Relationship with a Christian girl - II

[Soul Invictus]

To all,

A few months back I posted here about the relationship crisis I was going through with my girlfriend of two years in a thread I started here (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50572&highlight=soul+invictus) .

I got very good advice from several members who'd been through similar situations, and some who had not, yet had insightful information.

After I was suggested to read certain previous threads, I read them all, (except for Strumming for Jesus (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36616) ....that one is just too long!) I printed out helpful parts and reviewed them...the whole nine. I did all this to work towards our relationship.


Well four months later, the verdict is that we are over. It happened last Friday. She'd been real irritable and cold towards me, and I figured my liberal views had something to do with it. The more I talked to her, I saw the dilemma she was in, which was choosing me or Jesus. I lost. We were close to each other, she held my face, she cried and said, " You know I love you right?" She constantly stated how much she loved me.... I didn't know if she was going to chicken out and play reconciliation like she did last time and avoid the issue again. This time she had the gumption to tell me that she had to feel complete in all aspects of a relationship. My views, being outside of the scope of hers would hinder her growth she was reaching, because I've chosen not to embrace certain values that I did before, not to mention how critical I am.

I asked her what changed from me being the man she wanted and the man that I was. After all, I voluntarily started telling her the new information that I was coming across and how I was changing as a person. My thought is that had I not informed her of my transition, we wouldn't even be in this predicament. I said that many people are able to have full relationships with differences of opinion. Not that it is necessarily for us, but my point is that it can work. I implored her to tell me what would she require of me, that way I could know if I could fulfill the goals she'd deem important. I've gone to church all my life, so if attending church is important to her, I wouldn't be averse to that (thanks to the habitual ritual in my childhood.) I wanted to know what would have to happen. I just could not take that a mere differing belief or view would constitute a severance of a perfect 2+ year relationship, which was headed to marriage.

Another hurtful part is the fact that I embraced discussing working it out and working through our differences from the beginning. I figured that since fundies rarely are likely to make concessions or compromises on anything, that I ran the risk of losing her because of my lack of conformity to her dogmatic position. This being the case, I ran the best chance of keeping her, by dodging the issue, sweeping it under the rug, and trying to bide time. I genuinely felt that this was workable so I embraced reconciling ourselves to having a full functional and complete relationship, like some have been able to do. But it was her who tried to put it off which surprised me! I felt betrayed for reasserting the issue, and getting a very lackluster effort from her to genuinely work it out. Not much discussion from her at all. Just the "Our beliefs are different" line and that was it.

Her mom ( an in-home minister) and sister like me a lot. Her sister hasn't articulated much about my views. She knows how they differ, however she thinks her sister could have waited before making the decision she did. The feel I get from her is that she at least thought it was possible to work on. I don't know how her mom feels about it yet, but she knew of some of my non-mainstream views when I didn't know she did, yet she treated me the same. I know she genuinely likes me.

Her sister and a couple of my friends said that a part of the problem is that I've been working and researching this, and my ex hasn't so, pretty much all she can base her decisions on is her experiences of what she was taught. This is sad but true. Even if she does come out of her fundyhood, it doesn't help me any if it's years down the line. I'll get a call from her saying thanks for my perspective, and she'll be with someone else.

Her sister thinks it could potentially be an item again. My ex-girlfriend told her me and her sister that it was possible to hook up again, however my beliefs would have to change.

I don't know what to say except that I'm hurt and stunned. Two years...gone. She took pics of us off her homepage two days later. I took her and I off my desktop after that. I haven't called her since then, and as I left her that Friday night, she said we could still be friends, and do things that we had planned to do, like see the last Matrix and LOTR, as well as go on the Labor Day picnic, and cook together. I felt like she was patronizing me when she said that and I was very mad at her for saying those kinds of things. I so bad wanted to lash out at her and tell her that I wasn't trying to hear that, however I know the ordeal she went through to make the decision she did. Even if she didn't value my opinions enough to talk about it more, I didn't want to put any guilt or hurt on her by making her feel bad for something that she was convicted about and genuinely felt in her heart that she was doing right.

So I agreed that we could do those things, so as not to make her feel any more uncomfortable about the situation. Where do I go from here? I don't want to move on, even though I know I most likely will have to...I have always been able to negotiate, and work things out...I've always been a mediator type of personal, but I guess it doesn't work with a fundy. I am sure we could come to an understanding, however I just want her to give me and us a chance.

Board - I ask your advice again...

A temporarily down and out soul..(no pun intended on my handle)

[King Rat]

I feel for you, it sucks man. Love triangles very rarely work out for all parties.

Look at it this way, if you met a girl that absolutely, positively believed that space monkeys knitted the world out of worm silk, you'd probably have some kind of hint that maybe the relationship wouldn't be a long-term thing, ya know.

Did you at least get some nookie out of the deal?:)

[Godless Wonder]

I don't have any advice for you. All I can say is, I'm in about the same place you are, (maybe not quite as bad as you actually, but not too far from it.) It sucks.

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by Godless Wonder
I don't have any advice for you. All I can say is, I'm in about the same place you are, (maybe not quite as bad as you actually, but not too far from it.) It sucks.

Not to derail my thread, but what are you dealing with?

[Soul Invictus]

Oh...forgot to add...we were very serious about marriage too, to add insult to injury. Both of us were to start grad school soon, start our careers for a bit here and move...the whole nine. Now I have to look at starting totally all over...

:(

[Godless Wonder]

First off, probably you should not take my experience as a model. (Probably you should do the opposite of whatever it is that I do, if anything.)

Well, it's pretty much over. I think what sucks the most (now, after some time) is that this girl was, except for the religion thing, about as perfect for me as I could imagine. Now that it's over, I find that she's kind of set my bar too goddamn high. It's hard to imagine I will be lucky enough to meet someone who can measure up, apart from the religion thing. Well, anyway... She's a Christian, I asked her if I could manage to believe in God, but not Jesus, would that be enough for her, (not that I could do it, I just wanted to see where she was). She said no. I had told her withing 2 weeks of meeting her that I was an atheist, and she seemed ok with it. But eventually, and it took a long time, much too long really, she figured out that she wasn't okay with it at all. It turned out that the whole time, she'd been kind of hiding her religion from me. I knew she wasn't an atheist, but I didn't know she was so Christian, so I was kind of in the dark on that for a long long time. So one day she sort of suddenly broke up with me about this, just when things were starting to get pretty serious between us. I tried talking with her about it, which she was receptive to, because she didn't really seem like she wanted to break up, more like it was forced upon her, it wasn't an easy decision for her at all. So we went round and round about it. I read (a substantial portion of) the bible for the first time. (what a crock of shit, it only made me lose all shreds of respect I might have had for Christianity, and I really tried., but...you'd have be a simpleton to believe that shit if you read it as an adult with a brain that works right.)

So, this girl isn't dumb at all, so I thought I'd try to reason with her. Well this didn't get far. If you're a really smart person (and she is) and yet you still believe in Christianity, you've got to invent some contortions to fit all tha stuff in your head all at the same time as the more ordinary scientific type facts that keeping crowding in. So she had basically invented this worldview that posited that there is a spiritual world which is imperceivable, yet which can impact the physical world through imperceivable means, and she believed that by faith alone it was possible to gain some knowledge of this spiritual world. Rational thought was explicitly excluded from perceiving or reaching conclusions about the spiritual domain. Basically she had a logic-tight compartment in which her religious beliefs were sealed. There was no reasoning her out of these beliefs, as she explicitly excluded rational thought. There was simply nothing anyone could say that would change her mind. Even she cannot change her own mind voluntarily. (Though she says she believes people (like me) can choose to believe... She would be happy if I "chose" to believe in jesus... Of course, I think that I am not able to choose to believe anything... I find out what I think is true, in the same way that I found out that I like chocolate and I dislike the taste of bile, and I try not to believe anything with certainty, but instead assign some kind of probability.)

Well, enough of that. After going round and round, we realized there was just no way to fix it. Now, we're "just friends", but it's a strained kind of friendship, because we both still like each other too much. (well, I still like her way too much anyway. I can't read her mind.)

Probably more irrelevant info than you wanted, and less helpful than you wanted. Sorry.

[Buddrow_Wilson]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
...I haven't called her since then, and as I left her that Friday night, she said we could still be friends, and do things that we had planned to do, like see the last Matrix and LOTR, as well as go on the Labor Day picnic, and cook together. I felt like she was patronizing me when she said that and I was very mad at her for saying those kinds of things...

I suspect she was patronizing herself more than you here.

There really isn't much that can be said to ease you pain and frustration. I'm sure you logically are aware that it is likely for the best that you two live seperate lives, yet that it doesn't come close to feeling that way, I am well aware. All one can do is give it time. The amazing and sad thing is that 10 years down the road the whole relationship will probably seem like something from another lifetime; like a fading dream sequence where you struggle to remember your motivations. "Time heals all wounds", while not universally true, is true enough indeed.

[HelenM]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
My thought is that had I not informed her of my transition, we wouldn't even be in this predicament.

I think she would have figured it out though. I mean, how long could you have pretended to be really excited about Jesus? And would you really have been comfortable lying about your non-belief in your closest relationship?

I just could not take that a mere differing belief or view would constitute a severance of a perfect 2+ year relationship, which was headed to marriage.

Evidently the difference in belief is significant to her, though. Are you sure it was 'perfect' from her point of view?

I know things have not worked out as you hoped and I'm sorry about that, but I hope you will show her the respect of accepting that 'no' means 'no'.

I felt betrayed for reasserting the issue, and getting a very lackluster effort from her to genuinely work it out. Not much discussion from her at all. Just the "Our beliefs are different" line and that was it.

I think her position is fairly clear. If she can't see herself being happy in a long-term relationship with you unless you change beliefs, she's done the right thing and told you so. I think it's kinder and more respectful of her to tell you that directly and end the relationship now than to continue it in the secret hope that you'll convert - since, based on what you wrote, that's the only way she can envisage this being a relationship that she'll be happy in.

Maybe for the last two years she was hoping you'd convert/reconvert and now she's finally facing the fact that you aren't even close to that. It sounds like the break-up is a result of you becoming more assertive about your non-belief (but I apologize if I misconstrued that). This could be because your assertiveness showed her how far away from her beliefs you are. In which case you've both moved closer to honesty and the break-up is the result. As painful as that is I think it's better that it happen now than further down the road when you've spent more time in the relationship and maybe even have children that you can't agree how to raise...

I don't know what to say except that I'm hurt and stunned.

