Pisses me off

[Secular Elation]

It pisses me off that there are millions upon millions of people in this world who believe in something that is false.

It pisses me off that there are millions upon millions of people who have formed their lives around religion, and although it seems to have fulfilled their own lives from their point of view, the truth is that it is a life lived in fairy tales.

It pisses me off that my own family is a victim of this largest of all plagues. Fortunately my parents aren't very religious, although they do claim they believe in the Christian god. But the rest of my family--including my sisters, my brother-in-laws, my nephew, and other relatives--are all swept up in religion. I can't visit them without them mentioning something about the glory of their religious beliefs. I can't visit them for more than 10 minutes before they mention "God."

It pisses me off that I am so isolated in a family and community overrun by religious insanity. Whenever religion comes up, I ignore it, change the subject, or just nod my head to appease them. They don't know the truth. They don't know that I disbelieve every drop of it. But I know what reaction would occur if I revealed my total absence of any religious belief. Religion is such a central component of their lives, that revealing it would hit them like an asteroid. They would approach me so differently. They would try to talk me out of it. Then I would respond with the reasons I don't believe any of it. Then I risk inflicting mortal wounds on their beliefs, when I describe all the reasons I don't believe it. Oh, indeed, it would be a good thing if my family deconverted. But, to them, it would be like losing a family member. They have built their lives around religion so intensely that it would emotionally shatter them. I don't want to hurt them that way. Ultimately it would be a good thing, yes, but initially it would be extremely painful, both for them and me. But that's probably not even an issue...they way they are, nothing I could say could penetrate their minds--minds that are coated with religious adamantium.

It pisses me off, I tell you.

Sorry about that. I had to rant.

[reprise]

Have you considered moving to Australia? You have to go looking for the devout over here.

[Novowels]

I second everything SecEla said, PLUS I FUCKING HATE AUSTRALIAN BRAGGARTS.

Mostly I just wanted to use the word "braggart" though.

[Barcode]

Agreed. I seem to be in a constant state of shock at the sheer stupidity of some people who wouldn't know what personality to have, how to talk to others, what friends to have, or what colour underwear to put on in the morning without first praying to the deity of their choice.

My girlfriend, who is intelligent and applies critical thought in all other areas seems to have this huge brick wall when it comes to religious beliefs. Some things " just are ", or " not meant to be understood ", and because she is told some things by the war-mongering-losing-his-cognitive-faculties Holy Pope she takes them to be the truth.

The latest example of this was telling me Mary really did ascend into heaven on August the 15th, because the Pope says so, and it's not up to her to go asking questions!

It's maddening and frustrating, because *you* can't do anything, and neither is it right to in the end I think ... people must learn and read for themselves. It just means the rest of us become highly annoyed in the process and feel like the only sane person in the lunatic asylum.

[wandererfromtx]

Originally posted by Secular Elation

It pisses me off that I am so isolated in a family and community overrun by religious insanity.

Not to belittle your situation, but living here in the bible belt (Texas) I am surrounded by fundys everywhere I go, so I feel your pain.

[stilus]

I was wondering: how bad is it in the US? I mean, I can understand you get annoyed by believers and it becomes worse when your family seems to have donated their brain to the church ante-mortem, but what should I imagine is the "everyday" situation "in the streets"? In what ways does it penetrate everyday live? Is (Christian) religion as all-pervasive in the USA as it sometimes seems on my tv? Or is it for the most part just a "Follow your Leaders" lipservice that people don't really feel? I understand there are differences between states, towns etc, (I feel for you wandererfromtx :D ) but I am very curious about the american Religious way.

To Secular Elation, I wish I knew what to say to make it easier. You seem pretty fed up with the Christian way of live, something I can very much relate to. Yet I find that it helps me to know that even though non-believers apparently lack the need to seek leaders, form massive groups and go down on their knees together, we are with a hell of a lot more than you might think. I decided to stop fussing about the complete stupidity of the sheep, and to start looking at those humans who are doing things their own way. It helps me to know I'm not alone.

[Division By Zero]

Originally posted by stilus
I was wondering: how bad is it in the US? I mean, I can understand you get annoyed by believers and it becomes worse when your family seems to have donated their brain to the church ante-mortem, but what should I imagine is the "everyday" situation "in the streets"?
I live in North Carolina, in the southeastern United States. Things I see on a regular basis:

1) Jesus fish on people's cars. The TRUTH fish (TRUTH swallowing DARWIN) is also increasingly popular.
2) A hellfire preacher who's taken up residence in the courtyard at my college.
3) Christian paraphernalia decorating many people's homes and offices. You know, a crucified Jesus in the baby's room, or some such.
4) Many people wearing religious t-shirts and crucifix necklaces.
5) People structuring all their free time around the church and Bible Study groups.
6) The extremely rampant epidemic of creationism. Most people I know are creationists.
7) Churches all over the place.
8) No secular / freethought organization at my college, but plenty of religious ones. (I know religious organizations outnumber secular ones in the first place, but still.)
9) The Christian persecution complex, which makes people moan and wail about how their rights are being violated by the absence of mandatory school prayer.

In what ways does it penetrate everyday live? Is (Christian) religion as all-pervasive in the USA as it sometimes seems on my tv? Or is it for the most part just a "Follow your Leaders" lipservice that people don't really feel?
Lip service? A few people do that (mostly non-Christians who are trying to keep the peace in their family, I would guess), but as far as I can tell, the people around here are obsessed with their religion.

[Autonemesis]

Originally posted by Secular Elation
Oh, indeed, it would be a good thing if my family deconverted. But, to them, it would be like losing a family member. They have built their lives around religion so intensely that it would emotionally shatter them. I don't want to hurt them that way.

