atheist magicians .....

[Leah]

... a contradiction in itself? May well be so.

Still, if anybody practising magick, while an atheist, or without calling specific spirits, happens to be on this board,
could you please pm me?

I've got a few questions, which I don't feel comfortable to discuss in public.

Highly appreciated. :)

[reprise]

I certainly know plenty of people who don't believe in a deity but do believe in mystical forces which can be harnessed through certain rituals. Is that what you're talking about when you use the term "magick"? FWIW, none of those people would call themselves "magicians".

[Leah]

Originally posted by reprise
I certainly know plenty of people who don't believe in a deity but do believe in mystical forces which can be harnessed through certain rituals. Is that what you're talking about when you use the term "magick"? FWIW, none of those people would call themselves "magicians".

your description is rather appropriate.
"FWIW" (???) ..., sorry, am no native. In this country one is being refered to as a witch/wizzard (which though includes the pagen traditions), or a magician (tarot, wax dolls, amulettes, talismanen, ...).

[triplew00t]

There are many Taoists and Confucians who do not believe in a deity but believe in Feng Shui and the I Ching... Though, honestly, most of the ones that do believe in the I Ching and Feng Shui DO believe in gods, there are a few who do not. I was one of them for a while before becoming a student of Zen.

Nero

[Leah]

Thank you, triplew00t

I'm more thinking of the direction:
Dion Fortune (1891-1946), also known as Violet Mary Firth,
who after having left the "Golden Dawn" (Aleister Crowley)
founded the "fraternity of inner light".
Fortune founded the idea that all beings have specific powers/abilities within temselves, ......

[reprise]

Leah, FWIW = for what it's worth.

[Heathen Dawn]

You mean "magick" as the "Art and Science of Causing Change in Conformity with Will"? (Crowley's definition :D). Well that would depend on the kind of atheist. Atheism simply means "no belief in gods"; that doesn't exclude the supernatural outright. There are quite a few pagan magicians who regard the pagan gods as Jungian archetypes, not real entities, so they would qualify for atheistic; but they do believe in spirits, mystical energies, divination and a whole host of other supernatural phenomena. Such people would have no problem with the concept of causing change (in the physical world) in conformity with their will. Witchcraft is independent of a belief in gods. Wicca is different because it's neopagan Witchcraft, it has belief in gods as part of it.

But the atheists you're likely to meet here on these boards belong to a broader category of worldview, called metaphysical naturalism - the worldview that nature is all there is, and that the supernatural is entirely fictional and non-existent. Under that view, magick is simply impossible. The laws of physics are above alteration. There are no energies or spirits that can be manipulated to drive a change in conformity with will. All behaviours, of everything in the universe, are immutable physical-chemical behaviours. "In the beginning were the particles and the impersonal laws of physics, and through billions of years of evolution, the particles became intelligent stuff such as us".

I'm a metaphysical naturalist and secular pagan. I don't do magick. I don't touch magick. I regard it as a waste of time. There is no evidence for any kind of efficacious magick. The only ties I have with the pagan mindset is my reverence for nature and a few secularised rituals I've appropriated from pagan sources (such as the calling of the Four Elements: instead of Earth, Fire, Water and Air I have Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen and Nitrogen, the four elements of organic chemistry).

Whew! Enough blabber. :)

[Leah]

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn
The only ties I have with the pagan mindset is my reverence for nature and a few secularised rituals I've appropriated from pagan sources (such as the calling of the Four Elements: instead of Earth, Fire, Water and Air I have Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen and Nitrogen, the four elements of organic chemistry).


I wish I could express myself the way you people can. I will eventually.
So you do experiment within rituals, and you gather the energy for what?

Well, these pracitses are not to be spoken about, and I do agree with most you say, ... except for that it works .
And that is where I seek understanding, it is time for me to develop further what I have been "playing with" for too long.

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by Leah
So you do experiment within rituals,


Yes. Paganism is rich in rituals; I just have to secularise them, to take all the supernatural stuff out of them.


and you gather the energy for what?


I don't "gather energy". "Energy", by which pagans and New Agers usually mean "mystical energy" or "psychic energy", is a concept of which I'm sceptical (http://skepdic.com/energy.html). Rituals, in my mind, are not for changing external things, they are for celebrating things to myself and the group.

[Calzaer]

HD:
Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen and Nitrogen?

Where are Sulfur and Phosphorous? We couldn't have higher organic life without them, even if we had all the C, H, O, and N in the universe.