I'm sorry. It has to hurt a lot given how serious you've indicated that this relationship was :(

I don't want to move on, even though I know I most likely will have to...I have always been able to negotiate, and work things out...I've always been a mediator type of personal, but I guess it doesn't work with a fundy. I am sure we could come to an understanding, however I just want her to give me and us a chance.

Maybe she feels like she did give you a chance, for the last two years. If she's basing her decision on them, then that's reasonable isn't it? What would change if you stayed together longer? If the only change that she can see making things work out is your conversion/reconversion then I doubt that's something you could or would want to promise her.

No offense, but, do you think part of your feelings are hurt pride because you 'failed' in this 'negotiation'?

I honestly don't see that there's a better option for you than respecting her enough to recognize that 'no' means 'no'. But you certainly could say you don't want to go to movies with her, etc, if that's going to be very painful for you. That's one step you could take - you have the right to change your mind about that.

I don't know what else to tell you...except that I hope one day you'll look back and decide this was the best outcome for you after all.

Helen

[squonkhunter]

I was in a position similar to yours about a year and a half ago.

While there were other things, the fact that I am an atheist was a contentious issue and lead to our break-up. My girlfriend told me that she had always envisioned getting married and to start going to church again every Sunday with her husband in tow. Being a godless heathen, I told her that that was something I just could not do.

I know this is cold comfort but, as one of my favorite songs goes, "You'll find it's better at the end of the line." To be sure, the immediate aftermath of the break-up sucked big time, but I am very glad that it ended. I definitely feel that I'm better off.

Skip

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
Well four months later, the verdict is that we are over. It happened last Friday. She'd been real irritable and cold towards me, and I figured my liberal views had something to do with it. The more I talked to her, I saw the dilemma she was in, which was choosing me or Jesus. I lost.

No, she lost. You won. She's playing the Pascal's wager. It's a sucker's bet, and she was the sucker. Do you remember watching the Let's make a Deal show? The contestants gambled the great prizes they'd already won for a chance to win what's behind door number three. Then they pull back the curtain and it's a grand prize zonker! Well that's your girlfriend. We all know what's behind door number three. You even told her. Only in this case she's not just greedy, she's an idiot.

My advice to you is good riddance. Be glad that you're not going to have to drag the burden of this idiocy through the rest of your life. Be glad you're not tied up with someone who prefers a fairy tale and hypocrites down at the church over you.

You've made the mistake a lot of people do. You've read into the relationship. You've read in things like trustworthiness, honesty, maturity, intelligence, rationality, tolerance, committment, love, etc. She obviously hasn't lived up to any of those important ideals. They've pulled back the curtain on door number three, and it was a zonker! Was it a beautiful girl and a life happily ever after? Monty has just gone through the whole zonk prize to show you the glory of all you could have won. Not a nice wife and happy life, it's just Jay Stewart dressed as an old granny in a Giant Rocking Chair. Be glad you didn't pick it. Now you're going to the Big Deal for the grand prize. There are no zonk prizes in the final round!



We were close to each other, she held my face, she cried and said, " You know I love you right?" She constantly stated how much she loved me.... I didn't know if she was going to chicken out and play reconciliation like she did last time and avoid the issue again. This time she had the gumption to tell me that she had to feel complete in all aspects of a relationship. My views, being outside of the scope of hers would hinder her growth she was reaching, because I've chosen not to embrace certain values that I did before, not to mention how critical I am.

There's nothing of value in what she believes in. Remember that. She love's you? No, sounds to me like she loves herself. She's growing? Ha! No, she's retreating further into fantasy land.

I asked her what changed from me being the man she wanted and the man that I was. After all, I voluntarily started telling her the new information that I was coming across and how I was changing as a person. My thought is that had I not informed her of my transition, we wouldn't even be in this predicament. I said that many people are able to have full relationships with differences of opinion. Not that it is necessarily for us, but my point is that it can work. I implored her to tell me what would she require of me, that way I could know if I could fulfill the goals she'd deem important. I've gone to church all my life, so if attending church is important to her, I wouldn't be averse to that (thanks to the habitual ritual in my childhood.) I wanted to know what would have to happen. I just could not take that a mere differing belief or view would constitute a severance of a perfect 2+ year relationship, which was headed to marriage.

It's more than just a disagreement over beliefs. You are Heathen Scum awaiting your eternal torment in Hell. You are Satan incarnate. You are not here to be a respected member of society and loving husband and father. You are here to demonstrate the glory of God's power and righteousness. They the saved cannot appreciate the glory of God's grace without knowing the torment of God's damnation. That's your purpose.

You define everything she doesn't want to be. A life with you is a life separated from God. Everything you live for is a detraction from everything she wants out of life. You'll go to church. Yeah fine, but will you be the leader of her family towards God? Well, that's a big big problem. Will you let her lead her family towards God? Well, honestly, not if you can help it. Come on, we know Satan's at work with you. You're just too blind to see it. Can't you see the righteousness, insightfulness, and courage of what she's done? My God, Halelujah!

I think I'm going to puke!



Her mom ( an in-home minister) and sister like me a lot. Her sister hasn't articulated much about my views. She knows how they differ, however she thinks her sister could have waited before making the decision she did. The feel I get from her is that she at least thought it was possible to work on. I don't know how her mom feels about it yet, but she knew of some of my non-mainstream views when I didn't know she did, yet she treated me the same. I know she genuinely likes me.

Her mom and sister are part of the problem. Where do you think she got all these silly ideas? What do you think Mom thought needed some working on anyway? You, buddy. You need some help. You need the love of Jesus. You need some work on that. "It's possible, and if you'll bow down on your knees in a "pool of your own piss vomit, sweat, and tears" (Thank's to Vicar Phillip for that visual) and come to Jesus, we'll work on it with you." Thanks Mom, but no thanks.

I don't know what to say except that I'm hurt and stunned. Two years...gone. She took pics of us off her homepage two days later. I took her and I off my desktop after that. I haven't called her since then, and as I left her that Friday night, she said we could still be friends, and do things that we had planned to do, like see the last Matrix and LOTR, as well as go on the Labor Day picnic, and cook together. I felt like she was patronizing me when she said that and I was very mad at her for saying those kinds of things. I so bad wanted to lash out at her and tell her that I wasn't trying to hear that, however I know the ordeal she went through to make the decision she did. Even if she didn't value my opinions enough to talk about it more, I didn't want to put any guilt or hurt on her by making her feel bad for something that she was convicted about and genuinely felt in her heart that she was doing right.

Hurt yes, but stunned? Come on. You knew back in April didn't you? You keep saying perfect relationship. Honestly, it didn't sound so perfect to me. I live through this every day. My twin girls (5yrs) have a secret. They're not supposed to talk to Daddy about God. What they talk about with Mommy is a secret. Believe me. This is far from perfect.

Your first post back in April where you first talked about your beliefs and her beliefs and lifestyles sounded a lot like it was in my relationship at the beginning. Believe me, it's not worth it. If I knew in the beginning what I know now, I would have dumped her like the load of garbage this christianity is.

So I agreed that we could do those things, so as not to make her feel any more uncomfortable about the situation. Where do I go from here? I don't want to move on, even though I know I most likely will have to...I have always been able to negotiate, and work things out...I've always been a mediator type of personal, but I guess it doesn't work with a fundy. I am sure we could come to an understanding, however I just want her to give me and us a chance.

I think you need to turn the table on her. You seem to be playing the I'm hurt feel sorry for me role, which probably empowers her. The thing you've missed in all this is to tell her exactly what you think of her and her beliefs and values. Tell her exactly what kind of person she is for picking a fairy tale and hypocrites at the church over you. Tell her what a tremendous waste it's been for you to put any trust and hope into a relationship with such a loser like her. Give her a chance to realize what a loser she is and give yourself a chance for finding someone else whose not.

Stay away from her, and in a few months life will be back to normal, and you can make a new way in life with this worthy lesson learned always kept handy in your back pocket.

Good luck.

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by HelenM

Maybe she feels like she did give you a chance, for the last two years. If she's basing her decision on them, then that's reasonable isn't it? What would change if you stayed together longer? If the only change that she can see making things work out is your conversion/reconversion then I doubt that's something you could or would want to promise her.
Helen

HelenM,

You know what the killing part is? For the majority of the relationship, I'd say I was able to align with her in the beliefs issue. It wasn't until the first couple of months this year (March) that the "differences" came out. Now in August, we are done.


No offense, but, do you think part of your feelings are hurt pride because you 'failed' in this 'negotiation'?

Yes, and I know it is. I've been relatively successful in communication. To know I wasn't able to make it happen where I feel it counts most does hurt my pride a bit. I do maintain that given the timeframe for the dissension between views was short, and her inability to speak on the issues and no substantive attempt IMO to even contemplate working it out adds salt to the wounds even worse. I think it would hurt a very minute amount less if she'd given a valiant attempt at talking about it.

[Roland98]

Oh SI, I'm sorry. It's trite, I know, but I think you truly will be better off without her. Though many do it successfully, there are also many atheist/Christian marriages that eventually fail due to conflicting world-views. At least you don't have to go through the mess of divorce, or worse, custody disputes.

Feeling your pain,
Roland

[Barcode]

*echoes Roland*

In the long term, do you think *you* would have been happy with someone who has such a differing worldview than your own? To say nothing of the fact said worldview is highly questionable and not based upon anything concrete.

Could you truly respect someone who adheres to such things?

I feel my gf and I are heading in the same direction, unless something drastic happens ... I am learning that long term, it's very difficult to show respect for something you think is extremely flawed ... no matter how important it is to the individual in question.

For my gf, the only acceptable compromise seems to be for me to shut up while she does all kinds of religious activities and refuses to truly delve into opposing viewpoints ... because apparently if one thing makes her happy, there's no need for her to go exploring.

You can either be free of such inflexibility, or lose your sanity in the process .... it would seem.

Better in the long term to be with someone open to other worldviews ...

[brighid]

Soul,

I am so sorry (and disregard my recent comments in your old thread as I missed this one when posting … sorry) to hear about your pain and frustration.

I know it hurts and there is no specific time frame for when this pain will go away. It WILL get better, in time. You will move on. You will find someone else and the pain of this time in your life will lessen and hopefully someday be healed.

Although it hurts like a bitch and you could have temporarily avoided some pain by putting your thoughts and feelings on the back burner, you did the right thing by being honest. If a relationship cannot work because one partner is honest, no matter how much it hurts, the end is probably best for you. I know that is very difficult to see now, but in time you will hopefully be able to see this.

Take solace knowing you have been true to yourself and that this couldn’t work because of truth. You have not deceived her, you have not tricked her into loving someone you aren’t and you can proceed into the future with a clear conscience.

