6000 year old earth...

[conkermaniac]

How exactly do fundies determine that the earth is approximately 6000 years old from the Bible? :confused:

[keyser_soze]

Well, they generally use the begats section...and some self inspired delusional content as well. There is a nice thread on it here in several places, and a thread at sarfartiworshippers about the problems with a 6000 year old earth, and egypt with a history at least a couple millenia older. And that's not even taking into account china, which has been civilized since europeans were still living in mud houses and caves. They have a rather unique and DOCUMENTED history...they have been fond of writing for a while, and actually invented the printing press a few centuries before the gutenberg...

[Jack the Bodiless]

It's also worth noting that young-Earthers usually say "6,000 to 10,000 years" or thereabouts.

...Even though there is no Biblical basis for the older figure. From the genealogies, 4000 BC or thereabouts IS the correct age, but it's embarrassingly recent even for YEC's.

Similarly, the Flood supposedly happened in 2300 BC or thereabouts, during Egypt's Old Kingdom period. The Egyptians failed to notice it.

[conkermaniac]

I understand that they use the "begat" section to determine the age of the earth, but is there anywhere I can find this exact list? :confused:

[Evolutionist]

I understand that they use the "begat" section to determine the age of the earth, but is there anywhere I can find this exact list?

gen 5 has a pretty long begat list...

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by Evolutionist
gen 5 has a pretty long begat list... ...which only goes up to Noah, unfortunately. I believe that we would need a list that extends all the way to Jesus in order to determine the age of the earth according to the Bible.

[Doctor X]

Actually, it comes from Bishop Usher. It is also the source for "9 AM"--fans of Inherit the Wind will recall that Brady/Bryant proudly states exactly when the world began. I remember seeing the film and my dad laughing, "I always wonder where they got '9 AM.'"

According to a mentor--so take it with some handsful of sodium chloride because I am too lazy to confirm it--Usher worked through the "begats" 'n stuff to come up with the figure. "9 AM" was a "joke." I cannot remember which university he hailed from--Oxford or Cambridge--but it is the one where classes begin at 9 AM--he was joking that the world began as his alma mater began.

Probably as good of an explanation as any.

--J.D.

[Heathen Dawn]

Ussher was serious and gave out the date of 4004 BCE by calculating the "begats". It was John Lightfoot of Cambridge University who gave the joke time of 9 AM, 23rd of October - the start of the semester at his university.

See also Paul Tobin's calculation (http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/age.html) for a modern estimate (4165 BCE).

[excreationist]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
...which only goes up to Noah, unfortunately. I believe that we would need a list that extends all the way to Jesus in order to determine the age of the earth according to the Bible.
In Matthew 1 and Luke 3 Jesus's ancestors are traced back to at least Abraham, though they don't talk about numbers.

AiG - Dating Noah's Flood (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3563.asp)
Here Answers in Genesis works out when Noah's flood was supposed to have happened... they used an event in 1 Kings that apparently has an archaelogical date and they traced that back to Genesis... their date for the flood is 2304 BC +/- 11 years and so creation would be at about 4000 BC.

Also, in their Which arguments should definitely not be used? (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp) section, it says "‘There are gaps in the genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11 so the Earth may be 10,000 years old or even more.’ This is not so. The language is clear that they are strict chronologies, especially because they give the age of the father at the birth of the next name in line. So the Earth is only about 6,000 years old."

Also, apparently the traditional Jewish calendar sets the date of creation at about 6000 years ago. I guess the calendar was started by some ancient scholars who used the genealogies to work out the date of creation.

[Doctor X]

Heathen Dawn:

It was John Lightfoot of Cambridge University who gave the joke time of 9 AM, 23rd of October - the start of the semester at his university.

Ah! Excellent! Nice to know there is something behind a story.

--J.D.

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by excreationist
Also, apparently the traditional Jewish calendar sets the date of creation at about 6000 years ago. I guess the calendar was started by some ancient scholars who used the genealogies to work out the date of creation.

The traditional Jewish calendar sets the date of creation at 5763 years from today - 3761 BCE. It is based on a 2nd century CE Talmudic chronology called Seder Olam Rabba.

[Volker.Doormann]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
How exactly do fundies determine that the earth is approximately 6000 years old from the Bible? :confused: The simple truth behind this number is, that this 5763 years do not determine the age of the earth, it is simple the number of years counts in the Hebrew calendar. Because the Hebrew calendar is a moon calendar - most all of the Hebrew ritulals are coupled to moon phases (Passover) and are religious symbols of life and death, - Hebrew priest have back calulated the 235 lunation's of the nineteen-year cycles of eclipses to the year 3760 BCE October 7 (in the Julian proleptic calendar).

