history of pre islamic arabia

[shivalinga]

vedic history of pre islamic arabia

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aditichaturvedi/vpopia1.html

this is an 8 part series, to get all 8 parts,
at the end of the link, -vpopia1.html-,
change from 1 to 2 to 3 etc

[premjan]

doesn't all this strike you as propaganda?
we are in a hindu fundamentalist stage of thinking in India where everything is being attributed to ancient Hindus/Vedic civilization.

Nothing wrong with this kind of scholarship in itself, but it is hard to take it totally seriously. One of the problems is that Sanskrit being a language with very flexible word origins, lends itself to etymological roots-finding a little too much. Semitic == Smritic?? Maybe but it begins to sound improbable quite presently. That's the point at which a person might stop reading though.

The truth is that little is properly known about the dates of ancient Hinduism. Due to the secretive nature of Brahman scholarship, Hindus have not preserved historical facts very well, choosing to bury them within amorphous mythology and poetry. This ahistorical tendency does not permit precise dates very well.
Mahabharata took place in 7000 BC?? Seems like an attempt to predate the Semitic origin of the world at 6000 BC.
While the Semitic worldview with the Garden of Eden in 6000 BC was equally ridiculous seen in a modern light, this Vedic exaggeration is really not respectable at all. Hindus typically like to imagine that they are the oldest of all civilizations, since there aren't enough facts to falsify such a belief.

In a similar vein are claims that Carthaginians sailed to the New World back in the BC era.

You are reducing anthropology to pop culture (not saying that may not be where parts of it belong). This is the Hindu equivalent of Chrisitian beliefs in the "end of the world", "rapture" and so on.

[shivalinga]

you say that the history is not very well known,
that is not true, it has benn very well studied
and there is a moutain of data,
try these on for size,



http://www.tri-murti.com/ancientindia/rigHistory/indexRigHist.htm

http://www.tri-murti.com/ancientindia/mahabharat_astronomy3.html


http://www.itihaas.com/ancient/contrib1.html

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles.html

[premjan]

Well, obviously many scholars have been examining this information in detail. That is good. Some of the linguistic evidence seems to be shaky especially when using Sanskrit which seems to be a flexible language due to its being artificially constructed rather than a vernacular language.

I suppose some or many or even a majority of the conclusions may be valid. I hope that Indians (including me) do not find it necessary to put forward too many theories about ancient India in order to justify any current political action, such as building the Ram temple. I feel that too much breath has been wasted on this temple issue. All nations have such conflicts of interests and few of them think about it at such great length before taking action which could have been taken long ago, one way or another.

[shivalinga]

compare the theories and research
with the data to the alternate theories
or the 'established " theories.

you will find that the current "acceptable"
theories are based on less then an iota's
worth of data and evidence when compared
to the theories i have shown you.

there is and has been a bias,
http://members.tripod.com/~ramkumaram/article3.html

based on as the link will show, a desire to create
a false history, the theories that have been established
as accyrate have existed since the 19th century,
created by people with an agenda to minimize
India's role in the rise of european and middle eastern
civilizations.

Why ?

India was a colony, to keep the public on the side
of the exploiters the truth had to be hidden,
they were succesfull, but not all the academics of the time
were misled. next post i'll show you.

[shivalinga]

1.Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862), American Philosopher, Unitarian, social critic, transcendentalist and writer:

"In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita in comparison with which our modern world and its literature seems puny."

"What extracts from the Vedas I have read fall on me like the light of a higher and purer luminary, which describes a loftier course through purer stratum. It rises on me like the full moon after the stars have come out, wading through some far stratum in the sky."

"In the great teaching of the Vedas, there is no touch of sectarianism. It is of all ages, climes and nationalities and is the royal road for the attainment of the Great Knowledge."

"I would say to the readers of the Scriptures, if they wish for a good book, read the Bhagvat-Geeta .... translated by Charles Wilkins. It deserves to be read with reverence even by Yankees...."Besides the Bhagvat-Geeta, our Shakespeare seems sometimes youthfully green... Ex oriente lux may still be the motto of scholars, for the Western world has not yet derived from the East all the light it is destined to derive thence."

In his book Walden, Thoreau contain explicit references to Indian Scriptures such as:

" How much more admirable the Bhagavad Geeta than all the ruins of the East."

He even followed a traditional Hindu way of life.

"It was fit that I should live on rice mainly, who loved so well the philosophy of India."

Thoreau, the Concord sage, said, "The Vedanta teaches how by 'forsaking religious rites' the votary may obtain purification of mind." And "One sentence of the Gita, is worth the State of Massachusetts many times over".

Along with Emerson , he published essays on Hindu scriptures in a journal called The Dial.

2. Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), German writer and certainly one of the greatest philosophers of the 19th century. He was the first Western philosopher to have access to translations of philosophical material from India, both Vedic and Buddhist, by which he was profoundly affected.

"From every sentence (of the Upanishads) deep, original and sublime thoughts arise, and the whole is pervaded by a high and holy and earnest spirit....

"In the whole world there is no study so beneficial and so elevating as that of the Upanishads. It has been the solace of my life -- it will be the solace of my death.

To Schopenhauer, the Upanishads were documents of 'almost superhuman conception,' whose authors could hardly be thought of as 'mere mortals.'

He spoke of India as the 'fatherland of mankind' which 'gave the original religion of our race,' and he expressed the hope that European peoples, 'who stemmed from Asia,...would re-attain the religion of their home.'

He believed that the Upanishads, together with the philosophies of Plato and Kant, constituted the foundation on which to erect a proper philosophy of representation. It was the Upanishads' analysis of the self which caused Schopenhauer to stamp them as " the product of the highest human wisdom". He dedicated himself to this task, producing his magnum opus, The World as Will and Representation, in 1819. This is what he says in this book:

"We, on the contrary, now send to the Brahmans English clergymen and evangelical linen-weavers, in order out of sympathy to put them right, and to point out to them that they are created out of nothing, and that they ought to be grateful and pleased about it. But it is just the same as if we fired a bullet at a cliff. " In India, our religions will never at any time take root; the ancient wisdom of the human race will not be supplanted by the events in Galilee. On the contrary, Indian wisdom flows back to Europe, and will produce a fundamental change in our knowledge and thought."

Schopenhauer regarded the Hindus as deeper thinkers than Europeans because their interpretation of the world was internal and intuitive, not external and intellectual. For intuition unites everything, the intellect divides everything. The Hindus saw that the "I" is a delusion, that the individual is merely phenomenal, and that the only reality is the Infinite One "That art Thou"

3. Lord Warren Hastings (1754-1826), was the first governor general of British India. Hastings was very much impressed with Hindu philosophy:

"The writers of the Indian philosophies will survive, when the British dominion in India shall long have ceased to exist, and when the sources which it yielded of wealth and power are lost to remembrances."

4. Ralph Waldo Emerson, (1803-1882) author, essayist, lecturer, philosopher, Unitarian minister said this about the Gita:

" I owed a magnificent day to the Bhagavad-Gita. It was as if an empire spoke to us, nothing small or unworthy, but large, serene, consistent, the voice of an old intelligence which in another age and climate had pondered and thus disposed of the same questions which exercise us."