She is being honest when she tells you she cannot reconcile the differing belief systems both of you have. It is unfortunate, but true. She cannot see your point of view and she has willfully chosen not to investigate it. You cannot make her do so. She must come to any conclusion of her own fruition. She may someday realize you were right and she will be wounded once again with what she lost when she gave you up. That really sucks, but it can’t be changed. Try not to dwell on things you have no control over, but feel the pain and learn from it so you can avoid future mistakes.

Sometimes people simply grow apart. I know it happened in my first significant relationship, with my first love and to whom I lost my virginity. It was gut wrenching and my heart was broken for a very long time, but I did get over it and have moved on to much better pastures. I am loved by a man who loves me despite my atheism, out spoken nature, etc., etc. I could not live a life any other way. It would destroy the very fiber of my being to do otherwise.

The right thing to do usually isn’t the easy thing to do and unfortunately, it often comes with unpleasant or harsh consequences. But is your self-respect worth anything less? You deserve to be loved by a woman who can handle your atheism, etc. You deserve to raise your future children in a stable, loving home with two parents who aren’t at each other’s throats over this issue (or any other.) You deserve the best life has to offer and although she is a wonderful woman whom you loved dearly, she is not the best this life has to offer if she needs you to be someone other then who you are.

Brighid

[BadBadBad]

Helen,

I agree that what people expect out of relationships is important right or wrong. Maybe I want to be a drunk, sleep around, and slap my wife into submission when ever I think she needs it. Let's say that's important to me. Then, I agree with you that for the relationship to work, my spouse would have to accept and respect that I want that out of a relationship. However, there is right and wrong. There is truth and fantasy, and respect is something you have to earn.

It always deeply disturbs me in these threads that you effectively preach to us as atheists that we should respect the Christian in these relationship issues. That we should respect their wishes. Because, well, they're right.

Well, I've got news for you Helen. You're wrong. There is no God. Christianity is a fairy tale. Christians are hypocrites, liars, and worse, present company excluded of course.

I don't see anything worthy of respect here. She's an absolute hypocrite. She professes to want to be a Christian more than anything. Yet, she sleeps with Soul Inviticus out of wed lock. She says she loves him, and rather than dumping him, she should live up to the christian ideals you've reminded us of before. She should be the idillic christian. She should dedicate her life to being the perfect christian role model in hopes of saving his soul. She shouldn't wear her christianity as a badge of glory on her sleeve. She should pray in her closet. She shouldn't demand he lead a christian household. She should submit to him as her lord. She shouldn't expect to brainwash her children and shield them from their father's lack of belief. She should trust that God gives them free will and they have the ultimate responsibility to God irrespective of mother and father. She like every other Christian I've met is a hypocrite.

She hasn't done a virtuous thing. She hasn't saved both of them some later grief in life. She's destroyed their relationship, and I can probably safely say she's devestated someone she loves. There is a right and wrong here Helen. Christianity is a fairy tale. Her beliefs are not to be respected. They should be shunned and ridiculed. Her beliefs are ridiculous, and instead of mindlessly holding on to them at all costs, she should open her eyes and take what reality has to offer.


I know things have not worked out as you hoped and I'm sorry about that, but I hope you will show her the respect of accepting that 'no' means 'no'.

I hope you will respect that saying no now after a two year relationship makes her a scumbag.


I think her position is fairly clear. If she can't see herself being happy in a long-term relationship with you unless you change beliefs, she's done the right thing and told you so. I think it's kinder and more respectful of her to tell you that directly and end the relationship now than to continue it in the secret hope that you'll convert - since, based on what you wrote, that's the only way she can envisage this being a relationship that she'll be happy in.

Her position is very clear. She is an idiot. She can't be happy in an otherwise "perfect" relationship because she's so tied up in fantasy land that she can't see straight. What she has done is wrong. He'll go to church with her. He'll try to work things out. You yourself live in an atheist/christian marriage and know that it can work, but he won't flip the fantasy light on in his head and profess conformity and belief in Jesus so "I'm dumping you." It kills me that you think she's being kind and respectful.


Maybe for the last two years she was hoping you'd convert/reconvert and now she's finally facing the fact that you aren't even close to that. It sounds like the break-up is a result of you becoming more assertive about your non-belief (but I apologize if I misconstrued that). This could be because your assertiveness showed her how far away from her beliefs you are. In which case you've both moved closer to honesty and the break-up is the result. As painful as that is I think it's better that it happen now than further down the road when you've spent more time in the relationship and maybe even have children that you can't agree how to raise...

Better now than later, perhaps yes, but we have a right and a wrong here. The breakup is a result of him becoming more assertive about his non-belief? No the break up is the result of the dogma of the fairy tale cult known as christianity.

Maybe she feels like she did give you a chance, for the last two years. If she's basing her decision on them, then that's reasonable isn't it? What would change if you stayed together longer? If the only change that she can see making things work out is your conversion/reconversion then I doubt that's something you could or would want to promise her.

Soul Inviticus, what a great girl! She gave you a chance for two years to fall in line and conform to her fantasy dogma, and you blew it. What a DORK! We should feel sorry for her. Poor girl. She just wanted to live her life worshipping Jebus. She tried to save your soul, but you were just so stiff necked about it. Now she's got to try and save her soul, and what about the kids? We should really respect her for that. We can't fault her can we? I mean she did wait two years to finally tell you that your conformity to her fantasy dogma is mandatory, but hey, we should really give her credit for trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Come on and admit it that it's your fault for leading her on and letting her believe that you may one day fall down on your knees and worship Jesus. :rolleyes:

[HelenM]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
her inability to speak on the issues and no substantive attempt IMO to even contemplate working it out adds salt to the wounds even worse. I think it would hurt a very minute amount less if she'd given a valiant attempt at talking about it.

I can understand that; I hate it when I want to discuss something and the other person won't. It's frustrating and even more so, of course, if it's over something important.

Helen

[Queen of Swords]

[After reading this thread, I hope very much that when I fall in love, it will be with an atheist or an agnostic. I want someone whose mindset I can respect, someone who won't expect me to take second place to a religious figure/figment and someone who'll stand beside me as we fight the good fight ;).

Some day, SI, I hope you have that too. I think it may be much better than trying to deal with a Christian who is frustrated and disappointed that you do not believe the same thing she does.

[Soul Invictus]

I talked to my ex's sister and her mom would like me to attend her church setting on Sunday (which I've done before)and have an informal talk discussing what's going on. I know she is somewhat familiar with my views, however I don't know to what extent. She's going to talk to her daughter, my ex as well, because she's maintained the stance that it is workable. This is the feel I'm getting. I guess this will be the performance of my life to date. Maybe my ex will actually articulate her concerns regardless of if the event is a bomb. Any tips?

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
[After reading this thread, I hope very much that when I fall in love, it will be with an atheist or an agnostic. I want someone whose mindset I can respect, someone who won't expect me to take second place to a religious figure/figment and someone who'll stand beside me as we fight the good fight ;).

Some day, SI, I hope you have that too. I think it may be much better than trying to deal with a Christian who is frustrated and disappointed that you do not believe the same thing she does.

Thanks for the kind words...I can promise you this won't happen again. She used to be an anthro major, so I'd have thought she have been the least bit receptive to criticism of the religious sphere. I wasn't quite sure how she could reconcile that.

Queen,

When you contemplate a relationship, get this type of issue out the way first, to avoid that heartache down the line....take it from me.

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by brettc
Better now than later, perhaps yes, but we have a right and a wrong here. The breakup is a result of him becoming more assertive about his non-belief? No the break up is the result of the dogma of the fairy tale cult known as christianity.


Brettc,

I want you to know that I really appreciate your input on this issue. You give me a non-supine air to work with.

Invictus

[HelenM]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I talked to my ex's sister and her mom would like me to attend her church setting on Sunday (which I've done before)and have an informal talk discussing what's going on. I know she is somewhat familiar with my views, however I don't know to what extent. She's going to talk to her daughter, my ex as well, because she's maintained the stance that it is workable. This is the feel I'm getting. I guess this will be the performance of my life to date. Maybe my ex will actually articulate her concerns regardless of if the event is a bomb. Any tips?

It seems to me that the most helpful thing she could explain is: why have things changed now? If she was happy in the relationship before, why not now?

That might give you more insight into whether you and she could get back to the great relationship you said you had before.

I'd be interested in brett's opinion on what you should do, since he's an atheist with lots of experience being in a relationship with a Christian.

For what it's worth, I didn't intend to be strongly defending your ex-girlfriend although maybe it came across that way, based on what brett responded to me.

By the way, her objections to the relationship may have little to do with you as an individual i.e. whether you are a great guy. The more conservative churches usually urge Christians not to marry non-Christians, period. No exceptions. Maybe she's been hearing this lately from church or some Christian she knows. Of course I don't know - it's just one of the things you have little control over that might have led to her decision to break up with you. If she's hearing that, the only way to counter it would be to persuade her that it's erroneous - which may be very hard if she accepts everything else they say as true and right.

brett, I really would like to hear what you would advise SI to do. Regarding your objections to what I've said, I'd rather not have a side-discussion on SI's thread with you, in order that the thread can remain focused on him and his situation. Hence this is all I was planning to say on this thread in response to your response to me - which I did read.

Helen

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I talked to my ex's sister and her mom would like me to attend her church setting on Sunday (which I've done before)and have an informal talk discussing what's going on. I know she is somewhat familiar with my views, however I don't know to what extent. She's going to talk to her daughter, my ex as well, because she's maintained the stance that it is workable. This is the feel I'm getting. I guess this will be the performance of my life to date. Maybe my ex will actually articulate her concerns regardless of if the event is a bomb. Any tips?

Make sure Mom knows you're an atheist. Make sure she knows how you feel about christianity, and make sure she knows the real liklihood of you converting to christianity. You seem to think mom is on your side. Make sure she knows how you intend to deal with kids on the subject of religion. We'll see.

In any event, remember what I said about trustworthiness, honesty, maturity, intelligence, rationality, tolerance, committment, love? She, regardless of her religious beliefs, hasn't got any of what it counts to make a relationship work. In my book, someone that just picks up and walks off from a two year relationship, be it friend, lover, or spouse, is not a person I'd want to put a lot of faith in for the future.

When you get married to someone, you're tied in pretty deep. You're young. You've never had kids. If you get married, you'll probably have kids. Without having kids, it's pretty difficult to understand the amount of trauma there is, how many people are affected, and how long the trauma of divorce can last. You can't imagine what it's like to be a visitor in your children's life. You can't imagine what it would be like to pay child support and have any future ability re-marry and start over severely limited, all while your wife re-marries and steps up in life with the extra doe from you. You've never seen the vindictiveness that can happen during divorce. You've never seen the financial chaos that can be left over for one or both parties. Divorce is a travesty. Why go into marriage and a future with a women that you can't trust? How could your really ever trust this woman again?