What about Sodium, Potassium, Calcium or Iron? Maybe not a requirement for "life" in general, but certainly a requirement for humans.

(And for some of us, Lithium would be nice, too. :D )

Anyway, my point being your "four corners" is leaving out at least two seriously important organic elements. If you're tossing the "states of matter" elemental model (Earth = solid, Air = gas, Water = liquid, Fire = energy), why do you feel the need to keep to the number four?

{Edit:
I don't "gather energy". "Energy", by which pagans and New Agers usually mean "mystical energy" or "psychic energy", is a concept of which I'm sceptical. Rituals, in my mind, are not for changing external things, they are for celebrating things to myself and the group.

I'd be skeptical too, except I literally see the stuff everywhere I look. It's one of the things that makes me think I'm crazy. And no, the doctor hasn't found anything wrong with my eyes except a smidge of myopia. }

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by Calzaer
HD:
Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen and Nitrogen?

Where are Sulfur and Phosphorous? We couldn't have higher organic life without them, even if we had all the C, H, O, and N in the universe.

What about Sodium, Potassium, Calcium or Iron? Maybe not a requirement for "life" in general, but certainly a requirement for humans.

(And for some of us, Lithium would be nice, too. :D )


Jeez! You have to destroy a nice system, do you? ;)

Well, I was taught, in science class, that the CHON elements are the most basic elements of organic life. That's where I get it from. It made such a nice 4, just like the 4 traditional elements. I'm sure sulphur and phosphorus are important, but I have no additional directional elements (west, north etc) with which to associate them.


Anyway, my point being your "four corners" is leaving out at least two seriously important organic elements. If you're tossing the "states of matter" elemental model (Earth = solid, Air = gas, Water = liquid, Fire = energy), why do you feel the need to keep to the number four?


I make one direction (west etc) for each one of the CHON elements. That's what's behind it. Maybe I better change the quarters-circle to a hexagon in order to accommodate the two additional elements.


I'd be skeptical too, except I literally see the stuff everywhere I look. It's one of the things that makes me think I'm crazy. And no, the doctor hasn't found anything wrong with my eyes except a smidge of myopia.

You see auras? I can't see auras. I'm one of those people who have never had a single paranormal experience in their life.

[Calzaer]

I make one direction (west etc) for each one of the CHON elements. That's what's behind it. Maybe I better change the quarters-circle to a hexagon in order to accommodate the two additional elements.

Oh. Duh. Cardinal directions. I've been working with the abstract "corners" for so long that I forgot they're positioned on the compass rose.

What direction do you connect each element with? Maybe you could turn it into an octahedron by putting Sulfur as "down" and Phospherous as "up", since I'm sure "Spirit" or "Quintessence" isn't quite as important in your rituals as it is in mine (correct me if I'm wrong, tho).

You see auras?

Oddly enough, auras are tricky. What I see constantly are free-floating "threads" of energy. Wiggly blue-glowing strings of varying sizes that connect things to other things. It's basically a very fine screen of mostly-transparent subparallel lines. They get dimmer if I'm partaking in stimulants (nicotene and caffine being the main ones) and brighter if I'm partaking in depressants (like Motrin and alcohol). If I'm in top form, and actually paying close attention to it (rather than to normal things like my computer or my professors), I can see blobs of unattached energy floating around too. Those don't seem to get brighter or dimmer no matter what substances I'm using at the time, though.

Life, to me, almost looks like a TV station with just-slightly-off-kilter reception, if static were blue instead of white.

So yeah, I'm insane.

[Leah]

Originally posted by Calzaer
Oddly enough, auras are tricky. What I see constantly are free-floating "threads" of energy. Wiggly blue-glowing strings of varying sizes that connect things to other things. It's basically a very fine screen of mostly-transparent subparallel lines. They get dimmer if I'm partaking in stimulants (nicotene and caffine being the main ones) and brighter if I'm partaking in depressants (like Motrin and alcohol). If I'm in top form, and actually paying close attention to it (rather than to normal things like my computer or my professors), I can see blobs of unattached energy floating around too. Those don't seem to get brighter or dimmer no matter what substances I'm using at the time, though.

Life, to me, almost looks like a TV station with just-slightly-off-kilter reception, if static were blue instead of white.

So yeah, I'm insane.
See, that's why I wanted to dicuss this via pm.
It does drive one mad, ...well, almost. ;)
No, I don't see auras, I feel them.
People who ever met me, would agree that I have difficulties with physical contact, for the negative energy can be dreadful.
Whereas shaking hands with a person of a good aura, can easily lead to a warm hug.

