closeted atheism

[Gothic_J]

are you open about your philisophy? to people I have just met, online, in real life, outside the family, I am. Ive also told my 3 irreligious cousins.

I however have not told my 40+ semifundy relatives. I ph34r them. thats both parents, both sisters, and everyone on my mom's side.

so, Im pondering when to tell them. possibly after I move out, but I also plan on getting in politics over the next few months, and public interviews may float their way.

[debater10]

Originally posted by Gothic_J
are you open about your philisophy? to people I have just met, online, in real life, outside the family, I am. Ive also told my 3 irreligious cousins.

I however have not told my 40+ semifundy relatives. I ph34r them. thats both parents, both sisters, and everyone on my mom's side.

so, Im pondering when to tell them. possibly after I move out, but I also plan on getting in politics over the next few months, and public interviews may float their way.

I know what you mean. Most everyone related to me is in the dark about my atheism, but all of my friends are aware. Liberty University is an uncomfortable place to be an atheist, but I find it easier to be an outspoken atheist there than in front of my family. Both my mother and father work in a church, and all my siblings are very religous.
I can't really offer much in the way of reccomendations for action, but if you are going into politics, then the sooner they know, the better.
Perhaps writing it down might help. Most of the fundamentalists here at school won't let me get three words out befroe they start in on the whole witnessing thing [I've found that everyone here thinks that they have the perfect bumper-sticker xtian slogan that is going to miraculously bring you to faith... none of them do]. Perhaps, in written form, it will be easier for the family to understand in totality.
However you go about it, I wish you the best of luck.

[Heathen Dawn]

Man... closeted atheism... this is new to me: a purely US phenomenon I've just begun to be acquainted with. Here in my country (Israel) there's rarely such a thing, what with more than 70% of the Jewish populace being secular; on the contrary, it was when I wanted to be a religious Jew that I had to be closeted, and my parents reacted furiously when they found that out.

I sympathise. You atheists all in the US are having hard times. :(

[Gothic_J]

well, I dont give a damn about some anonymous fundy who thinks Im going to hell - I debate them on a regularly basis. no big deal.

what more disturbs me is an omnipresent famly situation of trusting in god. its freaky. they honestly expect god to do something. I ask about africa, and they say its gods plan. I say Ill fix it and they say that must be part of his plan. bit rough on the 20 mil who die in the meantime, I thot, and why should god get the credit? hes not giving me the campaign ideas by email.

already my fam is asking me why I dont go to church or why I think god is evil. I know the bible better then they do, but they accuse me of context. :banghead:

[SiliconWolf]

When I deconverted, I never even thought of continuing with the "motions". I don't remember how I told my parents I wasn't going to church any more, but they didn't have much to say.

As for what I tell friends/extended family, it doesn't usually come up. The only time I can remember is a conversation with my Wiccan friend. She also left the Catholic church, so we have common ground. No reason to be in the closet around someone who has a similar experience.

I have some relatives who might flip out, but I probably wouldn't mind pissing some of them off. Overall, lapsed Catholics are common enough that most people I know would probably assume it was just a phase (an 8-year phase ;) ).

[Gothic_J]

ach, but we're protestants. no lapsing here, like the damned catholics!

not that bad, but I dont want to be bothered with them trying to save my soul every 3 days.

[Heathen]

I only tell people online and close friends I'm an atheist, and the only family member that knows is an older brother. My parents were both raised in small Bible belt towns, and so are many of the people I go to college with. *sigh* My mom would most definitely flip out, my dad would be disappointed, and I don't know what anyone else would think.

[Defiant Heretic]

I don't go around declaring it any more than I would have when I was Catholic, but if the topic arises, I won't hold back.

[jafosei]

are you open about your philisophy?

I've only recently acknowledged my atheism to myself, and haven't gotten around to telling any of my family or close friends yet. I've been debating whether or not to be straightforward with my parents about it too, so I sympathize with your problem.

