Moore refused US Supreme Court Stay

[DigitalChicken]

I just heard on the radio that Roy Moore's "fast track" appeal to get a stay on the removal of the 10C monument in the courthouse was refused.

I'm sure someone will post a link when available.

DC

[DigitalChicken]

Here it is:

Court Rejects Ten Commandments Appeal (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=4&u=/ap/20030820/ap_on_re_us/ten_commandments).

DC

[Toto]

Supreme Court turns Moore down (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=4&u=/ap/20030820/ap_on_re_us/ten_commandments)


The justices said they would not be drawn, at least for now, into a dispute over whether the monument violates the Constitution's ban on government promotion of religion.

The high court was Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore's last hope to avoid a federal judge's midnight deadline to remove the display. It was unclear if Moore would comply. Other state officials have said the monument would be moved

[faust]

a different link (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/breaking_news/6577589.htm)

I for one am enjoying this spectacle and will make it a point to be watching tv live when midnight hits and the fundies start visiting prison, from the inside this time.

[Ronin]

Man...thost theists twitching and prostrating themselves on the courthouse steps is something right out of the effin Hajj.

It's creepy, sad and addle-brained all at the same time.

[RobertE]

Poop. I posted a question in the other thread too soon.

I'm hoping FAUX News broadcasts images of the religiously insane throwing themselves in front of the backhoe sent to remove the thing. That would be fun.

[Ronin]

Put your idiot box on MSNBC...they've been vogue-ing the handful of Talibamians every twenty minutes or so.

The "Revelation" gleam in their eyes is truly the work of Stephen King.

[beejay]

Don't wait until midnight...things may be afoot.

Security officers in Montgomery have ordered the media away from the Ten Commandments
monument in the rotunda of the Alabama Judicial Building. WTVM was one of the last
television stations to broadcast a live image from inside the building.

News Leader 9's Jason Dennis reports from the scene that security officers took the
action when it became clear that many supporters of the monument did not intend to
vacate the building at its scheduled 6 p.m. (5 p.m. Central) closing hour


WTVM - Columbus GA TV station (http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=1410381&nav=8fapHZN2)

It would make sense for the state to move the monument tonight, so they are not in contempt.

[Ronin]

Nevermind...here is a photo-op...for all posterior ~

http://a799.g.akamai.net/3/799/388/8b3c2aa20b9e4d/www.msnbc.com/news/1989048.jpg

...a comparative review ~

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2003/02/10/evening350.jpg

[Jewel]

Well, this should be good.

The sad thing for me is that my own mother believes those asshats when they scream about their rights to practice their religion are being taken away. And nothing I can say (presumably because I am an atheist) can convince her that she is mistaken. Makes me crazy.

[john_v_h]

Arrests begin at monument showdown (http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=1410234&nav=0RdEHZFZ)

Protestors have been arrested in the Alabama Judicial Building. Early reports indicate 11 people have been arrested so far and at least one man had to be dragged away from the area.

[Atheist121]

Oh the irony of people bowing down to an idol that speaks out against idolatry. Damn, my irony-meter just exploded.

[Grumpy]

A different comparison has crossed my mind, beyond Alabama = Taliban. I've been thinking about Trofim Lysenko and his disastrous effect on Soviet genetics. He believed Mendelian heredity was incompatible with Marxist philosophy, and tried to breed superior wheat using Lamarckian inheritance. Millions starved.

Roy Moore is making a similar philosophical assertion: our laws are established on God. Are they? Nobody can say for sure.

The Lysenko example tells me that it's unwise to enshrine particular philosophical viewpoints in stone (literally), especially the kind that can never be proved. Lysenko's problem, of course, was that there was ample proof that he was wrong, but none of that matters when you're best pals with Stalin.

[Flynn McKerrow]

Originally posted by Atheist121
Oh the irony of people bowing down to an idol that speaks out against idolatry. Damn, my irony-meter just exploded. But does it, though? Just exactly which ten commandments are on the monument?

[faust]

you want to know why this guy is so dangerous?
Look at his supporters! (caution, extremism) (http://www.nationalist.org/alt/2003/aug/sidestep.html)

The genesis of the present constitutional crisis in Alabama is the 1954 attempt by the United States Supreme Court to thrust Negroes into society, followed by the court's similar move in behalf of atheists in 1963, miscegenationiats in 1967 and homosexuals in 2003.

