Atheist Needs assistance

[Darwin26]

i know that the editorial on the Home page of the enclosed link is, well, just plain WRONG. Can anyone help in explaining to the owners of this site that Atheist is not religion, that their premise is deeply flawed. i have rushed off to E mails to the CONTACT on the HOME header. i suspect they are a bit jolted. Most of the stuff on the site is easily palatable. If anyone is a VETERAN that's even better but the the polemics of the situation need to be confronted. i am not nearly as brilliant as many of you on this board in articulating the in's an outs of Religion as it relates to the State.
Thank You, (yes, i'm a Viet Nam Vet '67-'68, WIA - P/H)

http://www.vetsforjustice.com/

[Jacey]

Wow. What the fuck, wake up startled from a weird ST TNG dream to see that.

I'll address it in the morning when I'm awake...........freaky...........

[PandaJoe]

My first thought- "Hey, they know about the EAC."
My second though- "Fuck, I don't think these people are joking about it."

My advice- Just ignore this barely coherent conspiracy theorist crap. They claim being Christian is illegal, schools teach atheism, evolution and the big bang are purely atheistic, and the ACLU is trying to create a new world order. They also seem to beleive that Republicans are evil. I doubt the number of people who beleive anything there goes beyond single digits.

The only good part was when they said that atheists would only see the monument as a big expensive rock.

[Buffman]

Darwin26

I suspect that this is what caused the opening diatribe of conditioned and total uninformed radical Christian propaganda:

(Extract from the VetsForJustice URL)

I have two children. A son 22 years old, and a little girl that is 7 years old. I kind of started over. My wife bought my little girl some cute little shirts at the store. I was called by the school and told one shirt my little 7 year old girl was wearing was "Inappropriate" because it said "When God Made Me He Was Showing Off" on it.

Yes, it's illegal for my little 7 year old girl to wear a shirt, even joking, about a God. All because of the ACLU and American Atheist Movement that is extremely active FORCING their beliefs, and way of life, on everyone else.

How do I explain to my 7 year old girl that she can't wear her cute shirt because the ACLU, and some Atheists, took away her rights?

(End extract)

The following URL provides the kind of insights that are seldom available from just reading an emotional recruitment letter.

http://www.ll.georgetown.edu/federal/judicial/dc/opinions/94opinions/94-5149a.html

(Extract)
Billy Ray Kidwell entered active duty with the Army in January, 1968. In August of that year, he was disciplined for being AWOL from his unit for four days. In January of 1969, he was detailed to Vietnam as an automotive repairman. While in Vietnam, he was disciplined for being AWOL for a day. He was also reduced in rank from private first class to private for carrying a pistol without authorization. Kidwell left Vietnam and returned to the United States in December of 1969, where his disciplinary problems continued. He was disciplined for speeding, and then for failing to report to duty. In September 1970, he was charged with being AWOL for several weeks during the summer, at which point he requested a discharge in lieu of a court-martial. The Army agreed, discharging him in October on "undesirable" grounds.
(End extract)

Here are several more of his efforts.

http://www.petitiononline.com/ajustice/petition.html

http://www.petitiononline.com/BK1949/petition.html

I was considering drafting a response to his opening remarks, but I began to smell a rather disturbed individual as I read through the entire page. I believe that the Billy Kidwell indentified in the URLs above is the same one who has started this organization.

I would suggest that each of the organizations/people he lists as
liars be sent a copy of that opening page. They may wish to institute punative libel charges against him. I don't wish to acknowledge his existence at this time. He is seeking publicity...just as Roy Moore is doing. Positive or negative is of no concern to him.

[Worldtraveller]

Buffman,
I don't know how you found that, but I think it deserves a..:notworthy :notworthy

Cheers,
Lane

[Buffman]

Worldtraveler,

Thanks! I only feel sorry for those that sign-on to his organization without doing a little homework first. I wonder if the other Veteran's organizations are aware of his efforts to siphon-off members by appealing to individual prejudices and bigotry.