I suspect that I'm going to let it be for the present. I love my parents dearly, and I suspect they will be hurt when they find out. If they ask me directly, I'll be honest (and as gentle as possible), but if they don't ask, I think it'll be acceptable to stay quiet.

If I were about to become very public about my personal views, though, I suspect I'd want to have a sit-down talk with them. I'd prefer they get the 'bad' news from me directly than to hear it on the news or from one of their friends in church, but that's just me.

[Gothic_J]

they've asked! they are like, why have you stopped going to church? are you still a christian?

cuz Ive gotten increasingly cynical and open about my opinions about religion, and Ive become a lot more liberal. no, I dont think gays should die. sorry.

Ive no idea what would happen if I told them straight out.

[SiliconWolf]

I wonder what others do who deconvert while they are still living with their parents, religious SO, or whatever. I have seen some people state that they keep going to church anyway. There was no way I was going to do that, so the first time I came home from college after my deconversion, I had to "fess up".

It's interesting that I have kept a number of other things in the closet, yet I never thought of doing so with atheism.

[Raydo97]

Gothic J,

Have you thought about simply treating it as a non-issue? Maybe instead of openly professing your Atheism, you should just appear "indifferent" toward Christianity and going to church. Indifference is a much easier pill for the religious family to swallow than Atheism. Maybe you could even stall them with comments about how you're "confused" and "searching" or some nonsense that will give you some breathing room, but give them hope that you might still come back around. I'm not suggesting that you be dishonest, just hold your cards close to your vest to avoid an ugly confrontation.

I'm like many people here in my approach to others. There are a handful of people who know my personal convictions. To most people, though, I'm just that guy who never goes to church and cuts his grass on Sundays. I let them assume that I'm too busy, too young to care about the afterlife, or as my neighbor likes to say, "the lord hasn't called me yet."

Whatever they think, as long as I'm left the hell alone.

ENOUGH WITH THE RELIGION ALREADY.

Ray

[One for Sorrow]

Originally posted by debater10
I know what you mean. Most everyone related to me is in the dark about my atheism, but all of my friends are aware. Liberty University is an uncomfortable place to be an atheist, but I find it easier to be an outspoken atheist there than in front of my family. Both my mother and father work in a church, and all my siblings are very religous.

You go to Liberty?!! :eek: That's amazing. I would go nuckin' futs in that place!

I am still in the closet, but I have at least one foot out the door. I told two of my friends after making them promise not to tell anybody, and naturally now all of my friends know. :p

I was raised by my grandparents, and religion was never really discussed in our home. We never went to church, but they are Christians of some sort. I have tried testing the waters to see how they would react, but it makes them uncomfortable and they change the subject. They might already know, since I've dropped enough hints. I think they just refuse to acknowledge it. Oh well. I still live with them so I'll just stay in the comfort of my closet since it isn't really an issue anyway.

[Gothic_J]

Originally posted by Raydo97
Gothic J,

Have you thought about simply treating it as a non-issue? Maybe instead of openly professing your Atheism, you should just appear "indifferent" toward Christianity and going to church. Indifference is a much easier pill for the religious family to swallow than Atheism. Maybe you could even stall them with comments about how you're "confused" and "searching" or some nonsense that will give you some breathing room, but give them hope that you might still come back around. I'm not suggesting that you be dishonest, just hold your cards close to your vest to avoid an ugly confrontation.

I'm like many people here in my approach to others. There are a handful of people who know my personal convictions. To most people, though, I'm just that guy who never goes to church and cuts his grass on Sundays. I let them assume that I'm too busy, too young to care about the afterlife, or as my neighbor likes to say, "the lord hasn't called me yet."

Whatever they think, as long as I'm left the hell alone.

ENOUGH WITH THE RELIGION ALREADY.

