Origin of the term Gentile

[Soul Invictus]

I just finished doing a google, however what I am able to ascertain from the KJV, Gentiles would be the Greco-Roman people at least. I don't have one of the maps with me, but it appears to be a European people that this would alude to. Anyone know the background behind this name-title, and its original connotation?

What did the term "Gentile" mean?

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus


What did the term "Gentile" mean? Non-Jew.

[Aerik Von]

Originally posted by Magus55
Non-Jew.

This makes the first time you and I have ever fully agreed! I am having a drink to this :D

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Interesting question, since "non-Jew" does not say anything. Were they "non-pagans" as well? Perhaps, Agnostics?

:eek:

It's interesting to me that no one can consider the idea that each generation is dynamic and therefore the same. In other words, there were about ten percent atheists then as there are now.

Why? Becuase there will always be about ten percent of the population who will always think critically of the other ninety percent.

There's a common misconception (IMO) that everyone always believed in some sort of deity; that our ancestors were all deists in some fashion. Ironically, this negates the idea of free thinking.

I content that there have always been atheists (or critical thinkers), throughout all of humanity's existance (and this is borne out by recorded history).

This is the way humanity breaks down (IMO). A handfull of intelligent thinkers enslave the rest for being to brutish. Thus, religion/state.

It ain't rocket science.

[Peter Kirby]

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
It's interesting to me that no one can consider the idea that each generation is dynamic and therefore the same. In other words, there were about ten percent atheists then as there are now.

Why? Becuase there will always be about ten percent of the population who will always think critically of the other ninety percent. I believe this 10% figure for atheists is based on the USA. The figure for atheists is much higher in Russia (once USSR) and China, as well as thoroughly democratic countries such as Australia and the Netherlands. The figure is also lower for several countries in Latin America or in Arab countries. The figures do change based on the state of education, cultural background, and relationship between church and state in the country.

There's a common misconception (IMO) that everyone always believed in some sort of deity; that our ancestors were all deists in some fashion. Ironically, this negates the idea of free thinking.

I content that there have always been atheists (or critical thinkers), throughout all of humanity's existance (and this is borne out by recorded history). I agree. But in theocratic countries, when the scientific method was unknown (and Darwin & Wallace were yet to be born), such as there were in the ancient Near East, the percentage of atheists was much lower than in countries which cherish the wall of separation and attempt to promulgate scientific knowledge with free education. But there were some, sure.

best,
Peter Kirby

[Toto]

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
Interesting question, since "non-Jew" does not say anything. Were they "non-pagans" as well? Perhaps, Agnostics?

. . .

Non-Jew identifies them as not part of your group. Most of them were people who would later be branded as "pagans" by Christians.

Non-Greeks were known as "barbarians."

[JaeIsGod]

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
I believe this 10% figure for atheists is based on the USA. The figure for atheists is much higher in Russia (once USSR) and China, as well as thoroughly democratic countries such as Australia and the Netherlands. The figure is also lower for several countries in Latin America or in Arab countries. The figures do change based on the state of education, cultural background, and relationship between church and state in the country.

I agree. But in theocratic countries, when the scientific method was unknown (and Darwin & Wallace were yet to be born), such as there were in the ancient Near East, the percentage of atheists was much lower than in countries which cherish the wall of separation and attempt to promulgate scientific knowledge with free education. But there were some, sure.

best,
Peter Kirby

You sure its much higher in the Netherlands? I live there and in my area it's 99% fundies =[
Guess in the cities there are more atheists , though it seems the number of muslims is skyrocketing there as well.

[Kosh]

Originally posted by JaeIsGod
You sure its much higher in the Netherlands? I live there and in my area it's 99% fundies =[
Guess in the cities there are more atheists , though it seems the number of muslims is skyrocketing there as well.

The rural areas is where most of our fundies are in the US as well. As Peter pointed out, it varies by education...

[Doctor X]

. . . and oral hygiene. . . .

How many teeth do they have in your area of Holland?

--J.D.

[JaeIsGod]

Originally posted by Doctor X
. . . and oral hygiene. . . .

How many teeth do they have in your area of Holland?

--J.D.

Depends. If you count the black ones as well , quite alot. If you dont count the black ones , not too many =p

The majority of adults here has had neither decent education nor a visit to the dentist in the last 20 years.