I did actually reply earlier, but my comp did it's famous off-line trick when sending posts.
There are certain kabbala rituals that work with the star of david and therefor six sources of energy.

[triplew00t]

I am one of those stubborn old bastards that wont take anything second hand. But that doesnt mean I dont want to hear about it. Please keep this conversation public, as we can all learn from it.

Also, although I deny a literal continued "me" afterlife, or literal "me" reincarnation (seeing as I think there really is no perceiver behind thoughts to be reincarnated or to go to an afterlife) and that I deny gods (as are defined by most religions, though I am not against the idea of Kami and Native american view of god, in some sense), I am open to paranormal ideas like auras, energies and such. I just have never seen any firsthand, or irrefutable second hand, evidence. Until that time I will assume a negative on the first two, and an agnostic no on the last.

Nero

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by Calzaer
What direction do you connect each element with?


I haven't decided on that yet. :o


Oddly enough, auras are tricky. What I see constantly are free-floating "threads" of energy. Wiggly blue-glowing strings of varying sizes that connect things to other things. It's basically a very fine screen of mostly-transparent subparallel lines. They get dimmer if I'm partaking in stimulants (nicotene and caffine being the main ones) and brighter if I'm partaking in depressants (like Motrin and alcohol). If I'm in top form, and actually paying close attention to it (rather than to normal things like my computer or my professors), I can see blobs of unattached energy floating around too. Those don't seem to get brighter or dimmer no matter what substances I'm using at the time, though.

Life, to me, almost looks like a TV station with just-slightly-off-kilter reception, if static were blue instead of white.

So yeah, I'm insane.

This business of seeing energies reminds me of mediumship: it's so unfair, it divides people into spiritual haves and have-nots. That's what I like about science, it doesn't play favorites, everyone (well, almost everyone; not the blind, unfortunately) can equally observe phenomena. I'll believe in those energies you see, the instant there is an instrument enabling me to see them as well. Until then, I'm a sceptic.

[Leah]

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn

...., it divides people into spiritual haves and have-nots. That's what I like about science, it doesn't play favorites, everyone (well, almost everyone; not the blind, unfortunately) can equally observe phenomena. I'll believe in those energies you see, the instant there is an instrument enabling me to see them as well. Until then, I'm a sceptic. [/B]

not really,
let me give you an example:
Have you ever heard someone say about a certain woman "I just can't point down what is so magic about her, yet she is so .... <lacking of words>..." ?

Answer: It's simply her aura. Her true, kind and friendly nature and pureness of her heart shines through.

Whereas some people strike you as fakes, evil characters, deceaving.....

An aura is simply the amount of positive or negative energy that is spread by or that surrounds a being. Even the blind can observe auras. And one can gradually improve ones aura.

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by Leah
An aura is simply the amount of positive or negative energy that is spread by or that surrounds a being. Even the blind can observe auras. And one can gradually improve ones aura.

Are these concepts of "aura", "positive energy" and "negative energy" purely psychological concepts, much like "happiness" and "insanity" are? Or have they to do with physical reality, like heat and gravity? If the latter, then there should be evidence for them, and since so far there is none, I disbelieve. Never in a single person I interacted in my life, have I ever seen an aura or energy field. Again, I'll believe in it as soon as there is a method enabling everyone to see it equally. It's called scientific evidence.

Skepdic on Auras (http://skepdic.com/auras.html)

[Leah]

I wish there was evidence.
And I have been wondering in the past if it has to do with blood preassure or body temperature, ...., but there seems no connection of such kind.
You will also find that different people will experience auras differently.
Some "see" colours or strings like we heard earlier, personally I not convinced, sorry.
Some just feel warmth or energy, but that might well be the effect a facial impression or the personality in general might have on us.
Some though, see images, of suffering or pain,.... or images of bad actions, violence of different kinds, .... , ..... there is only prove, though, when one gets to know the person in question.
Again, such prove would be to you "second hand".

[Infidelettante]

I wish I could express myself the way you people can. I will eventually.
So you do experiment within rituals, and you gather the energy for what?

Well, these pracitses are not to be spoken about, and I do agree with most you say, ... except for that it works .
And that is where I seek understanding, it is time for me to develop further what I have been "playing with" for too long.

