"Justice" Statue Establishes Religion

[Feather]

It's true. I heard it on a local talk show radio program. The statue of "Justice" that looms at the Supreme Court building is a depiction of the Roman Goddess herself, and therefore is a State endorsement of religion.

Nevermind that every textbook in every classroom in America presents the Greek and Roman gods as "myths." Never mind that the statue doesn't actually bear the words "In Justice We Trust," or "Justice is the only Goddess of the Law, and thou shalt have no others," or anything else of the sort.

It just frosts my hide how easily the doublethink and grandoise spin these turd brained rightwinger nutbarrels can spew this garbage. :mad: :mad: :mad:

And I had to vent here. Obviously this was prompted by the recent oppressive actions of the Federal Government telling Roy Moore who he can believe in by preventing him from using his public authority to intimidate non-Christians. :rolleyes:

[Toto]

Fundies try this periodically - objecting to some art work that depicts a Greco-Roman goddess or (in California) an Aztec symbol. It never works.

[Majestyk]

Roy Moore made that remark during his rant the other day.

On the face of it, they have a point. How do you distinguish a symbol from being a religous icon to a cultural icon? You can say that it is classical art or representative of a culture but that can also be said of religous works.

Of course it is there as an acknowledgment that our laws can be traced back to ancient greek democracy. Which is a similar argument that people are making regarding our laws and the 10C's.

Is it an attempt to equate religous artwork to classical greek artwork? Or is it an attempt to remove the statue of "Justice" and with it the reminder that our laws are Greek in origin and not Hebrew.

[Shadowy Man]

So, maybe it would be ok for them to have the Ten Commandments in the court if they openly admitted that their religion is mythology.

[Toto]

If everyone admitted that Christianity is dead and its god / savior a myth, and all the Christian churches turned themselves into community bingo parlors, and Pat Roberson got an honest job, I would have no problem with using the 10C as wall paper in the courthouses.

[dangin]

My problem is that the "goddess" liberty has more faces than a sorority house. On the Morgan dollar she looks like she's been at the buffet too long. On the standing liberty quarter she has a boob out (the first two years) and then it is covered. On the Peace dollar she looks different, on the V nickle she looks different, on the barber dime, quarter, and half dollar she looks different. How am I supposed to keep the gods straight if they look different every time they change the money, let alone all the statues.


OK, I'll stop being a coin collecting geek now.

[Toto]

The Great Goddess can assume many shapes, you unbeliever!

Besides, you don't know what diet and exercise plans she's tried in the past 6000 years.

[dangin]

Yeah but through it all her tatas have looked good. Actually, it is usually only a single exposed one that John Ashcroft has to shield his eyes from.

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by dangin
Actually, it is usually only a single exposed one that John Ashcroft has to shield his eyes from.

That's the statue of Justice in, appropriately, the Justice Department building; I don't know if there's another one at the SCOTUS building.

In any case, the Spirit of Justice statue has, at her feet, two tablets symbolizing... the Ten Commandments! And Ashcroft covered them up with a curtain!

[The Other Michael]

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
So, maybe it would be ok for them to have the Ten Commandments in the court if they openly admitted that their religion is mythology.

Or stand it on its head and tell them that if they'll admit that the Greco-Roman pantheon is as real as Jehovah, they'll get to claim discrimination.

cheers,
Michael

[Majestyk]

Originally posted by The Other Michael
Or stand it on its head and tell them that if they'll admit that the Greco-Roman pantheon is as real as Jehovah, they'll get to claim discrimination.

cheers,
Michael I like that one.

[joedad]

Obviously the Statue of Justice establishes Justice, just as the Statue of Freedom atop the Capitol rotunda establishes Freedom. The fundies are having a problem because they can't come up with a statue of god that establishes god, and Roy's brick would just look like a giant turd on top of the Capitol anyway.

[Gregg]

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
So, maybe it would be ok for them to have the Ten Commandments in the court if they openly admitted that their religion is mythology. I've always said the same thing about the Harry Potter denouncers! "Hey sure, you can read your little Bible stories in school--just make it clear to the children that they are fairy tales, like Harry Potter!"

[ohwilleke]

To a certain extent I think that the observation is correct.

There is a great deal of neo-classical statutary in Washington, and most of it comes via Freemasonry, which took a religious position vigorously opposed by the Catholic church and by many anti-Masonic Protestants. The Washington Monument, Statute of Justice, and the classical architecture of Washington D.C. (as well as extensive astrological games in major construction in Washington D.C.) were to some extent as much of a Free Mason affront on more traditional religious sensibilities as the 10 Commandments are on non-Christians today.