[King Rat]

Why go into marriage and a future with a women that you can't trust? How could your really ever trust this woman again?

I'm totally with BrettC on this point. So many people get married or enter relationships for all the wrong reasons.

I have a friend who is going through hell right now. He never really believed and he never went to church, but he just recently chose to start calling himself an atheist. His love hasn't changed. His financial state hasn't changed. His view of morality hasn't changed. His relationship with his kids hasn't changed, and so on. But since this one stupid belief was never fully hashed out before he got married, he is now getting divorced.

[brighid]

I also agree that so many people go into marriage without the big questions worked out, believing love is enough and this will get them through rough times. Although love for another person is enormously helpful and provides a strong foundation to a relationship, especially a life long committment, it cannot be relied upon to mitigate the important issues.

If you are attempting to reconcile the pain with some answers from your girlfriend I think this is good. However, if you are hoping this talk with change her somehow I think this is the wrong motivation. Even if you do not agree with her belief system (as she does not agree with yours) she is still entitled to her beliefs and taking the journey of self-discovery ... even if that path never leads her to atheism.

Would you want her to involve your friends and family in an attempt to somehow bring you to Christianity?

I think you deserve answers to your questions, but you should resolve yourself to the reality that you may very well never get the answers you seek from her.

Should she have ended a relationship that you worked so hard to maintain because she cannot, at this moment, see herself married to an atheist? Yes and no. I think it is certainly better to end things now then to continue on believing some romantic notion that everything will be okay because you love one another. Religious belief is simply too important to some people and a conservative set of beliefs is even more difficult to overcome when you have been indoctrinated into that faith from childhood, and when you have heavy social and emotional investments in a religious community. I don't think it's fair to expect her to change, even if that would solve your problems and quell your pain. It certainly isn't fair to expect you to change in order to solve this relationship problem, which would likely happen if you would "just see the light."

My husband divorced his ex under similar circumstances, although it wasn't really about religion so much. He married knowing the problems that existed in their relationship, thinking that she was a good person, and blah, blah, blah. He realized right away what a mistake he had made and spent two years in shere hell because of it. The damage the divorce did to long-time friendships, familial relationships and to his psyche were FAR greater than if he had simply never gotten married, and broke things off when he realized the problems in their relationship.

You likely think you won't ever find anyone else as good, but that simply isn't true. When you are able to truly be yourself then you are able to attract the right person(s) and you can live a life free of this kind of avoidable strife. Often times when you find that relationship you wonder how the hell you ever lived a lie with someone else.

Atheist/Christian marriages are doable but they take a very mature, and special set of individuals to do so. Those individuals are rare and it doesn't appear that your ex is at that point in her life where this can happen. Also, and this sounds a bit cliche ... but you are just too damned young to get married. Wait, even if she is the "one."

Brighid

[openeyes]

Although it hurts like hell now, I think you have to accept that there's really no future in this relationship. Two years is something, but your ex-gf probably didn't have any more of an idea of what was going on than you did. Unfortunately, she didn't "grow" the way one would hope, but better to find out now than later, as others have pointed out. For a relationship to work, both have to say "yes"; one "no" from either side ends it.

Time really does heal, but you may have to give yourself several months before expecting to feel better.

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by HelenM
[B]It seems to me that the most helpful thing she could explain is: why have things changed now? If she was happy in the relationship before, why not now?

I think that's the point I was trying to make earlier. Why now? Well, first off, I don't think it matters. This break up over his religious beliefs isn't just a red flag for the future, I see it more as a nuclear bomb. For it to work out between atheist and christian, both sides have to be tolerant and I would say apathetic about the potential issues. It's clear to me that she isn't, and she's not likely to change anymore than he's likely to truly convert.

Why now? That's probably the wrong question. Why not two years ago? I think that's what makes her the bad guy here. She's a christian. It's pretty simple. "I'm not getting involved with you at all until you profess your faith in Jesus. I'm not sleeping with you until we get married. I'm not getting married until I know you're comitted to leading our family in christ." She apparently didn't do any of that. Well, it's a little late for all that now.

That's what my wife did to me. She was apathetic about religion, with respect to me, until we got married and had kids. She had a young son. She didn't go to church. She didn't belong to a church. She never said anything about religion. We slept together and in fact got pregnant before we were married. All of that was fine and dandy with her as far as I could tell. Then, we needed to get married in a church. Then we needed to start going to church. Then we had three children and we needed to sign up for the whole program at the most fundy Baptist church in the area. Hell that preacher is running right up there with Jerry Falwell now on a national level trying to abolish separation of church and state.

So, she's a christian, but she doesn't lead her life as a christian. She chooses to reject most of what the Bible has to say about how God wants us to exist on this earth. Then she gets tied up with SI in a 2 year relationship, despite his beliefs, and now she wants to be a better christian. Now, she wants to dump SI because he rejects what the Bible has to say. That makes her a hypocrite. That may be ok according to the warped morals of God and his boy Jebus, but in my book, she's the bad guy here.

For what it's worth, I didn't intend to be strongly defending your ex-girlfriend although maybe it came across that way, based on what brett responded to me.

I know you didn't, and I recognize that my rants against you are probably uncalled for. However, consider that my reactions are in large part against christianity, and I see you representing christianity in your posts. I expect you will agree with me that she hasn't lived up to her responsibilities as a christian and that she has definitely let SI down by not being upfront about what she expects out of life and a relationship with respect to religion. However, somewhere, reading between the lines, I can't help but believe that you think the problem that needs to be solved here is SI's lack of belief. She is the righteous one here. Even though you're not saying that, I hold you to your religion, and I can't help but read that into your posts.

By the way, her objections to the relationship may have little to do with you as an individual i.e. whether you are a great guy. The more conservative churches usually urge Christians not to marry non-Christians, period. No exceptions. Maybe she's been hearing this lately from church or some Christian she knows. Of course I don't know - it's just one of the things you have little control over that might have led to her decision to break up with you. If she's hearing that, the only way to counter it would be to persuade her that it's erroneous - which may be very hard if she accepts everything else they say as true and right.

Looks like you're trying to say it's not personal. No, after two years, it's personal all right. Had she said this upfront perhaps after their first couple of dates, ok fine. It's not personal.

brett, I really would like to hear what you would advise SI to do. Regarding your objections to what I've said, I'd rather not have a side-discussion on SI's thread with you, in order that the thread can remain focused on him and his situation. Hence this is all I was planning to say on this thread in response to your response to me - which I did read.

Like I said, I see this not as a red flag but a nuclear bomb. If upfront or before we had kids, my wife told me how dogmatically she would pursue her religious lifestyle, there's no question I would have been a fool to try and continue on with the relationship. This is a signal the size of a nuclear bomb that she won't be tolerant and apathetic about religious issues. This is a sign that she won't treat SI with the dignity and respect of a loved spouse but rather heathen scum damned to eternity by God himself. This isn't some minor issue of christian doctrine that she can be pursuaded away from. She's bought into the whole program. Let it be someone else's problem to try and pursuade her otherwise. Life is too short to spend your life with someone who thinks you deserve to spend eternity damned to hell.

[brighid]

Why now? That's probably the wrong question. Why not two years ago? I think that's what makes her the bad guy here.

Because over two years HIS belief system has changed, and he hasn't been completely honest about his misgivings and lack of belief until recently. Since he has become more honest it has become clear that things cannot work out if they both remain true to their belief system. I don't think this makes her the bad guy in this scenario. It is not as if he didn't know prior to entering this relationship that she wasn't a Christian, but if I remember correctly over the course of their relationship her involvement with the Church has changed to be a more substantive part of her life. His belief system also changed, but to the opposite end of the spectrum and hence the issue we have now. Two people, in the beginning of the relationship held relatively similar beliefs. Over time each person changed to hold different beliefs and those beliefs are no longer compatible to a life-long partnership involving marriage and children.

It is not as if Soul was an atheist the day they met, nothing about his belief system has changed and suddenly she up and couldn't tolerate it anymore.

Brighid

[BadBadBad]

Ok,

Both sides changed. I missed that part. It's still offensive to me that she's going to dump him even though he's willing to participate with the lifestyle she wants to live. He just can't flip on the fantasy belief switch and go through life drooling over Jebus with her. I understand that regardless of who's right or wrong, it's not surprising that either of them are unwilling to live with this conflict.

I'm curious if it's just this issue of religion or if this is indicative of other issues that might be a problem as well. Family, finances, other wants and wishes, future plans, careers, children, etc etc. SI appears willing to compromise on religion, she apparently won't. I'm curious how many other issues she might handle the same way. Soul Inviticus, any comment?

[brighid]

Both sides changed. I missed that part. It's still offensive to me that she's going to dump him even though he's willing to participate with the lifestyle she wants to live. He just can't flip on the fantasy belief switch and go through life drooling over Jebus with her. I understand that regardless of who's right or wrong, it's not surprising that either of them are unwilling to live with this conflict.

I understand, but if I am understanding correctly it's not about participation in a lifestyle but rather a belief system that is diametrically oppossed to her own, and when marriage and children are contemplated what was once not a serious issue becomes a much more serious issue.

If you had to do it over again, knowing what you know now about the conflicts and pain the clash between atheism and Christianity have caused your own family, would you chose to continue in such a relationship that would lead to marriage and a family? (This is not to say that you don't love your wife and children, but simply a hypothetical, hindsight issue as it applies to this situation.)

As much as I disagree with her religious persuasion I cannot reconcile that she is wrong to end this relationship, even if she didn't put in the effort the has.

I broke up with a beloved, long-time boyfriend because he became a born-again Christian and his expectations of me (as a future wife and mother of children) became completely unacceptable. He knew me well enough to understand that I was not going to submit to his authority, blah, blah, blah. It was heart-breaking to end that relationship because in most other respects he was (is) a great guy whom I cared for very deeply (even loved.) However, I knew damn well (and I wasn't an atheist at this time) I could never be happy in this sort of a relationship placing those requirements on my conduct ... nor could I ever bring myself to attend his Church (which was a controlling cult in my opinion) and raise any children we had with that mindset. He felt the same way about my lack of Christian belief (I was a liberal theist/quasi Christian questioning my faith at the time) and it was not fair of either of us to demand the other compromise our belief systems to make the relationship work (even if I felt his belief system was totally fucked up.)

