My dad has finally flipped out.

[Ennazus]

First let me give a brief description of my father's political views. He is a Fox News viewing, liberal-bashing Bush -lover, to put it mildly. I actually think if Bush took a televised crap on the presidential podium, my dad would say Bush had nothing to do with it. The liberals must have caused the shit.

We happened to be over at my parents home todaywhen a news segment about Judge Moore came on. My dad went on and on about how he shouldn't have been suspended. I said "You're right, he should be removed from the bench completely."

My dad completely lost his mind. He went on about our nation being founded UNDER GOD. (yes, he was shouting) OUr money says IN GOD WE TRUST (Pounding his fists together as he said this) He was literally raving mad. I tried my best with the McCarthy era info to educate the man, but he just would not listen to me.

This is a man who, as far as I've known for my whole life, has been to churches for funerals and weddings only. (I am 37 years old) He and my mother were both raised Catholic, but they rejected all of that crap. I have considered him agnostic, but admit I never knew for sure. My mom is an atheist (or so she has claimed to me) , but didn't say a word to support me. She sat there like a stone. (Luckily my also-wacky Catholic Grandma was out on the patio for the tirade--I would have been really out-gunned)

Why would a man who has held religion in contempt for most of his life stand there and defend this judge? And the judge's insane crap? Why preach about "Under God" to an atheist daughter? What topped it off and sent me home red-faced and crying was the "Don't like it? Leave!" Comment. I don't know if our relationship will survive, the way he talked to me. Sorry for going on and on. Maybe sombody here can make sense of this craziness. Thank you.

[Viti]

There isn't sense to be made unfortunately. I am sorry you have to go through this...some people have deeply felt opinions that they don't talk about much, then one comment or situation and they blow. My mother in law did this with homosexuality and I was floored.

I wish I had comforting words, but I don't.

[Buddrow_Wilson]

I think you should try to talk to your mom about this event, if you haven't already.

[The Other Michael]

That sounds like another example of why we should get to pick our relatives. :(

It appears that you probably should have expected some sort of an argument, considering his right-wing attitudes, but probably not a complete flip-out. Even if he's not that religious, he's probably bought into the right-wing interpretation of the Constitution (and the evil liberal activist judges who are out to subvert it), and if that is the case he can probably see Moore as being a victim of liberal action based on his "upholding" of the Constitution, rather than because he was being a religious nincompoop.

How close are you to him (and vice versa)? Will it be very painful for you to avoid each other for at least the near future? Is there a chance your mother can act as a go-between?

He seems to be the one who owes you an apology based on what you told us. If it was me I think I'd let the first move be up to him - your staying away is complying with his express wishes, so if he wants you back, he needs to tell you so.

I hope you can salvage the rest of the weekend after this.

good luck,
Michael

[Ennazus]

I haven't talked to my mother yet. She definitely avoids confrontation, so I was not surprised she didn't intervene. I have broken up many fights between my Grandmother and 15-year-old daughter, while my mother just stood by. Funnily enough, my daughter was on the patio having a civil conversation with Granny while Dad was yelling at me. (She would have come in and let him have it, if she had known. she's become quite the activist in the past 6 months or so.)


Sometimes I wonder if I am close to either of my parents. Do I just see them, because I live nearby? (Or because they need occasional Granny-sitting?) I turn to my husband, daughter and friends for things--not to my parents. My dad and his politics have always made me crazy, but until today I've been able to ignore him or humor him. I am proud of the way I handled myself today and that I held the tears back until we were out of sight of their house.

As I sit here writing this, I feel like I don't want to see either of them. If I see their name on the caller ID, I will not answer the phone. That's where I am right now.

Thank you.

[Ennazus]

It appears that you probably should have expected some sort of an argument, considering his right-wing attitudes, but probably not a complete flip-out. Even if he's not that religious, he's probably bought into the right-wing interpretation of the Constitution (and the evil liberal activist judges who are out to subvert it), and if that is the case he can probably see Moore as being a victim of liberal action based on his "upholding" of the Constitution, rather than because he was being a religious nincompoop.

I didn't think of it this way. I assumed the religious angle and that confused me, but you're probably right. His right-wing mindset definitely would explain the explosive reaction--I dared to side with liberals and he popped.

[The Other Michael]

I think not talking with them for a day or three may be a reasonable course of action, just so everyone hopefully has a chance to cool down and let communication take place when you do talk.