Ray

Ive done the need to ponder my faith thing for 3 yrs. Im getting titchy. or maybe they are. they say some stupid fundy comment and I pounce it. if religion didnt come up, it wouldnt be a problem, but you hear god invoked every hour :banghead: :banghead:

[Trecker]

Gothic_J, I truly believe it is best to approach this matter by thinking about what is the best thing you can do for yourself and everyone whenever you confront fundies. Remember, they are the ones that cannot think straight and not you. You are the one with ALL the control. You can dodge the question, answer in a round-about way, or let them have it with both barrels. Life is too short to let some small-minded fundi interfer with how you ultimately are perceived by others with whom you must interact. Do what is in your interest!

[RalphyS]

Religion, belief and/or the lack thereoff is really a non-issue in my every day life.

My surroundings were Catholic, but not very persistent.

We used to go to church for Xmas and Easter and someday I just refused to go, big arguement at the time, I wasn't really an outspoken atheist, just hated the church-thing, because it was boring.

Later told my parents that I did not believe, sometimes we talked a little about it, but it isn't really an issue.

My girlfriend knows about my atheism and how it is a big part of what I am. At first she told me she didn't really believe either and it is not like she is a devout Catholic on the contrary. But we sometimes argue when she wants me to go to church when her aunt and uncle celebrate their 40th wedding anniversary. I feel like such a hypocrite in church and she just can't understand that. We had an arguement once, totally unrelated to religion, and than she stated that she already knew there would never be a church marriage totally out of the blue, tears and all.

Well sorry just a little rant.

Sometimes I even wished that people around me did believe more fundamentally so you could really talk and discuss about it, but the religion is just a basic thing here that they do without even talking or thinking about it.

In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners.
Jonathon Miller

[tensorproduct]

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn
Man... closeted atheism... this is new to me: a purely US phenomenon I've just begun to be acquainted with. Here in my country (Israel) there's rarely such a thing, what with more than 70% of the Jewish populace being secular; on the contrary, it was when I wanted to be a religious Jew that I had to be closeted, and my parents reacted furiously when they found that out.

I sympathise. You atheists all in the US are having hard times. :(

I agree completely. I can't imagine not being open about my beliefs.
The only person who doesn't know I'm an atheist is my gran, who is a devout Catholic.
In general I assume that everyone I meet is a lapsed Catholic. Most people don't practise because they think it's irrelevant, but very few are willing to go the distance and abandon their faith altogether.
When I first met the only fundy I know (a BAC, but probably scandalously liberal by US standards) I was so shocked I didn't know what to say. He has to keep his beliefs in the closet for fear of ridicule alot more than I ever would.

[veniceboy]

my religon rarely comes up. I usually tell people I'm not religous. If they try to talk to me about religon, I usually just pose arguments that refute theirs without claiming to personally subscribe to them.

[Manta]

I'm sort of easing my folks into it...first a friend that I visited "oh yeah, he's an atheist"...mom got a worried look on her face. Dad ...i don't think he heard that part. Not that I'm worried about him....

One co-worker knows...a few friends...now it's gonna be interesting when they find out that my new beau is also atheist. Whoda thuk it - 2 in the same town in SC :D

I'm not going to worry about it, I'm starting a new job, and if the subject comes up, then I'll talk about it - if not...then I won't worry about it. I usually give the line "I don't discuss religion or politics" - I freely admit that I don't know the bible (yeah, 'know thy enemy'...but I can't get into it) so it's useless for me to try & argue about it. I'd rather argue about why people should participate in recycling programs :D

-k 'disinterested bystander'

[Graeme]

Originally posted by Manta

-k 'disinterested bystander'

:D That reminds me of my grandparents - they always proffessed to be 'devout ignorers of religion'...

Needless to say it runs in the family, and reading these stories makes me appreciate it all the more.

[Gothic_J]

I was laughing about some comments I read in 'the book the church doesnt want you to read', and read them to my mom. she was like, well, you used to believe it.

odd thing is, I feel for some reason the desire to cover my tracks, so I said, I disagree about some things, but isnt said verse funny? she agreed, but said it didnt make it untrue.