Some stupid Hebrew scholars then have taken the myths from the Genesis (Hebrew: B'Reyshith, = Beginnings) which are of Sumerian and Indian origin 1.) (Vedas) and have coupled this 'Era of Creation' with the start of this calendar. But if in 3760 BCE there was a constant frequency in the 19 year cycle of sun and moon, it is no problem to counts the years in the Hebrew calendar Before That Era.

In the Hebrew Calendar the years are counted from the 'Era of Creation', or 'Era Mundi', which corresponds to -3760 October 7 on the Julian proleptic calendar. Each year consists of twelve or thirteen months, with months consisting of 29 or 30 days. An intercalary month is introduced in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19 in a nineteen-year cycle of 235 lunation's.

1.) "The non-existent was not; the existent was not at that time. The atmosphere was not nor the heavens which are beyond. What was concealed? Where? In whose protection? Was it water? An fathomable abyss? There was neither death nor immortality then. There was not distinction of day or night. That alone breathed windless by its own power. Other than that there was not anything else. Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning. All this was an indistinguishable sea. That which becomes, that which was enveloped by the void, that alone was born through the power of heat. Upon that desire arose in the beginning. This was the first discharge of thought. Sages discovered this link of the existent to the nonexistent, having searched in the heart with wisdom. Their line [of vision] was extended across; what was below, what was above? There were impregnators, there were powers: inherent power below, impulses above. Who knows truly? Who here will declare whence it arose, whence this creation? The gods are subsequent to the creation of this. Who, then, knows whence it has come into being? Whence this creation has come into being; whether it was made or not; he in the highest heaven is its surveyor. Surely he knows, or perhaps he knows not."
(Rig Veda)

I think it is stupid to beat on anything in a book, while the relations of astrological basis in the Indian Rig Veda and in the Thorah myths are well known to them, who seek.

Volker

[excreationist]

Volker.Doormann:
The simple truth behind this number is, that this 5763 years do not determine the age of the earth, it is simple the number of years counts in the Hebrew calendar.
Are you saying that those who invented the Jewish calendar didn't think it signified the number of years since creation?

Consider these quotes:
http://www.bartleby.com/61/86/J0038600.html
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

Jewish calendar
NOUN: The lunisolar calendar used to mark the events of the Jewish year, dating the creation of the world at 3761 b.c.

http://www.kalendersysteme.de/english/calendar/systems/calendar_03.html#notes
A.M. Anno Mundi - ab creatione mundi (since creation of the world)
....
Jewish world era - The Patriarch Hillel IInd Náir specified the time of the creation of the world on 6th October 3761 b.o.c. (after the proleptisch Julian calendar).
to 3761 b.o.c. year 1 corresponds to the Jewish world era.

http://www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/node4.html#SECTION00480000000000000000
Years are counted since the creation of the world, which is assumed to have taken place in 3761 BC. In that year, AM 1 started (AM = Anno Mundi = year of the world).

In the year AD 2003 we witness the start of Hebrew year AM 5764.

[Volker.Doormann]

Originally posted by excreationist
Are you saying that those who invented the Jewish calendar didn't think it signified the number of years since creation? I say, that "Some stupid Hebrew scholars then have taken the myths from the Genesis (Hebrew: B'Reyshith, = Beginnings) which are of Sumerian and Indian origin 1.) (Vedas) and have coupled this 'Era of Creation' with the start of this calendar. But if in 3760 BCE there was a constant frequency in the 19 year cycle of sun and moon, it is no problem to counts the years in the Hebrew calendar Before That Era. "

It is no secret that thousands of theologicians now are on the history path searching a HJ, while the canonical Gospel Jesus is recognizable a myth. Don't blame them who have worked out a valuable Jewish calender to live in harmony with the nature of the moon and sun etc.; blame stupid historians, who ignore the spiritual orign of the Jewish culture in Christianity and Judaism. Seems, that you ignores that too.

Volker

[excreationist]

Volker.Doormann:
I think the world is billions of years old. I'm saying that early Jewish people believed the world was created a few thousand years ago.
You said:
"In the Hebrew Calendar the years are counted from the 'Era of Creation', or 'Era Mundi', which corresponds to -3760 October 7
Doesn't "Era of Creation" refer to the creation of the world? It doesn't matter whether a young earth is a myth... I'm talking about what the early Jews believed.

[Volker.Doormann]

Originally posted by excreationist
I think the world is billions of years old. I'm saying that early Jewish people believed the world was created a few thousand years ago. Doesn't "Era of Creation" refer to the creation of the world? It doesn't matter whether a young earth is a myth... I'm talking about what the early Jews believed. It is of no meaning what you think. You must give proofs. You cannot give a proof about the time prior to Big Bang. It is simpel your personal believe, that the world has a countable age. There is no reason, why the world has an age; energy cannot be created to be then mass. Pure science fiction. The world was ever; the world is; material (mass) or immaterial (energy).