Trying to talk while everyone is still upset might result in even more things being said that might be regretted.

cheers,
Michael

[sodium]

If your father thought he was Napoleon, and became enraged if anyone questioned it, you'd probably just avoid discussing the issue. That's the attitude that I think has to be adopted for dealing with religious convictions much of the time.

To me, your father sounds a lot like some people I've known. They aren't particularly religious, but see church/state separation as part of a more general tendency. That of some minority saying that society has to do something different out of tolerance, or non-discrimination. Why do we always have to change, they say? Why don't they change? Why are we always forced to adapt to some tiny whining group? We were here first. This is America, get used to it!

This attitude can sometimes cause a person to defend things they otherwise wouldn't. For example, does your father take the name of the lord God in vain? Does he keep the Sabbath Holy? Does he want a government official to erect a huge monument, declaring that people should follow these rules, and more? Does he like government officials to give him advice on how to live his life? Is it the governments business if he honours his mother and father? Does he want to pay for monuments of this kind with his tax dollars?

But anyway, it's probably better not to bring it up.

[Suaup]

Suzanne, what he did was out of line - though people say things they don't mean when they're angry, he basically treated you as just another scum-bag liberal who is against this country. The problem is the halo effect in communication. He has such a negative stereotype of liberals from FOX news that when he sees you as interjecting one comment associated with liberals, he automatically associates you with the hundreds of other common stereotypical liberal attitudes. For example, if you're against the judge, then you're probably also against the war, against President Bush, anti-American, in support of Saddam Hussein, in support of terrorism, a flaming hippie, etc. Even though he very well knows these aren't all true about you, it still saturates his mind in the heat of an argument.

There's no excusing what he told you to leave if you didn't like it. You are an American and his daughter. By saying that, even in the heat of an argument (like he will later claim to justify his words) he was essentially telling you that he values his stereotypical politics more than his relationship with you as his daughter. Even my Dad massively disagrees with my politics (he's also a FOX watching Bush supporter) but the extent of his arguments when he loses a debate is to just start saying "You're wrong, wrong wrong wrong" and walk away. He wouldn't cross the line your father did.

I'd be hesitant to even accept an apology till you feel your father truly understands the extent of what he did - and is not just apologizing to give lipservice because it's his "responsibility" as your father. You have your own life, and I know this may seem harsh, but the burden is on him to earn your interest back in being around him. He crossed the line in my opinion, and if it was my father, I would not have any interest in either speaking with him, or spending time with him for at least a couple months. When I got a sincere and true apology and knew he understood what he said, I'd accept it.

[Defiant Heretic]

I think you should collect all the data needed to prove that the country wasn't founded "under God". Find some of the writings of Jefferson and Paine, including the Establishment Clause and anything related to it. Find the data regarding McCarthyism and how it related to the addition of "Under God" and "In God we Trust". Find Christian teachings that directly contradict the constitution. (1st Commandment, etc).

Then if you can, explain it to him using those notes, and if not, just give him the writeup. Maybe start out by mentioning that if he's right, the data can't go against him. Of course, it'll be best if he'll be rational, but if he's going to get emotional about the whole thing, try to appeal to his pride.

[The Other Michael]

There is the possibility that might make him even harder to deal with. It seems to be human nature at times to get really rigid when you know you're in a losing battle.

If you try to do something with your father, see if you can avoid backing him into a corner. Give him a graceful exit and maybe he'll take it. Knocking him down and rubbing his nose in it is likely to strain matters even more.

cheers,
Michael

[Ennazus]

Thanks everybody. Neither of my parents called, so I haven't had to try or say anything.

For example, if you're against the judge, then you're probably also against the war, against President Bush, anti-American, in support of Saddam Hussein, in support of terrorism, a flaming hippie, etc. Even though he very well knows these aren't all true about you, it still saturates his mind in the heat of an argument.

Suaup, you must know my dad! :) Truth be told (not to him), I am against the war and am no Bush fan.

I don't think I'll get an apology from my dad. If he calls, he'll expect a retraction or apology from me. I was verbally attacked for the heinous crime of expressing an opinion and he'll get no apology from me.

I appreciate everybody's advice and support. Thank you again.

[Darwin26]

Dear Suzanne, i suspect there is more here than meets the eye. For one it seems your father (dad or father: big difference) is a Rageaholic. With serious Passive Aggressive issues. The fact that he's a fascist pig is only an aspect of the picture.