Repelled by the increasing materialism of the West, Emerson turned to India for solace:

" The Indian teaching, through its clouds of legends, has yet a simple and grand religion, like a queenly countenance seen through a rich veil. It teaches to speak truth, love others, and to despose trifles."

His famous poem " Brahma" is an example of his Vedantic ecstasy.

5. Wilhelm von Humboldt (1767- 1835), Prussian minister of education, a brilliant linguist and the founder of the science of general linguistics. Humboldt began to learn Sanskrit in 1821 and was greatly moved by Schlegel's edition of the Bhagavad Gita, on which he published an extensive study and which he pronounced as:

"The most beautiful, perhaps the only true philosophical song existing in any known tongue ....perhaps the deepest and loftiest thing the world has to show."

He thanked God for having permitted him to live long enough to become acquainted with the Gita.

6. Mark Twain (1835-1910) the American writer and humorist wrote:

" So far as I am able to judge, nothing has been left undone, either by man or nature, to make India the most extraordinary country that the sun visits on his rounds. Nothing seems to have been forgotten, nothing overlooked."

"Land of religions , cradle of human race ,birthplace of human speech , grandmother of legend , great grandmother of tradition. The land that all men desire to see and having seen once even by a glimpse , would not give that glimpse for the shows of the rest of the globe combined."

Mark Twain remarked: " India has two million gods, and worships them all. In religion all other countries are paupers; India is the only millionaire."

7. Dr. Arnold Joseph Toynbee (1889-1975) the great British historian. His massive research was published in 12 volumes between 1934 and 1961 as `A Study of History'. Toynbee was a major interpreter of human civilization in the 20th century.

"It is already becoming clear that a chapter which had a Western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in self-destruction of the human race. At this supremely dangerous moment in human history , the only way of salvation is the ancient Hindu way. Here we have the attitude and spirit that can make it possible for the human race to grow together in to a single family."


9. Victor Cousin, (1792-1867) French Philosopher believes that:

"When we read the poetical and philosophical monuments of the East--above all, those of India, which are beginning to spread in Europe--we discover there many a truth, and truths so profound, and which make such a contrast with the meanness of the results at which European genius has sometimes stopped, that we are constrained to bend the knee before the philosophy of the East, and to see in this cradle of the human race the native land of the highest philosophy."

10. Jules Michelet, (1789-1874), French writer, the greatest historian of the romantic school said:

"At its starting point in India, the birthplace of races and religions, the womb of the world."

This is what Michelet said of the Ramayana:

"Whoever has done or willed too much let him drink from this deep cup a long draught of life and youth........Everything is narrow in the West - Greece is small and I stifle; Judea is dry and I pant. Let me look toward lofty Asia, and the profound East for a little while. There lies my great poem, as vast as the Indian ocean, blessed, gilded with the sun, the book of divine harmony wherein is no dissonance. A serene peace reigns there, and in the midst of conflict an infinite sweetness, a boundless fraternity, which spreads over all living things, an ocean (without bottom or bound) of love, of pity, of clemency."

11. Rudyard Kipling,(1865-1936) British writer, who spent his earliest years were blissfully happy in an India full of exotic sights and sounds. Kipling was a Nobel Laureate in Literature, said this to Fundamental Christian Missionaries :

"Now it is not good for the Christian's health to hustle the Hindu brown for the Christian riles and the Hindu smiles and weareth the Christian down ; and the end of the fight is a tombstone while with the name of the late deceased and the epitaph drear , " A fool lies here who tried to hustle the east".

12. Will Durant, (1885-1981) American historian, would like the West to learn from India, tolerance and gentleness and love for all living things:

"Perhaps in return for conquest, arrogance and spoliation, India will teach us the tolerance and gentleness of the mature mind, the quiet content of the unacquisitive soul, the calm of the understanding spirit, and a unifying, a pacifying love for all living things."

"India was the motherland of our race, and Sanskrit the mother of Europe's languages: she was the mother of our philosophy; mother, through the Arabs, of much of our mathematics; mother, through the Buddha, of the ideals embodied in Christianity; mother, through the village community, of self-government and democracy. Mother India is in many ways the mother of us all." Nothing should more deeply shame the modern student than the recency and inadequacy of his acquaintance with India....This is the India that patient scholarship is now opening up like a new intellectual continent to that Western mind which only yesterday thought civilization an exclusive Western thing."

"As flowing rivers disappear in the sea, losing their name and form, thus a wise man, freed from name and form, goes to the divine person who is beyond all." Such a theory of life and death will not please Western man, whose religion is as permeated with individualism as are his political and economic institutions. But it has satisfied the philosophical Hindu mind with astonishing continuity.

Durant felt that " Even in Europe and America, this wistful theosophy has won millions upon millions of followers, from lonely women and tired men to Schopenhauer and Emerson. Who would have thought that the great American philosopher of individualism would give perfect expression to the Hindu conviction in his poem 'Brahma', that individuality is a delusion? "

13. Aldous Huxley (1894-1963) the English novelist and essayist, born into a family that included some of the most distinguished members of the English ruling class, says that the Gita is for the whole world.

"The Bhagavad-Gita is the most systematic statement of spiritual evolution of endowing value to mankind. The Gita is one of the clearest and most comprehensive summaries of the spiritual thoughts ever to have been made. Hence Huxley thought its enduring value, not only for Indians, but for all mankind."

14. Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947), British mathematician, logician and philosopher best known for his work in mathematical logic and who, in collaboration with Bertrand Russell, authored the landmark three-volume Principia Mathematica, (1910, 1912, 1913).

Whitehead is reported to have remarked:

" Vedanta is the most impressive metaphysics the human mind has conceived."

15. Joseph Campbell (1904-1987) was one of the foremost interpreters of myth in our time. Campbell was a prolific writer, dedicated editor, beloved teacher, inspiring lecturer, and an avid scholar of spiritual and cultural development.

"It is ironic that our great western civilization, which has opened to the minds of all mankind the infinite wonders of a universe of untold billions of galaxies should be saddled with the tightest little cosmological image known to mankind? The Hindus with their grandiose Kalpas and their ideas of the divine power which is beyond all human category (male or female). Not so alien to the imagery of modern science that it could not have been put to acceptable use."

"There is an important difference between the Hindu and the Western ideas. In the Biblical tradition, God creates man, but man cannot say that he is divine in the same sense that the Creator is, where as in Hinduism, all things are incarnations of that power. We are the sparks from a single fire. And we are all fire. Hinduism believes in the omnipresence of the Supreme God in every individual. There is no "fall". Man is not cut off from the divine. He requires only to bring the spontaneous activity of his mind stuff to a state of stillness and he will experience that divine principle with him."

16. Sir Monier-Williams (1860-1888)Indologist and head of the Oxford's Boden Chair said:

"The strength of Hinduism lies in its infinite adaptability to the infinite diversity of human character and human tendencies. It has its highly spiritual and abstract side suited to the philosopher, its practical to the man of the world, its aesthetic and ceremonial side attuned to the man of the poetic feeling and imagination; and its quiescent contemplative aspect that has its appeal for the man of peace and the lover of seclusion."