We were both REALLY hurt by it and we even attempted reconciliation after a year of rekindling and maintaining our friendship. Unfortunately, my lack of belief grew stronger and the other problems inherent to our relationship still remained. Even if those other problems were fixed nothing could overcome my lack of belief and his earnest belief in the validity of the Bible. It was a damn shame and to this day I still think he is a wonderful man, but there are certain things I don't believe can be truly compromised. My self-respect demanded I remain true to myself however painful that was. It took a while for me to get over him, but I went on, dated many different men, established a few relationships and then found a man to accept for who I am, not despite of it.

The thought of living in my previous "born-again" relationship is agonizing. I would have been, and he would have been absolutely miserable with the constant battle of wills and divergent beliefs.

One simply shouldn't, when the opportunity is still available, water ones self down or compromise integral parts of one's integrity in order to maintain a relationship. It only leads to unhappiness and only a very strong few can overcome that enormous obstacle. Divorce wouldn't be so prevelant if this wasn't the case in so many ways other then religion.

Brighid

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by brettc
Ok,

Both sides changed. I missed that part. It's still offensive to me that she's going to dump him even though he's willing to participate with the lifestyle she wants to live. He just can't flip on the fantasy belief switch and go through life drooling over Jebus with her. I understand that regardless of who's right or wrong, it's not surprising that either of them are unwilling to live with this conflict.

I'm curious if it's just this issue of religion or if this is indicative of other issues that might be a problem as well. Family, finances, other wants and wishes, future plans, careers, children, etc etc. SI appears willing to compromise on religion, she apparently won't. I'm curious how many other issues she might handle the same way. Soul Inviticus, any comment?

Well, she has told me that this is the maker-breaker. Of course there's the tics that annoy you, however those are livable. Apparently she told her sister that except for this " I was perfect" so it appears this religion is the bug in the relationship.

Just in case my scenario didn't explain quite as well, for the first year going on two, I was the man she wanted. Although I'd done my own research throughout the relationship, it never presented a problem because although she professed Christianity, there hadn't been a terrible lot to be concerned with. I attended church, as did she. This was the extent that Christianity seemed relevant. Not really a fundamental lifestyle. No weekly bible study classes. None of that. I always spoke of things I'd learned like Paul's agenda, and the ecumenical councils. Since she never really portrayed herself as a fundy, I thought she was open to these criticisms as well...that coupled with the fact that she was an anthropology major, so I figured she was somewhat flexible in not being dogmatic in her faith. Our demise started one night when I told her I wouldn't be going to church and I'd made some kind of comment about it. She then probed and asked was I a heathen? That kicked off the fireworks and we'd gotten to know more about each other's values from there. I wouldn't say I was dishonest in my feelings because there didn't appear to be a reason for me to warrant talking a lot about them, as I was learning, and my situation didn't show a reason to hide them. We talk about things however I like talking about religion and politics, which she doesn't know a whole lot about either so she doesn't like talking about either...So I guess there really came no urgency to talk about it. They were kinda just there, and I'd say comments here and there. She's an africology major now, so I don't know how she reconciles a fundie approach still...after taking a Hebrew studies class and taking African religious classes and her and I speaking on a personal level with one of the professors in that field in his home. All of these situations made me think she was somewhat liberal. She was the one who bought me 101 Myths of the Bible: How Ancient Scribes Invented Biblical History by Gary Greenberg (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1570715866/qid=1061409178/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/103-4978710-96606604978710-9660660) ! Now I'm like what's really going on? I would say that some tell-tale signs of my less conservative approach were there, since we never formally discussed our views.

Unfortunately this paradigm shift in thought wasn't fully delved into until earlier this year, so I guess that was a communication problem that we both are guilty of.

[BadBadBad]

Brigid,

I absolutely agree with you. Had I known what I know now, I would have steered away from my wife just like steered away from women who smoked or had emotional issues, or any number of other potential issues.

What burns me is the ultimate hypocrisy of the whole thing. They want to go to church and wear their christianity like a big scarlet letter for all to see. For some of them, being a badge wearing christian isn't enough. They have to stand in the pews and waive their hands in the air like God's got a great big holy spot light shining down from heaven just for them. Look at me. I'm a christian! Guess they just never got around to actually reading their Bible in Matthew 6 right before they recite the lord's prayer in the midst of all their badge wearing christian friends.

They want to get all tied up in a relationship all the same time ignoring everything the Bible says about what we should and shouldn't do in a relationship. Guess they forgot what Paul and Peter wrote. They're all worried about the kids, but they forgot what the Bible says about salvation and damnation and whose responsible. They want to tithe their money to the church, but they forget to think about how appalling it must be to Jesus knowing what the church does with their money. They might tithe some of their money, but they forget about all the rest of it, the rich man, the needle, the camel, and the ease of getting to heaven.

They say they want to be a christian, live in a christian household, live a christian lifestyle, but they reject almost as much of the Bible as I do. So it seems to me that if they can reject that much on their own, surely they can compromise a little more on the rest.

Seems to me that the biggest part of the problem is that living with an atheist is a constant reminder that your little fairy tale is a crock of shit. Sure takes the fun out of going to church when you can't focus on your little day dream and you realize there's no spotlight from God shining on you, and you could be home with the rest of you family relaxing on a lazy Sunday morning. It's like little girls pretending to have a tea party when there's little boys around teasing them that there's no pot, tea, or cups. Even if the boys don't say anything, just knowing they're laughing inside sure takes the fun out of it.

It's one big crock of shit, but it represents the one true prophesy in the bible. Matthew 10:34-37 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Did you ever notice that Jesus didn't include husband against wife in this? Hmm, I wonder why he left that part out? It's one big crock of shit, but as atheists, that's what we're signing up for when we get tied up with christians in a relationship.

[brighid]

brettc,

I totally understand your frustration with the hypocrisy bit. I see it too and when I was a Christian it is one of the motivating factors that lead me to leave the Church because it wasn't just the congregants, but it was also the priests, the hierarchy and the whole damned thing. Some people, some good people existed ... but I couldn't cling to that. I found there were good people regardless of religion and I found that was a personal choice, not some divine intervention.

I am sorry you have been so personally hurt by this type of conflict. It has got to suck, and although I was never divorced I understand the trauma these things have on a family. Fighting a custody battle with a man you never married ... well I don't think it's too much different. It sure made me take marriage VERY seriously and I learned the hard way that I had to be ME, not what someone else wanted me to be because the consequences can be catastrophic.

I don't know what we, as atheists, can do about this common conflict ... except operate from a point of honesty and personal integrity. Unfortunately, as a hated minority we will be the ones to lose the most socially. Perhaps I am a glutton for punishment, but my self-respect is too important or perhaps I am just an elitist bitch ... some would say anyway.

I hope people can learn from your experience (and Vicar Phillips, blondegoddess, et al) so others can avoid this pain and suffering. I don't think we will see the full acceptance of atheism in this lifetime ... sadly ...

Brighid

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
Well, she has told me that this is the maker-breaker.

So if this was such a frickin deal breaker, why the hell didn't she make that part of the deal up front? Seems like that's what dating is all about. Are you a drunk, druggie, wife beater, violent beligerant bastard, irresponsible low life slacker, etc, etc, and oh yes what about heathen scum?

it never presented a problem because although she professed Christianity, there hadn't been a terrible lot to be concerned with. I attended church, as did she. This was the extent that Christianity seemed relevant. Not really a fundamental lifestyle. No weekly bible study classes. None of that.

Same with my situation except neither of us went to church. Religion just never came up. She started talking about wanting to visit churches before we got married, and we did. It wasn't a deal breaker until we'd been married for about ten years. So why if life is great for 2 years in your case and 10 in mine is this all the sudden such a deal breaker?

Our demise started one night when I told her I wouldn't be going to church and I'd made some kind of comment about it. She then probed and asked was I a heathen?

There it is. Heathen scum. I'll tell you SI, you'll never be out from under that label with this girl. If you were to move forward, there would be a whole list of normal grievances. She might not ever admit it, but underneath it all would be the heathen scum label. It's your root problem. That defines you as a person to her. Honestly, if I ever get divorced, I don't think I could accept that label from anyone else ever again. It's one of the things I resent most about my wife, and as long as she holds that label on me, I don't think we'll ever have a good relationship.

[HelenM]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
Unfortunately this paradigm shift in thought wasn't fully delved into until earlier this year, so I guess that was a communication problem that we both are guilty of.

Well, whether you both should have discussed your beliefs/nonbeliefs more earlier in your relationship and whether or not your and her views have changed also, you're now at a place where you have discussed them and her conclusion is that your beliefs are too different from hers for the relationship to work.

I find her position easier to understand than yours and I don't think that's simply because I'm a Christian. If the situation were reversed and it was the atheist breaking up with the Christian and the Christian saying "can't we make it work?" I would find the atheist's position easier to understand. Because Darrell is right - for all sorts of reasons it can be very hard to be married to someone who does not share your beliefs/nonbeliefs. I'm not sure you've entirely understood this if you think that you attending church would make a big difference. It quite possibly wouldn't - I say this because I've been to church with non-Christians and with all due respect, I'd rather go by myself than sit there with someone whose expression and body language make it quite clear how much they disagree with what is being said. Imagine going to a movie with your girlfriend and even if she doesn't actually sit there saying "this is garbage!!!" you can tell what she is thinking.

I suspect you'd rather go to the movie by yourself because you are going to be affected by her feelings about it if she's right next to you. And she may also resent you for 'making her go' even if she did agree to go, which means it was her choice.

It's not just about being willing to go where the other person goes. If you're not interested and enthusiastic when you get there, it's probably best for the other person if you don't go at all.

So, I think the break-up of the relationship has more to do with the differences in what is important to each of you and what you get excited about, than whether you would be willing to attend religious gatherings with her. I hope that makes sense to you.

Anyway my goal is simply to try to help you see why the difference in beliefs between the two of you you seem so significant to her. It seems to me that part of the reason you're finding her decision difficult is that you're wondering why it is such a big deal to her. I hope this helps you understand that a bit better, even though I realize it doesn't give you any 'answers'.

Helen

[beth]

I'm going to have to agree with Helen. I haven't read all of this thread, but I have the general overview. First of all, I wanted to saty that I understand your pain and empathise with you.

I am in a relationship with a Christian. I deconverted after eleven years of marriage and after being very active in the church. It has been very hard to heap religious differences onto the relationship when we also have life to live with.