[The Other Michael]

I started a thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61021) on this a few days ago - I guess that will teach me to bump things up more often to keep it on the front page.

cheers,
Michael

[RufusAtticus]

Notice that he forget to actually say why the school said the shirt was inapproprite. It might not of have to do with "God" at all. Many schools don't allow t-shirts with words on them. There are many things wrong with the statement "When God made me, He was showing off" other than the fact it has "God" in it.

[Godless Dave]

Maybe the T-shirt bared more midriff than the school thinks is appropriate for 7-year-olds. Or maybe he's just lying, it wouldn't be the first time.

[Darwin26]

so i joined Vets for Justice, i'm a vet why not. i actually got the sight from an article on The Nation, hey i'm flammming Now! just a couple of days ago... So when i went there for the second time this diatribe was on the HOME page and i'm thinkin...Woooooooooooa this is way off .

Thanks Buffman, i shall get into the details in a few min. Very impressed .

i was arrested and jailed in Viet Nam for carrying a concealed weapon! yes its true...the stupidest people on earth are MP's... ! Think about it. Anyway while being an expert at reading maps i was detailed by the Battalion commander to take a Boston Whaler down south to Vinh Long to get some maps from the Army Intelligence guys there (S2)

Now i'm on a ship in the Mekong and it's maybe 2miles to VL...a sailor from the ship takes me there...i get out walk down the dock to the first house and there an MP looks at me, gets me to lean over the car, and frisks me...ahhh ha my 22 pistol! (dad sent it just in case) any way it was under my fatigue shirt and ...a knife...too. i don't remember the dates but it Feb 68 the Tet Offensive had begun...!

i was locked up! i had to call my Company COon board the USS Colleton...an army barraks ship run by the Navy, for the Mobile Riverine Force. i'm in A Co, 3rd/47th Inf Reg, 2nd Bde, 9th
Inf Div...well the call signs had changed ! What timing! call Brigade, same thing, finally i had to call 9 Inf Div Hq to get someone to get me out....meanwhile the Troop ships got notice to get to Cantho full speed ahead! More good timing.

The Navy and Army put together a team, A Capt and 2 Lts to come down the Mekong and it was pouring rain now...to get me!

Well, i could hear shouts 'n stuff i got out and back up the river at least 5 miles now, we went, raining, soaked, finally back on ship i do the thank you bit.

It's all funny to the entire Company! and Then a month later a Court Marshall order comes from IV HdQ ...the Battlion XO calls me into the office gives me this stern look, reads it to me then tears it up!

...all for the want of a horse shoe nail...

So being arrested for a concealed weapon is wierd in Viet Nam. i thought i was the only one.

[Evolutionist]

i had a guy turn up to my school on mufty day wearing a black hoody with "jesus is a c***" on the back. i believe it was a cradle of filth hoody if i'm not mistaken. he had to take it off... perhaps he should have bitched about it like this person...

[Darwin26]

...just out of curiousity Buffman...however did you come to that incriminating evidence? ... i shall, if you haven't, put it in an E to him.
Just as easy as one can Set up the name Vets for Justice... and on apperance make it seem like an .ORG one can just as easily be brought down... not that i would wish anymore bad stuff on Billy Ray but it's to much of a trap not to be exposed.

[Buffman]

however did you come to that incriminating evidence?

1. A specialized background
2. A curiosity about and interest in individuals making claims concerning the military
3. Google
4. Research time

The same process I use concerning claims made about the founding/framing fathers. In plain talk, I'm just an old fart who likes to know what motivates someone to hold the beliefs, and say the things, that they do...especially when I suspect that those things are propaganda designed to influence the unsuspecting.

[Majestyk]

I've been working on a reply but getting nowhere. Each avenue that I approach brings me to the conclusion that it will be a futile effort. When reading the comments in the article I can only conclude that no line of coherent, intelligent, reasoning or blunt, aggressive, admonishment is going to sway the author in the slightest.

The only purpose for a response would be to inform the readers of the article as to the fallacious nature of its assertions (it's a load of horse shit). And judging by the rest of the articles at this site, that kind of rebuttal never makes it out of the "in-box".

