A 6th Sense

[jupstin]

I've been reading a lot of science fiction lately, and it got me thinking about the senses. Aliens often have senses beyond the typical 5 human senses. Usually, the "extra" sense is what we commonly think of as a "6th sense:" i.e. an ability to communicate with the mind or to sense things with the mind. People seem generally able to understand this type of 6th sense on its own terms. No one I've talked to has trouble imagining how such a 6th sense might "work." But, try imagining a 6th sense that has nothing to do with the mind. I've been unable to come up with anything that can be described on its own terms. In other words, if I imagine a sense of Cheese, I really can't imagine how that sense might work, though I can imagine it in terms of a heightened sense of smell that is extra-sensitive to cheese. Another way to think about this is to try to describe sight to a blind person. You couldn't do it except by using analogies to the remaining four senses. I could say that a bright light is somewhat analagous to a loud noise or an intense heat, but I couldn't describe sight on its own terms. My first question is, can you think of any senses that can be understood on their own terms. My second question is, does our ability to understand what is commonly meant by a 6th sense on its own terms imply that there may actually be a 6th sense?

[Philosoft]

Originally posted by jupstin
My first question is, can you think of any senses that can be understood on their own terms.
Do you mean something that would be uniquely represented in the brain? There are many things we can't sense directly, like force particles - bosons, gluons, etc.
My second question is, does our ability to understand what is commonly meant by a 6th sense on its own terms imply that there may actually be a 6th sense?
I don't think so. Our ability to understand a concept is testament only to the specificity of language, and the ability of language-users to adequately convey what they mean. Your suggestion would have profound implications on the ways in which we construct inductive arguments, and perform scientific research, to say the least.

As an aside, this topic seems to have merit as philosophy and as science. Let me know if you think it needs to be moved.

[PTT]

I've never heard a sixth sense described in any way other than in terms of other senses. People talk of "second sight," for example. Other examples are in terms of ways we use other senses, such as telepathy (normally we communicate using sound or sight) or telekenesis - an ability to move objects, and therefore not a sense but an ability, and only able to be used effectively because one can sense the object to be moved.
Other animals do have a sixth sense - sharks or birds can detect the magnetic field of the earth, for example, and this is usually described as them being able to "see" the force lines.

Ta muchly

PTT

[tribalbeeyatch]

Originally posted by PTT
Other animals do have a sixth sense - sharks or birds can detect the magnetic field of the earth, for example, and this is usually described as them being able to "see" the force lines.And certain fishes and eels have electric organs that allow them to sense the electric fields produced by other aquatic animals, or even generate their own electric field and sense distortions in it that are produced by other animals or objects.

[Keith Russell]

Good afternoon:

We can easily imagine 'super-hero' powers that could be analagous to 'additional senses', that often have nothing to do with the customary 5 senses...

K

[jupstin]

Do you mean something that would be uniquely represented in the brain? There are many things we can't sense directly, like force particles - bosons, gluons, etc.

What I mean is that when we convey the intensity of a sound, we do so using the language of sound. We don't usually say that a sound is red or that it smells good. Of course, we can use terms like these, but each of our five senses has a unique language. If a person is born without one or more of the senses, than the language of that sense can never be fully grasped. They can try to understand the missing sense in terms of their available senses, but a person with no sense of touch can never comprehend hot directly. So, to actually answer your question, I was trying to ask if there was a sense other than the five senses that we could understand without using the language of our five senses.

Our ability to understand a concept is testament only to the specificity of language, and the ability of language-users to adequately convey what they mean.

What I'm trying to convey here is that, when it comes to a "6th" sense, the concept can be understood directly, without reference to other senses. I can pretty easily comprehend a sense that is an extension of thought. Perhaps I could apprehend another's thoughts, or I could sense the emotions of another person. It's different for other hypothetical senses. If someone proposed an electromagnetic sense, I couldn't imagine it on its own terms. I'd have to use the language of my other senses (most likely the language of my sense of touch.)


Your suggestion would have profound implications on the ways in which we construct inductive arguments, and perform scientific research, to say the least.

How so?

As an aside, this topic seems to have merit as philosophy and as science. Let me know if you think it needs to be moved.

I see what you mean. If you think it may be better suited in that forum, feel free.
Do you mean something that would be uniquely represented in the brain? There are many things we can't sense directly, like force particles - bosons, gluons, etc.

[jupstin]

I've never heard a sixth sense described in any way other than in terms of other senses. People talk of "second sight," for example.