Hello Leah

There are two things in your reply to HD that caught my eye. {hi HD sorry to have cut you out} They are ‘ritual’ and ‘that it works”. You seem to have stumbled on two pillars of my spirituality. Let me explain them taking ‘that it works’ first.

Spirituality and religion are concerned with two concepts: truth and meaning. When one finds truth one has found meaning. This is not to say that they are one and the same. It is more so that truth and meaning are metaphysical compass points that show the way to one another. Just as it can be said that to find truth is to find meaning it is so that what contains meaning for you also contains what is true for you. The difficulty is in deciding how to recognize truth.

The variety of paths to truth is so great that it is daunting to even consider a search of them. We require some standard against which to judge them or the task soon overwhelms and we shrink from it in defeat. It doesn’t have to be that way. There is a standard I think each of us can deploy and use effectively. It is called ‘What Works.’

“What Works” is perhaps the most difficult standard you can employ in your search for metaphysical truth. It is the most difficult because it demands that you develop a deep sense of who you are and what your religious needs are. This sense of yourself comes with a determined practice of symbolism and ritual. In a sense you are trying to define your being. You need for existence to be meaningful and that meaning must be translatable to your life. It must work.

First you must understand that the difficulty is not in the practice of ritual. It is in your ability to accept and use what ritual reveals to you. Even the simplest ritual can burst open new avenues of insight that may be hard to take. You may have to choose and hold to a concept of the divine. This is not to say you must believe in a deity, only that you must acquire a sense of your place in creation. As your understanding evolves so will your sense of place and you may choose different deities to express your new position. You must find a place in the order of creation that works for you. You must find a place that is true.

Your relationship to the divine and the entities who inhabit it is an example of how we use symbolism to express ourselves spiritually. You will find that you are not comfortable with some deities while others will seem like old friends from the first moment you know them. Some deities will work for you and others won’t. That’s the way deities are. They will become for you mirrors of your subconscious. They will show you your strengths and weaknesses and to work further with them you must accept what they reveal to you. Ignore them and they ignore you. They will become powerful beings whose help you will value and who will ease your path through life if you let them.

Here I should take the time to say again that I am speaking of the use and manipulation of symbols. There are no deities, only symbolic entities we construct and use to reveal what is hidden within. You are dealing here with occult knowledge. You seek what is hidden. That knowledge is hidden within you and is released by means of the systematic and determined use of symbols in ritual.

It is so that symbols also have meanings apart from your use of them that can’t be ignored. Some have existed for as long as there has been social interaction among people and have acquired powerful and effective energies. I tend to gravitate to deities when I’m working out my troubles or trying to deal with some situation or condition I want to change. You may find other symbols more helpful. The thing to remember is that any symbol can be imbued with power and used to good affect. The trick is to choose the right one and that takes time, patience, and determination.

The use of symbols in ritual is an ongoing and evolving process that leads to a deeper understanding of self and so to a more complete and powerful use of symbolism to define your sense of being. Your self is the you that belongs to your family, your society, your culture. It is the you that is most fully and completely human. It is the you that can be set apart. Your being is the you that is connected to all things. It is the you that can’t be apart. It is the you that is wholeness. It is the you that is most truly divine. Ritual allows us to experience the divine self.

I hope you can make sense of this post. Despite it’s content this post is about truth as what works not ritual. Ritual helps you find what works for you but the composition and performance of ritual is a study apart. Maybe we can get into ritual next.

There is a request from another poster that this thread remain public and I hope you let it be public. There are things that some say should not be spoken about that should be discussed openly. All of us can learn from it. If there are things you want to question privately I don’t think any of us would fail to answer a PM.

JT

[Leah]

JTVrocher:
thank you, for your detailed reply. I shal read it a few more times until I will fully understand the depth of it.

First of all to my request of a non-public discussion:
When I started posting on this board an internet-ladykiller I know from another board who is also a veteran user here, spottet my identity (regardless my original attempt to remain anonymous), and kindly warned me of the "rather unkind nature" of the people on here in comparison to the really unkind (if not rude) nature of the people on the board we originally met.
So, although this board is so interesting and comfortable to me, I felt a bit insecure about publicly discussing something, I don't feel to comfortable about myself.
But since the amount of female pm's I got so far, the origial "well ment warning" seems to appear in a different light now.
So, let's discuss this in public, if you wish.

I have seen on your profile that you are a pagan, which gives us a pretty good basis of discussion, for I can not deny a multitute of pagan behaviourism within my daily life.
I have for the last few months studied pagans, pantheists, wicca, am still in mailing lists of pagen messenger groups (under another id), and have come to understand that , although simularities, wicca and pagan ideologies include the faith or trust in some form of god or spirit, which I am lacking.

