addicted to pain

[auto-da-fe]

I am 27. I have three kids, a good job, a nice home, and a pleasent future. Maybe not riches and fame, but good enough for me. By all rights, I should be very happy and content. My wife and I rarely fight, my kids are fairly well adjusted. They go to a private pre-school that is fantastic and highly regarded locally. They are polite, and don't cause a scene in public (very often ;) )

However, this wasn't always the way things were. There was a time in my life where a new trauma was just around the corner. My brother marrying my ex-fiance, my mom being diagnosed with bi-polar disorder, my personal trials and tribulations. For about the first twenty three years of my life, it was one long "Jerry Springer" show. Until I finally got sick of it, and cut out of my life all the people that were causing these events. Until it was just my wife, portions of her family, and one of my friends. Then we started over (my wife was in on the idea the whole time).

Almost 4 years have gone by since I have seen my mom, my brothers, some of my old friends, and various other people. These have been the most productive 4 years of my life. I have advanced my career in leaps and bounds, and I have advanced my family just as much (got three kids now, versus one 4 years ago).

However, about a year ago, I started to notice a distinct lack of... something, in my life. It was large enough to keep me from being truly happy, but small enough for me not to be able to put my finger on it. There was just something that wasn't clicking right. I even explored religion in an attempt to find out what it was (turns out that wasn't it, which I was very thankful for).

Then about 6 weeks ago, I was talking about this to a friend of mine (the one mentioned above, arguably the person that knows me best, next to my wife, in the entire world). His opinion was that I need the drama in my life to keep me happy. I function best in a defensive posture, and I am better at dealing with the dramatic events after they happen, than I am at preventing them from happening. Part of my happiness comes from the knowledge that regardless of what happens, I can deal with it (this has been proven true time and again by some of the things in my life).

When my life got "normal" and all the excitement went away, it was refreshing to be able to focus on something else (like my family, my career) for a change. But now that may be becoming stale. I need some excitement, or I will start creating some for myself. This isn't a good idea, as I have displayed in the past an astonishing lack of judgement when it comes to right and wrong.

Anyway, I dwell on this quite a lot lately, and thought this would be a good forum to bring this up in. Morally speaking, I want to continue my life on the straight and narrow, for the sake of my wife and kids. Emotionally speaking, from a first person perspective, I crave the drama caused by some individuals in my past. While I certainly can continue to function under the status quo, it doesn't seem appealing to me in the slightest, and unhappiness is unhappiness, wether it is caused by boredom, or by morons who intrude in your life.

[Gothic_J]

take up s&m.

alternately, debate fundies on a regular basis.

trying both makes you really enjoy life. -amused-

[jfryejr]

You might try posting this in the secular community forum. It's not really a debate/argument. This seems along the lines of some of the posts I've seen there.

[fatherphil]

given your life history, perhaps a little therapy may be appropriate.

not all our feelings are valid or deserve feeding into. sometimes by identifying the source of the feeling we are able to make the conscious decision to let it pass and move on.

drama for drama's sake is, in my estimation, not moral.

[The Other Michael]

It sounds to me more that you are an adrenaline junkie, rather than a masochist - you are looking for lots of action/running around madly. If it is pain you wanted, you might just stay in your current situation which sounds like it is getting uncomfortable for you. You could try joining some club or group, and foment a coup in the management of it - that should get you involved in plenty of angst, and not necessarily involve your family.

Are you interested in discussing the ethics of your adding more stress/excitement into your life, possibly to the detriment of the lives of your family? Or are you looking for more of a support discussion? If the latter, and since it doesn't appear that religion is a big factor in your situation, we can move you over to the Lounge which is where the non-religious support threads are going these days.

Let us know,

Michael

[auto-da-fe]

It sounds to me more that you are an adrenaline junkie, rather than a masochist - you are looking for lots of action/running around madly.

I have had a little therapy in the past, to which the good doctor told me I had a severe problem with impulse control (I was about 13 at the time). During a discussion about this, he told me his opinions was about the same as yours. That was the first time, but not the last that I have been accused of this. I would say that it is at least mostly true. I have a distinct lack of fear, that sometimes drives me to do very odd things.