"I know exactly how you feel."
- Morpheus

[Dreaming Skin]

I live in South Carolina, which isn't much different from North. I'm annoyed on a daily basis with folks wearing "I Love Jesus" shirts(saw a young Latino woman recently wearing one, had to chuckle), JESUS tags on their cars and those damned fish. The video departments of local stores(Wal-Mart for example) are littered with Veggie Tales, Bible Tales, some other Christian dinosaur mess and other child-aimed propaganda.

The youth here are especially brainwashed. Back in February, a local church had some teenagers throw a CD-burning party. In a letter to the local paper criticizing the event, I asked if were not better to get money for the CD's at a used dealer and give the proceeds to charity. Not so surprisingly, they answered that they preferred to burn them instead of having the "devil music" fall into anyone else's hands. Typical.

[wandererfromtx]

Originally posted by Dreaming Skin
JESUS tags on their cars and those damned fish. The video departments of local stores(Wal-Mart for example) are littered with Veggie Tales, Bible Tales, some other Christian dinosaur mess and other child-aimed propaganda.

I understand :banghead:

In the Dallas, Fort Worth area, we have the pleasure of suffering with some of the biggest names in Tele-Evangelism

Kenneth Copeland, Believers Voice of Victory
TD Jakes, The Potters House
Benny Hinn, Benny Hinn Ministries
Paul and Jan Crouch, Trinity Broadcast Network (TBN) (Though broadcasting from California, the Crouch’s own a huge house and ranch in the area)

[Voltaire's girl]

A while back, I had this date with a Christian guy. Well, in spite of that, he's fun to be around and I genuinly like him. Anyway, we went to see Chicago at Safari 7, a cheep theatre where it was still playing. I think some of the better scenes in the movie loosened him up a little because later that night, we went for a walk in the park and ended up making out. I tell you, he got pretty exited. He was running his (thankfully short) fingernails up and down my back, breathing pretty hard and it wasn't long before somthing was um... poking me. He was a good kisser too!
It really didn't get behond the kissing, but I think he scared himself a little. (Did I mention he's training to be a minister?) For our second date, he came over for dinner and until desert would be ready, I suggested taking a walk in the park. We talked for about an hour in a half. I made a few advances and he just pretended not to notice. Finnally, he said he owed me an apology. I should have said, "I'll say! We've been here for over an hour, and you haven't kissed me yet." Instead I waited. He basically said that he shouldn't have asked me out since he's going back to school in a few days and he just had a big fight with this long-term girlfriend he was sort of semi-engaged to. Suddenly, as far as she was concerned, he didn't exist anymore. But the situation was kind of up-in-the air. I hugged him and told him I understood, which I did. Of course I should have added, "I really wasn't looking to get serious anyway. I just wanted to make out in the park."
Darn Christians and their scrupples! Still, it's rather satisfying that I was able to get him to forget them for a while...

[bradw]

How bad is it in the USA?

First, let me define bad. Bad isn't when other people have viewpoints different from my own. Or express that viewpoint by adorning their cars with symbols, or wearing t-shirts with slogans, or attending meetings, or producing TV shows.

It's when people try to force me to either agree with them, suport them, or instead, keep my mouth shut.

If I watch the news I get really irritated with the President and the Attorney General and some other politicians. God this and that. The world's on fire and they gotta worship Jesus. And all with my tax dollars. And instead of doing anything constructive.

But I live in the middle of a very conservative part of the US (St. Louis Missouri) and there are a lot of bible-thumpers and Catholics around here.

And you know what, it's rare that anything "bad" concerning religion comes up as I go about my life. My co-workers, mostly Catholic, rarely bring anything up other than to mention they are attending some holy day event. That's not bad. I don't see (or look for) Jesus stickers, fish, t-shirts. No one expects me to agree with them about anything when it comes to religion. And we have Kurt Warner and Mega-churches around here. Even when I visit my redneck hometown in southern Illinois I don't see anything going on.

Mostly the Christian (and Jewish and other) folks go about their lives, sometimes even trying to do something helpful.

Now of course I don't live next to Pat Robertson or Jerry Fallwell, and if I did I'd be singing a different tune, but as for my day-to-day existence, I'm fine. If you are bothered by the presence of people who may not agree with you, then of course you'd be upset.

So in summary, on a national level I'm ticked, on a local level people are mostly fine or at least non-intrusive.

[Perihelion]

9) The Christian persecution complex, which makes people moan and wail about how their rights are being violated by the absence of mandatory school prayer.

I'd just like to comment on this one because it is my personal pet peeve. I've noticed that the majority of Christians I've met (with notable exceptions) love to behave as if they're being persecuted by powerful authorities/organazitions/conspiracies, as if down in Rome the Christians were still being thrown to the lions. It's as if secular atheist subversives were abducting children daily and attempting to dictate everyone else's lives, when reality is (as usual) the polar opposite.

This is ironic for so many reasons. Christians are the massive majority here in the US, and visibly so. I've never conducted an extensive survey, but it seems to me from personal experience that it's easier to find people here in Texas displaying some sort of Christian icon or slogan than it is to find people displaying nothing at all. This could just be me "counting the hits and forgetting the misses," so to speak, but either way I'm sure it only gets worse when you leave Houston and go to smaller cities. Additionally, there seems to be a selective memory thing going on, such that nobody remembers how the majority of people with power, including law enforcement officers, politicians, political interest groups, and even our current president, are openly Christian (and many times against anything they deem un-Christian, now matter how much they try to sugar coat it).