What I'm actually seeking is, just like others have stated on this thread before, the understanding or prove or scientific grounds for what I have experiencing over more than a decade. The faith in some denity would be enough ground, but being as my abilities seem to be without the calling or recognition of any supernatural or spiritual power, I remain to "doubt what I do".

Being as it's rather difficult for me to express myself as sophisticated as most of you, let me explain with something I experienced this summer:
In connection with the lease of a property, a man I have never met nor heard of before, spend an afternoon at my place. We sat on the terrace and he told us that he moved from Berlin to here (a few hundred kilometers distance) for professional reasons, and because his wife had left him. Then he told us the story of a loving man who could no longer help his wife with her depressions. She had been sexually abused as a child by those who should have loved her, and now that she loved him, all this hatred went towards him. He trusted to have been an understanding man, but the help she needed was beyond his abilities. His mother was an active Reiki master, and he seemed to trust that a lot of that power was also within him.
What I saw as he talked, was a man that had been mentally abusing a woman, who had taken pleasure in her tears and weaping, she was afraid of him and had left him in utter fear.

I told someone (who was present at the time) later, what I had seen. And I got the classical reply of someone who truely knows me: "Here she goes again.."

A few days later this guy returned, for the key of the property and the deposit, and ...., as we were discussing the interior of the property, I mentioned that the toilet seat needed replacing. I was thinking what would fit into a rather posh bathroom. He replied that he already had one he was bringing along, and the image of this transparent toilet seat with barb wire cast inside (you hardly see them in Germany) forced itself into my mind.

Rather shocked I said :"You don't seriously have this transparent barb wire type toilet seat ?!?"
And his face changed colour. The other person at the table said that he should ignore my comment, for I was convinced that I could read minds, and gave me a pittyful smile.

Well, he had that seat, and he left within the next five minutes.

This is the kind of thing I seek understanding in, and I assure you that I usually don't say what I see, but seek prove or perhaps even try to find out that I was wrong (whereas I usually am not).

[Heathen Dawn]

JTVRocher, in your mind is it appropriate for a form of paganism to be without the occult at all? I call myself a secular pagan, which means I take all the (to me) amenable stuff of paganism, such as the interconnectedness with nature and the rich ritual system, and just strip out all occult references off it. How do you see it? Don't be afraid of offending me with your answer, I'm interested in an honest one. If you think it's not "real paganism", just say so (and I'll try to explain why it is ;)).

As for a place in the creation, I take what we know from science: I'm an eukaryote, metazoan, chordate, vertebrate, mammal, primate and human.

[Infidelettante]

JTVRocher, in your mind is it appropriate for a form of paganism to be without the occult at all?

Interesting question Heathen Dawn. I must say that it gives me some difficulty to think of what kind of paganism would be divorced from the occult. If your purpose is to gain knowledge that theism does not offer or that is unavailable from other popular religions then I would call you an occultist.

Knowing what I do about your present incarnation :D I can understand how you could hold that you are pagan and not an occultist. The knowledge you seek is empirical, it is within the realm of what is knowable to the senses and so is not hidden and so is not occult. I would point out however that you may discover through your empirical searching an understanding of your being that was unavailable through ‘normal’ religious practice. I could I think make the case that such understanding is occult.

I call myself a secular pagan, which means I take all the (to me) amenable stuff of paganism, such as the interconnectedness with nature and the rich ritual system, and just strip out all occult references off it. How do you see it? Don't be afraid of offending me with your answer, I'm interested in an honest one. If you think it's not "real paganism", just say so (and I'll try to explain why it is ).

I confess to a lack of understanding when confronted with ‘secular pagan.’ That said I could never claim to know enough about paganism to declare that there is no secular branch of it. If there can be spiritual atheists {I am one} there can surely be secular pagans. I have learned to make definitions fluid and malleable or else the universe of ideas is severely reduced. So, I will not say you are not a real pagan but would appreciate an explanation of why you choose to call your self one.

You might also explain how someone who keeps the interconnectedness and rich ritual system of Paganism is not a spiritual pagan. I think you try too hard to straddle the fence between the spiritual and the empirical and so come up with only half a world view rather that the complete one you desire.

As for a place in the creation, I take what we know from science: I'm an eukaryote, metazoan, chordate, vertebrate, mammal, primate and human.