You could try joining some club or group, and foment a coup in the management of it - that should get you involved in plenty of angst, and not necessarily involve your family.

This is a very cool idea, btw. I told my wife and she got a great laugh about it.

Are you interested in discussing the ethics of your adding more stress/excitement into your life, possibly to the detriment of the lives of your family?

This is my main concern, with a secondary concern with advise (support) that may help the situation. Understand though, that my ultimate goal is to figure out how to deal with it. I am not going to do anything that would jeapordize my family in any way, but I do need an outlet for this built up energy. Unfortunatly, hobbies aren't something I really have time for. I would say my biggest hobby of late has been posting on this board.

Most of me feels this is morally wrong, or at minimum amoral. Of corurse, I have plenty of defense mechanisms to deal with any feelings of guilt I may have over this situation, but I am able to realize that I sort of knew I would be giving up a lot to become a father and a husband.

Let me give you an example of something that really makes me feel like I need to go base jumping from a 20 floor building. I had a fairly nice car once upon a time. It was fast, looked good, blah, blah, blah. Now, however, you are more likely to see me driving my wifes minivan (so I can haul the kids around, my wife drives my car to work). This occasionally makes me feel like I am waiting for just the right moment to have my midlife crisis. My wife already jokes about it.

Sometimes I just feel quite a bit older than I am, and more domesticated than I ever thought was possible for me.

[keyser_soze]

Weigh it...Is it better for your family and your future to stay moderately happy, or is it better for your family to get a little drama going on and thus drop productivity, involving your spouse and children in an admittedly sadistic and counter-productive lifestyle? Yeah, that's what I thought. Get over your selfish need, and if you are not 100% happy, go beat your head against the refrigerator a few times until you are. Don't ruin your life because you need a little drama. Fuck the drama, just work for your family.

[auto-da-fe]

Weigh it...Is it better for your family and your future to stay moderately happy, or is it better for your family to get a little drama going on and thus drop productivity, involving your spouse and children in an admittedly sadistic and counter-productive lifestyle? Yeah, that's what I thought. Get over your selfish need, and if you are not 100% happy, go beat your head against the refrigerator a few times until you are. Don't ruin your life because you need a little drama. Fuck the drama, just work for your family.

Yes, but don't you think that some moderation is called for? I mean, not to be cliche, but you know about all work and no play right? Admittedly what I am talking about is a far cry from "play", but you don't think there is anything wrong with going through life apathetic about it all? Of course I take care of my responsibilities, but don't I have an obligation to myself to try to find some modicum of happiness when it comes to excitement? I am not talking about carjacking someone, or having an affair, can't I find something slightly more tame?

The problem isn't that I am unhappy with my family life in general. On the contrary, I find the stability quite appealing most times. The problem arises when I feel overwhelmed with responsibility. My wife works at night (I work during the day, costs too much for daycare for 3 kids for us to both work during the day), so at night I could largely be compare to a single father. My wife leaves usually w/in about 30 minutes of me getting home in the afternoon, and I am usually asleep when she comes in a night. After a time, this can be a little overwhelming, and stressful. Keeping a cool hand with the kids becomes more of a challenge, and to top it off, I don't get to see my wife very often, which bothers me quite a bit.

So, I have to do the same thing that millions of other people have to do every day. This is the source of my guilt about this. I understand that this is basically of my choosing, and that everyone in my situation probably feels just about the same. However, as I am sure we can all attest to, just because something makes you feel guilty, doesn't mean you don't still crave it. In fact, sometimes, because something makes you feel guilty is the reason you crave it.

[The Other Michael]

MegaDave,

If it looks like the support aspects of the discussion are taking the lead (which will depend largely, I think, on what kind of responses you are getting) I'll shift this over to the Lounge.