"The Hindus, according to him, were Spinozists more than 2,000 years before the advent of Spinoza, and Darwinians many centuries before Darwin and Evolutionists many centuries before the doctrine of Evolution was accepted by scientists of the present age.

17.Friedrich Maximilian Müller (1823-1900) German philologist and Orientalist. He did more than any other scholar to popularize philology and mythology, e.g., his lectures Science of Language.

Muller is best known for his series Sacred Books of the East. He wrote:

"If I were asked under what sky the human mind has most fully developed some of its choicest gifts, has most deeply pondered over the greatest problems of life, and has found solutions of some of them which well deserve the attention even of those who have studied Plato and Kant, I should point to India." And if I were to ask myself from what literature we who have been nurtured almost exclusively on the thoughts of Greeks and Romans, and of the Semitic race, the Jewish, may draw the corrective which is most wanted in order to make our inner life more perfect, more comprehensive, more universal, in fact more truly human a life...again I should point to India."

" I maintain that for everybody who cares for himself, for his ancestors, for his history, for his intellectual development, a study of Vedic literature is indispensable ".

" The Upanishads are the.....sources of .....the Vedanta philosophy, a system in which human speculation seems to me to have reached its very acme." "I spend my happiest hours in reading Vedantic books. They are to me like the light of the morning, like the pure air of the mountains - so simple, so true, if once understood."

18. Count H. Keyserling: (1880-1946) philosopher, author, public speaker. He is the first Western thinker to conceive and promote a planetary culture, beyond nationalism and cultural ethnocentrism, based on recognition of the equal value and validity of non-western cultures and philosophies. Keyserling founded the School of Wisdom in Darmstadt, Germany in 1920 based on the original Schools of Wisdom which prospered over two thousand years ago in Northern India.

"I have not found in Europe or America, poets, thinkers or popular leaders equal, or even comparable, to those of India today."

" Hinduism at its best has spoken the only relevant truth about the way to self-realization in the full sense of the word."

19. Romain Rolland,(1866-1944) French Nobel laureate, professor of the history of music at the Sorbonne and thinker. He authored a book on the " Life of Ramakrishna".

This is what he said about India:

"If there is one place on the face of the earth where all the dreams of living men have found a home from the very earliest days when man began the dream of existence, it is India." "Let us return to our eagle's nest in the Himalayas. It is waiting for us, for it is ours, eaglets of Europe, we need not renounce any part of our real nature...whence we formerly took our flight."

Romain Rolland thought: "The true Vedantic spirit does not start out with a system of preconceived ideas. It possesses absolute liberty and unrivalled courage among religions with regard to the facts to be observed and the diverse hypotheses it has laid down for their coordination. Never having been hampered by a priestly order, each man has been entirely free to search wherever he pleased for the spiritual explanation of the spectacle of the universe."

21. J. Robert Oppenheimer, (1904-1967) Scientist, philosopher, bohemian, and radical. A theoretical physicist and the Supervising Scientist Manhattan Project, the developer of the atomic bomb said:

"Access to the Vedas is the greatest privilege this century may claim over all previous centuries."

Oppenheimer described the thoughts that passed through his mind when he witnessed the first atomic test explosion.

"Of a thousand suns in the sky if suddenly should burst forth the light, it would be like unto the light of that Exalted One. (Bhagvad Gita XI,12)

" Death am I, cause of destruction of the worlds, matured and set out to gather in the worlds there" (Bhagvad Gita XI 32)

22.Fritjof Capra, (1939- ) the famous theoretical high-energy physicist, author of The Tao of Physics, The Turning Point and, more recently, The Web of Life. He is co-director of the Center for Eco-Literacy in Berkeley. Capra who studied with Werner Heisenberg says:

"I saw cascades of energy coming down from outer space, in which particles were destroyed and created in rhythmic pulses; I saw the atoms of the elements and those of my body participating in this cosmic dance of energy; I felt its rhythm and I heard its sound, and at that moment I knew that this was the Dance of Shiv, the Lord of Dancers."

"The metaphor of the cosmic dancer has found its most profound and beautiful expression in Hinduism in the image of the dancing Shiva."

23. Erwin Schroedinger,(1887--1961) Austrian theoretical physicist, a Nobel prize-winner, on quantum mechanics, wished to see:

"Some blood transfusion from the East to the West" to save Western science from spiritual anemia."

Schroedinger explicitly affirmed his conviction that Vedantic jnana represented the only true view of reality- a view for which he was prepared even to offer Empirical proof.

24. Nicola Tesla, (1856-1943) the Serbian-American inventor, electrical engineer, and scientist, used ancient Sanskrit terminology in his descriptions of natural phenomena.

As early as 1891 Tesla described the universe as akinetic system filled with energy which could be harnessed at any location. His concepts during the following years were greatly influenced by the teachings of Swami Vivekananda. Swami Vivekananda was the first of a succession of eastern yogi's who brought Vedic philosophy and religion to the west. After meeting the Swami and after continued study of the Eastern view of the mechanisms driving the material world, Tesla began using the Sanskrit words Akasha, Prana, and the concept of a luminiferous ether to describe the source, existence and construction of matter.

25.Dr. Carl Sagan, (1934-1996) astro-physicist, in his book "Cosmos"says:

"The Hindu religion is the only one of the world's great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which the time scales correspond, to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long. Longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time scales still." 69.

There is the deep and appealing notion that the universe is but the dream of the god who, after a Brahma years, dissolves himself into a dreamless sleep. The universe dissolves with him - until, after another Brahma century, he stirs, recomposes himself and begins again to dream the great cosmic dream.

Carl Sagan further says: " The most elegant and sublime of these is a representation of the creation of the universe at the beginning of each cosmic cycle, a motif known as the cosmic dance of Lord Shiva. The god, called in this manifestation Nataraja, the Dance King. In the upper right hand is a drum whose sound is the sound of creation. In the upper left hand is a tongue of flame, a reminder that the universe, now newly created, with billions of years from now will be utterly destroyed."

These profound and lovely images are, I like to imagine, a kind of premonition of modern astronomical ideas."71

26. Rabindranath Tagore,(1861-1941) poet, author, philosopher, Nobel prize laureate. He described the Vedic hymns as:

"A poetic testament of a people's collective reaction to the wonder and awe of existence."

In religion his inspiration was derived from the Vedas and the Upanishads. Tagore pointed out that Indian civilization was a "forest civilization". The essential continuity of the culture was developed and preserved by families living in small communities close to nature. " The ancient Indians distrusted the pace and pomp of urbandom; they distrusted it strongly enough to resist central authority and confromism. He further predicted that: "India is destined to be the teacher of all lands."

27. T. S. Eliot, (1888-1965) American-English Harvard educated poet, playwright, and literary critic, a leader of the modernist movement in literature. Eliot was awarded the Nobel Prize for literature in 1948. He drew his intellectual sustenance from the Bhagavad Gita. Over and over again, whether in The Wasteland, Four Quarters, Ash Wednesday or Murder in the Cathedral, the influence of Indian philosophy and mysticism on him is clearly noticeable.