Ah, the human talent for categorization. I try my very best to avoid it like the plague when it comes to my spirituality. And logic. And reason. I insist that I not put myself into too small an existential box. I see that you mark your territory by making maps that lead you to comfortable ground. This is not, please forgive me, conducive to spiritual growth. Sorry, you are not on a spiritual quest are you ;) in which case I amend myself to say such is not conducive to personal growth.

Yes it is very difficult for me to strip the occult references out of life and still maintain the meaning of it. I love the play of symbols that the occult requires. I find the construction and performance of ritual to be immensely gratifying. The lexicon of occult symbols stretches back to the beginning of human understanding. It is an effective tool in our search for meaning and is unmatched in its power to bring change to life when applied to the construction and practice of ritual. I am glad to know you have not given up ritual in your quest for the secular pagan.
JT

[Infidelettante]

reply to Leah


thank you, for your detailed reply. I shal read it a few more times until I will fully understand the depth of it.

I’m happy to help Leah. I hope you don’t mind that I’ve reduced your post somewhat. It is only to ease my poor old brain while making this reply.

I have seen on your profile that you are a pagan, which gives us a pretty good basis of discussion, for I can not deny a multitute of pagan behaviourism within my daily life.
I have for the last few months studied pagans, pantheists, wicca, am still in mailing lists of pagen messenger groups (under another id), and have come to understand that , although simularities, wicca and pagan ideologies include the faith or trust in some form of god or spirit, which I am lacking.

There is no need to hold that any deities exist to be a Pagan. In my case I often use deities symbolically but do not hold that they are real beings. The most important thing you can do is to continue to study everything you can find about paganism. The second most important thing you can do is put what you learn to use. “Do” is often more important than “learn.” The third most important thing is to give up the idea that there is a right way and a wrong way to be a pagan.

What I'm actually seeking is, just like others have stated on this thread before, the understanding or prove or scientific grounds for what I have experiencing over more than a decade. The faith in some denity would be enough ground, but being as my abilities seem to be without the calling or recognition of any supernatural or spiritual power, I remain to "doubt what I do".

Leah there is nothing that will upset your search quicker than faith. If you have no experience of god you have a mind open to your own experience of reality. To have faith in a god is to limit yourself to what that god allows you to experience. You must resist the easy path of faith. Faith prevents spiritual growth by narrowing the number of ways you experience existence. It restricts your ability to know anything but the nature of the object of your faith. It confines you to a very small portion of the metaphysical spectrum. Always look for ways to broaden your understanding and reject anything that tries to restrict it.

Being as it's rather difficult for me to express myself as sophisticated as most of you, let me explain with something I experienced this summer:
In connection with the lease of a property, a man I have never met nor heard of before, spend an afternoon at my place.
What I saw as he talked, was a man that had been mentally abusing a woman, who had taken pleasure in her tears and weaping, she was afraid of him and had left him in utter fear.

I told someone (who was present at the time) later, what I had seen. And I got the classical reply of someone who truely knows me: "Here she goes again.."

A few days later this guy returned, for the key of the property and the deposit, and , I mentioned that the toilet seat needed replacing.
He replied that he already had one he was bringing along, and the image of this transparent toilet seat with barb wire cast inside (you hardly see them in Germany) forced itself into my mind.

Rather shocked I said :"You don't seriously have this transparent barb wire type toilet seat ?!?"

Well, he had that seat, and he left within the next five minutes.

This is the kind of thing I seek understanding in, and I assure you that I usually don't say what I see, but seek prove or perhaps even try to find out that I was wrong (whereas I usually am not).
I can only give you my understanding and encourage you to find your own. Here is how I think such things as your visions work.

I hold that there is only one soul. We are not spiritual beings encased in flesh. We are material beings swimming in soul. Without matter soul is impotent. Without soul matter is inanimate. There can be no struggle between matter and soul, as the theists would have it, rather the two are interdependent and fused.

As there is but one soul which we are all expressions of we are connected through it to one another and to all things. As we are connected by the soul it is possible that some who are so tuned can have knowledge of others that could not be known otherwise. I hold that all of us are tuned at times and at times we are not. We may be tuned to certain individuals who resonate with us or we may be tuned to the vast number of lives in soul and pick up bits and pieces as you would when tuning a radio. And it may work both ways at different times. Or it may be a mystery we should appreciate and not try to understand.
JT

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by JTVrocher
Interesting question Heathen Dawn. I must say that it gives me some difficulty to think of what kind of paganism would be divorced from the occult. If your purpose is to gain knowledge that theism does not offer or that is unavailable from other popular religions then I would call you an occultist.