I was reasonably serious about the club coup idea. Many clubs seem to have a petty dictator problem (though much of that seems to come from the indolence of the majority of the club members) and could benefit from a change. Of course, there are ethical aspects of joining a club just to foment change in it for your own purposes, but I could see that being OK if you actually brought about changes that were perceived as improvements by the majority of the club members. Going in just to disrupt wouldn't be right, but some disruption in the course of bettering things should be an acceptable trade off.

cheers,
Michael

[Bad Kitty]

I suggest that you get involved with Politics -- there is a tremendous amount of drama surrounding all things political. Get behind an issue that brings out true passionate feelings. There are no lack of issues out there waiting for passionate people to take up the torch.

I don't think there is anything wrong with needing more than you have, but you can choose what that more is and feel good about channeling energy into it.

Best,

Michelle

[brighid]

MegaDave,

I can empathize with you quite a bit. I was raised in a way that taught me that creating drama in my life got me attention. It also tested the limits of my abilities and somehow, in an almost twisted way, I enjoyed overcoming those obstacles. Unfortunately, I set up some potentially devastating drama scenarios is my younger life and it led to a lot of unnecessary pain for myself and others.

I did very much the same thing you did. I got sick and tired of the drama because frankly it was emotional and physically draining and after a while I couldn't take it anymore. I chose to make positive changes in my life and I also cut out some friends and family who were negative influences in my life.

I then met my husband, an absolutely wonderful man. My son and I gained a wonderful life partner. Life has been less then dramatic, but peaceful, content and without any traumatic drama. I like it that way, but at times I feel the same urge to set up an obstacle for myself. I have learned to resist that, examine why I am trying to sabotage myself only to rescue myself, and turn that energy to something more positive but equally challenging. It's simply a destructive habit I cultivated in childhood and bad habits are hard to break.

I thrive best under pressure and dead lines. I am the type of person that gets much more done the more I have to do. Although I could get the same amount of work done when I don't have a strict deadline, I just don't because I am not terribly self-motivated unless I have a detailed plan in mind.

Now, how have I overcome this? Well, I can't say I have completely overcome it and I still battle some bad habit type urges, but I have found things to fill up that space in my being that needs to be challenged, pushed, achieve goals and have some excitement. I am not the type that would go bungey jumping, as I have gotten past wanting to do dangerous things for the thrill but I still need that rush. My family grounds me and this is a good thing.

I have identified things that I am passionate about and put my energies there. I am passionate about fitness and I am passionate about social issues regarding the treatment of women and children. (There are other things, but I can fit these things into my life best.)

I didn't think I could teach again because I felt I was too old and too out of shape. I auditioned, got the job and managed to whip myself into decent shape. I now teach Kickboxing and it is quite challenging mentally and physically. I enjoy the adrenaline rush a tough workout gives me and I enjoy the challenge of creating new, and difficult choreography. I especially enjoy the human interaction and respect a well taught class has brought me. I get what I need without harming myself or my family.

I have also begun to volunteer with a charitable organization that works with single mothers, fathers and young families to support them through the difficulties of being a young parent. Soon I should be assigned my very own young families group to facilitate. It has been a very rewarding experience thus far and I am looking forward to the future challenges.

My mother asks me how I have all the time and energy to be a wife, mother, full-time employee, kickboxing instructor AND a Parent Group Facilitator (not to mention a moderator and participant at iidb) and I simply say I just do. I am happier when I am busy, not insanely busy just busy enough I don't have time to waste doing stupid shit.

I don't know if that is too mundane for your tastes, but in my experience I found it was really important to evaluate why I did negative things for attention and how could I stop sabotaging my life with bad choices. The choices I make now still provide me with the attention and challenges I need, but I am alot happier and I am no longer living a damned soap opera. I really, really like it that way. All I need to do to remind me of how much better my life is now is to spend sometime with certain family members, talk to old friends or watch Jerry Springer. Thank you, but no thanks.

Brighid

[fatherphil]

how about getting into the hardcore music scene. i see many young men apparently release some of their aggressive energy in the pit. and the greatest danger may be a broken finger or nose. your kids are still pretty young? just wait till their teenage years, you'll have all the drama you can want then ;)

[Ted Hoffman]

Brighid,

You are a lot like me :) .

I can tell Megadave to find something he likes. Before then (sometimes it takes a while), he should engage himself in sports (try jogging) and try to achieve perfection at something he likes.