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by Magus55
Non-Jew.

Is there a significance to this, or is there a reason behind this distinction?

I guess what I'm getting at is:

1) What are the proper titles that would naturally have to follow for Noah's son, Ham? Japeth and his sons are the Gentiles right? And Shem and his lineage or the Jews correct? Maybe Semitic people is a better term. What do you call a these people?

2) What would you call a non-Hamitic descendant?

[offa]

Offa,

Soul Invictus asked, 'What did the term "Gentile" mean?'



How about a little Josephus?

Ant 12-241;

wherefore they desired his permission to build them a
gymnasium at Jerusalem. And when he had given them leave
they also hid the circumcision of their genitals, that
even when they were naked they might appear to be Greeks,
Accordingly, they left off all customs that belonged to
their own country, and imitated the practices of the
other nations.


Josephus is writing (supposedly) in a time frame prior
to the Maccabees. The only place in Genesis I could find
"Gentiles" was, "Gen 10:05 By these were the isles
of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his
tongue, after their families, in their nations.

I just wonder when "Genesis" was written.

The word "Gentiles" appears in "Jubilees" several times and the
author of the "Book of Jubilees" is highly critical of
the "Gentiles".

JUB 01:09
For they will forget all of my commandments,
everything which I shall command them, and they will
walk after the gentiles and after their defilement and
shame. And they will serve their gods, and they will
become for them an affliction and a torment and a
snare.

One would be led to believe that the term "Gentiles"
is from the time of Moses and some four thousand years ago,
however, I feel it was coined about 120 bc, or about the
times of the final editing of ancient Jew books.


Thanks, Offa

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by Magus55
Non-Jew.

Somehow I failed to address this, but Heathen Dawn should be able to confirm this for me.

Gentile stems from the Hebrew word gowy (go'-ee) meaning heathen people. Jews are a cultural subset of a larger Semitic people. The term Gentile does not parallel this idea. It may
refer or make reference to a specific people, so I guess maybe you didn't understand my inquiry.

[Toto]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
Somehow I failed to address this, but Heathen Dawn should be able to confirm this for me.

Gentile stems from the Hebrew word gowy (go'-ee) meaning heathen people. Jews are a cultural subset of a larger Semitic people. The term Gentile does not parallel this idea. It may refer or make reference to a specific people, so I guess maybe you didn't understand my inquiry.

From Miriam Webster online (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary)

Main Entry: 1gen·tile
Pronunciation: 'jen-"tIl
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation
Date: 14th century

1 often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew

2 : HEATHEN, PAGAN

3 often capitalized : a non-Mormon

You are confusing the word gentile with the Yiddish word goy, which mean the same thing.

If you think that "gentile" originally referred to a specific nation, like the Canaanites, it would appear that it didn't, although I can't figure out how it derived its present meaning from the Latin word for nation.

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by Toto
From Miriam Webster online (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary)



You are confusing the word gentile with the Yiddish word goy, which mean the same thing.

If you think that "gentile" originally referred to a specific nation, like the Canaanites, it would appear that it didn't, although I can't figure out how it derived its present meaning from the Latin word for nation.

Not necessarily terribly specific as the Canaanite example, but maybe try this. Understand that this example that I offer is not extended to give any especial creedance to the text, however I use the passages to contend that the writers of the text were in identifying the Gentiles, although Koy has already sentimented a lack of saying anything by choosing to classify parties and Jews, and everyone else.

In Genesis 10:1-32 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=gen+10%3A1-32&version=KJV) there is an story I found interesting, specifically the Table of Nations segment.

As the story goes Noah has three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
According to Gen 10:2-4 it states the sons of Japheth. When taken into consideration the symbolic meaning behind this, we know that the 'sons' represent nation states, or societies. The sons of Japheth and the places that they represent are as follows:

(Genesis 10:2-4)

Gomer = Cimmerians
Magog = Europe (northern primarily)
Madai = Medes (Mediterranean)
Javan = Greece
Tubal = Russia
Meshech = Russia
Tiras = ?
Ashkenaz = Germany
Tarshish = Spain
Kittim =?
Dodanim =?