The occult is something that I strive to avoid. If I had any love or liking for the occult, I would be where I was a few years ago: a monotheist. Yes, a few years ago I had a hidden god all my own, the god of Judaism. Such a god is as occult as one can get. The practitioner of Judaism, like the practitioner of Christianity or Islam, is told not to worship things of nature, but only a hidden creator of them. So there I was, striving for the hidden, occult god of Judaism in the yeshivah (Talmud study) all day long, fruitlessly; and then, at night, leaving the yeshivah, I saw the beauty of the stars above, the brown trees and their green leaves. How marvelous a sight! What need for an occult god, or plural occult gods, when Nature is before you? This, worship of nature, of the seen things, of the creation instead of hidden creators, is where my paganism comes in.


Knowing what I do about your present incarnation :D I can understand how you could hold that you are pagan and not an occultist. The knowledge you seek is empirical, it is within the realm of what is knowable to the senses and so is not hidden and so is not occult. I would point out however that you may discover through your empirical searching an understanding of your being that was unavailable through ‘normal’ religious practice. I could I think make the case that such understanding is occult.


My approach to spirituality is the antithesis of occultism and symbolism. I'm a literalist. What is put in front of my senses is my source of spirituality. Green, green nature is my god and goddess. The wind and the rain are my Holy Scriptures. I need no more than that.


I confess to a lack of understanding when confronted with 'secular pagan.' That said I could never claim to know enough about paganism to declare that there is no secular branch of it. If there can be spiritual atheists {I am one} there can surely be secular pagans. I have learned to make definitions fluid and malleable or else the universe of ideas is severely reduced. So, I will not say you are not a real pagan but would appreciate an explanation of why you choose to call your self one.


Secular is worldly. Secular is one who doesn't seek hidden worlds or afterlives. To me, it is quite unfortunate that paganism has become tied up with the occult, but mine is not the authority to argue with the trends of religion; but my ties with paganism are real. I may not have the old gods at my disposal as supernaturalist pagans do, but I have the essential trait of seeking to be in tune with nature. The word paganus comes from Latin for "country dweller"; though I am a man of the city, the cycles of nature are not lost on me. I often stay awake at dawn to hear the chorus of the birds; it is to me the most sacred part of the day, hence my screen name. I call myself "heathen" because that word is common to both atheists and pagans.


You might also explain how someone who keeps the interconnectedness and rich ritual system of Paganism is not a spiritual pagan. I think you try too hard to straddle the fence between the spiritual and the empirical and so come up with only half a world view rather that the complete one you desire.


Did I say I wasn't spiritual? Hardly! I just said I was secular. All it means is my spirituality isn't based on the supernatural, on the hidden. That's the beauty of being a secular pagan: being spiritual without giving up rationality. I have my cake and keep it too.


Ah, the human talent for categorization. I try my very best to avoid it like the plague when it comes to my spirituality. And logic. And reason. I insist that I not put myself into too small an existential box. I see that you mark your territory by making maps that lead you to comfortable ground. This is not, please forgive me, conducive to spiritual growth. Sorry, you are not on a spiritual quest are you ;) in which case I amend myself to say such is not conducive to personal growth.


We've already come to the conclusion we have a difference of styles. If you have a problem with inserting rationality into your spiritual quest, then who am I to argue with that? But I'm not a believer; I simply can't bring myself to believe in gods, afterlife and the supernatural at large. But I also have emotional, spiritual needs to fill. So what do I do? Take the literalist, nonsupernatural approach to spirituality. Instead of Genesis I have the Big Bang and evolution. I think it's much better that way!


Yes it is very difficult for me to strip the occult references out of life and still maintain the meaning of it. I love the play of symbols that the occult requires. I find the construction and performance of ritual to be immensely gratifying. The lexicon of occult symbols stretches back to the beginning of human understanding. It is an effective tool in our search for meaning and is unmatched in its power to bring change to life when applied to the construction and practice of ritual. I am glad to know you have not given up ritual in your quest for the secular pagan.
JT

Ritual is important. It's about living out the connection. So much of life passes by the vicinity of nature without noticing it. Ritual helps to remember, to live out every moment of closeness to the holiness. Actually I fear the term "ritual" has a connotation of roteness, which is the opposite of what I intend it to be. When I was a monotheist I used to recite prayers out of a prayer-book, so that after 30 times or so it became mechanical, and I loathed it immensely; perish the thought that nature rituals should become something like that. That's why I'm glad paganism has such a rich store of rituals, with lots of opportunities for creating them anew. The key to all liveliness and spirituality is transformation.

