This just in: Bacteria are not alive

[Shpongle]

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=945156&postcount=19

Oh, Winace...

[Viti]

Fungi, Bacteria, and Protoctista have some characteristics of living things, but they are not actually alive. :eek: Holy shit!

[Abacus]

Wait! There's more!

They lack DNA and they do not reproduce in the same way as plants or animals. To consider bacteria "living things", you would have to broaden the definition of "living" to where it includes computers, electricity, and virii, which also are not alive but have some characterisitics of living things.

[pz]

All this by a creationist with this in his sig:

Disclaimer: The above post was made by a Young-Earth Creationist Christian who does not believe in "evidence".

God said it, I believe it, that settles it.


At least he is honestly stupid.

[Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ]

You should ask him how he knows that it was God that said it.

[RufusAtticus]

I don't remember the part of the bible that says that Bacteria lack DNA.

[Utnapishtim]

At least the rest of the posts on that thread disagree with him. It says something that everyone else realizes what a fool this guy is.

[Roller]

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
I don't remember the part of the bible that says that Bacteria lack DNA.

I don't remember anything anywhere that says that :)

[Viti]

Okay, my account at CF is seriously screwed up. I get an Explorer error every time I go there and it shuts down. Sometimes it takes 2-3 minutes sometimes within 30 secs. It happens on both my work and home computers, though they run on different ISPs, OSs and even different versions of Explorer. It ONLY happens at Christian Forums.

I have cleared my cookies, logged out completely, cleared my history and tried accessing the IP instead of the URL. What could be causing this? It's been an issue for a month now and it's annoying. Lunachick opened a bugs thread for me, but the admins just said to clear cookies..I have done that like 40 times.

[wade-w]

Originally posted by LadyShea
Okay, my account at CF is seriously screwed up. I get an Explorer error every time I go there and it shuts down. Sometimes it takes 2-3 minutes sometimes within 30 secs. It happens on both my work and home computers, though they run on different ISPs, OSs and even different versions of Explorer. It ONLY happens at Christian Forums.

I have cleared my cookies, logged out completely, cleared my history and tried accessing the IP instead of the URL. What could be causing this? It's been an issue for a month now and it's annoying. Lunachick opened a bugs thread for me, but the admins just said to clear cookies..I have done that like 40 times.


If its happening on both computers, then its not your cookies. Its probably not on your end at all. It does indeed sound like there is a problem with your account.

[Doubting Didymus]

Protoctista... studied by protoctologists?

[Meatros]

Originally posted by pz
At least he is honestly stupid.

I wish they all had such sigs....:D

[MortalWombat]

Please tell me that guy is a deliberate troll. How can he not be? I mean, how can a person be that stupid and not die from forgetting how to breathe, let alone learn how to type and get on the internet?

[Late_Cretaceous]

Honestly stupid???
I think the term "willfully stupid" would be more fitting.

This guy actually WANTS to be stupid.

[Persidian]

This is such a weird tangent, but this thread for some reason reminded me of it... Can anybody find me a link to that strange news story last year about the human cancer cells that seemed able to live outside the human body? I know, this has nothing to do with this topic, or probably even evolution, but I seem to recall that story being discussed here...

[Grumpy]

Actually, according to the Bible, plants aren't alive either. You didn't see Noah take any cuttings with him on the Ark, did you?

I have a hard time believing that's not a troll. However, I did once have a chatroom encounter with someone who insisted that bacteria were all the same species. :rolleyes:

The CF thread also correctly notes that fungi, among others, do in fact have DNA. I would hope so, otherwise the Fungi Genome Project (http://www.pasteur.fr/recherche/unites/tcruzi/minoprio/genomics/fungi.htm) has been wasting its time.

Also, I hadn't heard that AIG has abandoned the "micro yes, macro no" argument. There's an apt parody in the CF thread:

Well, OK, we see where macro evolution happens as well, but this evolution never creates any "new information", because to say otherwise is to contradict the Bible.

And we *mean* it this time . . .

And you wonder why non-Christians have a difficult time taking us seriously.