This isn't about weither you need him/them but about you cutting the apron strings... i say this because of his/her total lack of respect for you as a human being. The Tirade speaks volumns... As well one does not have to go to church to be Self Righteous... most feel they've been annointed by gawd anyhow, to bring vengence on the slimmy liberals.

I hope for you to find the strength if even one minute at a time to clearly reject their self absorbed behavior. I'm sure if this was a perfect stranger acting as such ...you and daughter would have fled the scene.

i have major big KUDOS for you ... takes courage, and a strong sense of self to stand up to bullies ... cowering and flight are negative in somany ways. You stood your ground... there are many of us in this "foxhole" with you ... i suppose a nice bit of artillary in the future is if an when the father calls... bring up gay marriage or Al FRanken... Keep your sense of Humor

You will find lots of us who's father thought Attila the Hun was a Flammming Liberal... who's so called wife looked the other way at all the abuse....

You are FREE now
Choose loving and respectful friends.
As for the "G'ma thing ...you make the rules" you are a woman of the world... not his doormat.

[beth]

Originally posted by The Other Michael
There is the possibility that might make him even harder to deal with. It seems to be human nature at times to get really rigid when you know you're in a losing battle.

If you try to do something with your father, see if you can avoid backing him into a corner. Give him a graceful exit and maybe he'll take it. Knocking him down and rubbing his nose in it is likely to strain matters even more.

cheers,
Michael I agree with Michael. Trying to prove yourself won't get anywhere, more than likely. Perhaps you should stay away for a little while just to simmer down. You may want to tell him how hurt you were at the end of the conversation once everyone is calmer, or you may just want to drop it altogether.

My husband's grandfather is like this. He is a racist and hates long haired hippies. He even gripes about women having bangs. Usually we humor him, but when he offends, I step in and ask him if this is how he wishes to be remembered when he's gone. (he has cancer) It usually shuts him up and he is nicer. When we invite black friends over for family gatherings, we put him under the threat of death(not literally) to keep his mouth shut and to not be an ass. Perhaps your father is an onery ole cuss like him.

[Richard1366]

After a couple of days for cooling down, you might tell your father that if making your views known upsets him so, then you'll refrain from having that type of conversation with him in the future, and won't bother from now on to ask for his advice or opinions.
Chances are he will back down and apologize for his outburst.

You might give him a copy of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, since these document are what our fore-fathers built this nation on after they had declared their independence from England. Tell him that the only references to religion you could find in these documents were in Article VI of the Constitution which forbid any religious test for office and in Article I of the Bill of Rights forbidding any law respecting an establishment of religion. Stylistically, a reference was also made to the "Year of our Lord." Ask him if he could show you anyplace where reference to any of the 10 commandments was made.

It seems as if our founding fathers went out of their way to completely separate the activities of government from any type of religious activity or observances.

[ohwilleke]

Sounds like you have learned something about your dad's religious beliefs.

Most likely he has been infected with the protestant bent of the right wing, to go from being a Catholic to a closet protestant.

[Ennazus]

Most likely he has been infected with the protestant bent of the right wing, to go from being a Catholic to a closet protestant

Ugh... Infected with protestant right-wingism? Sounds serious, I imagine it's incurable.

I haven't spoken to either of them, since the incident.

[Darwin26]

...a lot can be said for Time and Space... the antidote for Misanthropes....and terminal virulent republicans.

[Shake]

Here is something from Beliefnet (http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset.asp?pageLoc=/story/131/story_13133_1.html&storyID=13133&boardID=62842) with some good quotes and such. Attorney General Bill Pryor had this to say:"Although I continue to believe that the Ten Commandments are the cornerstone of our legal heritage and can be displayed constitutionally as they are in the building of the Supreme Court of the United States, this controversy is no longer one involving a debate in the federal courts," he said. "The Supreme Court of Alabama has now spoken and ordered compliance with the federal injunction."Part of the point being made is that Justice Moore must, like any other citizen, obey the rulings of the federal government. He cannot pick and choose which rulings he will or will not obey. If after the order he felt he could not comply, he should have resigned his post as justice and taken the matter up as a private citizen.

[Zora]

This is a terribly tough situation. I feel badly for you, and hope it will work out.

I had a similar experience with my Dad...not over politics or religion, but the reaction was the same. We were visiting, he blew up and became verbally abusive toward me. Mom didn't say a word, as was her usual response.

We packed up and left, but before we did, I told Mom privately that I would never be back. I didn't deserve to be treated in that manner, and I wasn't going to stand for it.