In his poem 'The Dry Salvages', Eliot reflects on Lord Krishna's meaning:

I sometimes wonder if that is what Krishna meant-

Among other things - or one way of putting the same thing:

That the future is a faded song, a Royal Rose or a lavender spray

Of wistful regret for those who are not yet here to regret,

He refers to the Gita's central doctrine of nishkama karma, 'selfless endeavor' .

28. Friedrich Majer, (1771-1818) a disciple of Johann Gottfried Herder, an Orientalist found that:

" the priests of Egypt and the sages of Greece have drawn directly from the original well of India," that it is to 'the banks of the Ganges and the Indus that our hearts feel drawn as by some hidden urge.'

29. Johann Gottfried Herder (1744-1803) German philosopher, poet and critic, clergyman, born in East Prussia. Herder was an enormously influential literary critic and a leader in the Sturn und Drang movement. He saw in India the:

"lost paradise of all religions and philosophies," 'the cradle of humanity,' and also its 'eternal home,' the great Orient 'waiting to be discovered within ourselves.'

According to him, " mankind's origins can be traced to India, where the human mind got the first shapes of wisdom and virtue with a simplicity, strength and sublimity which has - frankly spoken - nothing, nothing at all equivalent in our philosophical, cold European world."

Herder regarded the Hindus, because of their ethical teachings, as the most gentle and peaceful people on earth. Herder's "Thoughts of Some Brahmins "(1792) which contains a selection of gnomic stanzas in free translations, gathered from Bhartrihari, the Hitopdesa and the Bhagavad Gita, expressed these ideals.

30. A. E. George Russel, the Irish poet, essayist, painter, Nationalist leader, mystic, and economist; a leader in movement for cooperation among Irish farmers; editor The Irish Statesman 1923-30.

Russel paid an eloquent tribute to the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita.

'Goethe, Wordswoth, Emerson, and Thoreau among moderns have something of this vitality and wisdom but we can find all they have said and much more in the grand sacred books of India."

"The Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads contain such godlike fullness of wisdom on all things that I feel the authors must have looked with calm remembrance back through a thousand passionate lives, full of feverish strife for and with shadows, ere they could have written with such certainty of things which the should feels to be sure."

31.Paul Deussen,(1845-1919) scholar of the Asiatic Society of Bengal, has observed:

"Whatever may be the discoveries of the scientific mind, none can dispute the eternal truths propounded by the Upanishads. Though they may appear as riddles, the key to solving them lies in our heart and if one were to approach them with an open mind one could secure the treasure as did the Rishis of ancient times"

32.Huston Smith, philosopher, most eloquent writer and authority on the history of religions. Has taught at MIT and is currently visiting professor at Univ. of California at Berkley. Smith has also produced PBS series. He has written various books, " The World's Religions", "Science and Human Responsibility", and "The Religions of Man".

Here are Smith's views on Symbols and Idols of Hinduism:

"Enter Hinduism’s myths, her magnificent symbols, her several hundred images of God, her rituals that keep turning night and day like never-ending prayer wheels. It is obtuse to confuse Hinduism’s images with idolatry, and their multiplicity with polytheism. They are 'runways' from which the sense-laden human spirit can rise for its "flight of the alone to the Alone". Even village priest will frequently open their temple ceremonies with the following beloved invocation:

O Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations:

Thou art everywhere, but I worship you here;

Thou art without form, but I worship you in these forms;

Thou needest no praise, yet I offer you these prayers and salutations,

Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations.

33.Voltaire, Francois Marie Arouet (1694-1774) France's greatest writers and philosophers, said :

"We have shown how much we (Europeans) surpass the Indians in courage and wickedness, and how inferior to them we are in wisdom. Our European nations have mutually destroyed themselves in this land where we only go in search of money, while the first Greeks traveled to the same land only to instruct themselves."

Voltaire concluded, " I am convinced that everything has come down to us from the banks of the Ganges, - astronomy, astrology,metempsychosis, etc."

" It is very important to note that some 2,500 years ago at the least Pythagoras went from Samos to the Ganges to learn geometry...But he would certainly not have undertaken such a strange journey had the reputation of the Brahmins' science not been long established in Europe...

34. Albert Einstein, (1879-1955) physicist. In 1905 He published his theory of Relativity. Einstein said:

" When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous."

"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."

35. Sir William Jones ( 1746-1794),came to India as a judge of the Supreme Court at Calcutta. He pioneered Sanskrit studies. His admiration for Indian thought and culture was almost limitless. Even at a time when Hinduism was at a low ebb and it was quite fashionable to run it down, he held it in great esteem. While he believed in Christianity, he was attracted to the Hindu concepts of the non-duality of God, as interpreted by Sankara, and the transmigration of the human soul. The later theory he found more rational than the Christian doctrine of punishment and eternity of pain. Writing to his close friend, Earl Spencer, in 1787, he said:

" I am no Hindu, but I hold the doctrine of the Hindus concerning a future state to be incomparably more rational, more pious, and more likely to deter men from vice, than the horrid opinions, inculcated on punishments without end"

Jones firm belief in the Vedas is challenging and at the same time illuminating:

" I can venture to affirm, without meaning to pluck a leaf from the never-fading laurels of our immortal Newton, that the whole of his theology, and part of his philosophy, may be found in the Vedas.

36. Paul Verlaine (1844-1896), The French lyric poet known for the musical quality of his verse, wrote the French poem, "Savitri".

Verlaine became keenly interested in Hindu mythology during his high school days. His enthusiasm was such that he said,: "Par Indra! que c'est beau, et comme ca vous degotte la Bible, l'Evangile et toute la degueulade des Peres de l'Eglise."

"By Indra! how beautiful this is and how much better than the Bible, the Gospel and all the words of the Fathers of the Church."

37. Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900) the great German Philosopher, poet, classical philologist, who became one of the most provocative and influential thinkers of the 19th century. He was deeply influenced by Schopenhauer in his youth.

He was very appreciative of the Upanishads and, indeed, contemptuous of those Europeans who, devoid of intellectual discernment, wanted to convert and "civilize" the Brahmans.

He found in the Manusmriti one of the source of his own philosophy of superman. Nietzsche so highly esteemed the Hindu text that he declared all other ethical codes to be imitations and even caricatures of this.

"One draws a breath of relief when coming out of the Christian sick-house and dungeon atmosphere into this healthier, higher wider world.

How paltry the 'New Testament' is compared with Manu, how ill it smells! One sees immediately that it has a real philosophy behind it, in it, not merely an ill-smelling Jewish acidity compounded of rabbinisim and superstition.......All the things upon which Christianity vents its abysmal vulgarity, procreation, for example, woman, marriage, are here treated seriously, with reverence, with love and trust."