[MortalWombat]

Originally posted by Persidian
This is such a weird tangent, but this thread for some reason reminded me of it... Can anybody find me a link to that strange news story last year about the human cancer cells that seemed able to live outside the human body? I know, this has nothing to do with this topic, or probably even evolution, but I seem to recall that story being discussed here... I'm not quite sure what you are referring to, but cancer cells are grown in flasks and dishes all the time in labs. One of the most common cell lines used in labs all over the world, the HeLa cell line, is derived from a cervical cancer specimen taken more than 30 years ago. Many of the properties of cancer cells make them particularly amenable to growth in culture dishes: immortality, reduced need for serum growth factors, rapid growth, reduced contact inhibition (they don't stop dividing when they grow to a confluent monolayer like primary cell lines do).

[RufusAtticus]

Originally posted by Persidian
This is such a weird tangent, but this thread for some reason reminded me of it... Can anybody find me a link to that strange news story last year about the human cancer cells that seemed able to live outside the human body? I know, this has nothing to do with this topic, or probably even evolution, but I seem to recall that story being discussed here...

They're called HeLa cells and have been around for 40 years (?). They were to first cells that could be sucessfully cultured and were so great at multiplying that they often found their way into other cultures. Michael Gold wrote a short book on the problem of HeLa cell contamination.

[faust]

The history of HeLa cells is fascinating. FYI they came from Henrietta Lacks who died of the cervical cancer, hence the name.

[Calzaer]

Bascally, as I understand it, an Afro Caribbean woman from Britain several decades ago was found to have cervical cancer, which eventually killed her. Amazingly, the biopsy (little bits of the cancer for testing) they took started to live and breed in culture indefinetly, something no human cell is capable of. It lives as a seperate organism, is morphologically unrecognisable as having originated from humans, cannot interbreed with humans, fulfilling the requirements for all definitions of speciation. In fact, it comes under the classification of Eukaryotes now, so to all those creationists who say that you can't 'get a cat from a dog'... this is better than that. This is more like getting a cat from a mushroom. Prokaryote to Eukaryote is more than just "speciation", it's "KINGDOMation".

[Persidian]

Thanks for giving me the name of the HeLa cells. It's always hard to look up something when you can't recall the name. :D

Edit: Or can't spell.

[Roland98]

They lack DNA and they do not reproduce in the same way as plants or animals. To consider bacteria "living things", you would have to broaden the definition of "living" to where it includes computers, electricity, and virii, which also are not alive but have some characterisitics of living things.

Oh my, then all those nice people at TIGR sure have wasted a lot of time sequencing the non-DNA of many pathogens...who wants to break the news to them? :rolleyes:

And can someone explain to me the fundie logic in which he moves from bacteria to computers and electricity? :eek:

[Derec]

Originally posted by Roland98
Oh my, then all those nice people at TIGR sure have wasted a lot of time sequencing the non-DNA of many pathogens...who wants to break the news to them? :rolleyes:


Hmm we can always suggest to the fundie in question to do it his/herself. I would love to see that reply. :)


And can someone explain to me the fundie logic in which he moves from bacteria to computers and electricity? :eek:

Fundie logic? Does not compute.

UMoC

[Doubting Didymus]

Originally posted by Roland98
And can someone explain to me the fundie logic in which he moves from bacteria to computers and electricity? :eek:

Yes. I think I can do that.

First, ask yourself what is alive and what is not. If you take your answer from most textbooks, you'll be answering 'bactria on up are alive, viruses on down are not alive.' Now the question is why?

It's true that you can point to a large handful of fundamental things that place bacteria under our current definitions of life (the most glaring being respiration), but that definition is an artifice of human thinkers. We find it useful to draw the line at bacteria, because viruses are really just a simple collection of molecules and are only barely distinguishable from unorganised matter. What i'm trying to get across is that there is no hard line in nature that delineates living from dead, and any line we draw is going to be largely for arbitrary or utilitarian purposes.