(Tangent rant alert!) They also seem to ignore the fact that practically every block has a church on it with a sign out front that has a slogan which I'm sure the parishoners find terribly clever. When I was in high school, I had to pass one such church every day at a right turn, only to run into another, larger church precisely two blocks down and directly across from my school. I remember one of the more mild slogans from the church at the corner. It proclaimed "Exposure to the Son may prevent burning." Mercy me, they made a pun, I'm sold. :rolleyes: Other platitudes were less humorous and more insulting, often directly implying that people who do not attend church regularly lead hollow, pointless lives. This sounds suspicially similar to the Pope's public pronouncement from about this time last year. As for the other church, it doesn't have such a sign by it's main entrance. Instead, they've wisely squandered parish money to erect a *gigantic* and gaudy cross in the streetside courtyard which fully illuminates at night. And when I mean gigantic, I do not exaggerate. The cross was as high as the two story church buildings. But I'm sure they built it to ward off people who seek to persecute them. (Tangent rant off)

Another example of what I'm referring to involves a friend of mine from college. Someone made some comment on a message board (I don't know what, specifically) and another user got very offended. My friend commented that "People get so offended entirely too easy over nothing at all" and I agreed with him. Around 30 minutes later, he comes across some study on the internet that unsettles him. I only have a general recollection of what it was about (as I am only going by the quotes from it he gave me), but the study claimed a correlation between men who regularly see women's breasts (in print or otherwise) and men who are happier with their life. I believe regularly was defined along the lines of "one exposure per week" or something similarly harmless.Upon reading this, he became severely incensed,complaining that studies like this signify the general attack against both society's good moorings and against the personal beliefs of Christians. He then implied that studies/ideas like this shouldn't be "glorified" or discussed in the media. Hardly believing my ears, I asked him exactly how he decided that his ideas were suitable for the entire country, and reminded him of his comments regarding people getting offended over nothing at all. To his credit, he calmed down and said that he understands where I am coming from, despite our disagreement.

In summary, as soon as something disagreeable comes up (especially evolution or science teaching in school) the persecution card is played. Sorry about the long winded post; I feel better now.

[veniceboy]

Get out of Bakersfield. I live in SF. Not many religous fanatics here!

[RevDahlia]

Originally posted by veniceboy
Get out of Bakersfield. I live in SF. Not many religous fanatics here!
Same deal across the Bay. I don't think there's a fundie to be found for three miles in any direction. It's a civilized place to live.

I've always lived in really liberal areas, and was raised by a militant atheist and an apathetic agnostic, but I can imagine how awful it must be surrounded by Those People. Gag. How frightening.

[JetBlckNewYr03]

Here is something that pisses me off: Every now and then I see this truck that has a sticker that says "Real Men Love Jesus." It pisses me off so much; I really don't have a clue to why it does. Next time I see it I'm gonna drive my car off the bridge or something.

[Voltaire's girl]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
9) The Christian persecution complex, which makes people moan and wail about how their rights are being violated by the absence of mandatory school prayer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are absolutly right! The thing is the Christians have had it all their own way for so long that when any other group requests a say in things, they start screaming like they are being fed to the lions.
Here's an example:
At my highschool, the Christian students preparing for confirmation had to go to Wednesday services and special leasons. To make sure they wouldn't get behind, all the non theist students or students of different religions had to sit in study hall for an hour of regular school time and not learn anything. I must admit, it was nice for catching up on homework but it was only the Christians who got that privilige. The school did not do the same thing for Muslims or Jews who had to be absent for religious purposes.
Basically, they have gotten spoiled and think that they should have everything their own way:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Jack Kamm]

Get out of Bakersfield. I live in SF. Not many religous fanatics here!

Amen to that!

Although going to a Catholic school does balance that out.:(

However, it's a pretty liberal Catholic school, so it's all good :D
I know maybe one creationist in the entire school (and that guy is real crazy...believes freemasons rule the world)

[The Other Michael]

There's a Kingdom Hall (Jehovah's Witnesses) a block or two down the street from me, and three other churches (that I can think of) within a 3 block radius of my house, and a huge Catholic church a block or two up from that.

Luckily, my doorbell no longer works, so I no longer have to deal with answering solicitors for God.

I work in Richmond, and there seem to be A LOT of very overt Christians in my building. I don't know that they are fundies, but they'll do.

cheers,
Michael

[Division By Zero]

Originally posted by bradw
How bad is it in the USA?

First, let me define bad. Bad isn't when other people have viewpoints different from my own. Or express that viewpoint by adorning their cars with symbols, or wearing t-shirts with slogans, or attending meetings, or producing TV shows.

It's when people try to force me to either agree with them, suport them, or instead, keep my mouth shut.

Oh yeah, sure. I can live with it here. It seriously gets on my nerves that so many people think in the loopy, irrational way they do, but most (not all) of them seem fairly tolerant in their day-to-day lives. (Other people may have other experiences depending on who they happen to know.)

But stilus wanted to know to what extent religion was "felt" by people in the United States, and the answer to that question, at least as far as it concerns the area I live in, is "A pretty large extent."

[reprise]

I've noticed that the US posters responding to this thread seem to be referring mainly to Christianity when they talk about visible religion.

In most Australian cities in which I've lived, the visible religion which you encounter is just as likely to be non-Christian (although to date it's only the Christian religions which door-knock, and even then, only the Mormons, JWs, and SDAs).

[bradw]

I'm irritated by the self-serving attitude that is so common. The "I got mine so to hell with you" attitude. I figure if religion went away I'd just have to put up with other nutcases.

So in the best of all possible worlds, everyone would be decent and rational. A more reasonable expectation might be that we accept that not everyone agrees, so we'll live and let live.

But tolerance is in short supply.

So if you classify religion as just another form of politics, is it any worse here in the US versus other parts of the world like Europe or Australia? I don't know.

Originally posted by Division By Zero
Oh yeah, sure. I can live with it here. It seriously gets on my nerves that so many people think in the loopy, irrational way they do, but most (not all) of them seem fairly tolerant in their day-to-day lives. (Other people may have other experiences depending on who they happen to know.)

