, then I see nothing wrong with that.

However, God does not equal religion. Religion is the problem, and it's also superflous if you're saying that people should turn to spirituality for comfort.

The problem with religion is that 1) it always turns into some sort of a political force and 2) that political force is either being directed by ancient dogma or men who claim to be the voice of God.

How can we expect to advance as a civilization when huge chunks of voters make decisions according to their ancient holy book of choice? When leaders are controling this voting chunk by saying it's "God's will." When religion teaches people to not think?

Religion is about control, plain and simple. Religion is a tool used by leaders. Deism or some other pure, personal belief is more beneficial for people's emotional health than any religion.

I fail to see the difference. For many of my Christian friends, God is their religion. They do not care about the dogma that the church their family goes to espouses. I fail to see the harmfulness of such a belief.

True, there are many religions out there that are about control, but to try and destroy them, and using such a term, will, in the end, only alienate more religious people and make them turn further back into religion.

I espouse understanding, tolerance, and compassion. I have no intention of destroying anything. This type of talk is precisely what makes liberals hate atheists so much. It is this type of talk that has made my liberal Christian friends look at me sideways.

I am an atheist, and that is all I am. I don't feel the need to destroy any religion. I don't want to. Do I particularly like Christianity? No. But that doesn't give me the right to try and take it away from people, just as it doesn't give Christians the right to knock on our doorsteps and shove bible quotes in our faces.

To try and destroy religion like Grimly Fiendish suggests is like a Christian trying to spread his faith by knocking on doors. I see no difference. Both assume that the other side is wrong, and I find that disrespectful.

But enough of this. I have other things to worry about, such as school, and classes. I'm dropping out of this thread.

Harumi, over and out.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Originally posted by Harumi
I am a young woman.

How pleasant for you.

Respectfully,

Grimly Fiendish.

[SlateGreySky]

"What can cause the death of Christianity?"

What a ridiculously presumptuous and melodramatic question.

I have an equally ridiculous and melodramatic one in response: what could possibly cause the "death" of any of your own belief-forming structures (be they linguistic, cognitive, or behavioral)?

Answer my question, and you'll have the answer to yours.

[andy_d]

Originally posted by Grimly Fiendish
While religious and superstitious beliefs are promoted so should they be actively opposed

<snip>

Religious and superstitious belief is antifreedom


How, exactly, does making others conform to your views make them free? :rolleyes:

[Sci_Fidelity]

Originally posted by Rational BAC:
Actually these are very good times for atheists. Tolerance of divurgent opinions is readily accepted these days as compared to yesteryear

Walk in to a crouded bar in your neck of the woods and yell "I'm an atheist." Go ahead. I dare you. :D