I actually think you ex did the most admirable thing. She forsaw that it would be too hard for her to maintain a relationship with you and that your differences in faith caused too much of a gap between you. It seems to me that she wants a partner that will not challenge or threaten her faith. Like she wants to have harmony in beliefs when she brings up her children. Let me tell you, the children and how they are raised can cause major discord in the family. I basically let my husband raise the kids spiritually, but I get infuriated at times at some of the BS he tells them and it causes major arguments. Your ex spared you from that.

Let me say that I do respect the beliefs that my husband has and that my children have been taught, but I am often seen as a threat because I don't believe. We can talk about god and how this or that prayer was answered, and I'll try to be supportive, but he often perceives it as me humoring him.

Now, as long as we can find a way to meet in a middle ground, we can figure our way out, and our love and our love for our children help us to define that middle ground. I also know that relationships between atheists and theists can work but these people go into the relationship with their eyes open and with a resolve to not let religion cloud them from seeing the person they love. Perhaps your ex knew that she could not do such a thing. Perhaps she recognized it was doomed to fail because of hers and your personalities. Be glad that children did not enter into the picture to muck things up. Take this as a growing experience and learn from it.

Good luck, I wish you happiness and I hope that your heart will heal quickly.

[BadBadBad]

Did you guys ever read the The Sneetches by Dr Seuss? It's my favorite children's book. Even though the story is probably related to southern racism, it's also so applicable to christianity. Read the story here:The Sneetches (http://twiki.thericehouse.net/bin/view/Main/DrSeussTheSneetches)

The christian wants to be a star bellied sneetch. The atheist doesn't like the way star bellied sneetches act so he doesn't want to be one. Who wants to go to their frankfurter roasts Or picnics, or parties, or marshmallow toasts anyway? "With their snoots in the air they would sniff and they'd snort "We'll have nothing to do with the Plain-Belly sort!"

So in this case, as I understand, the christian is a star bellied sneetch, and she's put her snoot in the air and she's decided she'll have nothing to do with the plain-belly sort. Either that or she's paid Sylvester McMonkey McBean her money to go through his peculiar machine to become a star bellied sneetch. Now she wants to live her life with the star bellied sneetches.

Sorry, but I just don't see anything particularly noble here. She wants to be one of the snootie old smarties down at the church, and heathen boy plain belly sneetch just won't fit in. So she's dumping him. Hey, let's give her a big hand for that. Heathen boy wouldn't want to be put down by the old hypocrite smarties down at the church, so, she's doing him a big favor. You have to give it to her for that. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, there's no good ending in this story. The Christian sneetches never got smart to realize there's no kind of sneetch that's best on the beaches. They never forgot about stars and whether they had one, or not, upon thars. They never got ol' Sylvester McMonkey McBean to come in and stir things up and knock some sense into them. No, good ol' christian star bellied sneetch is off to her frankfurter parties, and whenever she meets heathen boy when she's out walking she'll hike right on past him without even talking.

Right. That's the best we can expect from christian girl. No, not at all. I think it's fair for Soul Inviticus to expect more from a friend he's been involved with for two years. I think she's a scumbag for setting up life with SI and now dumping him for a life where her new social community will exclude him. If she found out he was a loser alcoholic or he was cheating on her, then ok, she's justified. Not this though. Christianity is false. She's dumping him because of a fairy tale. She's dumping him to become a star bellied sneetch.

[beth]

Brett, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. She has every right to determine if her religious differences will affect her life and happiness.Do you honestly think it is a happy existence for a Christian to bring children into the world, knowing their spouse will conflict with the religious raising of the children? Who wants to raise a kid who will most likely be doomed to hell? Also, I'm sure it isn't very fun or healthy to be in love with and worry about the spouse's spiritual afterlife. The existense of the afterlife or hell is irrelevant because it is fact in her mind.

There are more things involved here, I'm sure, beside her just wanting to be a star-bellied Sneetch. The atheist can be as much of a bigot and preduduced toward the theist star bellied Sneetch as the theist can be toward the non-star bellied Sneetch atheist. I saw The Sneetches as a story about bigotry, predudice, and segregation.

[beth]

SI, I am sorry that I could not offer you comfort, but honestly, you probably are better off. I read more of the thread and saw some of the concessions that you made out of respect for her. But I think you would find misery in your relationship. She obviously couldn't look past her beliefs and accept you as you are. But I still think she did the right thing as far as your ultimate happiness will be concerned. Sometimes people grow apart and it is better that it happened before children came into the issue. I really hope that you will be able to heal from this and will be able to find another who will accept you for you, regardless of religious belief.

Honestly, though, I think you were spared from what could have become a hellish situation...

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by beth
She has every right to determine if her religious differences will affect her life and happiness.

Yes, she has every right, however, I don't agree that it's noble or respectable for this women to dump SI over belief in fairy tales anymore that it would be noble for her to dump him to marry a richer nicer guy. I understand why she's dumping him, but I disagree with all this talk about respect and that she's doing him a favor. She's only doing him a favor in that she's unreasonably decided to dogmatically pursue a christian lifestyle despite the impact to her relationship with him. Would you be any more understanding with her if she decided she wanted to be rich, she's decided she'll never be happy unless she is rich, so she's dumping him because she wants to find a rich husband? Like I said, it's understandable. It's just not noble or respectable.

Do you honestly think it is a happy existence for a Christian to bring children into the world, knowing their spouse will conflict with the religious raising of the children?

Society will conflict with her religious raising of the children. And again, is it respectable to brainwash children into a fairy tale religious cult?

Who wants to raise a kid who will most likely be doomed to hell? Also, I'm sure it isn't very fun or healthy to be in love with and worry about the spouse's spiritual afterlife. The existense of the afterlife or hell is irrelevant because it is fact in her mind.

Hell doesn't exist. These beliefs are by definition unreasonable. To dump SI over unreasonable ideals is not a respectable thing to do.

There are more things involved here, I'm sure, beside her just wanting to be a star-bellied Sneetch. The atheist can be as much of a bigot and preduduced toward the theist star bellied Sneetch as the theist can be toward the non-star bellied Sneetch atheist. I saw The Sneetches as a story about bigotry, predudice, and segregation.

The atheist can be just as much of a bigot and so can the black man. However, in general, that bigotry is a direct result of racism against the black man and the kind of bigotry that we atheists are exposed to throughout our life at the hands of the snootie old christian smarties. So, the story is definitely applicable with respect to the inherrent biggotry of christianity.

There are more things involved than the frankfurter parties I'm sure. There's the scorn of the hypocrites at the church when the wife shows up without hubbie and or children. There's the kids and the conflicting message of indoctrination. All kind of like a white woman marrying a black man in the racist south. The white woman wants to teach her children all about racism, but daddy keeps on telling them it's not so. Even if he doesn't, his mere presence as a loving father and role model serves to conflict with Mom's attempt at indoctrinating the kids into racism. Understandable yes, respectable no.

[Soul Invictus]

I did speak to her for a few minutes at her job. She couldn't speak so she said she'd send me an email. In the email, she was saying how she was getting choked up when I called, so that's why she cut the conversation. She asked me if I would go to dinner with her tonight after work..her treat?

Any advice for the conversation? I'm not sure exactly where she'll be coming from...

[beth]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I did speak to her for a few minutes at her job. She couldn't speak so she said she'd send me an email. In the email, she was saying how she was getting choked up when I called, so that's why she cut the conversation. She asked me if I would go to dinner with her tonight after work..her treat?

Any advice for the conversation? I'm not sure exactly where she'll be coming from... OK, there is a good chance she'll try to presure you to convert...

If you do talk, you seriously need to discuss religious differences and where your future may lie because of them. You need to give her an ultimatum so that you will not be strung along.

If she rejects you, then you are able to heal much more quickly and you will know where she stands. Good luck!

[brighid]

Soul Invictus,

I think beth's advise is pretty sound. This is a subject, if you feel you still desire to pursue a future with this girl, that MUST be acknowledged and worked out. Don't avoid it in order to avoid conflict.

Whenever I have expected a stressful or emotional situation like this I found it helpful to write my thoughts down ahead of time so I could have a clear understanding (and hopefully not forget things) to keep the conversation on track. If anything it provided me an opportunity to examine my own feelings more closely to see if I was the one being unreasonable, a loon, etc.

You could even cut and paste some of the helpful or insightful information you have found here into some sort of thought outline.

Just be honest, don't be so afraid of conflict that it stops you from doing what you know needs to be done and again be honest. Whatever happens at least you will know that you did not decieve yourself or her for the sake of temporary comfort.

I hope it works out for the best and please let us know how things went.

Brighid

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I did speak to her for a few minutes at her job. She couldn't speak so she said she'd send me an email. In the email, she was saying how she was getting choked up when I called, so that's why she cut the conversation. She asked me if I would go to dinner with her tonight after work..her treat?

Any advice for the conversation? I'm not sure exactly where she'll be coming from...

Obviously, it seems you'd like to continue the relationship. However, you've been given a wake up call. There's a lot more on the line than just to start things back up as they were. She's defined this as a make or break deal. Now what? She's open for compromising on that? Or, she wants to give you one more chance to fall in line? Or, she wants you both to feel better about a permanent breakup? I'm curious what she has on her mind.

I'd say that if this is to continue that this business of the deal breaker is got to be thrown into the trash forever. You're an atheist. She's got to deal with that just like you've got to deal with her being a christian. There's going to be a lot of situations that come up that will be a slap in the face throughout your relationship from both sides.

I could list a dozen instances where conflicts over religion have brought my wife and I to the brink of divorce. Not family, not politics, not finances, not even how we treat each other or the kids in general. Just religion.

So I think, if it is to continue, she's got to examine her priorities and open up a big door for compromise to you. I think you need to look a little farther ahead to think about her recent reactions to who you are and what she wants out of life to realize how much you too are going to have to compromise.

You also need to really think about trust at this point as well. Once you come to breaking up or in my case threats of divorce, it's tough to come back from that. You really need to look hard between self pity and fear of an immediate future alone as compared to trying to continue with this girl whose decided that you're so far from what she expects out of a relationship that she wants to break up with you.

[brighid]

You also need to really think about trust at this point as well. Once you come to breaking up or in my case threats of divorce, it's tough to come back from that. You really need to look hard between self pity and fear of an immediate future alone as compared to trying to continue with this girl whose decided that you're so far from what she expects out of a relationship that she wants to break up with you.

This is very sage advise brettc!

B

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by brighid
I don't know what we, as atheists, can do about this common conflict ... except operate from a point of honesty and personal integrity. Unfortunately, as a hated minority we will be the ones to lose the most socially. Perhaps I am a glutton for punishment, but my self-respect is too important or perhaps I am just an elitist bitch ... some would say anyway.