So what is the fundamentalist in question thinking when they draw the line at plants? Well, they are envisioning bacteria and protists and, quite rightly, seeing that these little unicellular guys are not in posession of a mind. They are unthinking automata that fundamentally run on electricity. So what if they respire and replicate? they still aren't any more 'alive' (under the definition of this fundamentalist) than computers, which are also mindless and run on electricity. So whats this magic property that is the exclusive property of animals and plants?

Why, it's our old friend the soul of course.

[acidphos]

It lives as a seperate organism, is morphologically unrecognisable as having originated from humans

IMO this is not a big deal. The vast majority of the time you can't tell the origin of a cell when it is in culture. This is true for normal and transformed cells...

cannot interbreed with humans, fulfilling the requirements for all definitions of speciation.

Why would you expcet a cell line to be able to interbreed? Does isolating a primary culture of monocytes from a peritoneal gavage also count as a speciation event?


In fact, it comes under the classification of Eukaryotes now, so to all those creationists who say that you can't 'get a cat from a dog'... this is better than that. This is more like getting a cat from a mushroom. Prokaryote to Eukaryote is more than just "speciation", it's "KINGDOMation".

Ummm both humans and HeLa are both eukaryotes and always were? This is nothing like a speciation event, its a human cell with exceptionally screwy gene regulation. I would be lots of money that all HeLa cells in culture now are significantly different from the primary culture, but it is no way nearly as large of a difference as you are trying to state. At best it is drift from culture conditions.

[Roland98]

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus
Yes. I think I can do that.

<snip>


Wow, you really have been spending too much time around fundies.

Good post though--guess I see the possible train of thought.

[RufusAtticus]

For me the distinction between biolgical life and organic molecules is the ability to respond to environmental stimuli. For me, viruses are not really alive. They exist on the edge.

[Calzaer]

Ummm both humans and HeLa are both eukaryotes and always were?

Terminology fluke. These former human cells are now bacteria. Still "cat from a mushroom".

Go ahead, show me a human cell that can live and reproduce in a culture as a bacteria and have all the relevant properties of bacteria without actually being bacteria. There was a vast mutation here. This is far bigger than a speciation event. Human cells almost spontaneously turned into bacteria.

I'd also like to point out that HeLa is certainly more independantly "alive" than that king of controversies - the human fetus.

[Shpongle]

I just received an IM from the person whose post I linked to, suggesting I violated CF forum rules, not to mention U.S. law (is there a U.S. law that prohibits posting links?).

But they do not appreciate being mocked and ridiculed for their comments there.

That is all.

edit: Apparently, I did not break any of CF's rules. Still not sure about U.S. law...

There's also a thread about it at CF: http://www.christianforums.com/t52274

[WinAce]

From my admittedly limited reading, I call BS on the "Copyright Law" crap. I've done a bit of analysis on it over here (http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/fundies/fstdt_faq.htm#legal).

First, let's make one thing clear. Yes, any material a person composes is copyrighted, whether they apply for an official document stating so or not.

With that out of the way, Section 107 of the United States Copyright Law (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107), titled 'Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use', outlines available exceptions to copyright. When trying to determine whether something fits under Fair Use exemptions to reproduction, these criteria are employed:


What is this being used for? Non-profit, educational, satire, etc. use of copyrighted material is treated less stringently than the commercial equivalent.
What, exactly, is the copyrighted work? Obviously, The Matrix Reloaded will be higher up on the rank of copyright infringement protection than a post by Billy Bob on his Aunt Wanda's sheep-farming discussion forum.
How much of the work was actually copied? A short excerpt from a cookbook for use on a specialized recipe webpage might fall under fair use law; copying down an entire chapter might be trickier.
What effect does the copying have on the market value of the original? A no-brainer--if people download a hot new video game off the Internet instead of going to buy it, the company loses out on legitimate income.

Dayton's post referenced here is:

1. Being quoted used for satire and, at best, education on the illogic of fundamentalism.
2. About bacteria not being alive; it's pretty much equal in quality to a limerick in a bathroom stall.
3. Quoted only in part, with the funny section highlighted.
4. Initially worthless, so copying won't make it any less valuable.