After we left, she told Dad he was not going to keep her from seeing her children and grandchildren..and that if he could not behave in a civil manner, she would visit us without him. She told him I was never coming back, and he had himself to blame. (She told me this on the phone a couple days after we left.)

He never apologized, but she called and said he said he perhaps had over-reacted. He never did apologize, but he never again became hostile in a disagreement and even made some attempts to show that he "might" be wrong about a few of his views.

If he hadn't extended this wilted olive branch, I would probably NOT have gone back, ever. If your parents love their grandchild, and I bet they do, I think this will blow over. Best wishes.

[Trecker]

Originally posted by Suzanne**Atheist
Ugh... Infected with protestant right-wingism? Sounds serious, I imagine it's incurable.

I haven't spoken to either of them, since the incident.

You have described a very difficult problem. How you handle it will also effect your daughter. Sounds like you have pretty good control of the situation and need only to follow your heart. You may be well onto something regarding the "infected" issue. Sometimes there is a physical illness present that clouds people's ability to think properly. This was definitely true of my own father's interpersonal dealings when he was diagnosed with M.S. Perhaps your father is physically ill and you do not know yet? These are also very scarey times for everyone in the world. We have a wacko as a leader that almost half of the electorate voted into office and more than half have supported. George Bush is actually the cause of much of the resentment that is expressed (exploded) against the United States throughout the world. Bush has totally blown so many chances where he actually could have made a difference to lessen the problems of the world.

Whatever you do with your father, mother, and grandmother; do your best to maintain your integrity. For whatever reason, you're the only adult here. Even though you may be desperately searching for that missing bit of love or permission that you never got ( as almost everyone does even in their adulthood around their parents ), keep your eyes on the prize.... your intergity.

[Captain Howdy]

Maybe your father is just irrepairably damaged by ....err... himself i guess

[Ennazus]

I have an update of sorts. My mother called to invite us to her BBQ on Monday. The conversation went like this:


Mom: Dad is willing to see you on Monday, if you keep your controversial opinions to yourself.

Me: He's willing to see me? What does that mean?

Mom: He wants to see you, but doesn't want you to give your opinions.

Me: So, I have to keep my mouth shut to be welcome in your home?

Mom: No, just don't say anything to make your dad angry. That's all.

Me: How do I do that? He blew up over a little opinion last week.

Mom: You knew that would make him mad. You're always saying things about President Bush.

Me: I didn't say anything about President Bush! We were talking about the judge!

Mom: Well, it's the same thing.

Me: OK mom. I don't think I can make it, but Tanya (daughter) wants to stop by.

Mom: Bye

I just can't win and there's no use in trying, is there?

[Darwin26]

you'll not be his whipping boy/girl

if you went with stapled lips ...you would have been egged

You're a beacon of light to your daughter and a hero to us.

...the solution: neutral ground like a restaruant. ...Don't go to places with bad or unhealthy possibilities ...that would include the edifice where the parents reside.

This might not be easy or "what your vision of life with M/D" would be like... Be glad you're not still under that tyrant and his puppet.

It's not about "winning" its about "healthy" and avoiding rattlesnakes. i don't mean avoiding conflict or fire ... you have obviously a strong constitution ... but love, your love and integrity mean more than swapping glances with arch enemies.

Many of us have the "hole" that longs to be filled...the "hole of approval" well M/D are never gonna give it ..EVER...you must give it to yourself ...and it appears you are doing just that.

Proud to be on the same board with you Suzanne.

[ooh_child]

Dear Suzanne & Tanya,

First, to Suzanne:

You're father should be the one to extend any offer of acceptence to you. He accepted all responsibilty for you WAY BACK THEN. To make your mother the "go-between" for this holiday is way below trash.

Call your mom and ask to speak to him so that your family will know that they are welcome for the BBQ. BBQ's are for fun time, no need to discuss things that might be dicey. But, an off-hand comment about personal feelings can and SHOULD be disregarded by ANYONE who finds them abrasive. Your dad has to be made aware of this fact. Obviously, you are already aware of this fact.

You will win if you have love for your family, your dad loves you, and tact regarding the situation. I think all of that is true.

To Tanya,

I don't know how old you are, but I do know all of your family loves you. If you must attend this BBQ w/out your mom, my advice is to enjoy the company, accept the love, and love back. Don't let anyone try to discuss your mom's absence. She is not there. You are.

I hope that between now & then things will change so that you both can attend.