38. Richard Waterstone, studied Sanskrit at the University of Edinburgh, journalist, creator of BBC documentary, author, comments in his book on " India: Living Wisdom"

"There is a striking resemblance between the equivalence of mass and energy symbolized by Shiva's cosmic dance and the Western theory, first expounded by Einstein, which calculates the amount of energy contained in a subatomic particle by multiplying its mass by the square of the speed of light : E=mc2. "

39. Roger Housden author of "Travels Through Sacred India" and a student of the spiritual traditions of India for over 20 years, concurs in his book:

"Time, for example, is intimately connected with the goddess Kali, which partly accounts for her destructive nature. Energy - in Einstein's equation, E=MC2 - is personified in India as Shakti in her various guises."

40. William Butler Yeats (1856-1939),1923 Nobel Laureate in Literature, described his first meeting with a Hindu philosopher at Dublin.

"It was my first meeting with a philosophy that confirmed my vague speculations and seemed at once logical and boundless. "

In his "Meru" written in 1935 - Meru is the central mountain of the world in Hindu Mythology - Yeats contrasts the peaceful life of the mystic, despite the hardships of nature, with the transitory cycles of creation and destruction exemplified in the world of man.

Yeats was keenly interested in Yoga system and the Tantra.

41. Stephen P. Huyler, art historian, cultural anthropologist, curator at the Smithsonian's Arthur M. Sackler gallery, in his book 'Meeting God: Elements of Hindu Devotion', defines Hinduism:

" Hinduism is a religion of individuality'. All Hindus believe that the Absolute is the pure blend of opposites, neither masculine nor feminine. The focus and means of worship are many, but the process has a common thread. It acknowledges one of the fundamental principles of Hinduism. God is a universal force, indivisible and yet infinitely divisible, the one and the many, the perfect mixture of all facets of existence

42. J. Donald Walters (Swami Kriyananda), World renowned as a singer, composer, and lecturer, founder of the Ananda Village is perhaps the most successful intentional community in the world. In his book " The Hindu Way of Awakening: Its Revelation, Its Symbols" says:

India, has accomplished in the field of spirituality what, in the world of finance, the free market (as opposed to a controlled economy) has succeeded in doing: The individual seeker has been left free to explore and develop his own spiritual potentials. Other scriptures have hinted at the deeper truths of inward religion. But the priests in every religion seldom quote those passages, which they rightly see as threatening to their institutional preeminence."

" The insights of which the Hindu teachings are based were revelation in the highest sense of the word."

43. George Bernard Shaw, (1856-1950), Nobel Laureate in Literature. Famous British Author and Playwright, of books such as Pygmalion. He remarked:

"The Indian way of life provides the vision of the natural, real way of life. We veil ourselves with unnatural masks. On the face of India are the tender expressions which carry the mark of the Creators hand. "

[hinduwoman]

Are the sources trustworthy? That is the question.

[premjan]

I think Hinduism is a magnificent belief system in the abstract and it is umatched especially for gaining insight into the functioning of the human mind, and even human family relationships and societies.

But it lacks a real existential backbone, the will to defend itself. In this sense, the kind of scholarship you are presenting is an attempt at regaining that sense of self-preservation which is shockingly absent from Hindu thought in comparison to the religions of other nations. The only thing I am advocating is that you do not merely attempt to refute the false theories of others, but make a genuine systematic attempt at correct scholarship. Of course, I don't know what is your relation to the people who write the articles that you are posting, so I am just making a general comment in this regard. The world is already full of intellectual junk and there is no need to add gratuituously to it.

[shivalinga]

i have zero connection to the people who
wrote the stuff i posted.

what do you mean an "existential" backbone ?

how does hinduism lack that ?

[hinduwoman]

Hinduism as a religion does have two tenets:
An eternal soul
No one possess the TRUTH when it comes to God and salvation.

That is enough to begin defending

[premjan]

The Sikh religion has a militaristic backbone. It will fight to defend the Sikhs and also to defend righteousness generally. Hinduism has been more lacking in this regard, with the non-violent philosophers appearing to take precedence over the ones who advocated violent action. This has something to do with the Indian personality, which is a little more pacifist (probably due to ecological considerations). Since the establishment of the Indian nation by the Mahabharata war, war itself has been sought to be renounced, albeit without total success. COnsidering the fact that Hindus would consider Sikhism to be a part of Hinduism, I think Hinduism is effectlvely considered as a meta-religion rather than a religion. It is a generator of religions and philosophies (I consider a religion to be very similar to a philosophy albeit a little more primitive in nature). However, it is evidently not a universal meta-religion, since it is not able to accommodate the semitic creeds. One could consider Judaism as an alternate religion generator since it has effectively created Christianity and Islam out of its own traditions, although it does not effectively include these other traditions today. There are many other less noted religion generators -- the animist religions.

I think the difference between Hinduism and Buddhism can be instructively examined: Hinduism believes in a soul, while Buddhism does not. This probably boils down to the difference between Krishna and Buddha. Buddha was an atheistic/agnostic philosopher while Krishna was a theist (he thought he himself was God). Jesus is similar to Krishna in this respect as he personifies himself as the son of God. Buddha is pretty unique in the ancient religious world as a major philosopher who disavowed the existence of God. In this respect, I consider him somewhat similar to the existentialist philosophers of modern Europe.

I think the cult of Krishna is the most prominent religion within Hinduism thought there are many other smaller ones.

I personally believe reincarnation to be an ancient religious dogma that cannot be held to be objectively true. Hence it is questionable whether an eternal soul really exists. However, many people believe it and this makes it true in a limited, subjective sense.

I find some of the linguistic assumptions being used to ascribe all word origins to Sanskrit to be unscientific hence I had a problem with that part. Generally I consider Dr. Subhash Kak to be a reputed scholar but he too seems to have included this kind of linguistics in his work.

[shivalinga]

first thing, there is no religion called hinduism.

that was an invention by invaders to describe
the religious beliefs of the people who used
the ancient texts as the basis for their faiths.

buddhism and Sankarism are almost identical,
they in fact do believe in a soul, but believe
that upon nirvana for buddhists or moksha for
the Sankarites that the individual soul or Jivatma,
merges with the oversoul or Brahman , losing
any distinction with the oversoul, which
is somehow both superconscious(in order to
manage the universe and laws of karma ,
deciding where you willbe born and how you
will recieve happiness or misery),
and non-personal,or an impersonal force.

of course this philosophy presents a problem,
it is contradictory, you cannot have karma,
reincarnation and liberation without
control over the mechanisms of each,
which implies conscious effort.

yet Brahman or the state of nirvana
of the two schools believe the oversoul
to be impersonal,without attributes,
with out distinction a force or field of
energy.

you can;t have it both ways,
there is either a controller of destiny,
karma and reincarnation,
or it cannot they cannot exist.

Most indian religions see this inherent
contradictory problem, and reject
both of those faiths in favor of the more ancient
traditional schools mainly in the tradition
of the Bhagavad-gita, the Ramayana,the Mahabharata,
and the Puranas.

[premjan]

from a viewpoint of society building and cohesion, it is better to believe in a creator or omniparent. Else there is no incentive for everyone to play nice with everyone else. This is why successful religious societies have this kind of belief in the creator. In India, you could call it Bhagavan/Brahma/Narayana.