If the courts are prohibited from forcing Negroes in, they will be powerless to force God out.

[Toto]

Extremism? or lunatic fringism?

That site is so extreme it isn't really dangerous. Jerry Falwell is dangerous because he has adapted enough to the modern world to function in it. Someone who attacks every other right wing leader for allowing "Negros" into their organization and consorting with Jews is just a nutcase.

[StrictSeparationist]

Originally posted by Flynn McKerrow
But does it, though? Just exactly which ten commandments are on the monument?

The idoltry one is definitely there. In fact, they're all there, but apparently there was some funny business going on with the first one. An article was posted about that a while ago.

[Ronin]

Has anyone heard anything from Roy Moore?

Some of 'His' supporters have been 'removed' from the area in handcuffs, but I haven't seen the Captain of this ship as of yet.

[Berenger Sauniere]

Originally posted by Ronin
Has anyone heard anything from Roy Moore?

Some of 'His' supporters have been 'removed' from the area in handcuffs, but I haven't seen the Captain of this ship as of yet.

He was just on the phone with Forest Sawyer on MSNBC (there was a problem with the video feed). He was still blabbering about Alabama's right to worship its god. :confused:

[Wendya01]

Originally posted by john_v_h
Arrests begin at monument showdown (http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=1410234&nav=0RdEHZFZ)

Interesting link. Bill Pryor is now saying he will uphold the law. It seems only yesterday that he was an ardent supporter of Moore and his graven image. He has spoken at pro-Moore rallys in the past.

[StrictSeparationist]

Originally posted by Wendya01
Interesting link. Bill Pryor is now saying he will uphold the law. It seems only yesterday that he was an ardent supporter of Moore and his graven image. He has spoken at pro-Moore rallys in the past.

Pryor does seem to support Moore's position on church-state separation, but I don't think he agrees with the Chief Justice's idiotic conception of the authority of the federal courts, particularly since he's been nominated to one himself. So while he was quite vocal in his support of Moore during the litigation, since the final order was issued, Bill has been noticeably muted in his cheerleading for the monument. He has stated publicly that he believes the monument will be moved. It has not escaped the attention of the media that he hasn't said who's going to be doing the moving, but it's generally assumed that Pryor will not further jeopardize his 11th Circuit nomination with complicity in open defiance of a court order. Thus, it seems that the principle of res judicata has deprived Roy of one of his most stalwart allies.

[The Other Michael]

Thus, it seems that the principle of res judicata has deprived Roy of one of his most stalwart allies.


Oh, I'm sure that if Pryor gets confirmed to the circuit court he'll be right back supporting RM in all his radiant lunacy. He'll be able to behave long enough to put on a compliant face before the Senate.

yechhh
Michael

[StrictSeparationist]

Originally posted by The Other Michael
Oh, I'm sure that if Pryor gets confirmed to the circuit court he'll be right back supporting RM in all his radiant lunacy. He'll be able to behave long enough to put on a compliant face before the Senate.

yechhh
Michael

I would hope that he would have at least some sense of judicial responsibility. Speaking out on issues that may come before you on the bench is really quite inappropriate, and the fact that Supreme Court justices (well, really just Scalia) indulge in the practice does not excuse it.

[SLD]

Well the latest is that Moore is saying screw 'em. He's not moving. To be expected. I just wish that they'd make him personally responsible for the $5,000/day fine. What an idiot. What an embarassing day for Alabama.

SLD

[beejay]

Originally posted by Ronin
Has anyone heard anything from Roy Moore?

Some of 'His' supporters have been 'removed' from the area in handcuffs, but I haven't seen the Captain of this ship as of yet.

He was also on CNN tonight...sticking to his old argument.

He's not (of course) moving the monument. I hope the plaintiffs are at the federal court first thing tomorrow morning, asking for a contempt citation.

[Gravity]

You guys do know this is not a good thing, I mean for atheists, right?

There is no good reason why Alabama shouldn't be able to decorate its court and state houses with religous paraphernalia.

Really, this shouldn't have gotten as far as this has. It should have been dropped. Going through the courts like this to enforce secularism is not helping.

[beejay]

Originally posted by Gravity
You guys do know this is not a good thing, I mean for atheists, right?