I was reading back on this and thinking about it. Hated minority. Yeah, that bugs me a lot. What can we do about it? As a member of the hated minority, I learned a long time ago as a child that being an atheist wasn't viewed as a good thing. I realized that what I believe in my own little mind is my own business, and I can think what ever I want. When I realized that, I was atheist at somewhere between 9-12. I learned to get by in silence. Silence at all costs. That was my tool to fit in. Silence worked great for me for a long time. I tried church for a little while after I got out of college just for the social aspect. Silence didn't work too good there.

Silence really fell down though when I started to get into relationships. It didn't work there at all. I tried to hide behind silence. I tried to say I just didn't like church. I tried to profess agnostic or deist type answers to probing questions. Sometimes that would work for quite a while, but eventually the christian has got to pin you down. You're a Heathen aren't you?

As long as you can dodge that label, you have hope. You're somehow more acceptable. After that though, you're toast. If you think about their dogma, they can't really help themselves to whack you down to the level of worthlessness that must be associated with your pending damnation by our omni-benevolent God. That's it for me. That's the whole issue. The christian can live their life without the whole church cult. Most do. The christian can live without brainwashing the kids in the whole church dogma and cult. Most do. Your existence in "denial" of god though. You as a constant reminder to them that their little fairy tale is just that. That's got to be a pretty tough pill to swallow, day in day out.

What can we do? In relationships, I've learned silence and evasion is definitely not the answer. Goliath used to say he comes out with "guns blazing." I'm an atheist. Deal with it. You want to talk about religion? Fine. Let's talk. You want me to go to church? Forget it, and here's why. You think we should teach our kids about religion? Fine, let's get out the Bible and start reading. We'll all read together, then we'll all have a nice discussion on what we've read (should have seen the look on my wife's face on that one!). You want to take the kids down for some good ol' fundie brainwashing? Not on your life.

That's what I've learned since I got fed up with my place as heathen boy in my family and found atheist literature on the Internet along with IIDB. It's been a long and sometimes viscous battle with surely more to come, but I'm not going to be held down by that label anymore. I'll never hide behind silence again.

[HelenM]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I did speak to her for a few minutes at her job. She couldn't speak so she said she'd send me an email. In the email, she was saying how she was getting choked up when I called, so that's why she cut the conversation. She asked me if I would go to dinner with her tonight after work..her treat?

Any advice for the conversation? I'm not sure exactly where she'll be coming from...

I see you've already got advice...I hope you'll post later or tomorrow and let us know how it went.

Helen

[beth]

All kind of like a white woman marrying a black man in the racist south. The white woman wants to teach her children all about racism, but daddy keeps on telling them it's not so. Even if he doesn't, his mere presence as a loving father and role model serves to conflict with Mom's attempt at indoctrinating the kids into racism. Understandable yes, respectable no. Brett, I have to interject on this notion. It is highly unlikely for a woman in the South to teach her children racism against blacks if she is, herself, married to a black man and has children of a mixed race by him.

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by brettc

There's going to be a lot of situations that come up that will be a slap in the face throughout your relationship from both sides.
I could list a dozen instances where conflicts over religion have brought my wife and I to the brink of divorce. Not family, not politics, not finances, not even how we treat each other or the kids in general. Just religion.


I'd concur with you that the doctrinal control issue is what can be the most devisive issue in a relationship. I have tried to anticipate problematic situations that could come up in which I'd be in a bad predicament. She hasn't exhibitied fundy behavior in our relationship, but as you noted, once children are in the picture, things can change, and change quickly. I want to see what moderation can do. I am not averse to all Christian precepts, especially on morality issues, but then again, I'm not averse to that in any religion. Without a track record from her for fundy behavior, my limited scope prohibits me from seeing realistic problems that could surmise...problems I am sure you've had to deal with. I was hoping you could go into this more, as you've unfortunately been down this road.


You also need to really think about trust at this point as well. Once you come to breaking up or in my case threats of divorce, it's tough to come back from that. You really need to look hard between self pity and fear of an immediate future alone as compared to trying to continue with this girl whose decided that you're so far from what she expects out of a relationship that she wants to break up with you.

I am trying to give her some benefit of the doubt. I would hope that her primary motives are based on fear. Fear and ignorance. Fear of branching out on what she doesn't know, or for fear of appearing rebellious, and ignorant in the fact that much thought hasn't been conducted with respect to certain values that she holds. People naturally are inclined to grab hold to what they have when they don't know what to hold on to. I would say this could be typical for any deconversion process. Fortunately I wasn't fundamental in my Christianity from the beginning. I was a liberal minded child and had an inquisitive nature to the things that I was told even as a child. As a young child, I got the scapegoat answers of " Don't question God" or " God works in mysterious ways" and those were not sufficient for me then, so in my understanding more about that which that I was taught, it wasn't traumatic at all for me. I just would think that her, not coming from the same mode of thinking (with her mom being a minister especially) she is less inclined to be receptive to anything from the start, but not necessarily ever. I think this issue is something that could be genuinely worked through with exposure to new information and careful handling. (Sometimes speaking with conservative Christians take a bit of work, especially if they are to come out of the tunnel vision mode. This is what I hope to do. I think I can trust her still. I think that if anything, she's scared that I'm trying to take God and her spiritual experiences that she has from her. I am only offering a less conservative, more tolerable and less dogmatic approach. This is all I ask.

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by brettc
Obviously, it seems you'd like to continue the relationship. However, you've been given a wake up call. There's a lot more on the line than just to start things back up as they were. She's defined this as a make or break deal. Now what? She's open for compromising on that? Or, she wants to give you one more chance to fall in line? Or, she wants you both to feel better about a permanent breakup? I'm curious what she has on her mind.


Yes, I would love to continue a relationship with her. I do believe there is a chance. I think I have accepted that I might have to move on. It still hurts, however I'm dealing with it as best I can. To all the posters here, the advice has also helped me with my resolve. Really, this outlet has been highly instrumental in my dealing with this ordeal.

I didn't quite know what she wanted out of the dinner. The questions you posed brettc, are all questions I wanted to know, but I figured that since she invited me, I would follow her lead in terms of discussion.

She inquired about how I'd been doing, and I told her how I felt about her, what my intentions were, and the like. I asked her how she was and she told me. During the conversation, it felt like old times. She was talkative, which she is at times, and I was in awe of her. I asked her what her goals were and one of them was to work on her friendship with me. I didn't know how to take that, because of her sister's information via an earlier post. I'm trying not to delude myself into thinking that she does want to work it out, however I also don't want to embrace that idea, if she hasn't fully embraced it either. We talked. I gave her some flowers. I dropped her off. That was that. Her phone is off til Saturday, and I asked her if she still wanted to go on the Labor Day Picnic we usually have, she said she'd get back to me. In conclusion, the pros were that we did communicate for the first time since Friday (in person) and had intimate conversation about how each other feels about the other, so that's always good. The cons were that it did not touch on the critical issues about where we are, and what will we be/ can be. I will keep you all updated about when I attend church with them on Sunday. Her mom invited me along, and I think we are supposed to have a informal chat. We'll see how that goes...

Til next time.

[Suaup]

Soul, I hope this works out for the best and in the end you can reflect on this knowing you're a better person for dealing with this in such a rational, supportive, and open minded way. The only advice I can offer you based on my relationships is it's important to hold your fundemental beliefs and not bend on them. I think you feel that way too.

In the event you can't work out your differences, I know this may be difficult and seem hard to do, but for sometime I believe you should break off contact with her and not attempt to be friends till both of you have truly moved on. If it's clear to you that she's trying to build a friendship between you, and have you two do buddy things while she tells you about the nice Christian men she's dating, it'll only cause conflict for both of you. Time and time again I've found trying to be friends too soon after a relationship is just too hard for both individuals, especially if one feels too strongly about the other. It's not fair for either of you to try to be friends and pretend everything is alright after a two year relationship as serious as this one. After a few months pass, things should be better for both of you.

How you're handeling this is admirable. I hope you truly get what you want.

[HelenM]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I asked her what her goals were and one of them was to work on her friendship with me. I didn't know how to take that, because of her sister's information via an earlier post. I'm trying not to delude myself into thinking that she does want to work it out, however I also don't want to embrace that idea, if she hasn't fully embraced it either.

It sounds to me like she's talking about 'just friends'. I don't see any indication in what you said that she wants to return to a closer relationship than that.

The cons were that it did not touch on the critical issues about where we are, and what will we be/ can be.

I think she would have told you if she'd changed her mind about breaking up with you but staying friends. I don't see any indication that she has changed her position the least bit so far.

I will keep you all updated about when I attend church with them on Sunday. Her mom invited me along, and I think we are supposed to have a informal chat. We'll see how that goes...

Til next time.

As far as I can tell, the only reasons you're going to church are 1) to get a chance to talk to her and/or 2) to prove you're willing to go if it makes a close relationship possible with her. You have zero interest in church for its own sake, as best I can tell.

I don't think those are good reasons for going, myself. You know she's willing to talk to you without you going to church because she invited you to dinner last nght. And I don't believe she's looking for a partner who attends church but has zero interest in it, as I've already said. I think she's looking for someone who shares her religious values and interests and beliefs. There's a big difference between the two and I'm sure you're not unaware of that.

If you want to go to church with them, go, of course. But I think you'll be disappointed if you expect going to move you any closer to your own goals.

They'll probably all want you to go just in case something you hear will change your mind about their faith. So I expect they're pleased you want to.

Helen

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I'd concur with you that the doctrinal control issue is what can be the most devisive issue in a relationship. I have tried to anticipate problematic situations that could come up in which I'd be in a bad predicament. She hasn't exhibitied fundy behavior in our relationship, but as you noted, once children are in the picture, things can change, and change quickly. I want to see what moderation can do. I am not averse to all Christian precepts, especially on morality issues, but then again, I'm not averse to that in any religion. Without a track record from her for fundy behavior, my limited scope prohibits me from seeing realistic problems that could surmise...problems I am sure you've had to deal with. I was hoping you could go into this more, as you've unfortunately been down this road.

How about the whole concept of Heaven and Hell and whose going there? How about that as the most basic morality issue? Think ahead to the day where your beautiful child looks you in the face and asks with a sad concerned face "Daddy? Are you going to Hell?" That hasn't hasn't happened directly, but my beautiful girl told me that Daddy is bad bad bad one day when we discussed God. Imagine how that made me feel that my wife is teaching our child that. This to me is an unavoidable predicament.