Any lawyers here who could confirm or falsify my analysis? ;)

[Shpongle]

Excellent analysis there, Winace. I shall now sleep soundly knowing I should not expect a team of crack lawyers with a subpoena on my doorstep tomorrow.

[RufusAtticus]

Originally posted by Pete Harcoff
I just received an IM from the person whose post I linked to, suggesting I violated CF forum rules, not to mention U.S. law (is there a U.S. law that prohibits posting links?).

Remember the source of this accusation. I bet his grasp of the law is as good as his grasp of biology. Hint: links are no more copyrighted than postal addresses.

[Shpongle]

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
Remember the source of this accusation. I bet his grasp of the law is as good as his grasp of biology. Hint: links are no more copyrighted than postal addresses.

Oh, I know. I was going for deadpan sarcasm in part of that post, but left out the <sarcasm> tags.

Though I wonder if anyone has ever been sued over defamation of character on the Internet...

[acidphos]

Originally posted by Calzaer
[B]Terminology fluke. These former human cells are now bacteria. Still "cat from a mushroom".

Go ahead, show me a human cell that can live and reproduce in a culture as a bacteria and have all the relevant properties of bacteria without actually being bacteria. There was a vast mutation here. This is far bigger than a speciation event. Human cells almost spontaneously turned into bacteria.


So HeLa are now prokaryotic with 16S and 23S ribosomes, no chromatin, no organelles, a lack of MHC molecules, presence of defensins, major chromosomal rearrangment into operons and a circular genome with no introns or splice sites, etc... etc...?

You have no clue what you are talking about. There are literally thousands of immortalized cell lines, that "can live and reproduce in a culture as a bacteria "- check out the ATCC catalog for starters.

If anything they are more protist like than bacterial

[Arikay]

From what Dayton said on CF, he may be registering here to come here. :)

He has apparently ignored my suggesting that I PMed to him after the whole DNA thing to educate himself. After that suggestion, he again posted one of his "I know what evolution is and that its false, I believe in only gods words" posts and procceded to mess it up. So if he has ignored the suggestion to educate himself, it will probably be a slaughter if he comes here. :)

At least I know he can learn, as he seems to have learned that AIG isnt too reliable, although he still hasnt accepted that they lie, only that they "error" :D

All A good example of why Ignorace is not always a good thing. :D

[DMB]

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus
So whats this magic property that is the exclusive property of animals and plants?

Why, it's our old friend the soul of course.
DD: do fundies think carrots have souls?

[Roland98]

Originally posted by Calzaer
Terminology fluke. These former human cells are now bacteria. Still "cat from a mushroom".

Go ahead, show me a human cell that can live and reproduce in a culture as a bacteria and have all the relevant properties of bacteria without actually being bacteria. There was a vast mutation here. This is far bigger than a speciation event. Human cells almost spontaneously turned into bacteria.

I'd also like to point out that HeLa is certainly more independantly "alive" than that king of controversies - the human fetus.

Um, huh? Maybe I'm grossly misunderstanding you, but you're saying that HeLa cells are basically bacteria? :confused: HeLa cells are essentially the same as any other immortalized cell line, be they mouse, African green monkey, guinea pig, etc. in origin--they're immortalized because they've been transformed ("transformed" as it's used in cellular biology, not some kind of "poof" magic act). They're still human cells, and are still as different from bacteria as every other cell in our body. Maybe I'm just reading your post wrong?

Edited to add this after reading Acidphos' post above: Here's (http://www.atcc.org/SearchCatalogs/CellBiology.cfm) the ATCC page on Cell lines and hybridomas, listing over 4000 cell lines from more than 150 species.

[Jet Black]

I was hoping that Dayton would offer to take me up on the offer to learn something. I did offer several times. as yet he has not asked a single question.

[Donnmathan]

Pete Harcoff:

Though I wonder if anyone has ever been sued over defamation of character on the Internet...

I have actually heard of one, and he won, too - I'll post a link if I can remember where the article was...

[Shpongle]

Originally posted by Arikay
From what Dayton said on CF, he may be registering here to come here. :)

He did register here. I must say I'm a bit surprised, but good for him.