I have given you serious hints to my claims, to verify this in scientific manner. You can find, that the creation myth is not of Jewish origin. This shows, that each claim of Hebrew scholars on a historical timeline is arrogant and wrong. The accuracy of the Hebrew calendar is based on serious astronomical data. In the same way you can study the meaning of the Hebrew myths, to understand its spiritual meaning of them, as the writer of Mesopotamia in 2800 BCE have dramatized the same theme. There is no reasonable relation that ancient people were more stupid then present people. Knowledge is an individal quality, not a quality of the time.

Your saying is of no worth, because you cannot give a proof about. Your saying is pure fiction. It is not a common practice in science to interpret the belief of 'early Jewish people', because you have no facts.

What is the belief of early American people? Do all the individuals belief in the very same idea?

Judaism is a culture containing so many thoughts and individuals not one. Reincarnation is a common understanding in the Jewish mysticism, and some guys ignore the Saurian, because they were told, that the world was not then. But astrology was part of the Jewish culture, or sometimes war. They have captured the great myths from Sumerian to the Hebrew language and have done spiritual science in secret.

The real fiction is, that there are Jews. There are only individuals like you and me, imperfect and sitting in a mortal body, searching for truth (sometime). Who cares about Isms.

Volker

[Amos]

The real fiction is, that there are Jews. There are only individuals like you and me, imperfect and sitting in a mortal body, searching for truth (sometime). Who cares about Isms.

Volker

. . . and then there were mythmakers who juxtaposed heaven with earth to form the genesis for a new civilization that would prosper and "become as numerous as the kernels of sand on the beach." These were the fathers of Juda-ism for out of their insigth the civilization was born and it doesn't matter if some elements were borrowed from existing cultures because all cultures have an archetypal similarity or they would not be true to the reality they represent.

[excreationist]

Originally posted by Volker.Doormann
.....Your saying is of no worth, because you cannot give a proof about. Your saying is pure fiction. It is not a common practice in science to interpret the belief of 'early Jewish people', because you have no facts.

What is the belief of early American people? Do all the individuals belief in the very same idea?....
Ok... not all early Jews necessarily believed that the world was a few thousand years old. But at least one of them did, and him/they were influential enough to put a date for creation on the Jewish calendar which the Jews generally adopted. Some Jews probably reject the calendar though. BTW, I'm aware of the Hebrew creation myths coming from elsewhere.

[Volker.Doormann]

Originally posted by Amos
. . . and then there were mythmakers who juxtaposed heaven with earth to form the genesis for a new civilization that would prosper and "become as numerous as the kernels of sand on the beach." These were the fathers of Juda-ism for out of their insigth the civilization was born and it doesn't matter if some elements were borrowed from existing cultures because all cultures have an archetypal similarity or they would not be true to the reality they represent. "When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.
(Jiddu Krishnamurti) "

[Volker.Doormann]

Originally posted by excreationist
Ok... not all early Jews necessarily believed that the world was a few thousand years old. But at least one of them did, and him/they were influential enough to put a date for creation on the Jewish calendar which the Jews generally adopted. You cannot give a proof. The start of a calendar is arbitrary, it must only match to astronomical laws. Myths cannot create moon calendars, but a calendar can creat myths.

Volker

[Amos]

Exactly and during this violence the new world is created and it is only after this kind of violence that the infinite peace is found (Krishnamurti missed this al together).

This, then, is why Jews cannot have a homeland of their own but must find their home in their own heritage = Is-ra-el. This concept is much like the aboriginal heritage proclaimed by the Canadian Indian that we don't seem to understand.

[Volker.Doormann]

Originally posted by Amos
Exactly and during this violence the new world is created and it is only after this kind of violence that the infinite peace is found (Krishnamurti missed this al together). Violence does create violence and nothing else. The world is our wold; we have only this one. People who are thinking about to create a new world, are ignorant about the reason of violence, and ignorant about the reality. There never will be peace in this world, because this word is imperfect. This word is a trash can. If all people in this world would stop their violence against each other, an there would only one new born terrorist suppressing the world, there would no peace in this world. And there will born imperfect people all the time. Peace in this world is a fiction. Peace is a state of the individual, that is still. Mind is still. Only perception of that, what is, without judge, without a busy analyzing mind, without a mind waiting for peace and ignore the other, because he is the other. This, then, is why Jews cannot have a homeland of their own but must find their home in their own heritage = Is-ra-el. It is a great mistake to think, that the missing homeland and this IsraEl is exclusive for Jews. You can read in the Gilgamesh Epic from Sumer, that the search for this homeland is well known prior to the development of the Semitic culture in Mesopotamia. Exact the belief, that this Exodus to homeland is for Jews only has created that violence, from that Krishnamurti has spoken about. Born into a nation or born into religion or religious culture means nothing. This education is a cloth of the character, which is also a cloth of the soul. The myths of the bible have parabelized this outer cloth of the 'religious' mind as part of the body as 'Egypt' from which the souls must escape to find homeland. This painful process, which each individual - and not Jews only - must realize, is designed in the Torah myth as IsraEl = 'He, who struggles with god'. It is a very individual process, not a political process commanded by the specific religions and their (power) claims. Homeland is a spritual homeland, not a place in this world. No need to be violent in this world.