But stilus wanted to know to what extent religion was "felt" by people in the United States, and the answer to that question, at least as far as it concerns the area I live in, is "A pretty large extent."

[reprise]

As an outsider, my observation is that Americans are more intense about many things than people of other nations and religion, politics, and morality are just a few of the issues about which Americans are intense.

[veniceboy]

"As an outsider, my observation is that Americans are more intense about many things than people of other nations and religion, politics, and morality are just a few of the issues about which Americans are intense."

Compared to Western Europe, Canada, and Australia, this comment seems correct. In comparison to many other countries-no. It also varies greatly from region to region.

[stilus]

First off, thank you all for responding!

I gather from the posts (mainly) the Christians have a hell of an advertisment-campaign going... And knowing how I react to commercial advertisments just trying to sell me stuff and the proliferation (you gotta love dictionaries :) ) of brands, I can understand not everyone is zen and noble enough to ignore the incessant visual attack. Respect to bradw for being able to put it aside. By the way, that bloody fish managed to cross the ocean. Now I know there are quite a lot more active Christians then I figured in the Netherlands. But luckily the little fish is about as far as most will go.

What got me thinking was bradw's summary that
on a national level I'm ticked, on a local level people are mostly fine or at least non-intrusive.

It made me think about Bush Jr. playing the Christian Card whenever he can, but then it suddenly dawned on me: Would it be possible (I mean in reality, not according to the Constitution) for an American president to be non-Christian? And what about local or regional politicians? Isn't a dominance of religious leaders "intrusive" even on the local level? Doesn't this effect the way schools are managed, law is enforced etc.?

And what is this about creationists? I thought those people were about as rare as those still praying to Zeus an Hera...
Division by Zero said
6) The extremely rampant epidemic of creationism. Most people I know are creationists. Do they have any saying about schoolprograms, I mean the non-religous ones? And when you say "epidemic", do you mean it's spreading?

Sorry, that's a lot of questions in one post, but you guys inflamed my curiousity :D

Thanks,

Avuko

[Millay1313]

I can see how it is very annoying/frustrating to see there are so many people who believe in something that is false in your opinion.
However, you may not be as frustrated and "pissed off" if you look at it in a different way.
Does it really matter what anyone else believes in or does not believe in. I look at religious beliefs & views that are different from mine this way...If what a person believes in gives them a sense of security, happiness and/or comfort who am I or anyone else to take that away from them. If you take someones securities away, then what is left. I don't want to take that from anyone and vice versa.
However, at the same time when someone's beliefs or views are being forced on you to make you feel uncomfortable you should say something. You should just tell them your views on religions and hopefully your talk with them will lead to a learning experience for everyone. Hopefully they will be able to have an open mind.
Good Luck to you.
:D

[Secular Elation]

I look at religious beliefs & views that are different from mine this way...If what a person believes in gives them a sense of security, happiness and/or comfort who am I or anyone else to take that away from them. If you take someones securities away, then what is left. I don't want to take that from anyone and vice versa.

I completely agree. If it seemed that I had implied otherwise, my apologies.

I know that those millions upon millions of people may be happy with their beliefs, that it gives them security and comfort. I would never want to take it away from them deliberately--which is part of the reason I avoid discussing religion with others.

However, what DOES piss me off is that what these people believe in--beliefs that give them happiness and security--are in fact likely fasle. It ticks me off that they acheive their fulfillment off of falsehoods. I only wish they would do the same thing, but without relying on falsehoods. This means that they spend their life wasting so much time for their religion. You could argue that since it brings them happiness, then it is not time wasted. And since they are blissfully ignorant that their religion is false, there is no disruption in their lives. But the fact is, their beliefs are false--which means that their "fulfillment" is completely in vain. THAT is what is so depressing.

[reprise]

I look at religious beliefs & views that are different from mine this way...If what a person believes in gives them a sense of security, happiness and/or comfort who am I or anyone else to take that away from them.

Heaven's Gate

Jonestown

September 11, 2001

[Perihelion]

Would it be possible (I mean in reality, not according to the Constitution) for an American president to be non-Christian? And what about local or regional politicians? Isn't a dominance of religious leaders "intrusive" even on the local level? Doesn't this effect the way schools are managed, law is enforced etc.?

Others may disagree with me, but to be honest I think it's essentially impossible to be elected to the presidency if you are non-Christian. I hope that this changes soon, but I wouldn't count on it anytime in the next few decades. More than enough people were outraged to see a catholic (JFK) elected 40 years ago, and he's still a Christian. The outlook is just as bad when you consider that 20% of the nation identifies themselves as "fundamentalist Christian." It would be difficult to win an election when 20% of the electorate (likely with above average voter turnout) hate you before you even finish announcing your candidacy. This 20% figure does not count less fundamental Christians, who might well (and in my experience, do) feel similarly threatened. An openly non-Christian candidate for the presidency would likely never make it past the primaries.

On a state/local level, the influence of local culture gives non-Christian politicians a greater chance. I'd still say that in the vastly vast majority of state/local politicians are Christian, although there are notable exceptions. For example, more recently the governor of Minnesota was Jesse Ventura, an open and outspoken atheist who publicly criticized religious attempts to encroach on government and other secular institutions. I do remember him taking a ton of heat from Christians for this, although this could have been a result of the media overhyping things. I honestly don't know.

I have read a couple of national polls regarding people's perceptions of science, and all of them come up with about the same number -- only 40% of the US population accepts evolution (or theological evolution). The remaining 60% are some form of creationist, be it young earth, Intelligent Design, or whatever else. These people, unfortunately, appear to constitute the majority in this country. The problem they pose is very serious, and in my opinion much more malicious than other problems seen at the national level because it directly attempts to undermine the quality of education given to children. There have been many attacks by creationists on education in recent years. I'll recount these for you here to give you an idea of what goes on; but beware! 'Tis a long post ahead.