My latest interest is Interior Design and I have decided to transform my house. Starting with the sitting room.

[brighid]

My latest interest is Interior Design and I have decided to transform my house. Starting with the sitting room.

Now that is asking for some pain!! :D

You are a lot like me

Ah, raised in a dysfunctional family where the only time anyone ever paid attention to you was when you were being bad?? ;) Well, that is my story at least.

Brighid

[Godless Dave]

MegaDave, I have a couple suggestions:

Therapy. Try to keep in mind that a diagnosis is not an accusation. If a therapist says you have poor impulse control, he or she means that you have a problem that you can work on with the therapist's help, not that you are doing something "wrong" that you should stop doing this instant. If you don't hit it off with a therapist, get a new one. I get therapy through a clinic with several therapists on staff, and I found it easy to try different therapists.

Exercise. Exercise really blows off a lot of steam and reduces tension. It's not a panacea, but it can really help (says the guy who weighs 270 lbs.). It also sets a good example for your kids.

IMHO, you crave drama because that's what you grew up with. It feels right to you because it's what you're used to, even if intellectually you know it's not good for you. Kind of like how I am attracted to women who nag and criticize me, because that's what I grew up with.

[auto-da-fe]

First, it is rather comforting to know that other people out there experience some of these same things. It's easy to feel isolated and nearly insane sometimes, and to know others deal with it as well is oddly comforting.

I have tried to push my energy into other areas, for a while I played racquetball quite frequently, and actually got fairly good at it. Then my racquetball partner (who was a very close friend of mine for about 12 years), slept with my sister about 3 days before his wedding, to which I was the best man, and was not aware of what had happened. So, racquetball has sort of gone by the way side.

For many years, guitars were my passion. I have a knack for it, and even have the long skinny fingers some covet. Then, right after my first daughter was born, I, like many other before me, had to sell my guitar for rent money. Have always said "I'll buy another one someday", but alas, that hasn't happened yet.

To be frank, my usual passion involves playing my PS2 after the kids go to bed. I have a nice and large collection of games, and consider myself an avid gamer. I find this is a great way to wile away the time.

To define in a word what I want, it would be passion. Some sort of passion in life. Raising my kids is great, and so is being a husband. After a while though, the routine becomes monotonous, and frustrating. Something to spice it up is required, but there are moral, and logical implications that are hard to deal with. Perhaps not the drama of a Jerry Springer sponsored life, perhaps just the passion of ones convictions.

[auto-da-fe]

Still though, I sometimes lament not getting some of those pyscotic telephone calls from my mother (in a mysoginistic way). I function quite well under those circumstances, allowing me to vent certain feelings I am otherwise forced to keep under control.

Wow, some of the farked up shiate I have had to deal with. Anyone who has ever lived with a bi-polar can attest to what I am talking about. Hate and pyschosis hang around them in little clouds, every once in a while converging to form a halestorm of discontent. There pyschosis pounds on you like the wind beating the surf in a hurricane. Then, like the sudden clearing in the eye of a storm, they act normal for a time. You know, though, it is only matter of time before the eye passes by and you are plunged into the darkness again.

It seems ludicrious to me that I would ever want to venture into that crap again. Espicially because I know that it is like a black hole. It sucks you in and for all that you try, you cannot escape. Once it starts, you have no control over it any longer. Wrenching control of my life was the hardest thing I have ever had to do. It took quite a toll on me, and the feelings of failure took a long time to go away.

Yet, I continue to feel the need of it again. Almost like, now that I am a stonger person, I want to go wage battle again with my newfound confidence and power. To be vindicated in the most epic battle of my life.

Flights of fancy, I'm afraid.

[fatherphil]

we are such adaptable creatures that we make the most horrid situations seem normal given enough time. i imagine the jews freed from concentration camps may have felt an empty feeling without having to face the struggle for survival they had gone through the previous decade.

get passionate about raising the kids. perhaps writing fiction based on your life experience may be helpful and a constructive release.

[brighid]

MegaDave,

Is it passion in your marriage you are looking for, life in general, or some combination of both?