I, of course, disagree.

[Richard1366]

Getting into politics as an atheist, lots of luck on that. You have two choices, either hide your atheism or openly express it. To hide it and still remain honest, when asked about it, ( and I can probably guarantee that you will) you can say something like, "I'm not going to get into religious affiliation, this campaign is not about faith it is about getting things done..." or you can say "I'm an atheist and very proud of it." The former will probably work in your favor, the latter spells the end of a very short career in politics.

[Roland98]

I'm not incredibly open about it; my in-laws know, my siblings know, and my parents kind-of know but we've never really discussed it. Most of the people at work know, but then again, many of them are atheists as well (or at least very liberal Christians).

Tough situation--with my siblings, I felt them out for several months before I really said anything that addressed my lack of faith; with my in-laws, my husband and I had to tell them due to something that happened at their church (we had been allowing them to take the kids to church on Sunday mornings; they knew before we "weren't religious" but they didn't know the full extent until my daughter came home and started telling me that Mommy and Daddy were going to Hell unless they came to church). Good luck to you.

[Gothic_J]

I have a quote all prepared ^^

kennedy. good orater.

I believe in an america where the seperation of church and state is absolute - where no catholic prelate would tell the president (should he be catholic) how to act, and no protestant minister would tell his parishoners for whom to vote - - where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference - - and no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the president who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.

paraphrased, of course, for atheism I think only rightwing fundies worry about religion considering that context.

interesting thing today. my mom says its ok whatever religion I am, as long as I dont mess with their faith. on the other hand, my sis is apparently trying to convert me back to the fold, as if I cant have my own maltheist sect, and she cant handle my debate style - sarcastic and often abusive. I dont take stupidity well.

now fundy books are appearing in my room. I read the premise in the first few chapters, and explain how they are false analogies, circular arguments, ior appeals to authority.

my mom tells me I shouldnt debate if Im not even going to listen to the other side, and is promising to get me the book "evidence that demands a verdict"

[Mullibok]

Originally posted by Gothic_J
my mom tells me I shouldnt debate if Im not even going to listen to the other side, and is promising to get me the book "evidence that demands a verdict"

You could suggest to her that she find a well-written apologetics book instead of merely a popular one. ;) But if I were in this position I would get sick of the intra-family debate pretty quick and try to make it clear to my family that I wasn't looking to spend every free moment debating about this.

[Gothic_J]

small house, and youi cant really escape it. cant spend 30 min without hearing about god, and faulty logic insists that I pounce.

"a hymn about god blasting his enemies with fire? thats not very nice, is it?"

oh, and she says its extremely well written.

also, I think if I said it right out, they'd still try to bring me back to the fold. I was talking with a friend of the family, telling him I became a reverend, and he was like, oh, your crisis of faith is over?

[mikester]

im not a closet atheist, but im not exactly going out telling everyone about my beleifs.

if im asked, or if that particular fact is warranted, then yes, i will tell people i beleive in no god, no higher power, none of that.

im not shy, im just not rude about it i guess. :p

[Gothic_J]

my mom gave me a tape, the 7 point whammy, by josh mcdowell. insisting its great.

it opens with a prayer, which is bound to get on my good side.

then it argues biblical truth. . . by using biblical verses. mark said he wouldnt lie, so the bible is true. . . so he didnt lie.

I stand it for 10 minutes, then turn it off. circular arguments piss me off.

[bdshort]

Over the last year I've slowly shifted from somewhat with mild Christian leanings (if someone asked, I said I believed in God, but I didn't really care about religion, I didn't live for Christ, or any of that...) to someone who is now an agnostic, but atheistic towards any specific religion. Both of my parents, as well as my sister who is at college, are pretty devout Christians, especially my mom and sister. They attend a Lutheran church (ELCA, liberal) although I would say that my mom at least would lean more towards the fundamentalist side of things. I haven't mentioned outright my beliefs, although at times I've hinted. Last week my mother tried to show me this book called "Hard Case Witnessing", specifically a chapter on confronting secularists. Not to surprisingly, it gave the same old YEC arguments against evolution and an old earth. I pointed out some errors I already knew about, and told her to take a look at talkorigins.org, though I don't know if she's done this yet. We haven't had a real debate about anything yet, and if she came out and asked if I believed in God, I'd say no. I like to avoid religious debates, since they really tend to go nowhere, and I think I'm a pretty poor debater anyway.