The teaching of evolution in public schools arouses significant ire from both students and parents all over the country. It doesn't happen in every last state, I'll wager, but the number of states in which these problems crop up is not insignificant either -- it's epidemic in the MidWest and particularly in the South/Southeastern US. For starters, evolution really isn't taught at all in public schools. Depending on the school and the region, it may be mentioned for a day or two in a course, and the description given is usually flawed. More time is given to memorizing the names of parts of plants. For a theory which is the grand synthesis of modern biology, it is treated as worse than a negligible side issue. Interestingly enough, the same thing happens with Big Bang cosmology -- in my public education, it was outright never mentioned.

The teachers are also a problem in this case. When I was in middle school, evolution was never mentioned. At a different middle school which my friend attended, it was part of what had to be taught in the life sciences unit. However, during the entire unit on evolution, the teacher kept telling the students that evolution is a lie, she doesn't believe it, and she is only teaching it because the principal is making her. I'm sure that encouraged the kids to study science. Additionally, teachers outside scientific disciplines will encourage students to ignore evolution. In my AP European history course, the teacher loved to give little side discussions about religion. At one point he asked the students how they respond to a situation where their public schooling tells them one thing, and their religion tells them another. He used the example of evolution. Out of a class of fewer than 20 students, a handful of students responded to say that they study the conflicting material only enough to pass the tests, and then discard it later for the "truth" of the Bible. The teacher agreed with this, saying that was a responsible approach. Unfortunately, nobody spoke out against this. I wanted to, but at the time was too cowardly to do so (my mistake).

There are also groups which pressure school boards and textbook review boards into deleting evolution from textbooks and/or adding creationism / Intelligent Design to the science textbooks. They've come alarmingly close in some states. For instance, I remember that about this time last year, there was trouble in Kansas. The creationists were trying to drop evolution from the curriculum, prompting a reaction from the Kansas science teachers (hence the Science Discoveries / Creation Science Discoveries poster sold online) which supported teaching evolution. The creationists succeeded in some manner. I believe they got a label placed on all textbooks saying that evolution was "only a theory producing much controversy in the scientific community." Fortunately, it is my understanding that this victory of theirs has since been overturned. This same issue has appeared elsewhere in the US. I know it has happened in Texas and Tennessee, to name other states. More recently, people have started campaigning to have Intelligent Design placed in science textbooks as "a valid scientific theory competing with evolution."
As far as I know, nothing overly painful has come from this.

Sadly, this problem is not limited to pre-college education. Two other incidents at the college level illustrate this problem. The first comes from a professor of evolutionary biology at the University of Tennessee. She hosted a series of articles on her webpage at the University, lamenting the problems she was having with creationists in her upper level evolutionary biology course. Apparently, large numbers of students (no exact numbers or percentages were given) were enrolling in her course with the sole goal of attacking evolution. She had grown tired of debating them and calling them on their fallacies, only to have them ignore her and change tack. It had gotten to the point where these students were impeding her ability to teach the college course to students interested in studying evolutionary biology.

Another example comes from a more recent problem at Texas Tech. There was a professor of biology there refusing to write letters of recommendation for graduate schools if the prospective student denied evolution. To me, this is a perfectly sensible course of action -- should a physics student who denies quantum mechanics be recommended as a qualified candidate for high level study? I should hope not. Anyways, a number of creationist students got upset, feeling they should be allowed to become biologists or doctors while pretending that evolution is bogus. Along with their families, they contacted the president of the university and demanded action be taken against this professor. The president refused, standing by the right of the professor to refuse to write a letter of recommendation for unqualified students. The creationists persisted, contacting the ACLU to initiate a lawsuit against the university. Thankfully, the ACLU also refused to offer them any help. I have not heard anything about this situation since earlier this year, so it may have died down. I sure hope so.

My anecdotes surely paint the situation in the US in a negative light. To be fair, no scientists or "evilutionists" are being killed on their way to the office. They're not even being harassed. The creationists, while a majority of the population, do not all act as a concerted group to oppose science -- we'd be much worse off if they did. Many of them seem content to just ignore the science. However, the unfortunate truth is that the creationists can be a powerful lobby at the local level, and there certainly is *no* shortage of them. The greatest crime of the whole situation is how they teach their kids to never think about scientific ideas which conflict with the Bible.

I'm hoping that this is just a phase or a joke. A rather nasty joke, at that.

[veniceboy]

Secular, I don't mean this as an insult, although I'm not sure it can be interpreted in any other way- have you considered moving? I have some business in Bakersfield, and I'm sorry, but it is the ugliest town in California I have ever seen. Also it does appear to be full of fundies, as you say. Are you there b/c of work?

[Ender Wiggin]

I agree with previous posters that Northern California is one of the most fundy-free parts of the US (and that Bakersfield is a complete armpit- get out of there!). I see churches everywhere I go, but there seem to be a reasonable ratio of xtian to non-xtian churches/mosques/synagogues/etc. I can't say that I've ever had Mormons or JWs at my door, nor have I been witnessed at by strangers in general. Santa Cruz in particular is ridiculously liberal, and I do mean ridiculous.

However, since I found the IIDB, the more subtle aspects of xtian pervasiveness have become more apparent and much more irritating. I think the people who post here are generally more sensitive to it than, say, non-theists who just don't care. That's how I would describe most people I know.

A friend of mine recently visited Kentucky and called to say, "Holy sh*t! The churches have billboards along the highway here! These people are crazy!"

I already knew...

[Secular Elation]

Secular, I don't mean this as an insult, although I'm not sure it can be interpreted in any other way- have you considered moving? I have some business in Bakersfield, and I'm sorry, but it is the ugliest town in California I have ever seen. Also it does appear to be full of fundies, as you say. Are you there b/c of work?