There are plenty of suggestions I could make about spicing things up for your marriage that aren't immoral and I am sure other can as well.

As to life in general ... you have to make time, not excuses for those things even if it is only one day a month you spend engaging in those activities.

I also understand when you say that sometimes you want to wage a battle against those individuals, and at the same time think you must be insane for doing so. I am pretty sure my sister (and my father was diagnosed) is bi-polar. She can be sweet as pie one minute and then the next she is that raging malestrom of hostility and insanity you mentioned, and it is so damned draining.

As much as I love her, and as much as I sometimes extract some sadistic pleasure from intellectually trumping her nonesense, I have come to realize that my time and energy are too valuable to waste on hopelessly painful endeavors. Maybe you need to find some place you can have earnest, passionate debates against opponents who hold misinformed or idiotic view points?

IMO you probably need to figure out WHY you continue to have this need for what you know is terribly bad for you. In the past I have felt I needed to have the opportunity to vindicate myself, but with unhealthy individuals the satisfaction you seek will never come. They must get healthy before this can happen. My father has undergone a lot of therapy, medication (I think), as well as overcome his alcoholism and only then were we able to re-establish a relationship that is now (after years of rebuilding trust) a good, workable relationship.

I think you are experiencing what so many people go through. Some of us are simply not fully content with a mundane, normal existence. We need more and passion is necessary for our well-being.

Brighid

[meritocrat]

So you have a wife and family that loves you and you complain?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p

[auto-da-fe]

So you have a wife and family that loves you and you complain??

I am painfully aware of the egocentrisim (correct word?) tied to this. That is a big part of my source of guilt. It isn't very hard for me to look around and see plenty of people who have it far worse than I. Does that mean I don't deserve to strive for more happiness in my life though?

[meritocrat]

Originally posted by brighid



Ah, raised in a dysfunctional family where the only time anyone ever paid attention to you was when you were being bad?? ;) Well, that is my story at least.

Brighid

Ah the pains of childhood, huh? :rolleyes:

[Godless Dave]

Originally posted by meritocrat
So you have a wife and family that loves you and you complain??

I think the crux of MegaDave's problem is he feels he should be contented, yet he isn't. Depression sucks like that - everything's going great, but you still feel lousy. And I don't think he was complaining.

[Godless Dave]

Originally posted by meritocrat
Ah the pains of childhood, huh? :rolleyes:

You're right, Meritocrat. People who were abused as children should just shut up and get over it. </sarcasm>

[brighid]

Ah the pains of childhood, huh?

Yes, some of my childhood was less then ideal, some of it was pretty bad but most of it was pretty normal. Seems I turned out alright despite a few bumps in the road.

Awhhh ... thanks for caring in your special meritocrat kind of way. It warms the heart.

Brighid

[auto-da-fe]

Is it passion in your marriage you are looking for, life in general, or some combination of both?

There are plenty of suggestions I could make about spicing things up for your marriage that aren't immoral and I am sure other can as well.

This is a rather large source of the problem. It is rather hard to keep things exciting and romantic when we work different hours, and have 3 kids. We both try sometimes, but...

One of the problems is that we do not have anyone that will watch our kids for us. Sure we may be able to find someone to watch them for a couple of hours, but, none of the kids have ever spent a night away from me, and the only time they have spent nights away from my wife was when she was in the hospital giving birth to one of their siblings. Part of getting rid of all the troublesome people in our lives, was living with the fact that we had to do everything on our own. While this helped us to become closer, it also made us grow up a little faster than either she or I really wanted to.

Excitement in my life in general is something I need as well though. Realistically however, this isn't really possible. I work full time, so does my wife, different hours. I study most nights (MBA). On the weekends, my wife and I are both tired, and mostly just want to spend some time with each other.

This is something that affects most people, I think, at one time or another, as they age. It is just that, like with anything else, it will affect one person different than another, and I think that it is affecting me a little worse than some.