There is no good reason why Alabama shouldn't be able to decorate its court and state houses with religous paraphernalia.

Really, this shouldn't have gotten as far as this has. It should have been dropped. Going through the courts like this to enforce secularism is not helping.

I think it's a good thing to have the First Amendment respected.

The good reason is the Establishment clause.

(But I imagine you have something in mind.)

I don't agree with the "don't stand up for your rights, you'll just energize the Religious Reich" philosophy. They are already energized.

[openeyes]

Originally posted by Jewel
Well, this should be good.

The sad thing for me is that my own mother believes those asshats when they scream about their rights to practice their religion are being taken away. And nothing I can say (presumably because I am an atheist) can convince her that she is mistaken. Makes me crazy. I'd be a little afraid to raise this topic around certain family members also, thinking they'd react like your mom.

[Rhaedas]

I understand Gravity's point, that as non-believers it may be better to just shrug such things off as their nonsense, and move on, rather than make such a circus event.

But unfortunately, if you give them an inch, they'll be back for more again and again. The fundies who are pushing for the 10C in public areas, the public praying in school, the teaching of the bible and creationism, etc, etc, won't stop at those points. Any success means a green light to promote more of their beliefs, and you can't tell me any of them have any respect for the 1st amendment if it doesn't involve christianity.

They have no concept that the evil atheists out to build the wall of separation are doing it for EVERYONE'S benefit, not some anti-christianity movement, so you can believe what you want to believe, regardless of what it is.

So anyway, back to the topic, you can't let an obsessed power hungry judge throw his weight around if it violates and misuses taxpayer's money for religious purposes. If you do, there'll be more elsewhere who will say because it's okay there, it's okay here. And pretty soon, you have federal courts saying that such things are "de minimus" and "historically accepted", and that's the way it's always been, why change?

[Ovazor]

Originally posted by Gravity
You guys do know this is not a good thing, I mean for atheists, right?

There is no good reason why Alabama shouldn't be able to decorate its court and state houses with religous paraphernalia.

Really, this shouldn't have gotten as far as this has. It should have been dropped. Going through the courts like this to enforce secularism is not helping.

I don't see it as much about enforcing secularism than about the (IMO, of course) perfectly reasonable view that it is a duty of a judge to follow the law, not to ignore when following it goes against his personal religious views.

[southernhybrid]

I'm not an atheist zealot gravity but I disagree with you on this issue. I grew up during a time when we had prayer in the public school. Interestingly enough, in New Jersey where I grew up, the majority of the children were Catholics and my Baptist parents were quite the supporters of separation of church and state back then.

My third grade teacher who was a Catholic, used to tell us that we shouldn't eat meat on Fridays which was still part of the Catholic dogma at the time. She also used to tell us many of the Catholic stories they she was so fond of and even had us act out a little play about St. Christopher. Included in our day were Bible readings along with the entire class reciting the Lord's Prayer.

When prayer was removed from the schools in the early 60s, my parents were pleased with the decision even if it took an atheist to take the case through the courts. This is not an atheist issue and even today there are many theists who support separation of church and state.


My parents are now in their late 70s, still consider themselves evangelical Xians and still have contempt for people like Judge Moore.

[niggle]

Am I the only one who wanted it to go to the Supreme Court?

If it went to SC and we won, then it be that much easier to win elsewhere in the nation. Of course, if we lost, the 10Cs would probably go up in very courthouse around America.

[Stephen Maturin]

Originally posted by Gravity
You guys do know this is not a good thing, I mean for atheists, right?

Getting rid of a government endorsement of religion is a good thing for everyone, not just atheists. I'm past caring about any negative publicity this sort of thing might generate. That's always been there and probably always will be, at least during my lifetime.

Originally posted by Gravity
There is no good reason why Alabama shouldn't be able to decorate its court and state houses with religous paraphernalia.

I respectfully disagree. First, what's going on in Alabama goes light years beyond decoration. Second, and more important, the good reason you're looking for is that state officials lack the legal authority to do what Moore did here.

Originally posted by Gravity
Really, this shouldn't have gotten as far as this has. It should have been dropped.

Yes, it never should have gotten this far. Indeed, it never should have gotten started at all. Moore knew full well what installing that rock would lead to, but he did it anyway.

Originally posted by Gravity
Going through the courts like this to enforce secularism is not helping.