No, I'm here because I still live at home--I'm still in school. Once I graduate school and get out on my own, I am out of here!

[reprise]

It seems odd that in a nation which prides itself on the separation of Church and State, being a Christian is virtually an unwritten requirement for assuming the office of President.

Are there any people holding high office in the US who are atheists, or at least non-Christians?

At least one of our former Prime Ministers (Bob Hawke) was an agnostic.

[Voltaire's girl]

The late Senator Paul Wellstone for Minnesota was Jewish. That and the fact that he was an uncorrupted member of the senate makes a change.

[Perihelion]

Senator Joe Lieberman, who is one of the current Democratic presidential candidates, is also Jewish.

[Voltaire's girl]

I'm not to enthused about that guy. Talk about an elephant in donkey's clothing.

[stilus]

Thank you for the time you took to enlighten me on the creationist issue Perihelion. If it wasn't so awfully creepy I'd be pissing my pants laughing about it. I think it is perfectly valid to doubt the evolution-theory. That is, if you can come up with something new that is supported by facts, not with some theories about the world that were invented when people still got around on horseback... I am very supprised that the net-effect of the creationist tactic is they got exactly what they wanted: when kids are not taught any scientific theory or methods, when bullshit is not being opposed by truth, we are in for some real problems... What surprises me even more is that despite wanting to "debunk" science, creationists still want the scientific stamp of approval. Now that one I really don't understand...

I'm reminded of a quote by Aristotle I came across recently (always nice to store those in an IRC bot :) ) and that could apply to "ideas" as well as "men"

[ It is not justice or equal treatment that you grant to men/
when you abstain equally from praising men's virtues and/
from condemning men's vices\\
When your impartial attitude declares/\ in effect/
that neither the good nor the evil may expect anything/
from you/\
whom do you betray and whom do you encourage?\\

(If someone could tell me if I got the source right and where he said it, please do!)

I find this creationist "keep them away from science, then they'll believe" trick beyond disturbing. And most of all because it has poluted the public schools.. . Not to glorify the Netherlands, we have enough religious zealots and fundamentalist schools (not to mention a devoted Christian prime-minister that seems to have walked right out of the 50'ies, you should hear him talk...),

http://www.rnw.nl/achtergronden/binnenhof/assets/images/balkenende020718.jpg

but if you'd even try to teach something else than evolutionary theory at a public school, you'd probably get laught at, and possibly fired. With the strife between protestants and catholics still very fresh in mind, I understand no religious aspects are allowed in public eduction, besides some very non-religious "what is religion?" classes.

As to 20% of the USA (always be careful with statistics, but still...) calling themselves "fundamentalist Christian", now that's scary. What do they mean when they say that? How can you openly admit to being a "fundamentalist" and not consider yourself stupid?

Anyway, with the president being either a Christian or... not the president, billboards and two stories high crosses, 60% of your fellow Americans still thinking that God either had a very busy week 6000 years ago or has a masters degree in Ultimate Design, those ichtus-fish flooding the land (now isn't that a very Darwinistic thing to do?) and the scientific antidote even on some public schools not being administered, I think my question about the Christian religion being very pervasive could be answered with a fullblown "AMEN!" (please forgive the pun ;) ) Maybe asking how "bad" it was was kind a leading question, but I must admit I think I'd get the hell out of Bakersfield too.

reprise noted that it is mainly the Christian religion that gets the blood boiling.. Is that because other religions are not so visible in the states, or because they are less annoying or don't hit as close to home (as opposed to the situation Secular Elation desribed?) or for some other reason? And what about one of my pet-hates: what about that New-Age stuff? Or are those Americans inclined to try that too busy denying the very origine of the fossil-fuels they are so happy with? I could see how that would keep them from thinking about passed lives and swimming with dolphins...

[reprise]

It's difficult to imagine public figures discussing their religious beliefs in public in Australia to the same extent which they do in the US. Those who do tend to be the exception, rather than the rule. By contrast, everyone high profile person in the US who has a religious belief seems almost evangelical about discussing it.

An interesting (but possibly inaccurate) list of non-believers (http://www.celebatheists.com/)

[Division By Zero]

Originally posted by stilus
And what is this about creationists? I thought those people were about as rare as those still praying to Zeus an Hera...
Creationism seems to be largely a US phenomenon... but recent surveys indicate that roughly HALF the population believes in creationism.

In the US, creationists aren't just clinically insane lunatics that live in run-down shacks in somebody's back yard. They're everywhere. They look like perfectly rational people, but when it comes to their creationist beliefs you hit a brick wall that keeps all evidence out and creationism in. It's absurd. Our president is probably a creationist, as well.

Thankfully, the percentage of scientists who believe in creationism is much smaller, and almost non-existent among people in life science or other fields that relate to evolution. It's public opinion that's the problem.


Do they have any saying about schoolprograms, I mean the non-religous ones?
Do creationists have any say in non-religious school programs? I'm not sure what you mean here. Creationists everywhere are certainly doing their best to either prevent evolution from being taught or shove creationism in with it, though.

And when you say "epidemic", do you mean it's spreading?
Well, I can't say if it's spreading. I certainly hope not. The number of creationists is already far too high. I didn't have any lessons about evolution in high school, and that wasn't so long ago. I hope this has changed... but I doubt it.

(EDIT: Looks like Perihelion posted a lengthy message about this issue. If what I typed is redundant, well, that just means you can believe it :D )

[Godless Dave]

Senator Norm Coleman, Wellstone's replacement, is also Jewish. Former(?) Senator Diane Feinstein is Jewish. Are there more Jewish senators? I know there are a number of Jewish representatives.

[Voltaire's girl]

Norm "the grinch" Colman.