Else God becomes more of a philosophical or devotional enterprise instead of something practical for society. I feel this is the problem with the native Indic faiths (since we cannot call them "Hinduism" this being a Persian term). If we consider Zoroaster to be a heterodox prophet from the same Vedic tradition, then we could say that Ahura Mazda represents a Vedic notion of a monotheistic God, which has been distinctly unpopular for some reason in India -- Brahma seems to have been usurped by Vishnu in popularity at a very early stage.

[premjan]

is quite simple: it has the same problem originally attributed to Buddhism: it is nihilist. It postulates the primary existence of a conceptual construct experiencable only inside the mind of a meditator. How does this construct relate to a plant, a tree, a leaf, a rock? It does not. It is patently anti-empirical in nature. It denies the evidence of reality presented by the senses. In this sense, it is preeminently an idolatry of the mind, the opposite pole of Buddhism which is a sort of negation of the mind and of everything except the vacuum. The most scientific philosophy for the modern day (drawing from the sources of ancient Hinduism) is some sort of empiricism, like that of Ramakrishna Parahamsa, who looked at the external phenomenal world and saw God within each animal, idol, idea, and indeed in everything. Scientific Pantheism we could call it, after the fashion of B. Spinoza (the semitic version is actually different, being more geometrical in its derivation).

[shivalinga]

you are not well educated in "hinduism",

better to be first well aquainted with ALL of the
philosophies of vedanta then to make claims that
all have the same philosophy.

most 'hindu" dogma is panentheism.

http://www.singlenesia.com/drtnews/cache/00000003/index.shtml

[premjan]

why are you posting a map of hawaii along with the claim of panentheism? Hinduism is more pantheist nowadays and less panentheist. In fact original Hinduism had a pure theist aspect also: belief in a creator God such as Prajapati or Brahma though there was also a polytheist notion.

Am I right about that? I think the pantheist/panentheist/polytheist notions are all mixed up together. There is no "pure" version as far as I am aware.

[shivalinga]

advaita= quasi pantheism

all the rest=panentheism

the advaita ,Bhaskara, or monist school is the only hindu pantheist
school.

all the rest beleive in panentheism, which is the belief
that nature is a part of god,god includes nature and
transcends nature at the same time.

like a virtual reality world , the "reality" is a part
of a higher reality(computer,user,etc.)

the map shows the nature of this reality,nature
controlled because nature is identical with god,
and at the same time god is existing as more then nature,
and controlling nature from a different dimension.

that is panentheism, and over 90% of 'hindu's"
believe that.

a small percentage belief that nature is identical with God,
albeit only temporarily, and in an illusory way,
ultimately the monists believe nature to be a temporary
non real reality, not exactly pantheism, but close.

[premjan]

is anyhow weaker as a belief than pure theism. so pure theism is preferable.

[shivalinga]

what is your definition of pure theism ?

[premjan]

God does not descend to the earth as a man, for starters. God resides away from the physical world and controls its affairs. This is the western model of religion.

[gsx1138]

Even though I follow celtic paganism I find Hindu fascinating. Unfortunately, there are no temples in my area so I can't go to learn. I would rather go to the source and compliment it with books than just get one side of things. I find that all the book reading in the world cannot present a complete picture without the human element. Anyway, interesting stuff.


Edited to Add: By the way, thanks for not coming to my door trying to convert me. :D

[shivalinga]

you are incorrect about western beliefs,

one of the most prominent Catholic theologians
Hans kung ,in his book comparing the philosophies
of hinduism,islam and buddhism to catholic dogma,
says that catholic dogma is panentheistic, and closer
to the dogma odf Ramanuja then any other faith,
he is not alone among catholics, many prominent catholic
theologians preach panentheism .

here is an interview with David wayne, prominent catholic
theologian and professor at the university of chicago.

http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showarticle?item_id=2269

also panentheism is quite popular among many
non catholic christians with a long history

http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/gchapman/fob/FOB04.HTM

also Hasiddic jews are panentheistic,
as well as kabbalists and others

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Judaism


also native american beliefs are panentheistic

http://www.stormwind.com/common/nadoc.html

[premjan]

I have heard it said that Catholicism is a knockoff of Mithraism with Judaic overtones and the teachings of Jesus. Certainly it contains a fair bit of Persian theology in it, due to the affinity the Romans had for all things Persian.

Also, that panentheism is a failed compromise between nature worship and monotheism.

Most committed monotheists: Christian, Jewish and Muslim, will unite against any non-monotheistic belief. Protestants a fair bit more than Catholics.

I think the original Hindu trinity had Brahma as the head deity, Narayana. Brahma is the God of revelation who is revealed by the vibrations of the universe. He appears as shruti in the minds of rishis. There is no enlightenment or faith or anything required for acceptance of Brahma. We are all automatically followers of Brahma by living in the world which is his creation, only that some of us hear his words more clearly than others. His domain is hearing and thinking. Ahura Mazda, YHWH, God, Allah are all names for Brahma.

Vishnu in comparison is not a real deity. He is known only when he descends to earth. You might even say that Vishnu is the spirit of Brahma incarnated upon the earth as a perfect mortal. For example, the perfection of Jesus is symbolized by his birth to a virgin mother (similarly Mithras). Also Rama, Krishna and the Dasha Avatar. Vishnu is the God of the phenomenal universe. His domain is seeing and devotion of the heart (bhakti).

Shiva is not a deity at all but a mortal who has attained God-like status through his own actions and merit. For example, Buddha is an example of Shiva. An Atman on his way to unity with Brahma. Shiva was not perfect to begin with but became perfect through his own merit and actions. Even Muhammad, PBUH is IMO an example of Shiva. Shiva's domain is introspection (the inner eye) which leads to transcendence and a dance of destruction (of evil).

Brahma speaks, Vishnu listens to Brahma, and Shiva watches Vishnu. This is the relation between them.

Many of the evils of Hinduism (e.g. too many holy men) arise due to our desire to worship Shiva and Vishnu rather than Brahma who is the only true lord.

[hinduwoman]

Vishnu was only one of the 12 Adityas at the begining. How he became so prominent is a fascinating question. One theory was that he was taken up by the kshatriyas.

[premjan]

I think it can be laid at the feet of Krishna. The story says that he stopped the worship of Indra and encouraged the worship of the mountain (Govardhan) thus vanquishing heaven and emphasizing earth.

[shivalinga]

it all depends on your data,and your literal or metaphoric
interpretation.

the vedas are the oldest vedic texts.

(om) tad visnoh paramam padam
sada pasyanti surayah
diviva caksur atatam
tad vipraso vipanyavo
jagrvamsah samindhate
visnor yat paramam padam

Just as those with ordinary vision see the sun’s rays in the sky, so the wise and learned devotees always see the supreme abode of Lord Visnu. Because those highly praiseworthy and spiritually awake brahmanas can see that abode, they can also reveal it to others. [Rg Veda Samhita 1.22.20-21]



http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1995_Jun_1/msg00046.html


this is a good history and lesson on vedic thought.

http://www.sanskrit.org/Ramanuja/Ramanuja&vaishna.html

[premjan]

Brahma is the personification of the Vedas themselves.