He has apparently ignored my suggesting that I PMed to him after the whole DNA thing to educate himself. After that suggestion, he again posted one of his "I know what evolution is and that its false, I believe in only gods words" posts and procceded to mess it up. So if he has ignored the suggestion to educate himself, it will probably be a slaughter if he comes here. :)


Actually, in reading his other thread he seems to have a better definition of evolution than most creationists, but has still adopted a position on science that is more extreme than Kent Hovind (wouldn't have thought it possible, but...).

I'm enjoying reading the thread, though. The II regulars are being quite gentle.

[Ojuice5001]

Originally posted by LadyShea
Okay, my account at CF is seriously screwed up. I get an Explorer error every time I go there and it shuts down. Sometimes it takes 2-3 minutes sometimes within 30 secs. It happens on both my work and home computers, though they run on different ISPs, OSs and even different versions of Explorer. It ONLY happens at Christian Forums.

I have cleared my cookies, logged out completely, cleared my history and tried accessing the IP instead of the URL. What could be causing this? It's been an issue for a month now and it's annoying. Lunachick opened a bugs thread for me, but the admins just said to clear cookies..I have done that like 40 times.

I can't get on because my roommate's name is Chris, and he has an anti-virus program (McAffee's Guard Dog) that prevent an unauthorized sending of his name.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
Remember the source of this accusation. I bet his grasp of the law is as good as his grasp of biology. Hint: links are no more copyrighted than postal addresses.

Ironically, I just called Dayton's attention to a real copyright violation he committed on another thread.

[Doubting Didymus]

Originally posted by DMB
DD: do fundies think carrots have souls?

I don't know. In this particular case, I think that the reason plants are included in 'alive' is simply that they are bloody obviously alive, and being macroscopic this is harder to deny than things that you can't see.

[lpetrich]

HeLa cells may be interpreted as a protist, not a bacterium -- a one-celled eukaryote. Or maybe a one-celled fungus, like a yeast cell.

[Calzaer]

HeLa cells may be interpreted as a protist, not a bacterium -- a one-celled eukaryote. Or maybe a one-celled fungus, like a yeast cell.

D'oh! PROTIST! That's the word I was looking for. Duh. I feel stupid now. I keep confusing that with bacteria because I'm a dumbass.

[acidphos]

Phew! I was totally worried for a moment there!:cool:

[Valentine Pontifex]

Originally posted by Calzaer
D'oh! PROTIST! That's the word I was looking for. Duh. I feel stupid now. I keep confusing that with bacteria because I'm a dumbass.

It is also extremely questionable to call those cells protists as well. Unless, of course, you include humans as protists.

[Doubting Didymus]

Originally posted by Valentine Pontifex
It is also extremely questionable to call those cells protists as well. Unless, of course, you include humans as protists.

Anything can be a protist. Thats what kingdom Protista is for.

The only entry requirement for being a protist is that you have to be confusing to taxonomists.

[Happy Wonderer]

Just in:Dayton: " I'm a troll." (http://www.christianforums.com/t52784)

hw

[Doubting Didymus]

I think he did that very convincingly.

If his persona on CF was to show YEC up for being a sham, what were his posts here for?

[Roland98]

Originally posted by Happy Wonderer
Just in:Dayton: " I'm a troll." (http://www.christianforums.com/t52784)

hw

Then what's up with this post:

Typical hedonistic atheist. All you live for is 'pleasures of the flesh'. There is more to life than just sex and alchohol. God is out there, and He wants you to believe in Him.

in response to a poster's comments in this thread? (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60777&perpage=25&pagenumber=1)

I think he still has some serious issues. :(

[dayton]

The guy from CF isn't me, I'm somebody else.

[Happy Wonderer]

Originally posted by Dayton
The guy from CF isn't me, I'm somebody else.

'Scuse? So you are a different troll? You were lying about being the guy who was lying about being an OEC, then. Grow up, kid...

Originally posted by Dayton
Hi

I'm the poster from CF who mistakenly posted that bacteria are not alive. Apparently, I was wrong about that. I am not a scientist and I am just beginning to learn more about science.