[atheist_in_foxhole]

Originally posted by Godless Dave
Senator Norm Coleman, Wellstone's replacement, is also Jewish. Former(?) Senator Diane Feinstein is Jewish. Are there more Jewish senators?

Yes. Schumer, Feingold, Lautenberg, Wyden, Levin, Boxer etc.

[kelsos]

Over here in Europe it's a rare occasion people ever talk about religion, unless you ask them. It's not considered polite. In general, the public opinion begins to fathom the idea that Christians are no longer te majority (at least in my country, Germany) so atheists and heathens here can consider themselves lucky. People who believe evolution is false are as rare as members of the flat-earth-society.

The current German government even caused a minor outrage (in certain papers, mostly) because it is the first administration where about half the politicians refused to add "So help me God" to their oath of office. There were lots of letters to the editor in many papers where readers feared the total decline of Germany without the help of God, but four years later, it's close to forgotten now.

Churches are everywhere too, and fish stickers as well as other jesus signs on cars. Religious broadcasts (always Christian, with the occasional alibi jewish one) in the state controlled media (the private media - radio and TV - more or less ignores religion).

But what really pisses many off, and justly so, is the gerneral consensus lie about things religious. Most people are still member of their churches because they believe that church taxes (Germany still has the state collecting church taxes, thanks to Adolf Hitler) are used for charity purposes, when nothing could be further from the truth. Even the Churches themselves do not claim to use more than 10% for charity. But apart from a few fringe atheists no one seems to know.

A second, interesting, yet annoying thing is that meanwhile the Christians have teamed up with the Muslims (Germany has a large Turk minority, who were immigrants in economically better days, a decade or two ago) to defeat the Church-State separation even more, although the Churches have their say everywhere they should not.

For example, some states have introduced a secular form of religious education for schools, that is the students learn about different religions and discuss ethical issues from an unbiased point of view. One should not believe the outrage this has caused in some sections of the population.

It seems, the Christians now appear to view the Muslims (also God-believers) as a lesser evil than Secularism, and try to assist Muslims help to apply for the introduction of Islamic religion as subject in schools, together with the traditional (but general-tax-funded) Christian religion teaching.

The "Bible-Belt" of Germany is Bavaria, where recently a court decided that it was unlawful under the German constitution for the (Bavarian) State to have mandatory crucifixes in public schools. The Bavarians responded with adapting their illegal statutory order with another one, hypocritically providing for "parents who do not agree on the general consensus that a crucifix should be there." Of course, this never happens.

Most European countries have their own church-state relationships with the most advanced probably in France, but the general consensus for most Europeans to keep religious opinions as a private matter is fairly representative.

[The Other Michael]

The current German government even caused a minor outrage (in certain papers, mostly) because it is the first administration where about half the politicians refused to add "So help me God" to their oath of office. There were lots of letters to the editor in many papers where readers feared the total decline of Germany without the help of God, but four years later, it's close to forgotten now.

Right, Germany has just been going downhill ever since they took "Gott mit uns" off the belt buckles. :rolleyes:

Thanks for telling us how things are in Europe.

cheers,
Michael

[lhiuvme]

9) The Christian persecution complex, which makes people moan and wail about how their rights are being violated by the absence of mandatory school prayer.

Christian moan less about their rights being trampled...what they do moan about is the nation's morality. They seem to think that God judges not only people, but entire nations. This belief allows Xtians to hate non-Xtians because we are the proverbial "player who ruins it for the whole team".

That is why Pat Robertson blamed Sept. 11 on infidels, gays, etc. he KNEW that Xtians wouold then have a new reason to rain their Godly hate on that group without guilt. He knows what he's doing.

lhiuvme

[reprise]

It occured to me overnight that perhaps the most visible sign of Christianity in Australia (apart from the actual church buildings themselves) is within the education, health, and welfare systems. The vast majority of private schools in Australia are run by the Church, and the majority of welfare organisations (including those which organise foster care and adoption) operate under the auspices of one church or another. Up until recently, the majority of private hospitals were also operated by the Christian churches.

While church-founded social programmes such as those referred to above receive significant government funding, they would be unable to continue operation on such a scale without donations from the general public - and I suspect that it is precisely because most people's interaction with the church occurs on an entirely practical level (rather than an evangelical one) that such widespread financial support continues in an increasing secular society.

Although the extent of government funding of private schools is a controversial issue, there is widespread community support even among those who are indifferent or opposed to organised religion for the other social programmes administered by the mainstream churches.

[stilus]

It seems, the Christians now appear to view the Muslims (also God-believers) as a lesser evil than Secularism, and try to assist Muslims help to apply for the introduction of Islamic religion as subject in schools, together with the traditional (but general-tax-funded) Christian religion teaching.


That's funny, the same kind of thing is happening in the Netherlands: Allthough the muslims and everyone looking even remotely "not-white" is having a hard time in the Netherlands, and even the government saying things and acting in a way nobody would have accepted before Pim Fortuyn and 9/11, there is this one curious exception: religious school-rights.

There are plenty of catholic and protestant schools around (don't know anything about Jewish though) and the muslims are starting their own schools. The funny thing is that te fundamentalist Christians would really like to see those disapear, but they have to promote their rights: If muslim-schools were not allowed because of their fundamentalist nature, then neither would the strict protestant and catholic schools... Looks like the Relie's over here are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. :D

[Millay1313]

Originally posted by reprise
Heaven's Gate

Jonestown

September 11, 2001


I assumed people would realize my intentions with me having to state them. Obviously if your lack of religion or your religious beliefs cause you joy, that is great as long as these views to not cause you to murder people.

I hope this clarifies it all.



;)

[The Lone Ranger]

Instead, they've wisely squandered parish money to erect a *gigantic* and gaudy cross in the streetside courtyard which fully illuminates at night. And when I mean gigantic, I do not exaggerate. The cross was as high as the two story church buildings. But I'm sure they built it to ward off people who seek to persecute them.