Two hundred years later there is room to argue that it is too late to complain, but if the law of seperation of church and state were as sophisticated then as it is now, I don't doubt that many of these monuments would not have been permitted because they amounted to government endorsement of Free Masonry as a state religion.

[ohwilleke]

Originally posted by Majestyk
Is it an attempt to equate religous artwork to classical greek artwork? Or is it an attempt to remove the statue of "Justice" and with it the reminder that our laws are Greek in origin and not Hebrew.

Our laws in the U.S. are as much Celtic and Viking in them as they do Greek, as they come mostly from pre-Norman customary English practice and from the invading Scandanvian's legal customs after the Norman conquest in the 11th century. Much of it, of course, evolved independently after that in England with European influence basically limited to Catholic canon law in personal property inheritance and marriage, and some commercial law (much of which was not Roman in origin). To the extent that our law does have classical origins, they are largely Roman and not Greek. But, Roman law impacted the English legal system of which we are descendants in the U.S., far less than it did the European legal system which "received" Roman law and made that the basis for their civil law system.

[Toto]

Here's another one:

Woman tells Texas officials to remove panther statue (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/6624083.htm)

"That pagan statue is an insult to Christians everywhere, and I respectfully request its removal from any local, state, county (or) federal property," Castillo, of North Richland Hills, read from a prepared statement.

Having just finished the regular business of setting taxes, patching roads and paying salaries, County Judge Tom Vandergriff and three commissioners stared at Castillo, seemingly bewildered that someone would object to the bronze statue of a sleeping panther - a symbol, to many, of Fort Worth's history.

The panther imagery began in the late 1800's, when a Dallas attorney, after a visit, reportedly claimed that "things were so quiet, he had seen a panther asleep on Main Street."

Such stories, whether true or false, later prompted city police officers to wear a patch of the dozing cat on their uniforms.


Is this going to be a trend?

[Majestyk]

Originally posted by ohwilleke
Our laws in the U.S. are as much Celtic and Viking in them as they do Greek, as they come mostly from pre-Norman customary English practice and from the invading Scandanvian's legal customs after the Norman conquest in the 11th century. Much of it, of course, evolved independently after that in England with European influence basically limited to Catholic canon law in personal property inheritance and marriage, and some commercial law (much of which was not Roman in origin). To the extent that our law does have classical origins, they are largely Roman and not Greek. But, Roman law impacted the English legal system of which we are descendants in the U.S., far less than it did the European legal system, which "received" Roman law and made that the basis for their civil law system. Granted that there were indigenous customs that influenced the development of law in every geographical location but I was under the impression that the foundation of English law was introduced by, the Saxons who, got it from the Romans who in turn, got it from the Greeks. Is this not correct?

[Majestyk]

Originally posted by Toto

Is this going to be a trend? Probably.

It should be easy to dismiss, though. Does the panther claim to be the lord, my god and command me to have no other gods before it?

[beejay]

Originally posted by Majestyk
Does the panther claim to be the lord, my god and command me to have no other gods before it?

I suppose it depends how long you've been off your medication.

[The Other Michael]

I want the Federal government to remove those pagan statues of Liberty and Abe Lincoln from NY/DC (respectively). I'm not a Libertarian, and they treat Lincoln like he's a God (he's even on some of our money, along with IGWT, so it must be a religious message).

And just wait until I work my way down to some of the stupid representational art in front of some of the Federal buildings - who knows what kind of pagan belief they are trying to promote? Probably Cubism for some of them.

cheers,
Michael

[DMB]

Originally posted by Majestyk
Granted that there were indigenous customs that influenced the development of law in every geographical location but I was under the impression that the foundation of English law was introduced by, the Saxons who, got it from the Romans who in turn, got it from the Greeks. Is this not correct?
I don't think there's much evidence that Saxon law came principally from Roman law, but rather that it sprang from pagan Germanic tribal custom. Roman law was a much later influence on English law, but never as much as it was in continental Europe. However, I'm not a lawyer and stand ready to be corrected. My lawyer daughter is coming to stay tonight, so I'll ask her.

Edited to add:
The point is that the pagan Germanic tribes had never heard of the 10C. They had an independent legal system. So murder was wrong from the point of view of society, but the penalty was IIRC payment of blood money to the family. And, of course, Roman law was sophisticated and highly developed long before the 10C could have had any influence.