[Gothic_J]

practice helps.

my mom comes into my room to use my comp, and is telling me how god must be helping if we've never starved (mind you, we live in the richest country in the world), and that her life changed cuz she took up religion, and all the stuff that she says proves god.

I remained diplomatically silent.

[The Other Michael]

While I can be pretty upfront about my atheism when face to face with someone, if I forget to switch my reply-to address on a non-IIDB related email from my infidels.org address back to my usual one, I'll get a "oh crap, what have I done?" type of feeling.

That's a pretty silly reaction, but it is hard to break decades of conditioning that by being an atheist I'm being a bad person.

cheers,
Michael

[Bright Life]

are you open about your philisophy?

I never had the "luxury" of being "in the closet" with my uber-fundie mother. I questioned her at 4 or so about the obvious questions-- Who did Cain marry? If God loves us, why is he so mean? Getting no worthy responses, I wrote in my bible, at age five, "God, if you are real, check this box." A seemingly benign display of power, I would think, to inspire a child to a lifetime of mindless worship. There was no check, only a fire and brimstone reply from "mommy dearest" when she found it, and additional Wednesday night bible school.

I've mentioned elsewhere about the nasty responses I got for "coming out" at school--death threats and such.

So now, I have friends that do not know my beliefs. They just haven't come up. My only close friends are atheist or agnostic, though. And in general , I only share my beliefs with those I feel are sincerely intrested in knowing me, not just looking for a convert.

I simply have no desire to debate what will only succeed in upsetting the fragile apple cart of faith, and causing a rude, if not verbally (or physically) violent reaction.

[Lolabrigida]

The only folks that I insist not know that I am an atheist are my grandparents. They are so thoroughly engrossed in religion that it would be devastating to them. So, when they visit, we all say 'prayers' before meals...even in restaurants. It used to bug me more as a christian to pray in public. As a non-believer, I don't mind it so much...strange. (Maybe the idea of hurting them by not praying makes it easier to shut my eyes and hold hands?) ((Even my atheist spouse and child acquiesce.))

[catalyst]

I am extremely open about my religous stance. However, I have very little in the way of family. When I did, it was not exactly a big deal as I do not come from anything even vaguely resembling a christian background.

[geniph]

Personally, I regard my religious beliefs the same way I do my sex life - it's really no one else's business who I sleep with or what I believe. I don't hide it and I will certainly expound on it given the opportunity, but in most cases, it's a non-issue. I'm a non-theist.

[Gothic_J]

well hell. 30 minutes of debate with my mom, where she concedes Im a better debater, she cant answer my questions, is pissed that I dismiss all her stuff (josh mcdowell anyone?) becuase they have fallacies, but gets annoyed when I agree with 'that atheist guy'. thomas paine is in my room, and she doesnt like the antichristianity of him, nor of the my other books on atheism.

she says I am starting from my conclusion and am unwilling to listen to reason. the first is true - both my premise and conclusion is atheism, as god must be proven, but she provides no reason for it.

[Barcode]

But, didn't Thomas Paine believe in God? It was religion he had the utmost contempt for. Point that out to your Mom.

[Gothic_J]

yeah, he was a deist. he thought christianity was ridiculous, and she was more opposed to my other atheist books then that. but if it isnt open to christianity's fallacies, its not open minded. :rolleyes:

[Shake]

Wow! More new-ish users here! Welcome! (Whether I've said so already or not)

One for Sorrow mentioned attempting to bring it up to grandparents, but them feeling uncomfortable about discussing religion. Don't push it with people who feel uncomfortable discussing such things. You'll only make things worse. If you're straight out asked by family and such, it might be better to just tell the truth and let them deal with it. Living a lie, even a partial one will eat at you and is not fair to anyone.