According to Genesis 10:5 it states "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations." Popular contention is made for Hebrew thought to have only been relevant to the extent of their experience, this explains the lack of documentation for a global flood.

Apparently the son Ham, which represents the (North) African people were not worthy of a lineage title. They are identified however in Genesis 10:6-20. For sake of brevity, the key 'sons' are:

(Genesis 10:6)
Cush = Ethiopia
Mizraim = Egypt
Put = Libya
Canaan = Palestine

The last quoted son is Shem, which represents the Semitic people.
This includes Jesus, the Hebrews, and a host of the biblical characters we've become familiar with.

My contention is that we can use the Bible's passage in Genesis chapter 10 to identify who the Gentiles are. I'm not sure how much more clear verse 5 is regarding this.

I am not well skilled in using concordances or lexicons, however I think I may have found a source to corroborate this at
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon (http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html)

Entries:
1471 - gowy go'-ee rarely (shortened) goy {go'-ee}; apparently from the same root as 1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence, a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts:--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

1482 - ethnikos eth-nee-kos' from 1484; national ("ethnic"), i.e. (specially) a Gentile:--heathen (man).

1484 - ethnos eth'-nos probably from 1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan):--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

I have not done any extensive studies on the particular religious/spiritual climate of said particular countries which represent the 'sons of Japeth', however whether there was a God-concept or not that was prevalent in those respected societies, it naturally follows that the arrogant fashion in which religions condescend alternative societies' God practices/concepts, that it would be evident in such a dogmatic and doctrinal model as Judaism to demean or label the people as heathen and paganistic.

[Toto]

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
. . .
According to Genesis 10:5 it states "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations." Popular contention is made for Hebrew thought to have only been relevant to the extent of their experience, this explains the lack of documentation for a global flood.
...

I'm still not sure what you are getting at. Gentile appears to refer to non-Jewish nations of all sorts, not a particular ethnic group.

Gen 10:5 is translated in the NIV as

(From these the maritime peoples spread out into their territories by their clans within their nations, each with its own language.)

There is some comment on this translation
here (http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_gentile.htm)

The word "Gentile" meets us in the O.T. first in Genesis ten, where the progeny of Japheth, the son of Noah, is given.

"By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations" (Gen. 10:5).

The R.V. corrects this by reading, "Of these were the isles of the nations divided", for until we have a Jew, we cannot have a Gentile, the one being used to distinguish the rest of the population of the earth from the Hebrew nation, and the Hebrew nation did not exist until after the call of Abraham in Genesis twelve. The Hebrew word thus translated is goi, a word derived from a root, meaning to form into a mass or a body. It is used in Job 30:5, where it is rendered "among (men)". Goi indicates a congregation of men associated together. The word goi, in the plural, occurs six times in Genesis ten, being translated "nations" with the exception of the rendering of verse 5 already noted. It is evident that the word Gentile could not be used in Genesis 12:2, in the promise to Abraham, "I will make of thee. a great nation", neither could the word Gentile be used in such a passage as Exodus 19:6, "an holy nation".

We find the word translated "heathen" on occasion (Deut. 4:27), and "people" as in Joshua 3:17, but after considering all the factors in the case, there can be no doubt but that "nation" or "nations" is the most satisfactory translation of the singular goi and the plural goyim.

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by Toto
I'm still not sure what you are getting at. Gentile appears to refer to non-Jewish nations of all sorts, not a particular ethnic group.

Gen 10:5 is translated in the NIV as



There is some comment on this translation
here (http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_gentile.htm)

Thanks for the source. I shall read their information tonight after work.

[Soul Invictus]

Originally posted by Toto
I'm still not sure what you are getting at. Gentile appears to refer to non-Jewish nations of all sorts, not a particular ethnic group.
[/URL]

Thanks for the link again, however my main contention is that the passage clearly identifies where the Gentiles are from, and the sons of Ham are undoubtedly not associated with the land masses that the sons of Japeth are. The sons of Ham are actually not recognized as any particular name, and are actually the supposed cursed ones. Whether this is out of a lack of respect for those people and their culture is another topic, however my only contention is that they are not inclusive to the Gentile people based on the reading of Gen 10:5.

Your thoughts?

Lastly, as the NIV translates Gentile as maritime, is this translation for the other verses that entail the term Gentile?