Volker

[Amos]

Originally posted by Volker.Doormann
. This painful process, which each individual - and not Jews only - must realize, is designed in the Torah myth as IsraEl = 'He, who struggles with god'. It is a very individual process, not a political process commanded by the specific religions and their (power) claims. Homeland is a spritual homeland, not a place in this world. No need to be violent in this world.

Volker

Exactly, and this "struggle" is what Krishnamurti called violence. The new world to be enjoyed will have been created during our involutionary period that ends (or it would not be involutionary) in the crisis moment when the new world is found. This new world is the same old world, yes indeed, but now seen from a different perspective.

I would never say that this "missing homeland" is exclusive for Jews but since the spiritual Israel is supposed to be their homeland the search for a geographic location is misleading and brings about the violence and chaos you so much resent.

In Catholicism we are to find unity with God and then leave the Church which at that time will have served its purpose as a means to the end. In others words, our religion is for sinners (we have the confessionals to prove this) and so salvation is not an existing part of our religion but our religion just prepares us for salvation and that's all. After that we are on our own.

[RED DAVE]

To Volker.Doormann:

The question of a Jewish homeland in Israel notwithstanding (I myself am not a Zionist), I find your tone of voice towards Jews ("stupdi"; "arrogant") to verge on antisemitism.

Coming as you do from Germany, I would watch my words a little more carefully.

RED DAVE

[Volker.Doormann]

Originally posted by RED DAVE
To Volker.Doormann:

The question of a Jewish homeland in Israel notwithstanding (I myself am not a Zionist), I find your tone of voice towards Jews ("stupdi"; "arrogant") to verge on antisemitism.

Coming as you do from Germany, I would watch my words a little more carefully.

RED DAVE My experience is, that such social morality claims directed to persons, or persons because the were born in a specific nation, not able to argue own thoughts on the subject in a discussion forum of Biblical Criticism & History, has no serious base.

[Doctor X]

Red Dave:

Watch yourself!! If you start asking him to justify his proclamations he will put you on "ignore" which, I gather, is like a really bad thing.

Nevertheless, you are correct in noting that language does not belong on Biblical Criticism & History.

--J.D.

[RED DAVE]

From Volker.Doormann:

My experience is, that such social morality claims directed to persons, or persons because the were born in a specific nation, not able to argue own thoughts on the subject in a discussion forum of Biblical Criticism & History, has no serious base.

My experience is that people who give elliptical, semi-incoherent answers to very pointed posts are hiding something. I find your use of words like "stupid" and "arrogant" with regard to Jews to be offensive. And I find your reply to be evasive. As a follower, I believe, of Krishnamurti, and seemingly concerned about violence, you should be aware that verbal violence is a real category.

And, as a German, you should be especially careful of your words with regard to Jews.

RED DAVE

[Volker.Doormann]

Originally posted by RED DAVE
My experience is that people who give elliptical, semi-incoherent answers to very pointed posts are hiding something. I find your use of words like "stupid" and "arrogant" with regard to Jews to be offensive. And I find your reply to be evasive. As a follower, I believe, of Krishnamurti, and seemingly concerned about violence, you should be aware that verbal violence is a real category.

And, as a German, you should be especially careful of your words with regard to Jews. Your post contains again no argument to the subject, nor does it respect the forum rules.

You are on my ignore list.

[Amos]

Drop it Dave. Your point is made and if it makes you feel better, I love Judaism but don't like protestantism. Personally I don't know any Jews to either like of dislike but I know lots of protestants and I like them all.

[Doctor X]

Red Dave:

[Cue Audience--Ed.]

"Awwwwwwwwww. . . ."

Yes, sorry, Dave, we warned you, but you were put on the Volker--I'MNOTLISTENINGLA!LA!LA! Ignore List!

But, Johnnie? Tell Dave about his wonderful consolation prizes!

"A year's supply of Turtle Wax! Rice-a-Roni 'That San Francisco Treat!' The Hermeneutical Home Game!!"

--J.D.

[Peter Kirby]

Since this thread is thorougly derailed, I am closing it, with the understanding that any BC&H discussion can be resumed in a new thread. Also, in defense of Red Dave, he did not break any forum rules in this thread.

best,
Peter Kirby