[premjan]

The Word, imperishable, is the Firstborn of Truth, mother of the Veda and hub of immortality. May she come to us in happiness in the sacrifice! May she, our protecting Goddess, be easy of entreaty!

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/books/vedic_experience/Part1/VEPartIChB.html

[shivalinga]

himalayan academy huh ?

i've been to their headquarters, when i
lived on Kauai i visited their ashram,
they worship a huge shivalinga made out
of a single piece of crystal quartz.

they preach saiva siddhanta, a south indian
saivite cult , not the kashmri saiva sects,
or the advaita saiva sects, they are in fact
a saiva bhakti sect, very rare in india anymore,
with few followers.

anyways, they interpret the vedic texts from
that perspective.

[Mike Rosoft]

And copyright violation, once again?


Mike Rosoft

[premjan]

what I posted was not an "interpretation" but a translation from one of the Brahmanas (the taitreya brahmana).

I don't subscribe to your form of relativism (all viewpoints are equal), which I think is advaitic in origin.

generally shaivism is inclusive of vishnu and brahma

vaishnavism is inclusive of brahma but not shiva.

and brahma is exlusive all by himself.

this is my preferred interpretation. it is possible to stretch it to make it fully relative and some people do, but the truth of such stretching is only partial.

however, I don't think that was the original intended interpretation.

[shivalinga]

vaisnavism is inclusive of shiva,

shiva is called vaisnavam param,
the topmost vaisnava,
and is considered a partial expansion of
Vishnu, like a human but fully
enlightened and intimate with Vishnu
Vishnu's female aspect in the mundane world , parvati ,is shiva's consort
so in effect shiva is vishnu's consort in Vaisnava
theology,according to Brahma-samhita.

[shivalinga]

at this forum this post gives a bunch of quotes
from Vaisnava texts concering Shiva's
position in Vaisnavism.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saadhnaa/message/3350?source=1

this is from the Bhagavat Purana,12.13.17

nimnagAnAM yathA gaMgA devAnAm acyuto yathA
vaiSNavAnAM yathA zambhuH purANAnAm idaM tathA
kSetrANAM caiva sarveSAM yathA kAzI hyonuttamA
tathA purANa vratAnAM zrI mad bhAgavataM dvijAH "



Just as the celestial Ganges is the most Holy among all the flowing rivers,
just as Lord Krishna is the Supreme among all Divine Personalties,
just as Lord Siva is the most Exalted Lover of Vishnu,
just as the City of Kasi is the most Sacred among all Holy places,
Srimad Bhagavatam is also the most fulfilling vow as well as the most elevated Scripture among all other auspicious Puranas.

[shivalinga]

here is txt 45 from the Brahma-Samhita,
it describes in detail the position of
Sambhu (Shiva)

http://www.dharmakshetra.com/sages/relaization%20of%20brahma.htm#45

[premjan]

truth is that these three godheads are not particularly vedic, although there is some mention to them in e.g. the rigveda. since vishnu (and varuna) are among the 12 adityas, they are basically symbols for the 12 months. So vishnu is one of 12 sun gods ruling over various months.

brahma is generally considered identical with agni (at least in the translation which I looked at -- Griffiths I think it was). Agni is the deity mentioned in the very first verse of the Rig Veda, hence one of the most important. Consider that Agni has an even more special place in Zoroastrianism, with their fire temples, whereas in Hinduism it is just the witness to the sacrifice. he is also identified with prajapati the father-figure and ruler of heaven.

I concur with the observation that shiva is the dearest devotee of vishnu. however, vishnu is clearly superior to shiva always: shiva is considered to have poor manners and culture (and strict vaishnavites will aver this). between brahma and vishnu, the proper relation has long been obscured. truth is that, in the veda-inspired religion we call hinduism, the creator has a higher place than the sun god (albeit agni and indra have the highest overall mention in the rig veda I believe -- indra being the lord of the middle atmosphere and creator of lightning).

moreover, the jury is still out whether nature is fully cyclic or essentially acyclic. science avers (and I believe, that there is a fundamental direction to the arrow of time given by the second law of thermodynamics). Hence it makes more sense from a scientific point of view to consider brahma supreme since he is the sole creator of the essentially directed and acyclic universe. within that universe, are many many cyclic processes and these are the domain of vishnu. man prefers the universe to be cyclic, yet his own life shows clearly that birth gives way to adulthood old age and finally death, an essentially decaying rather than cyclic process. The cycle is observed only in the genes and the memes, and even there there is an arrow of time, it is not ahistorical. Hence reality is not fundamentally cyclic. Symmetry and cycles are only a partial representation of nature.

This is my essential beef with a "Hindu" view of the universe which boils down to "everything is cyclic" and Vishnu is supreme.

[shivalinga]

your interpretations are not what experts in the
vedas agree with, you take the texts in a literal
sense when you are not supposed to, and vice versa.

Claiming that the vedas say this or that,therefore
the modern version is wrong or made up,
show's your education of vedic thought to be limited
to a few sources a best.

A better approach to vedic thought is a wholistic one,
insisting that literal interpretations of the creation myth
for example with Brahma as the "creator god " is not giving
the correct idea meant to be expressed.

vedanta is mono theism, belief in a single omnipresent
godhead, when the vedas refers to various " god's"
they are metaphorical stories to give an insight to the nature
of the absolute truth.

if you want to understand the Vedic theology better,
don't limit your study to such an extent, get more points of
view, your understanding will expand and give you a better
idea of what it is all about.

[charvakan]

I have enormous respect for Indian philosophy (as you might glean from my screen name), but I have to say that linguistic and archaeological evidence does not support the notion that the Vedic culture existed much before 1000 BC. Sanskrit clearly is an Indo-European language, which almost certainly originated far to the northwest of India. The Aryan invasion theory may not be exactly correct, but how else did an Indo-European language come to be spoken in so much of India?

As to what the "real" religion of India is, it's a matter of personal opinion. None of the developed faiths that exist today is really all that close to what people in India believed 3000 years ago, let alone 7000 years ago.

[hinduwoman]

But is Sanskrit really an Indo-European language in the way it has been suggested? The break from the proto language could have taken place longer ago.
Vedas could have ben written much longer ago than suggested.

[premjan]

it is possible that Sanskrit was a borrowing of Indians from the "Aryans" although I am sure it reached much greater sophistication inside India than it possessed to start with (e.g. Panini's grammar). I consider it likely that Hinduism has an Indo-Aryan patina but is not truly Indo-Aryan in origin. Sanskrit and the Vedas are the additions of the Indo-Aryans. However, the Indus Valley is not demonstrably Sanskritic in origin either. Probably a rough language called Sanskrit which was the language of the Vedas was imported into India (not clear that the Vedas are that much of a great contribution in my opinion -- there have always been two branches of religion, one for the common man who is more impressed with rituals and miracles, and another for the philosopher who is more impressed with shadowy concepts. The vedas are the former and the vedanta are the latter). I consider the vedas could have been a product of outside India too, while the vedanta are more intellectually interesting and were probably composed by a settled rather than nomadic people.