My last comment-food rules! Let's all eat like pigs on Labor Day!

MHB

[Anti-Creedance Front]

Sometimes I wonder how a father and child can grow so far apart. This is kind of alarming to hear, considering my grandparents are very religious, but they're liberal and either stay quiet or agree with me when religious issues come up in the news. And we also don't have any fundies in our family. So the question posed here is the one from Planescape Torment... What can change the nature of a man?

Could it be Fox News' skewed vision of reality?

[Trecker]

Originally posted by Anti-Creedance Front
Sometimes I wonder how a father and child can grow so far apart. This is kind of alarming to hear, considering my grandparents are very religious, but they're liberal and either stay quiet or agree with me when religious issues come up in the news. And we also don't have any fundies in our family. So the question posed here is the one from Planescape Torment... What can change the nature of a man?

Could it be Fox News' skewed vision of reality?

I very much doubt that the news ultimately does much to influence the choice of free thought vs loop thinking. Perhaps there is a general angle which the news may skew the non-thinking person towards, but the basic atheism/free thought which I see mostly practiced on this board is not the kind of conviction which is swayed by fashion and pluralities.

I admit that there are some atheists that do not exactly "get it". Their commitment has less to do with logic and understanding of the unobvious factors of decision making. Discovering about just how far we are all away from knowing true "reality" is what life is all about for me. This is the only place from which I think we can begin to make sense out of the world. Once anyone actually has this understanding, it is not something that can easily be influenced by the news or even the cognitive dissonance of overwhelming volumes of hocus-pocus religious thinking.

If an intelligent person is influenced by the nightly news, it is only because that person is wanting their conclusion to be so. The want is related to their overwhelming desire to fill the painful void within themselves.

So to answer the straight-forward question, "What can change the nature of a man?" is that the neo-fundies never really understood how little "reality" they actually could see. They were still caught up in loop thinking..........albeit a more benign "liberal" loop thinking, but still loop thinking.

[Darwin26]

..."dad" did not just get this misanthropic, fear of loosing what he has, fear of not getting what HE wants by watching Faux news.
He has always been this petty bully; With a vacuous disdain if not hate, where compassion should be...

...and he resents the strength of his daughter... she has a compassion and connection to humanity that makes him go into brutal convulgions...

Any man and he is not, would be able to carry on a conversation applying principles and ideas not "dad" weak, and offensive... never give this man a sword.

It's not about what he saw on TV.
And it is pure magical thinking ...if you think this brute can be reasoned with...he gets off on his rage...and it's triggered by his infantile fears ...

Solutions: stay away, but if in confrontation: blow him off the map ... he's a pure coward... and only understands a bigger force or more money.

[Godless Dave]

So "controversial opinion" = anything your dad doesn't agree with. Nice.

I can't recommend a course of action. My aunt is like your dad, except that her husband doesn't cover for her. My family deals with it by not discussing anything to do with religion, politics, or homosexuality around her.

You might consider writing a letter to both your parents, telling them you are sorry they feel that your dad is entitled to have opinions but you are not, and thanking them for demonstrating to you how NOT to raise your daughter.

[Trecker]

Originally posted by Darwin26
..."dad" did not just get this misanthropic, fear of loosing what he has, fear of not getting what HE wants by watching Faux news.
He has always been this petty bully; With a vacuous disdain if not hate, where compassion should be...

...and he resents the strength of his daughter... she has a compassion and connection to humanity that makes him go into brutal convulgions...

Any man and he is not, would be able to carry on a conversation applying principles and ideas not "dad" weak, and offensive... never give this man a sword.

It's not about what he saw on TV.
And it is pure magical thinking ...if you think this brute can be reasoned with...he gets off on his rage...and it's triggered by his infantile fears ...

Solutions: stay away, but if in confrontation: blow him off the map ... he's a pure coward... and only understands a bigger force or more money.

Darwin26, I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, as I usually seem to do. But I think it is important to understand that we only get one set of biological parents. They will probably always be important in our psychic life, long after they are gone from this earth. There are so many emotions we all have tied to these people.

Family is where we must make reasonable compromises. When the angry father begins to soften his off-the wall dogma-tirades, and he will if he is any kind of man at all, it is a good idea to acknowledge this.

Family is a value of mine. While I do not advocate the loss of one's integrity, I think there is much benefit to preserving the relationships. Interacting with my family has enormously helped me to understand who I am today. I think we have to tolerate some discomfort in order to use this resource, just by its very nature. In this case, (and as it has proven in my own case) I think everyone is better off if the bonds are not entirely severed.