Keeps those pesky vampires away. . .

I never know whether to be frightened or amused when I hear Christians complaining about how they're "persecuted" just because the U.S. isn't (yet) a Christian theocracy.

What really concerns me is how religious anti-evolutionists have gutted science education in this country. High schools are all too prone to avoid the subject entirely, for fear of upsetting students and their parents. After I received my master's degree (I was living in North Carolina at the time), I applied for a job to teach Advanced Biology at the high school level. At the interview, all went well until they asked me my position on the "controversial" subject of evolution. I told them that "Evolution is the central organizing principle of modern biology, and I'll tell them exactly that." The temperature in the room instantly dropped by about ten degrees, and from the looks on their faces, I knew that I'd just lost all chance of getting that job.

I wrote an occasional column for a small-town North Carolina newspaper at about the same time, and I would sometimes write about evolutionary biology. Whenever I did, the paper would receive dozens of irate letters, demanding to know why on God's Green Earth they would allow such "anti-Christian trash" to be printed. This was despite the fact that I always bent over backwards to avoid criticizing anyone's religious beliefs.

On at least one occasion, the paper received a letter in which the writer threatened my life. In it, the writer stated that anyone who believes in "evilution" is clearly a despicable person who's destined for Hell -- and that he sincerely hoped that I would end up there soon.

Cheers,

Michael

[Purr]

Originally posted by Millay1313
I can see how it is very annoying/frustrating to see there are so many people who believe in something that is false in your opinion.
However, you may not be as frustrated and "pissed off" if you look at it in a different way.
Does it really matter what anyone else believes in or does not believe in. I look at religious beliefs & views that are different from mine this way...If what a person believes in gives them a sense of security, happiness and/or comfort who am I or anyone else to take that away from them. If you take someones securities away, then what is left. I don't want to take that from anyone and vice versa.
However, at the same time when someone's beliefs or views are being forced on you to make you feel uncomfortable you should say something. You should just tell them your views on religions and hopefully your talk with them will lead to a learning experience for everyone. Hopefully they will be able to have an open mind.
Good Luck to you.
:D

Oh good. I didn't really feel like typing.
Ahem... Ditto!

[johngalt]

*deep breath*

[chanoc]

I live in Juneau, Alaska, and it's choke full of theists. Until just a few days ago I was dating a theist girlfriend, yet that changed. Finally I found a heathen girlfriend (*11 years younger than my 31 years), and hope to connect with more heathens. My point is that if I moved there would be one less freethinker in this town, and more fundees would abound in Juneau. Don't move, just seek out other freethinkers. :)

[Deacon Doubtmonger]

One hideous bit of fundy pukerism in Denver: Two of the hospitals in the metro area were once owned by the Seventh-Day Adventists. Not only do they still practice all the dietary restrictions in Leviticus, taking hospital food to a new low, but they also believe in the value of prayer in healing and thus force all patients to listen to a daily prayer on the intercom! BARRRRRRF! :banghead: Just what you need when trying to get some sleep after a tough night of surgery ...

Also hateful: Any hospital that sends you a chaplain without your having asked!

Deacon Doubtmonger

http://e4u.consoleradar.com/crazy/1198.gifhttp://e4u.consoleradar.com/crazy/1198.gifhttp://e4u.consoleradar.com/crazy/1198.gifhttp://e4u.consoleradar.com/crazy/1198.gifhttp://e4u.consoleradar.com/crazy/1198.gif
religion

[Bright Life]

This is my first post to IIDB, so I think this thread is an appropriate opportunity to share a little about my life.

When I consider how bad it CAN be, I really can't complain. If I was suspected of cheating on my husband, I would not be stoned. If I go out in the street with exposed knees, I won't be beaten by the police.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that the daily barbs I encounter do not wildly irritate me.

I live in Jacksonville, Florida. 20 years ago, when I was a kid around here, you couldn't find any kind of store open (much less buy alcohol). Of course, that has changed now, as our city leaders want to make sure folks know we are the "Bold New City of the South."

15 years ago, when I "came out" in high school (family already knew, but that's another story) I received death threats in my locker, and was accused of being the antichrist (which I found amusing, seeing as how I was the first born--and female).

Today, downtown Jacksonville has a most innappropriate landmark. A certain baptist church (which owns several BLOCKS of property) erected a four story, black, white and red lighthouse, with the obligatory symbol of Roman execution on top. For months they ran the fully functional lamp atop this monstrosity day and night. Finally, they were asked by the city to block some of the light's path, as it struck full strength into the retirement high-rise 24/7.

A perfect example of how some o' the religious just don't consider how their beliefs in action can effect others.

My entire family (with the exception of my husband) is xian. It is assumed here by most that everyone is xian--I mean "how" could you not be?

Of course, there are the frequent visitors to my home, who bring messages of love, community, fire and damnation. If they are polite (or happen to be dragging their kids along http://www.iidb.org/vbb/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&threadid=60819#
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&threadid=60819#) I tell them that my religious views are private, and I do not discuss them with strangers. If this does not send them on their way, I usually just say "no thank you" and shut the door.

There are several religious radio and TV stations available for my "enjoyment." In addition, the only newspaper in town has a pervasive xian slant--the daily bible verse, for example.

These are small irritations, and I most frequently ignore them. What troubles me most is that our president (someone who is SUPPOSED to represent me) believes that there is a man up in the sky telling him to use our forces to kill the leaders of other countries.

He, and members of his party use religious beliefs to assasinate the character of those who oppose them. They use their wealth to buy power in what is supposed to be a representational democracy.

I realize I've begun to rant, so let me close with this thought. The xians may not be attacking us bodily, but they continuously attack the rights that keep us free of their control.