But what about apprehended the understanding of another person. This would not be analagous to speech because the mind seems able to understand a thing in a non-linear way. A practical example is when you suddenly understand a previously difficult concept. Without thinking in a linear, speech-like way, you suddenly have a felling of understanding. I'm not saying that we are able to sense this kind of understanding in another person, I'm saying that we can understand what thay might be like without haveing to resort to the language of the five senses.

Other animals do have a sixth sense - sharks or birds can detect the magnetic field of the earth, for example, and this is usually described as them being able to "see" the force lines.


That's exactly my point. We can't possible comprehend what it would be like to have a sense like that, so we resort to the language of the five senses. But, we don't have to resort to that language when it comes to a 6th sense.

[jupstin]

We can easily imagine 'super-hero' powers that could be analagous to 'additional senses', that often have nothing to do with the customary 5 senses...

Could you give a few examples? A "super-hero" power has never seemed like a sense to me, but maybe I just looked at it the wrong way.

[student738]

jupstin said:
"It's different for other hypothetical senses. If someone proposed an electromagnetic sense, I couldn't imagine it on its own terms. I'd have to use the language of my other senses (most likely the language of my sense of touch.)"
I believe that something simple is being missed here. Perhaps we should first turn to how it is that we come to use language to provide accounts of sense experiences.

How is it that a child learns to provide an account of the experience of hotness by exclaiming, "Hot!"? Perhaps by a mother repeatedly pointing to a stove, and saying, "Hot". As well as by the child then touching the stove when his or her mother is away, and associating the distinct change in sensory experience with the touching of the stove, and eventually with the stove itself, and with other objects which produce similar sensory experiences.

Now, suppose that we place a wire protruding from your head, on the one end having a device capable of sensing differences in air pressure, and on the other end, within your head, electrodes to directly stimulate certain portions of your brain.

Now, having done this, suppose that we put you in a sealed chamber capable of producing varying internal air pressures. When the air pressure goes up, we will chime into the chamber, "Zoot!". When the air pressure goes down, we will chime into the chamger, Zaught!". We do this repeatedly, and soon you have learned to associate the particular experience of direct brain stimulation produced from increased air pressure as "Zoot" (the environment is "Zootier"), and the particular experience of direct brain stimulation produced from decreased air pressure as "Zaught" (the environment is "Zaughtier").

As you are right now though, do you have any sense of what it is to describe an increase or decrease in air pressure? Not having lived at high elevations myself, I don't know that I do.

Also, perhaps the old grade school science curiosity of tasting different foods with your nose plugged has some relevance? As I recall, there's something to that, yes?

[orpheus last chant]

. Aliens often have senses beyond the typical 5 human senses.


I suppose you are reffering to a hypothetical situation right, although I do not understand why you say "aliens OFTEN ...."


Usually, the "extra" sense is what we commonly think of as a "6th sense:" i.e. an ability to communicate with the mind or to sense things with the mind.



An ability to comunicate with the mind would not be a sense. And the ability to sense things with the mind we all have, by our receptive sensors - ear retina etc connected via nerves... directly we do not.


But, try imagining a 6th sense that has nothing to do with the mind.


That wouldn't be possible. For your sense to have a purpose (As in give you information about the outside world) it would have to be decoded and brought into conscience - that's what teh mind does.
Imagine you are paralised from your neck down. Your skin still detects heat, pressure, but the message does not reach the brain. so you do not "feel" it.



What I'm trying to convey here is that, when it comes to a "6th" sense, the concept can be understood directly, without reference to other senses. I can pretty easily comprehend a sense that is an extension of thought. Perhaps I could apprehend another's thoughts, or I could sense the emotions of another person. It's different for other hypothetical senses. If someone proposed an electromagnetic sense, I couldn't imagine it on its own terms. I'd have to use the language of my other senses (most likely the language of my sense of touch.)


I do not know if anyone can understand directly. Often we have the feeling of understading regarding impossible or confuse terms like God. Yet there is no definition yet, it is more the emotional response that gives it the sensation of understanding.

The same way you cannot imagine what would it feel like sensing electromagnetism I doubt one can imagine reading somebody's thoughts.
Considering that your conscience stream involves thoughts, perceptions and action commands, emotions, memories. Imagine reading somebody's though of typing this sentence, or somebody realising that his bladder is full.