I have decided to drop it. Although, the thought of a class action suit on behalf of atheists has crossed my mind.

[Buffman]

Majestyk

I think your analysis is right on the money. No amount of factual evidence is going to sway this man's faith beliefs. However, I do not think that a class action atheist suit would be very wise. My guess is that he is actually hoping for just such a thing to happen. Please note how he seems to revel in, what he labels, the negative responses from atheists as though those responses prove his paranoid contentions.

Personally, I still think that every organization/individual (the three attorneys) should be made aware of this URL and let them decide how best to respond. They have the specialized training/experience and financial fire-power to take him on if they choose to do so. One of them might even have the ability to find a deeper pockets organization behind his VFJ and internet band width. We don't need another diatribe about how the mean, nasty, evil, old atheists are attacking the poor, innocent, Christian, military, "disabled," veteran who is merely advocating for freedom of speech and religion.:banghead:

[Darwin26]

i'll warn these guys
http://pub49.ezboard.com/fvetbenefitsfrm5
and the Mobile Riverine Vets... possibly search for more.

Do you really think someone else is behind this guy? Personally i think he's just a rogue... But i sense he is the ballistic type, what with all the vituperative language...perhaps we should warn the FBI...seriously.??

[Buffman]

...perhaps we should warn the FBI...

For being a brainwashed believer? Nope! He hasn't committed any legal crime by voicing his personal views. However, he does flirt with ethical violations by making it seem that these are the views of an entire non-profit(?) organization rather than the ravings of just one person. That is why he needs all the publicity he can get as an aid in recruiting those of like blind beliefs. (It's like the Moral Majority/Christian Coalition propaganda ploy. The organization's name is the lure to hook the unsuspecting fish. The fish provides numerical mass and perhaps financial support for the organization to gain a measure of public respectability, growth, and protection from successful exposure.)

Many of the other statements he makes are very appealing... especially to many members of this community...including myself. If I had the time and interest, rather than poor mouthing him on that one blind area, I would probably attempt to "recruit him" by addressing the weaknesses in his claims about the people and organizations fighting for our constitutional liberties that he, and every other member of the American military, have swore to protect and defend.

Is there any specific radical right wing religious organization/ individual behind him? I have no idea. Based on his opening remarks, I suspect that some will give him a look. However, based on all his other views, I doubt that they would care to affiliate themselves with those. So you are very likely correct when you see him as just a loose cannon.

[Buffman]

Hmmmmm. What the hell is a "legal crime?" That should read "done anything illegal/criminal." (Oh well! That's what happens when I write without a draft.)

[Darwin26]

Geeeeeeze Bufffffffffffman that's English terrorism and we're gonna have to put you in our secret place for interrorgation...
Legal Crime Time with ashcroft :rolleyes:

[Buffman]

Been there! Done that! (At an interesting place 11 miles NW of Reno, Nevada in 1960.)

[Majestyk]

Originally posted by Buffman

Many of the other statements he makes are very appealing... especially to many members of this community...including myself. I agree. Much of the content, that addresses the stated purpose of the organization, is compelling.

However, after reading the rant against the courts decision, with the intent of finding flawed reasoning, I came away with a perception of dishonesty. I suspect that he knows that he is misrepresenting the facts of the matter.

It might be that this individual has ranted on the subject of veteran rights for a number of years and recently, thru his web site, has suddenly received a tremendous amount of positive feedback. Feedback that supports the issues that he promotes, more so than, the manner in which he promotes them. As is often the case in such newfound success, he may have lost his sense of humility and with it his sense of temperance.

It’s also possible that he’s a charlatan. Using the issue of veteran’s rights in the same manner that frauds have used religion and politics as a means to extract monies from the followers and attain the benefits of power for themselves.

In any case, his rant on the issue of the separation of religion and government, cause me to question the veracity and reasoning of the remaining content on his site.

[Buffman]

B-I-N-G-O :notworthy