[Darwin26]

Trecker, and the for the most part, and for the better part i agree with you .

i think a portion of the problem/issue is the old adage

"Blood is thicker than water" ... many folks would harbor a fugitive relative ... weither it be child molester or loan shark... and here we have a case of "mom" harboring a bully. Now Suzanne really hasn't given much if any background ...i have assumed...judging from the tyranical despot tirade... Now i'm sure this is not the exception to the rule But DANCE AROUND THE DESPOT RULE.

...and from what i see the RULE has been put forth ...she can eat her integrity and be a miserable fool at the hands of this child basher... (he clearly can not deal on adult levels) and for sure the rug will come out as the rules change ... Bush/Religion it's all the same... i doubt Suzanne can even discuss the weather without upsetting the apple cart..

now to my point: Better that she make the decisions for her life/mental health and accept the consequences of that which will never be forth coming Than to compromise her integrity and give the allusion it's ok to bully..

It would be nice and it still may be if she could visit for a few minutes, or in a neutral area but a bully is always a bully...if not he will go off and sulk...and of course wify will be in the middle where she likes to be and really in control by her Submissive SUBJUGATION... the mom is a major part of this ... so it's not just the male despot... mom has her stealthy way of keeping the world running around her.

If Suzanne can find away great but Better to Quench your thirst for love and understanding with wholesum Water than Toxic Blood.

[Zora]

It sounds like there must have been some discussion between Mom and Dad on the subject. That's a good thing.

Perhaps you (the "good daughter") are supposed to cave in since he has made this concession of allowing you to attend if you keep quiet. Its a first step, and if you stand firm, he may realize he has to meet you half way.

(Gosh, makes me nostalgic for the good old days when EVERY large family BBQ ended up with somebody arguing with somebody else over something and not speaking for months. The "keep quiet" matra was repeated in every household prior to the event, and it never worked!) Chin up, Suzanne. It will blow over.

[Ennazus]

Whew, I missed a lot by not checking in earlier! I so enjoy reading everybody's posts.


I really didn't give much background info I suppose. For the most part, I can and have ignored and humored my father's ignorant comments. When he bad mouths democrats or liberals, spews Rush Limbaugh or O'Reilly factor crap... I ignore him and sometimes I feel sorry for him. Sorry mostly that he let himself become brainwashed by a few idiots on TV. Having kept my mouth shut (for the most part) in the past, I apparently avoided a lot of mess.

When I made the comment about removing the judge from the bench and dad exploded, I was stunned. He had never spoken to me this way before and certainly never told me to leave his home. In the past, if I let a comment slip about President Bush, he'd say something like.. "Watch it, that's the President you're talking about" or "You should be grateful it isn't Gore in there" or my favorite, "I suppose Slick Willie was better than Bush?" The way my dad's eyes light up when he talks about President Bush is truly frightening.

As Godless Dave has noted, everything my dad doesn't agree with IS controversial or just plain wrong. My dad is always right. It could be a subject about which he knows absolutely nothing , but if he makes a comment... it's correct. The subject could be the best kind of ketchup to use and my dad will be right. You use Mr. Clean on your floors, well Spic and Span is better... so dad says.

Now that this all has happened, I am afraid it makes me want to express my opinions about EVERYTHING! I KNOW I could not keep my mouth shut tomorrow, I feel it. I guess it is a challenge now, so I am going to stay away.

I don't want to sever ties with my parents, even though they make me crazy and remind me of Archie and Edith Bunker. But things won't be the same between us, that's for sure. My mother wants me to come over and play nice and my dad wants to glare and test my stapled lips. Ain't gonna happen.

My lovely almost-16 year old, outspoken, recently-outed atheist daughter will have a good time teasing her younger cousins and eating potato salad. If anybody wants to talk about me and she has an opinion on the matter, I know she'll express it. Well, she'll be expressing it anyway when she brings the frisbees in her ACLU totebag. HA! I couldn't stop her if I tried. So, my daughter will not be like her doormat grandmother or semi-doormat mother, that's for sure.

My husband just thinks we are all nuts. He and I are going to stay home and enjoy our own slab of ribs tomorrow and listen for raised voices from 5 blocks away!


I thank each and every one of you for your advice and comments. I have certainly found a wonderful support network here at II.

[The Other Michael]

I thank each and every one of you for your advice and comments. I have certainly found a wonderful support network here at II.