Richard1366 said that it's not good for a political career, and I have to agree with that. Now, I'm sure you're not going to start off by running for President, but I feel I have to point out stats that I've seen several times posted here that the public would much sooner vote for an openly gay candidate than an atheist. (... and they're still not that willing to vote for a gay!) IMHO, at least until you get into office, do the political thing and keep it a non-issue. You can just say that you feel religion is a personal issue and you won't discuss it in public. Just mention that you have respect for personal religious expression, but you don't feel that it has any relevance to the position for which you're vying.

As for me, my wife knows, 2 co-workers (who asked me point-blank) know, as does my sister and her hubby (which is why we won't be godparents to their child(ren)), and I think my parents have a hint, but probably don't know the full extent of my disbelief. That feeling of eating at you I mentioned above is getting to me in that respect. I feel I may remedy this situation soon, and I will probably do so, as someone already suggested, in a written format so as to be able to make my opinions fully heard without interruption. But I feel it's something I need to get off my chest. I think I'll feel better once I do it.

The most recent incident where part of me wanted to just scream out, "I'M an ATHEIST!", but instead just blew off the offending comments was a recent phone conversation when Mom insinuated that I'd "get more out of" the sermons now as an adult. Grrr! I was a smart kid, I knew what the Pastor was saying, probably caught more than a lot of the adults did, even then.

[The Other Michael]

Originally posted by Shake
a recent phone conversation when Mom insinuated that I'd "get more out of" the sermons now as an adult.

That's probably because she figures you've outgrown your "rebelling against God" phase. :rolleyes:

cheers,
Michael

[Gothic_J]

on an amusing note, the first office I plan to actually run for is president, yes, but I plan to have a lot of government work before that (marines, cia), and a lot of public policy mucking about. I have a tidy little vision for the future, and *would* so love for it to come about. it will help me get in the limelight, as well.

I dunno about showing atheism to fam yet. my mom is great and normal et all, until you bring up religion, and enter the realm of doublethink. asking for proof of god just pisses her off. saying there is no god not a good idea either. she sounded *very* hostile about my freethinker books.

[Jobar]

GothicJ, we live in a country where, like, 70% of the people polled think it is wrong to force Alabama to remove the Ten Commandments from the state Supreme Court building.

This means that if you don't have some sort of religion, you won't- will not- be ever elected to any position if you are openly atheist. I hate to have to say it, but it's true. I hope it will change in my lifetime, or at least in yours (I'm almost 48), but that ain't the way to bet.

My advice to you is to look for the closest Unitarian Universalist church, and get involved there. If you have been a regular member of one church for a while, no matter how liberal it is- the UUs openly accept atheists- it will mean that you can aspire to politics with some chance of success.

I like your Kennedy quote, and you seem to have the drive and ambition needed to succeed in politics. I wish you the very best- but don't break your head against the brick wall which is American religion in the 21st century. It must be undermined from within, and from beneath.

[Elbereth]

I tend to wait until people ask me before I tell them. To most, religion is not a big issue, they are Christmas and Easter Christians, so it's no big deal. My immediate family knows and doesn't care. My grandmother on my father's side asked me if I ever go to church a couple years ago so I told her, and apart from the initial "I failed to bring you to Jesus, I only hope you will find Jesus some day" she's been cool about it.

And then we come to my Mother's side of the family, which consists of Southern Baptists and, what's worse, Non-denominational Christian fundies. I really do not want them to know, because I want to spare them the whole feeling sorry for me that I'm going to hell bit... and also because I don't really know how they will react. Especially my grandparents.