Anyway, I am a Christian who accepts the Truth of Creation Science. I believe in Creationism because that is what I believe the Bible says. I am looking foward to debating you here.


hw

[JaeIsGod]

They must be the same Dayton. Dayton said on CF that he also started posting here.

[MrDarwin]

Originally posted by Dayton
The guy from CF isn't me, I'm somebody else.

Originally posted by Dayton
Hi! :) I'm Dayton from CF. I am an young-earth Creationist who came here for more intelligent Creation/Evolution debate and to post somewhere without overzealous moderators. I am 20 years old and I live in GA, moving to OH soon.

How do you change your sig? (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1132547#post1132547)

:rolleyes:

[RufusAtticus]

Sorry Dayton, your fun is over. We don't take kindly to trolls here.

[Xixax]

See what happens? Lying for Jesus creeps over from defending creationism and infects every other part of their life...

[Viti]

Originally posted by Dayton
The guy from CF isn't me, I'm somebody else. More lies...you're not even a good troll

[Warcraft3]

What exactly is a "troll"? I assume from the context I have seen the word used that it is referring to someone who generally lies about their true position? Is this correct or is there more to it than that?



Russ

[Duvenoy]

Originally posted by Dayton
The guy from CF isn't me, I'm somebody else.

Yeah, right!

And I'm the reincarnation of Moe Howard.

Come back and visit us when you get your identity crisis straightened out.

doov

[Warcraft3]

Originally posted by Xixax
See what happens? Lying for Jesus creeps over from defending creationism and infects every other part of their life...

Not all who defend creation are liars.

[WinAce]

Everything you ever wanted to know about trolls but were afraid to ask (http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html).

[Warcraft3]

Originally posted by Dayton
The guy from CF isn't me, I'm somebody else.

This is the part where you apologize for being a liar and beg for forgiveness.

[Roland98]

Originally posted by steadele
This is the part where you apologize for being a liar and beg for forgiveness.

And ask not to be banned with a crying smilie.

[viscousmemories]

Originally posted by Roland98
Then what's up with this post:



in response to a poster's comments in this thread? (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60777&perpage=25&pagenumber=1)

I think he still has some serious issues. :( Well, he does say that he's a Christian but trolling as a YEC. So while he may not believe in a young Earth, he's still qualified to have ridiculous beliefs.

[Xixax]

Originally posted by steadele
Not all who defend creation are liars.

There are three options:

1) Ignorant ( not stupid, but ignorant/uninformed of the evidence )
2) Lying
3) Aware of the evidence, but unable to understand it.

For the most part, they have to fall under category 2. It may be that they lie to themselves first... but what else do you call seeing the evidence, knowing it goes against your position, and then twisting/ignoring sufficient amounts of it to still claim creationism is plausible?

[Duvenoy]

Originally posted by steadele
This is the part where you apologize for being a liar and beg for forgiveness.

Russ my friend, whaddya wanna bet it ain't gonna happen? These people don't work that way.

Dayton, busted here and probably elsewhare, will go on to greener pastures, to soon be busted again. And so on to the end of the 'net. I really don't know what these guys get out of jerking sincere people around, but they must get something out of it. I would not be suprised if he were no more of a Christian than I am.

doov

[MrDarwin]

Originally posted by steadele
What exactly is a "troll"? I assume from the context I have seen the word used that it is referring to someone who generally lies about their true position? Is this correct or is there more to it than that?

I'm not sure there's a unanimously accepted definition but I believe the "troll" (the noun) came originally from "troll" (the verb). Trolling is a kind of fishing where you drag a line to catch whatever you can, unselectively. A troll--that is, a person who is trolling--posts something deliberately provocative or inflammatory, for no other reason than to elicit responses--preferably of the angry kind but they'll take whatever they can get, as long as somebody is paying attention to them. They are fishing for attention, and will do whatever it takes to get it, including lying and misrepresenting themselves.

(Edited to add that Winace's link says basically the same thing.)

[viscousmemories]

More on being a troll. (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll) (Pun unintended but appreciated)

vm