If my wife is successful, it will be permanent for the rest of my life, my children's life, and even my grand children's lives as they all mourn my pending death and eternal damnation in Hell. Not only that, but imagine how the scenario above influences the relationships in other ways. The direct message my wife attaches with her religious teachings is to not trust Daddy. Don't rely on what Daddy has to say. Mommy is the authoritative figure that you need to look up to. You need to cling to Mommy for your eternal survival. Let's keep this a secret. Don't trust Daddy with this secret. This is just a taste of christianity in a mixed marriage, and there's no way around it. There's no compromise. If she compromises, she's risking the children's eternal damnation. If I have to compromise, I have to suck up to the reality of what she's doing to my children and our relationship. You can't have it both ways. Both sides exist in conflict and the kids are hopelessly torn in the middle. Regardless of how you play it, one side will dominate and win out completely and the other will lose everything.

I am trying to give her some benefit of the doubt.

You did, but now you've crossed a pretty significant boundary. She chose her fairy tale over your relationship. You should think about how much doubt that has cleared up.

I just would think that her, not coming from the same mode of thinking (with her mom being a minister especially) she is less inclined to be receptive to anything from the start, but not necessarily ever.

Think about this SI. You implied earlier that Mom was on your side. She's not. What you're talking about in essence is deconversion. She may be receptive to that eventually, but keep in mind that her deconversion will come at a great cost to her relationship with her family. Because her mom is a minister, and because she has such close ties to religion through her family, she is all the more likely to never deconvert. Influence from her family can potentially be a long standing problem for your relationship. All the more so because mom is a minister.


I think this issue is something that could be genuinely worked through with exposure to new information and careful handling. (Sometimes speaking with conservative Christians take a bit of work, especially if they are to come out of the tunnel vision mode. This is what I hope to do. I think I can trust her still. I think that if anything, she's scared that I'm trying to take God and her spiritual experiences that she has from her. I am only offering a less conservative, more tolerable and less dogmatic approach. This is all I ask.

Seems so simple doesn't it. She broke up with you though, and you didn't even make it to some of the real toughies like dealing with the kids. I think what you need at this point is to offer her a trash can. Throw some of this crap in here and then we can talk. Seems so simple doesn't it! :)

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
She inquired about how I'd been doing, and I told her how I felt about her, what my intentions were, and the like. I asked her how she was and she told me. During the conversation, it felt like old times. She was talkative, which she is at times, and I was in awe of her. I asked her what her goals were and one of them was to work on her friendship with me. I didn't know how to take that, because of her sister's information via an earlier post. I'm trying not to delude myself into thinking that she does want to work it out, however I also don't want to embrace that idea, if she hasn't fully embraced it either. We talked. I gave her some flowers. I dropped her off. That was that. Her phone is off til Saturday, and I asked her if she still wanted to go on the Labor Day Picnic we usually have, she said she'd get back to me. In conclusion, the pros were that we did communicate for the first time since Friday (in person) and had intimate conversation about how each other feels about the other, so that's always good. The cons were that it did not touch on the critical issues about where we are, and what will we be/ can be. I will keep you all updated about when I attend church with them on Sunday. Her mom invited me along, and I think we are supposed to have a informal chat. We'll see how that goes...


SI, it looks to me like she's made her decision. You're sure not going to make any progress with her surrounded by family in her church. What kind of life is that for you anyway?

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by brettc
SI, it looks to me like she's made her decision. You're sure not going to make any progress with her surrounded by family in her church. What kind of life is that for you anyway?

It's difficult to see how she'd just throw all of what we had away, and so quickly. Her phone is off til tomorrow. When she calls, what do we talk about?

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
It's difficult to see how she'd just throw all of what we had away, and so quickly. Her phone is off til tomorrow. When she calls, what do we talk about?

What is there really to talk about? Surely she knows that the door is open. If she is thinking about changing her mind, she'll let you know. You clinging on after she's broken up with you is going to change the dynamics of the relationship. You don't want to come across as clingy, sad and pathetic. That won't help your case any. I'd say you ought to take Suaup's advice and break off contact with her. If she has regrets and wants to talk about your relationship rather than chit chat over dinner, she has your number.

[brighid]

It's difficult to see how she'd just throw all of what we had away, and so quickly. Her phone is off til tomorrow. When she calls, what do we talk about?

As a woman with strong convictions I can tell you that although it isn't easy to do it is necessary! There is a difference. If she believes the Christian message it is even more necessary for her to make this break. Also, having broken up with someone over religion (his conversion as I previously mentioned) I can say that it was painful, but I really had no other choice. I knew darn well that I wasn't going to change, nor could I expect he would either. That simply isn't fair.

My ex was (and is) a great guy, but his new found (or more aptly, strongly affirmed) belief system made it impossible for us to carrying on a relationship based on equality and mutual respect, no matter how good either of us were. We would be in a constant power struggle and he would have his family and his Church to support him. I would be the odd man out and the pressure would be devastating. He needs a good, Christian woman who buys the whole authority crap hook, line and sinker. I was not that woman, nor could I ever be even if I could tolerate (in some degree) going to Church.

Helen is right when she says your ex (and more importantly YOU) deserve someone who isn't going to pretend or merely tolerate the others deeply held belief system. Christianity is much more then some common sense moral codes. If it was this wouldn't be so much a problem. You should well know by now that doing all the good works and being a moral person doesn't matter to many Christians. What is most important is that you BELIEVE and the OBEY. If you don't believe you are lost, period.

I also agree with brettc that her mother is more likely coming from a point of view that your willingness to compromise and also attend Church is a sign of weakness that can be exploited to bring an otherwise wonderful, young man like yourself back to the fold and into the loving arms of Jesus. This way her daughter can be happy again and one will have been won for God.

Of course I don't know this girl, you or her mother but, in my experience human nature can be rather predictable.

Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt (most times anyway.) It is noble and even necessary that you exhaust all your options of reconciliation with this woman you love, but are you willing to compromise your self-respect in order to maintain a relationship with a woman who simply cannot accept you for who you truly are because you don't believe in her God? I know, in your mind, such a things is nonesensical. In reality such a things is nonesensical, but when you have "faith" in a belief system that demands you not question it in order to obtain ETERNAL salvation, one may block out real information in order to maintain that faith.

Unless she comes to a lack of belief on her own fruition I doubt this obstacle can ever be reconciled to an equitable end.

B

[Soul Invictus]

I recognize she may have moved on. I still don't know what I'm to talk about when she calls, though. Do I respond to the questions she asks, or do I assert the issues going on?

[brighid]

I recognize she may have moved on. I still don't know what I'm to talk about when she calls, though. Do I respond to the questions she asks, or do I assert the issues going on?

What do YOU want out of the conversation?

Don't wait for her to initiate conversation, but I would say that I don't think you may get very far by asserting any of the issues going on. They are mute.

If you haven't already done the break-up and try to be friends thing with someone you still have intense feelings for be prepared from a bit of an emotional rollercoaster (which you appear to be on - at least you are on the ride and slowly coming out of the gate just before the big drop off.) It is REALLY, REALLY difficult to do until you have put some mental and emotional distance between the two of you.

How are you going to feel the first time she shares with you that she met some good Christian boy?

You have to make the decisions that are right for you and learn from your own mistakes, but I would also recommend taking a break even from friendship. I know that seems like an impossible thing with someone who has been a part of your every waking hour for two years, and it may need to be a gradual break ... but there will come a day when your friendship won't be all that important to her, especially when she meets someone new and it will hurt like a break-up all over again. Then she will come back to you as a friend for comfort and solace when things go wrong and then the line between friendship and romance will blur again, only for the cycle to repeat.

Brighid

[HelenM]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I recognize she may have moved on. I still don't know what I'm to talk about when she calls, though. Do I respond to the questions she asks, or do I assert the issues going on?

I think she's trying to make 'just friends' work and that's why she took you out to dinner and will call you when she can. I don't see evidence she wants the relationship to go any further than that.

If I'm right that that's what she wants, what are you going to do?

Helen

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by brighid
What do YOU want out of the conversation?


I just want to hear her from her how she views me and our relationship and where we can go. I almost feel like she is telling me one thing, and I'm getting a false sense of hope from her sister, whom she speaks to. I don't want to let her go, however I also am not trying to come across as if I can't acknowledge that I might have to.

I just am unsure of how to proceed, is all. I want to know how to speak with her about this.

[brighid]

Then ask her how she feels and ask for her complete honesty. You might not get the answers you want (or you might.) Are you afraid to ask her how she feels and where can the two of you go from here?

Brighid

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by beth
Brett, I have to interject on this notion. It is highly unlikely for a woman in the South to teach her children racism against blacks if she is, herself, married to a black man and has children of a mixed race by him.

Perhaps we should continue this discussion under moral foundations and principles. Is it moral and respectable for this woman to break up with SI, hurt him the way she has, to break his trust and abandon her friendship and associated committments to him, all over a fairy tale? Is this any more moral than a white woman refusing to marry a black man in the times of severe Southern racism? Is it moral and respectable for a woman to teach her child that only bad people don't believe in God and that bad people will be punished in hell forever? Would it be moral and respectable for a white woman to teach her children racism while married to a black husband? Even if he knew she was a racist going into the relationship?

I understand your situation, being the one in a long term marriage to deconvert. Now that you've deconverted though, is it really moral and respectable for your husband to continue in christianity without any re-consideration for the situation he currently finds himself in? It may not be fair for you to insist upon it, but is it moral and respectable for him to continue without any consideration for you? My little girl 5 years old thinks I'm "bad bad bad." My wife taught her that. Is that moral and respectable? It find this completely repulsive. It would be repulsive to me even if I was the one to change our relationship and deconvert.

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by brighid
Then ask her how she feels and ask for her complete honesty. You might not get the answers you want (or you might.) Are you afraid to ask her how she feels and where can the two of you go from here?

Brighid

I'm not afraid. I have asked her. She hasn't been able to communicate it to me though. Can you give me a line of questioning that could be conducive for discussing the issues?

[BadBadBad]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I recognize she may have moved on. I still don't know what I'm to talk about when she calls, though. Do I respond to the questions she asks, or do I assert the issues going on?

I've seen this before SI. I'd tell her that she's chosen to end your friendship, and that you're unwilling to continue on as "just friends" especially right now. If she really cared about you and how you felt and wanted to be a part of your life, she wouldn't have broken up with you. Having her call and seeing her at Mom's church is just going to keep you down in the dumps and make it take longer to get over her.

[HelenM]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I'm not afraid. I have asked her. She hasn't been able to communicate it to me though. Can you give me a line of questioning that could be conducive for discussing the issues?

But - what is unclear about her breaking up with you because you don't share her beliefs?

I don't know what you want to hear from her that she hasn't said. Do you want her to re-iterate why she broke up with you?

When you talk to family members of hers