It's not really enforcing secularism so much as challenging a state official's ultra vires act. Legal action is by far the most effective means of reining in government officials who act beyond their authority.

[joedad]

What exactly happens to this boulder after it's removed? Has anyone come forward requesting it? Are we going to see it on ebay?

[DigitalChicken]

Originally posted by niggle
Am I the only one who wanted it to go to the Supreme Court?

If it went to SC and we won, then it be that much easier to win elsewhere in the nation. Of course, if we lost, the 10Cs would probably go up in very courthouse around America.

Its not rejected from the Supreme Court.... yet. The Supreme Court rejected an appeal by Moore to stay the removal order. He filed a request like you would file if someone was going to be exectued. In other words where the action would be irreversable. However, here the monument can be put back *if* the SC takes the case and *if* they overturn the lower court ruling.

DC

[cheetah]

MSNBC question of the day (http://www.msnbc.com/news/954934.asp?0cv=CB10) is: Should the 10Cs be removed? Sadly it's currently at about 65% NO. I guess I was hoping more people are rational. I know it's not scientific at all, but it would still be nice to see some indication of rationality in the American public. Well, I'll just convince myself that some fundie hacker voted 2,000 times or something...

[DigitalChicken]

Originally posted by Gravity
You guys do know this is not a good thing, I mean for atheists, right?

There is no good reason why Alabama shouldn't be able to decorate its court and state houses with religous paraphernalia.

Really, this shouldn't have gotten as far as this has. It should have been dropped. Going through the courts like this to enforce secularism is not helping.

I agree with you that this is a problem especially when the press is ignorant.

One problem with your statement is that it is not Alabama decorating it. It is Judge Roy Moore. Consider what you are saying. If they can decorate it liek they want then why not put a statue of a lynched black man? Would that be OK?

However, atheists are, inarguably, deficient when it comes to attacking the root problem which is NOT C-S Separation but ignorance, prejudice and hate.

However, you have to put out firers when they start and this is one of them.

DC

[john_v_h]

Justices Order Monument Out (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=4&u=/ap/20030821/ap_on_re_us/ten_commandments)
MONTGOMERY, Ala. - State Supreme Court justices overruled Chief Justice Roy Moore on Thursday and directed that his Ten Commandments monument be removed from its public site in the Alabama Judicial Building. The senior associate justice, Gorman Houston, said the eight associate justices instructed the building's manager to "take all steps necessary to comply ... as soon as practicable." The associate justices wrote that they are "bound by solemn oath to follow the law, whether they agree or disagree with it."

[SLD]

Originally posted by DigitalChicken

One problem with your statement is that it is not Alabama decorating it. It is Judge Roy Moore. Consider what you are saying. If they can decorate it liek they want then why not put a statue of a lynched black man? Would that be OK?



Well, it wouldn't violate the establishment clause. Perhaps Equal Protection.

But the point is not that we have some constitutional right to like what kind of statutes they put up there. We don't. I am sure that many African Americans do not like the Confederate monuments in many town squares throughout the South. But they aren't unconstitutional. C-S separation is so important to the second part of the 1st Amendment - freedom of religion. It is no accident that C-S separation is the first freedom mentioned in the Bill of Rights. Madison considered it essential to avoid the bloodshed of religious wars that had plagued Europe and was far more of a strict separationist than even today's liberal jurors. He opposed Congressional chaplains, military chaplains and tax exemption for religious institutions.

SLD

[ohwilleke]

Originally posted by Gravity
You guys do know this is not a good thing, I mean for atheists, right?

There is no good reason why Alabama shouldn't be able to decorate its court and state houses with religous paraphernalia.

Really, this shouldn't have gotten as far as this has. It should have been dropped. Going through the courts like this to enforce secularism is not helping.

There is good reason why Alabama should not try to make government favor a particular religion which is why it was done in the first place. This isn't some monument that has been there since the 50s without objection. This is a deliberate attempt of a judge elected on a platform of disregarding the first amendment and crushing atheists to provoke just such a suit and to proclaim that Alabama is a Christian government.

The establishment clause exists for very good reason, especially in places like Alabama where a significant minority believe that there already is a theocracy in place.