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Nice post Heathen Dawn.

What can I add to that?
You have a way of putting it.:)

And don't worry about the 'trends of religion'; secular paganism is taking off as a trend itself.

With a little help from us, of course

;)

[Leah]

Originally posted by JTVrocher
reply to Leah
I’m happy to help Leah. I hope you don’t mind that I’ve reduced your post somewhat. It is only to ease my poor old brain while making this reply.
Not at all. i do this constantly, to reduce the quote down to my point of reference. (hope I haven't offened anyone with this in the past)

There is no need to hold that any deities exist to be a Pagan. In my case I often use deities symbolically but do not hold that they are real beings. The most important thing you can do is to continue to study everything you can find about paganism. The second most important thing you can do is put what you learn to use. “Do” is often more important than “learn.” The third most important thing is to give up the idea that there is a right way and a wrong way to be a pagan.
I do spend a considerable time on the subject, but the provided insight can at times be contradicting.
Due to my kinestetic mind patterns "doing" is inevitable in oder to learn.
In my studies, though, my attempts to learn about pagans constantly lead also to pantheists. Even my direct approach of raising the question 'whether there is a direct link between pagan- and pantheist ideology' failed to be answered fullfillingly so far. Perhaps you can help me out there.
For while I see the natural path of being within many of the pagan ideologies and also within the conduct of pagans themselves, my experience with followers of the pantheist ideology (I don't wish to offend anyone with this statement) not particularly contributes in my understanding of the balance "words and actions".
To me any spiritual path of life doesn't neccessarily need to provide the scientific grounds for its function, but it should by all means be reflected by its followers through ethnics, goodness and fair conduct not only towards nature but also human kind. Therefore I have dismissed pantheism.

Leah there is nothing that will upset your search quicker than faith. If you have no experience of god you have a mind open to your own experience of reality. To have faith in a god is to limit yourself to what that god allows you to experience. You must resist the easy path of faith. Faith prevents spiritual growth by narrowing the number of ways you experience existence. It restricts your ability to know anything but the nature of the object of your faith. It confines you to a very small portion of the metaphysical spectrum. Always look for ways to broaden your understanding and reject anything that tries to restrict it.
Unfortunately I can not provide an open mind here, for I have experienced probably one of the most thorough biblical educations over two decades, and have come to fear the (to me) evil nature of the god of the bible. So, when an ideology is based upon the tyranny/dictatorship of one devinity, I see the same restriction of abilities as you state above.

I hold that there is only one soul. We are not spiritual beings encased in flesh. We are material beings swimming in soul. Without matter soul is impotent. Without soul matter is inanimate. There can be no struggle between matter and soul, as the theists would have it, rather the two are interdependent and fused.
As there is but one soul which we are all expressions of we are connected through it to one another and to all things. As we are connected by the soul it is possible that some who are so tuned can have knowledge of others that could not be known otherwise. I hold that all of us are tuned at times and at times we are not. We may be tuned to certain individuals who resonate with us or we may be tuned to the vast number of lives in soul and pick up bits and pieces as you would when tuning a radio. And it may work both ways at different times. Or it may be a mystery we should appreciate and not try to understand.
JT
Trust me, it is an ability I'd willingly part from anytime. But accepting it's presence might be more rewarding than constantly trying to doubt it.

Thank you very much for your thorough replies and time you invest on this. :)

[Leah]

My thanks to catalyst who kindly send me a link providing a scientific explanation.
The majority of features of this phenomena show parallels to my experiences.
"... is "abnormal" only in being statistically rare. It is, in fact, a normal brain process that is prematurely displayed to consciousness in a minority of individuals."

I shal do more reading on this, thank you so much. :)

[Heathen Dawn]

Originally posted by Aquila ka Hecate
Nice post Heathen Dawn.

What can I add to that?
You have a way of putting it.:)

And don't worry about the 'trends of religion'; secular paganism is taking off as a trend itself.

With a little help from us, of course

;)

Thank ye, thank ye :D

I've even started a thread on the subject on MysticWicks Pagan Forums (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=32267). It's a nice pagan discussion board I found simply by typing "paganforums.org" into the address bar. MzNeko is there already.