[Blake]

Maybe it would help in the effort to imagine "sixth senses" that we don't have if we consider some of the ones that we do have. Our sense of proprioception is so close to us that we basically just "know" where any given body part is at any given moment; our sense of balance based on our semi-circular tubes tells us what direction we need to move if we want to re-orient ourselves vertically. Maybe if an alien species had the ability to detect electromagnetism, it would be mediated through an organ so closely embedded in the brain that rather than manifested as something similar to sight, touch, or hearing, the species would "just know" that in this direction is a source about so strong, in that other direction a little further away a somewhat weaker source, etc. I definitely imagine any ability to sense another person's thoughts in terms unencumbered by accompanying sense-data (except, of course, any that might be inherent in specific thoughts).

[jupstin]

How is it that a child learns to provide an account of the experience of hotness by exclaiming, "Hot!"? Perhaps by a mother repeatedly pointing to a stove, and saying, "Hot". As well as by the child then touching the stove when his or her mother is away, and associating the distinct change in sensory experience with the touching of the stove, and eventually with the stove itself, and with other objects which produce similar sensory experiences.

Of course, the terms that we use to describe sense experience are taught, but the feelings themselves are not taught. A child who had no contact with language would still avoid extremes of temperature

The concept of an air-pressure sense can't really be understood. You use words like "zoot" and "zaught," cool words, by the way, but you haven't really conveyed the "sense" of the sense. My guess is that we are only able of understanding an air-pressure sense in terms of the forces that changes in pressure exert on our body. Of course, this kind of language would not be appropriate to a true sense of air pressure, and that's what I was trying to say in the first place: hypothetical senses can only be described using the language of our existing senses.

Also, perhaps the old grade school science curiosity of tasting different foods with your nose plugged has some relevance? As I recall, there's something to that, yes?

There is a definite link between smell and taste, and it's because of this link that most people understand a synaesthetic statement like, "Lemon candy tastes like the smell of pine sol." But, I don't see what this has to do with the existence of a 6th sense.

[jupstin]

I suppose you are reffering to a hypothetical situation right, although I do not understand why you say "aliens OFTEN ...."

Definitely hypothetical. The aliens sentence directly followed the sentence about how I've been reading a lot of Science Fiction lately.

An ability to comunicate with the mind would not be a sense. And the ability to sense things with the mind we all have, by our receptive sensors - ear retina etc connected via nerves... directly we do not.

That wouldn't be possible. For your sense to have a purpose (As in give you information about the outside world) it would have to be decoded and brought into conscience - that's what teh mind does.

I think you may be taking me too literally here. I know that the brain decodes all sense information; I didn't mean to imply that the five senses are somehow independent of the brain. What I'm trying to say is that I think most people can imagine what it would be like to have a 6th sense without having to use the language of the other senses.



Are you saying that all thoughts can be accurately conveyed using the language of the five senses? You may be right, and it may be that when we have that sense of understanding something, it's a bit misleading.

[quote]The same way you cannot imagine what would it feel like sensing electromagnetism I doubt one can imagine reading somebody's thoughts.
Considering that your conscience stream involves thoughts, perceptions and action commands, emotions, memories. Imagine reading somebody's though of typing this sentence, or somebody realising that his bladder is full.

It just doesn't seem that hard for me to imagine. Maybe I'm just crazy.

[student738]

jupstin said:
"...hypothetical senses can only be described using the language of our existing senses."
I believe my point is that there is nothing unexpected about this. For if any two of us in fact had one of these now hypothetical senses, we would be perfectly capable of conveying it to one another on its own terms.

Perhaps we are not speaking of the same thing?

When I exclaim, "I am experiencing a smell like rotten eggs", as I inhale the fumes of spent black powder, and you have previously experienced a smell like rotten eggs, haven't I successfully conveyed to you the experience of smelling (sensing) spent black powder "on its own terms", i.e. in the language of the sense of smell?

What is "the language of the sense of smell" but terms commonly associated with what we take to shared experiences of the sense of smell?

"You use words like "zoot" and "zaught," cool words, by the way, but you haven't really conveyed the "sense" of the sense."
I agree, I have not conveyed the sense experience to you.

But what I mean to say is, if you and I both had such a sense, we would be perfectly capable of conveying the sense to one another on its own terms, and the language of "zoot" and "zaught" as employed in the scenario I described is a plausible way this may occur.

I would say that you are correct, if you and I have not both had the same experience (or perhaps had a false memory of having had experienced it placed into your brain), then I can not successfully convey this experience to you except in terms of other experiences.

And so, to answer your second question, it seems to me, yes, if we can successfully convey to one another a 6th sense on its own terms, it is only because we both have such a sense.