So far I haven't been in a situation where I would have to reveal myself or lie, and I hope that doesn't happen, because I would not lie. They're in Florida and I'm not so we don't see each other often, but at my sister's graduation my grandmother was talking about how my cousin is traveling and learning Evangelism... "learning how to deal with atheists" and such. Ewch. And then my other grandmother is always referring to people as a "good Christian woman", etc., and I really hope she does not think it best to share my lack of religious belief.

Anyway, I suppose if I come to that bridge I will cross it.

[Blackness]

Most of my family is in the dark about me being an atheist. My father, brothers and some people in my step family know. My father thinks it's only a temporary and tried to convert me back to being a Christain but had a hard time finding enough evidence to convince me that God or the Devil exist.

I imagine most of my family would be accepting while others would probably look at me with disgust or even disown me so I don't tell people in my family about it.

I go to a Christian college, I don't think anyone knows I am an atheist and I would openly say it unless someone asked me about it. I didn't really want to go to this school but it is much more secular than I imagined. But yea, atheism isn't tolerated much...at least with the people I know

[Trecker]

Originally posted by Jobar
GothicJ, we live in a country where, like, 70% of the people polled think it is wrong to force Alabama to remove the Ten Commandments from the state Supreme Court building.

This means that if you don't have some sort of religion, you won't- will not- be ever elected to any position if you are openly atheist. I hate to have to say it, but it's true. I hope it will change in my lifetime, or at least in yours (I'm almost 48), but that ain't the way to bet.

My advice to you is to look for the closest Unitarian Universalist church, and get involved there. If you have been a regular member of one church for a while, no matter how liberal it is- the UUs openly accept atheists- it will mean that you can aspire to politics with some chance of success.

I like your Kennedy quote, and you seem to have the drive and ambition needed to succeed in politics. I wish you the very best- but don't break your head against the brick wall which is American religion in the 21st century. It must be undermined from within, and from beneath.

Jobar, I wish I were not so pessimistic, but as long as we have masses who wish to not think we shall also have some broad religion/government controlling them and running most of their pathetic lives for them. I truly believe the most that can be done here is for the masses to embrace a more benign form or religion/government. If one compares the Bahai faith to the Christian or Moslem faiths, the Bahai faith seems to be much softer and accepting. Perhaps that is the best humanity could hope for until they are further evolved. I certainly do not see the possibility for the masses to begin thinking in anyone's future here.:(

[Gothic_J]

ah, well, my trick is getting a couple countries added to usa, so I can get some atheist voters.

I dunno if Ill run openly atheist. the jury is still out.

I truly despise church. I cant go to services of blood drenched death worship nihilism. not for me.

as for religion ending - well. we'll see. :D

[Trecker]

Even right here, on these very boards, do we find people who would advocate formation of church-like structures. (for atheists, of course) Unlike most religions, true atheism requires a person to go it alone. There is no one that can give you prescribed ways which you should think. Free thought requires that one not be tied to the pre-patterned loops whose outcomes are all easily predicted. There is little chance the masses of people could tolerate this kind of thinking without predetermination and "comforting" matrix of illusion.:(

[Gothic_J]

so I am talking to my mom about a rapture ready post, where they prove the sun is not a star using only the bible as a source. she says this is ridiculous, and so do I. somehow, this moves to big bang theory. iirc, she asks right out, you believe it? I generally dont bring it up, cuz I dont know much about it- my strength is biblelore. anyway, it comes up, I say sure. she tells me this is ridiculous, and asks me how the universe got so ordered without any god? I reply the big bang doesnt talk about the big bang either way, and that the galaxies occured through natural law - gravity and the like. she gets twitched and ask me where the laws come from, giving me a variant of the first cause argument. needless to say, i dice it, and she gets increasingly twitchy, going on to say einstein said the universe coming about this way without guidance was as likely as throwing typewriter bits and bringing them down whole. appeal to authority, false analogy, no source. I also dismiss this out of hand, and even if he did say this - so what? he was a brilliant scientist, but his offhand comments mean nothing without proof. then she says she cant understand why I believe this (I can believe what I like - right), as order couldnt appear naturally, then she jumps to evolution, asking how we came from apes when apes are still around. this is explained as well, then she asks me why all her arguments are dismissed without 30 seconds thought, while mine still go. not as if my sources are peer reviewed journals, and hers are creationist nonsense, fallacies 100 deep. she ends the argument with 'thisis my house, and you cant bash my beliefs', and tells me I shouldnt have brought it up. she also mentions I was very rude, even though I didnt swear at her once - which I do almost every debate.

sigh.