Hi Suzanne,

I bet you could probably get a Chicago-area Infidel Gathering (TM) going if you wanted to meet up with some of your support network. Bring the daughter too - they're fun for the whole family!

I was pretty surprised when I was back visiting relatives a couple of years ago and somehow the subject of interracial marriages came up. I mentioned that it didn't bother me, and an uncle really surprised me by saying that it sure bothered him.

I think it is important to remain aware of the things that might be influencing people's reactions. My uncle (should be about 75 now) grew up in rural (poor) Oklahoma, and if I keep that in mind his reaction really isn't surprising. I might hope for better, but I can understand things. Could there be similar factors influencing your father?

cheers,
Michael

[Darwin26]

...prime time with hubby! 'n ribs !!! you can give each other all the lip in the world...

Suzanne, my dad was the same brittle brutal know it all. Same brown shirt mentality... same fearful...right to the ashcan.


Have a great Labor Day

and thanks for sharing

[DMB]

Suzanne: I really sympathise with you. Family rows like this tear one apart. When crap is spewing from close family members it's not the same as when it's coming from someone else.

At 63, I imagine I am probably from the same generation as your parents. I know that in my lifetime I have seen enormous changes in the world I live in, materially and culturally, and sometimes it's a bit difficult to digest it all. If I am honest, I must say that there are plenty of things about modern life that I dislike, even though I feel that there have been many changes for the better. I suspect that anyone of my age will feel something along those lines.

I am also painfully aware that my time as an achieving, energetic, competent adult is slipping away and I have to come to terms with physical and mental decline. All this hardly sweetens the temper.

My own 89-year-old mother is much further along this route. She was born at the beginning of WW1 in a completely different society. She endured the fears, upheavals and privations of WW2 and its aftermath. Now she finds herself in a puzzling new century, full of technology that she can't get to grips with and people who mostly have no time for old gits.

As far as I know, she has always been racist and homophobic and I have fallen out with her many times over these issues. I have to acknowledge, however, that when she was a young woman, nearly everyone was racist, and the word "racist" hadn't been invented. Even when I was a young woman, homosexual activity was illegal in my country (the UK). So my mother hasn't changed; society has changed around her.

Over many years, we have finally agreed to disagree on these issues (religion doesn't come into it; she is an atheist), but she still embarrasses me because she thinks that I am the oddity and everyone else must surely agree with her anti-black and anti-gay attitudes, so she always makes outrageous remarks to my friends, who don't know where to look or how to respond.

In the end, what sort of compromise you might want to make with your father, if any, is up to you. He probably knows that he has behaved badly but can't face the loss of face involved in apologising. It would clearly be impossible for you to accept his "button-your-lip" proposal. But might it be possible to agree that there are topics that neither of you will bring up or comment on in the other's presence? Perhaps you could suggest this to your mother.

I wish you all the best in this difficult situation. I'm glad that you have such a strong, bright daughter.

[Proxima Centauri]

I agree with the Other Michael, DMB and others. Stay away till things have cooled down. People like your dad get some psychological kicks out of an argument. Staying away stops him getting what he, (and your mum) want. There's already one temptation to get back into it, that lovely bbq. Or perhaps they are sorry and want you back on their terms. They need you more than you need them, (grannysistting).
If mum wants you to grannysit consider suggesting they look for someone else unless dad is prepared to be more civil.
You probably won't get an apology but if you stay away for a few months dad will be less likely to reoffend. If dad reoffends stay away longer next time.

[RawData]

Your dad sounds much like my grandmother. They are RIGHT, period. I like Godless Dave's idea. Write them a letter. Ask him for a list of topics that you can't discuss with him. If he actually produces one, take it with you the next time you go there.

Alternately, have a shirt made with 'opinions', 'thinking', or 'speaking' with the universal NO symbol over it. Be sure to wear it in your dad's presence. Or maybe 'He is always RIGHT' with an arrow pointed to the right (be sure to stand on his left).

Just a couple of evil ideas.

RD:rolleyes:

[Harumi]

Suzanne,

Time will heal a lot of hurts, and although you may feel hurt and angry now, it will eventually go away.

I know this from personal experience. Some people have probably read of my problems with my Asian parents, and have given me advice. At the time I expressed an utter longing to leave home and go to college.

Now I am in college, by myself, and I want to be back home with my mother again. I miss my family, and at times I am hit with homesickness so bad I fall into severe depression. Ironic, this, considering I used to fall into severe depression because I wanted to be out of the house and away from my parents.