[brighid]

One of the problems is that we do not have anyone that will watch our kids for us. Sure we may be able to find someone to watch them for a couple of hours, but, none of the kids have ever spent a night away from me, and the only time they have spent nights away from my wife was when she was in the hospital giving birth to one of their siblings. Part of getting rid of all the troublesome people in our lives, was living with the fact that we had to do everything on our own. While this helped us to become closer, it also made us grow up a little faster than either she or I really wanted to.

It is times like this that I realize how very lucky we are. Through extended family and friends it is rare we don't have a babysitter for our son (but it is also easier with one then three.)

It's definately a more difficult situation when you can't get away from the children for a night or two.

Do any of your small circle of friends have children? Would any of them be able to provide a reference to a good babysitter? You would probably have to start off with just a dinner out to get the children use to a new person, and then incrementally increase the time out by an hour or so eventually building up to a full night out without the children.

It seems to me that it would be worth the time and money investment to try and find a responsible sitter so you and your wife can work on the necessary marital passion. The March 03 addition of Working Mother had an interesting article similar to your dilemma.

I know what it's like to be so busy with work, etc. and be tired when you come home and simply want to stay home and be with your family. However, you and your wife need time to simply be husband and wife - not just mom, dad, employee, student, etc. Making a committment to a "date night" (once a week, once every two weeks, once a month) could potentially do wonders for your lack of passion.

It would certainly be easier to implement some of the suggestions I could provide you :D

Brighid

[brighid]

Now, to address the morality of your situation:

I think it's perfectly normal to feel as you do and it is moral to pursue the implications of why you feel as you do and how you should handle it.

Things only become immoral if you take action that will harm you, your marriage and/or your family. It doesn't seem to me that you are that kind of guy. If you were I doubt you would feel guilt over feeling this need for passion (even dangerous passion) in your life.

As has been recommended, there are plenty of ways for you to get that needed excitement, adrenaline rush, etc. without putting yourself or your family into a bad situation.

Brighid

[joedad]

MegaDave:
The problem arises when I feel overwhelmed with responsibility. My wife works at night (I work during the day, costs too much for daycare for 3 kids for us to both work during the day), so at night I could largely be compare to a single father. My wife leaves usually w/in about 30 minutes of me getting home in the afternoon, and I am usually asleep when she comes in a night. After a time, this can be a little overwhelming, and stressful. Keeping a cool hand with the kids becomes more of a challenge, and to top it off, I don't get to see my wife very often, which bothers me quite a bit.

meritocrat
So you have a wife and family that loves you and you complain??

MegaDave:
I am painfully aware of the egocentrisim (correct word?) tied to this. That is a big part of my source of guilt. It isn't very hard for me to look around and see plenty of people who have it far worse than I. Does that mean I don't deserve to strive for more happiness in my life though?Strive away, I say. To thine own addiction be true.

Your situation, especially with the kids and both of you holding jobs is tough. We decided one income was going to have to suffice until the kids were school age. Life became immensely simpler. Don't know if you can swing that financially though.

Beyond that, I'd humbly advise you to stop trying to live your whole life everyday. Make plans in several year increments. And take time to play. Don't fall into the trap of thinking life is work work work followed by the play and satisfaction of retirement. If you do that you're going to look back on a life badly lived imho. Maybe others are set on retiring comfortably but maybe you're not. I personally don't plan to retire. I want to drop dead doing something I enjoy so I hope I can work till I'm at least ninety.

I get good vibes from others advising you to find an outlet for your passions. Some people get this by being season ticket holders with the local NFL Franchise, and others get it by physically preparing to strap on a backpack and engage in some immensely satisfying masochism, John Muirish like. You've got to find yours, and still take the time to smell the roses.

The rewards of moderately strenuous physical exercise cannot be overstated, whatever form it takes and for whatever purpose. Diet and exercise, and cutting back on stimulants like caffeine can change your whole demeanor.

But as previously stated, I think you have to live your life in blocks. As your kids age they are going to take on lives of their own as well. You'll soon stop seeing them as children and extensions of yourself. This will change your life dramatically I predict, making more demands on the free time you presently enjoy. In short, have a little more faith and take time to plan, execute and reflect on what you think will fill some of the void.