[Gothic_J]

gah. she says she supports the aclj, atheists dont have morals, and she prolly wouldnt vote for one.

nice comfy closet.

[mikester]

i guess im the same as many people here; i dont go announcing my atheistic beleifs (or lack thereof, whatever you want), but i dont back down from a discussion about it either.

ive had a few little quips from religious-type friends (mainly girls from all-catholic schools), and all ended just fine. they accept me, i accept them.

actually, one of them wants to have a serious debate about it someday. :)

[AspenMama]

gothic-

I usually end up summarizing the whole creation debate with the reply that while scientists have presented a theory, it is true we have not yet been able to completely prove it. That is why it is called a theory. However, it is a much more likely theory than creation.

Just because we don't know something, does not mean we must attribute it to a deity. I don't know exactly how the mechanics of my toliet work. But I certainly know that the least likely theory is that there are little fairies in there grabbing waste and carring it away to a secret little kingdom.

Having said that, I might lay off discussions with your mother for a bit. Let things cool down. Demonstrate you respect her in other ways-- that's the best refutation to the argument that atheists are sub-human.

[Gothic_J]

joy. we were talking about changing religions, and she said of the ones I could join, atheism would be worst, the order being christian, judaism, islam, eastern religions, atheism, in degrees of wrongness.

[AspenMama]

Hmm. Where did Zeus fit in? Or any of the ancient goddess religions which pre-date xianity?

[Gothic_J]

I should ask her. its an ongoing joke with me that I worship alexander, ceaser, and aphrodite.

[Gothic_J]

eastern religions >ceaser alexander > atheism

cuz atheists are in denial, and at least the roman worshippers were heading in the right direction.

[Radcliffe Emerson]

I am very open about it. The last people to find out were my parents, but they are fully aware of it now. They are very religous and upset that I don't believe, but they've learned that they aren't going to be able to do anything about it.
I think my comment to my mother "I find religion laughably absurd" pretty much drove it home.
They were the only ones I was concerned about. Since I've told them, I don't keep it a secret from anyone.
I don't run around insulting believers and trying to get them to see reason either, however. I just leave them alone (co-workers, etc), and so far, they're reciprocating.

[Shake]

Originally posted by The Other Michael
That's probably because she figures you've outgrown your "rebelling against God" phase. :rolleyes:

cheers,
Michael Yeah, I know. It'll come as a big shock to her when she realizes it isn't a phase. I'll have to mention that you can't rebel against something in which you don't believe.

Similar to what mikester said, I've come to not bringing it up myself unless directly questioned about it. I try to make my arguments reasoned and show that I don't need god(s) to be a good, moral person.

[Jamie_L]

I am very closeted, but it almost doesn't feel that way.

I grew up in an essentially secular, but not atheist family. Religion, or lack thereof, was a total non-issue.

I've grown up surrounding myself with similarly non-religious people (most of whom are believers, but not publicly active about it), so religion or lack thereof is again, a rare topic.

Since my life has revolved so little around discussions of belief, I tend to be most comfortable keeping things that way, at least in face-to-face conversation (the internet is a whole other world for me). I stay closeted mostly because I'd rather not fool with all the baggage it brings to most conversations and relationships. It wouldn't add that much to my life for people to know, and it seems like there's potential for it to detract significantly.

It's bad enough being the out-of-closet skeptic about all the psychics on TV now. I don't need any more stress by being the local religious skeptic. :)

Jamie