In any case, India has always been a great assimilator of cultures. It assimilated the Mughal and Afghan influence. Perhaps at some point in history, it also assimilated the Aryans in a similar manner. Since the Aryan influence is so pervasive through the world, I consider it likely that Sanskrit as we see it today is a settled Indian product while the Vedas are the construction of nomads (sages like Vishwamitra and Vasishtha were probably not the product of a settled culture -- but who knows?) I think that Persian Iran probably preserved the Aryan influence in a purer form (they were once feared warriors like the Mongols with their cavalry archers). It may be that the Aryans were good warriors who carried a seed culture of no great sophistication through the length and breadth of Eurasia through military conquest. Most of Indian culture owes only little to their influence however. Indian culture is largely homegrown although probably also assimilative in nature.

Why should we care so much for the Indo-Aryans? Is it demonstrated that they are the authors of the Indian genius? I do not consider it even slightly likely. They were probably warlike nomads who carried a primitive religion of nature worship to many corners of the world, along with a proto-Indo-European language. However, most of the development of the "Indo-European" culture has been in the locations to which it went, not in the root source. I think the ahistoricity of Indian records has left Indians inappropriately searching for vast pan-world roots which are neither true nor desirable.

[premjan]

I think vedanta is more of monism rather than monotheism.

[charvakan]

Premjan, that was a very perceptive post. I heartily agree that the cultures and religions and philosophies we find today must stand by themselves, and it is not fruitful to engage in one-upmanship over where and when they were invented. It doesn't matter, unless one is claiming that a philosophy is truer because it is older, which always struck me as illogical.

The consensus among philologists is that Sanskrit, Hindi, etc. are indo-european, and that the source of the language is probably in Western Asia, but the the evidence has to be reconstructed. The net is full of scholarly papers on this that are not written by partisans engaging in special pleading.

[premjan]

there are scholars claiming that the Indo-Aryans are from Latvia too. I think Central Asia is the most logical place since it is steppe country, and the Huns also came from a similar location in Roman times.

[shivalinga]

try these for a more accurate up to date
assessment of vedic origins and dates


http://www.atributetohinduism.com/articles_aryan_invasion_theory/14.htm

http://www.itihaas.com/ancient/contrib1.html

[premjan]

I like the first site. It definitely seems to contain quite a lot of quantitative information which is likely to be true. Hence, India is probably the home of the Vedas and Sanskrit, although descended from a proto-Indo-European culture which developed independently outside India and flowered into rather different forms elsewhere.

There may still have been an Aryan "invasion" of some sort although the people at the receiving end may only have been hunter-gatherers (e.g. hill tribes) rather than a formidable civilization such as the Indus Valley.

[shivalinga]

the proto indo european theory was created by
people to explain the supposed missing link
between europe and india, while researching
sanskrit it became apparent that european
languages were connected to it.

the proto theory came about because they would not
accept that indians influenced europe,
celtic language is indo european,as are the other
old greek and latin languages,Basque supposedly
unique is closely realted to south indian or dravidian languages.

http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/dravidia.htm



the obvious ,that indians migrated westwards
was rejected for various reasons,mostly political.

it can be shown that european cultures are based
on indian vedic language's and cultures,the
mythic proto culture has never been
discovered.

why do we need a proto culture ?

the belief in a proto culture has never been substantiated
by data, only backwards reasoning, the idea that aryans
brought their culture into europe and india is problematic
in that the history of the aryans do not describe any place
outside of india, add to that the dating of vedic texts using
astronomy you find that the aryan culture was well underway
before european culture ,making a proto culture
that invaded europe then india creating the lingusitic
and cultural similarities impossible.

http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Hinduism/myth_of_the_aryan_invasion.htm

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles.html


the various tribes during the time of the hyksos
http://www.originofnations.org/HRP_Papers/Note%20on%20the%20Hyksos.htm

the tribes which included hebrew speaking people
move into europe
http://www.geocities.com/hiberi/language.html

more on the celts
http://www.vedanet.com/HinduCeltic.htm

dna

http://sivaloka.tripod.com/aryan_invasion_myth.htm#WHITHER%20INDO-EUROPEAN%20STUDIES

[premjan]

To substantiate that the proto-Indo-European culture was from India, you have to be certain that e.g. the Vedas were transferred to European cultures. As far as I know, this has never been shown (other than for Iran). There are many similarities but I doubt the similarity is sufficient to show actual borrowing.

[premjan]

after going through the links you posted in your previous post, I think there is sufficient evidence for cultural similarities and affinities showing a common root culture. Did Indians migrate westward and carry their culture to Europe? It is possible that there was some migration outward and some export of culture. This sounds a bit like what happened in Buddhist times. As to what the extent of it was, and whether it was more of indirect borrowing, who knows? I suspect that there was more of indirect borrowing. Indian culture was a more organized and civilized version of all the beliefs that were otherwise floating around Asia and many of the migratory tribes who eventually went west and colonized Europe were significantly influenced by the settled Indian culture of the Indus/Saraswati valley. Probably they may also have been influenced by the Babylonians. There was commonality in the cultural (and perhaps genetic) root stock of Indians and the other Indo-European peoples. The precise direction and outline of migration cannot be ascertained with any precision it would seem.

[premjan]

as far as I know, the two linguistic branches (semitic and indo-european) are substantially different hence it is likely that they have always maintained a separate identity (it probably has to do with their ancestral habitats and ways of life which are also different).

I cannot give a lot of credence to hebrew lending to the celts (and irish) in that case.

Like I said, I consider the Indo-Europeanness of Europeans to be explained probably by early cultural borrowings of the forebears of the European migrants. This seems likely to me. Culture is easily borrowed without invoking a whole horde of people to export it -- look at the history of Buddhism, and also the borrowing of Japan from China.

[shivalinga]

i agree with most of what you said,
there wasn't a wholesale migration to an empty europe.

instead there were succesive immigrants bringing their
language and culture,and that blended with whatever
was there.

it's the same for what we see about the "hebrews",
their language was a combination of various influences
as well as their religion and culture and ethnicity.

they were not a single people,but probably much like
an "american" identity is seen,a confluence of various
cultures arrving at a common point for bettering
their lives, in the case of the Hebrews that was the levant,
and even as the torah states most of the tribes of israel
rejected moses and his teachings and continued on with
their tribal beliefs, even though they may have had a common
language with the other "hebrews", the various tribes
were diverse in origin and faiths, and had come together
and shared a common language for convenience,
much like English has become the common language
in india even though it is everyones second language.

so these "hebrews" who some were of the teachings of moses
along with most of the other "hebrews" who did not ascribe to
that belief system(which must have included aryans,babylonians,
egyptians etc) gradually followed the ancient migratory
routes into europe for this or that reason reason, bringing
with them their language and culture which merged with
the people they encountered.



thats my story and i'm stickin to it.

[premjan]

I don't think the genetic divides were all that clear. cultural evolution is more memetic than genetic in nature. That accounts for the fact that many Jews do not look at all like Bedouin Arabs. Anyway if you've been in the Middle East, there are many many "Arabs" who are as white as Ukrainians or East Europeans, some having lighter-colored hair too.