This suit will probably have the collateral effect of having Judge Moore removed from office for contempt of court. It may energize far right supporters, but Judge Moore's public struggle has also discredited him, AG Pryor (a federal court nominee) and the entire movement in the eyes of the apathetic middle as a bunch of religious nuts who have no regard for the law.

[hezekiah jones]

Originally posted by ohwilleke
This suit will probably have the collateral effect of having Judge Moore removed from office for contempt of court. It may energize far right supporters, but Judge Moore's public struggle has also discredited him, AG Pryor (a federal court nominee) and the entire movement in the eyes of the apathetic middle as a bunch of religious nuts who have no regard for the law.

I sure as hell hope so, on all counts. No sanction is too severe for this embarrassing idiot. Also someone should drop that block from a great height on Coral Ridge Ministries' legal department.

[hezekiah jones]

Originally posted by Stephen Maturin
I'm past caring about any negative publicity this sort of thing might generate. That's always been there and probably always will be, at least during my lifetime.

No kidding. Who cares about "bad press." Fuck this guy. He did this deliberately and has probably violated every official oath he's taken.

[Sabine Grant]

Bonsoir all...... It is amazing to me how a man whose position is to uphold the law ends up breaking it with arrogance and pride.

Moreso, as much as he wills to display a so called symbol of God's authority over the laws of the land, he defies that very authority by violating two ordinances prescribed in Romans 13 and 1 Peter. ( both expressing the obligation for christians to submit to the government) Quite a contradiction coming from Moore who swears allegiance to "God's Word".
As far as the misguided folks who trespassed voluntarly, their time would have been more valuable to "serve God" volunteering in a soup kitchen.
I wonder who will pick up the tab to pay for removing that block of stone.

[Sabine Grant]

Originally posted by Gravity
You guys do know this is not a good thing, I mean for atheists, right?

There is no good reason why Alabama shouldn't be able to decorate its court and state houses with religous paraphernalia.

Really, this shouldn't have gotten as far as this has. It should have been dropped. Going through the courts like this to enforce secularism is not helping.

Bonsoir Gravity..... there are many good reasons as to why the display of religious symbols in public function and government buildings needs to be restricted. Those buildings cannot be used to promote one religion or the other because this nation is a pluralistic democratic republic. The government and its agents are to represent and serve all americans,not one specific group of individuals. That is the principle which supports the Separation of Church and state.

Another good reason is that for those (such as myself) who call themselves christians, we ought to reflect on whether or not Christ encouraged displays of public piety. If we are going to follow the man, we might as well pay attention to what he taught. Public prayer ? not so encouraging.....statues and monuments erected in his name......? not so encouraging.

I am glad that the court system is available to solve such issues and insure that not one individual will use his or her position as a servant in the government to coherce, force, intimidate anyone into his or her own religious beliefs.
I would say that this ordeal is especialy not good for christians as we are again faced with our own unwillingness to show submission to human laws.
I would also add that I hope to see this judge resign from his position... I would fear he would push for legislations which would sentence to death .....homosexuals and witches.....( just a little poke at Bible literalists) I mean how trustworthy can he be at this point as he makes his own rules?

[Veovis]

I recently saw Moore being interviewed on MSNBC about his refusal to remove the monument. He basically spouted tripe about the establishment clause only pertains to Congress and he's a judge, so he's not 'establishing' religion by having the monument in his courthouse.

He aslo stated that he is given the right to acknowledge 'Almighty God' by the Alabama constitution. What he seems to forget is that the federal constitution, the constitution of the USA supercedes the constitution of any state because it's federal law. He also seems to forget that he was given a federal court order to have the monument removed. The taxpayers are going to get very angry once those fines start to accumulate.

I also had the displeasure of hearing Jerry Falwell speak for the first time. He was debating the 10 commandment monument issue with someone from Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, and let me tell you, Falwell is delusional! He still thinks "persons of faith" are the ones being persecuted.

Ugh..... I am really starting to lose faith in the people running my country.

Anyway...how's France this time of year?

[Sabine Grant]

hehehe.. since I live in Florida...quite tropical for now. I can tell you though that my mother is suffering thru that heat wave in Cannes. It is a tragedy that 300O people died from the consequences of that horrendous heat in France.

[Oresta]

hezakiah jones:
No kidding. Who cares about "bad press." Fuck this guy. He did this deliberately and has probably violated every official oath he's taken.

Wish I'd said that, but glad you did.:notworthy