Sometimes some people avoid confrontations because they know it'll blow over. Like my mother, who never said anything when my brother and I are having a fight, because she knew within at most three days we'd make up again.

Things will get better. Don't say anything to your father that disagrees with him, since you know he'll blow up in your face. There's no point on egging him further. In my opinion, that's plain stupidity. I would do what you did before: humor him, then complain to your husband or here. Let him live in his little world of righteousness. We know better.

It's tough not giving your opinion sometimes, especially when you feel that his is just plain wrong. It's also probably painful to know that you can't act honestly with your own parents. That's a part of life, and only you know how to best deal with that.

My heart goes out to you.

[Ennazus]

No fireworks at the BBQ yesterday. I did speak to my dad for a few minutes, when I arrived to pick up Tanya. He told me they all missed me and that he hopes I can make it next time. I didn't detect any challenge in his eyes or voice, so things are looking up.

Thanks again everybody.

I bet you could probably get a Chicago-area Infidel Gathering (TM) going if you wanted to meet up with some of your support network. Bring the daughter too - they're fun for the whole family!

Michael, this would be great! How difficult is it to get a gathering in the works?

[The Other Michael]

I did a quick search in the Lounge and didn't turn up an existing thread. Basically, what people have been doing is starting a thread ("Chicago Infidel Gathering" would probably work) in the Lounge and see who responds, and then working out the details from there.

cheers,
Michael

[Proxima Centauri]

Originally posted by B.Shack
I agree with the Other Michael, DMB and others. Stay away till things have cooled down. People like your dad get some psychological kicks out of an argument. Staying away stops him getting what he, (and your mum) want. There's already one temptation to get back into it, that lovely bbq. Or perhaps they are sorry and want you back on their terms. They need you more than you need them, (grannysistting).
If mum wants you to grannysit consider suggesting they look for someone else unless dad is prepared to be more civil.
You probably won't get an apology but if you stay away for a few months dad will be less likely to reoffend. If dad reoffends stay away longer next time.
After I made my last post I realized I had come close to contradicting myself. I wrote, "If mum wants you to granny sit consider suggesting they look for someone else unless dad is prepared to be more civil." Earlier I suggested that you try and look after your grandmother because I have looked after my Mother when she had Alzheimer and I know how badly your Mother will need a break.
What should you do? You said your family had found a place where your grandmother likes to go and this gives your Mother a break. I assume the pressure on your Mother is less than it was.
The trouble with your Dad will probably settle. It looks a bit like your Dad was acting out of character and is starting to regret it. Going back to them too soon could stop things settling. Perhaps you could write tactfully to your Mother and tell her that you would like to visit and help with Gran if she needs you. Also tell her that if you help with Gran you need to be sure your Dad won't insult you for expressing opinions. Come back and tell us how your parents react to this.

[geniph]

I've had to deal with similar issues myself with increasing frequency. I've never seen things so polarized here in the U.S. - it's getting downright frightening how common it's becoming to demonize those with differing opinions. I've had to be pretty hardcore about it; essentially, if I'm going to attend a family gathering where I know the hardcore rightwingers will be, I agree to stay off of politics and religion, but they must also show me the same courtesy. If they do not, because things have so frequently devolved into shouting matches that make everyone uncomfortable, then the minute the "politics/religion" barrier is breached, I get up and leave. I only had to do that a couple of times; now the more moderate (less aware?) members of the family are quick to shush anyone who starts with the flamebait.

Family gatherings need to have moderators these days! ;-)

[Ennazus]

After I made my last post I realized I had come close to contradicting myself. I wrote, "If mum wants you to granny sit consider suggesting they look for someone else unless dad is prepared to be more civil." Earlier I suggested that you try and look after your grandmother because I have looked after my Mother when she had Alzheimer and I know how badly your Mother will need a break.

Yes, B. Shack, my mom found a great elder care program. Two days a week my grandma spends the entire day with her friends. I haven't had Grandma here in ages, but I do go over there occasionally. The elder care has helped with my daughter as well. They were always getting into brawls about Tanya's (daughter) unbaptised, doomed-to-Hell soul.

I still haven't talked to my dad, since the brief talk in the driveway. I think things will be OK, eventually. I am going to take the advice of several posters and put a stop to religious/political discussions as soon as they start. If that doesn't work, then I will leave. I won't let myself be drawn into arguments or screamed at again.

Thanks, Suzanne