A difficult God(s) question [atleast for me]

[Atheistindevelopment]

Ok i am in the process of departing a religious order in which i was there in the first place because my family has been part of it for a long time and multiple generations. I don't believe in it but i am lacking sound arguments against them. I am hoping that someone reads this and gives me a good perspective from which i can base my own arguments by.(something i haven't tought of)

The main thing here is that my family are very centered on this order (Rosa cruxis - not the california based ca$h in, another one), My granfather was the founder of the temple in my region, and for me is rather difficult to face them with my beliefs(or lack of) since they are my family, and i want to really set them straight with sound arguments so that i don't have all of my cousins, aunts, etc. excluding me from their lives because they don't understand why i don't show up at the temple no more.

To shed a little light of the Rosa Cruxis, they are an order that has existed from 1500 something. They believe in a collective entity they call Masters. This masters are the souls of reincarnated people that have reached a god-level-like-status and serve as guide to us all in our lives to achieve our goals before the next reincarnation. Basically saying that all mayor leaders[jesus, buddha, etc.] of different religions have been a high level reincarnation of these masters. Another note is that they believe we reincarnate from other planets as well, so it more like a universal thing. They conduct weird rituals, i don't have clearance to see most of them, like looking at your true self and determining where your soul[planet] came from and what were your past lifes like. [Much like Brian Weiss] There is more info but i can't recall all of it right now. What we basically do is every two weeks people get together talk about ourselves hear some bits of information and weird tales and that's it. They act secretive don't let you answer questions and are basically testing loyalties to then reveal more information its been like that for years. The leader of the temple, my grandfather has been dead for years now, is an able palm and mind reader, he has succesfully guessed many things about my life that have happened and what i thougth as well as previous events in my life. They say my grandfather had these abilities as well in addition to being a medium. Wheter i believe or not in the order doesn't disprove what the leader has guessed and other weird events that have ocurred, but i don't believe in the order and i wouldn't by those events alone.[anyone has an explanation how can someone else read my mind and know these things?]

Also is there a posibility that this Masters exist? Can a human perpetuate after death? If so to a level of reaching this god-level-status?

[premjan]

it is a primitive attempt to give meaning to life. It has more to do with the hardware and software pecularities of human beings, and with getting a bright-eyed bushy-tailed feeling after practising "secret rituals" than with any objective measurable reality other than human behavior itself.

Stay out of this crap or do it noncommittally for fun.

[Hedshaker]

That sounds a little like Scientology, itself a whacko sect who's followers believe in a strange thinking system invented by a science fiction writer.

I would say no, the Masters do not exist. Also, do a google on cold reading and skepticsm or, better yet, check out James Randi's site. Mediumship/mind reading etc. has not been proved. It's a trick.

Get out of there dude. Reality is a better and truer place to be, IMHO.

Good luck ;)

bya

[pmurray]

Hi. This business of not telling you everything is a classic way that these organisations work. Scientology, for instance, dose the same thing. By the time you get enough information to know for sure that it is all a con, you have invested way too much time and money to enable you to admit it to yourself.

It's good to hear that you have worked out for yourself that it is obvious bullshit. Ask yourself this: if there were "ascended masters", or whatever, would they really be wasting their time on these people?

That's one thing I remember from my fundie christian days. We used to sing songs about how we would "shake this city", how we would dor these huge spiritual things for God, and none of it ever happened. It got to the point when on hereing this kind of preaching, I would look around the room and think to myself, "these people are not world-changers".

Each generation of teenagers would be told in turn that they would go on to do great things in God, and each generation in turn would pair up, get a car, a mortgage and a pair of jobs, and proceed to pop out a few sprogs and struggle through life like everyone else.

So, yeah I'd bet that your incestuous little group is every bit as much blowing smoke up each other's asses. As for arguments, meantion a couple and I'm sure people would be keen to knock them down.

PS: "rosy cross", and its variants (Rosa Crucis, Rosicrucianinsm etc etc) is a concept from sex magick. The cross represents the phallus, and the rose the vulva. You get the same image in the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

[Division By Zero]

Also is there a posibility that this Masters exist? Can a human perpetuate after death? If so to a level of reaching this god-level-status?
No.

Okay, okay, so it's possible. Just about anything could happen. But there's no more reason to believe in this Masters reincarnation nonsense than there is to believe that your computer is operated by microscopic invisible purple space monkeys playing soccer with the electrons.

[Heathen Dawn]

Of course it's possible. But what does the EVIDENCE say?

For us thinking people,
There is but one sieve
Capable of separating
Myth from reality.

If a man make a claim,
There is but one demand of him:
Bring thou the evidence,
By which thy claims be known true.

Rabbis, Magus55, New Agers, Rosicrucians - I've heard them all. Each of them claims insight into the hidden worlds and the afterlife. Every one contradicts the other. Evidence alone is the arbiter between their conflicting claims.

[Jobar]

Hi, trainee, and welcome. We normally see people here who are escaping from more mainstream religions, but as it happens, I just recently (as in last week!) read about AMORC in the book Bigger Secrets, by William Poundstone:

"The Rosicrucians have a muddled history that their publications do little to clarify. Their literature blandly asserts that they go back to the Eighteenth Dynasty of ancient Egypt (about 1350 BC). And they claim that Jesus, Benjamin Franklin, Isaac Newton, Renee Descartes, Leibnitz, Plato, Balzac Francis Bacon, St. Thomas Aquinas, and Aristotle were all members.

Well, heck. Outside sources say the group was started by a guy named H. Spencer Lewis in 1915. AD. Lewis was a spiritualist who claimed to be a Ph.D. but never attended college. The Rosicrucians were as substantial as Middle Earth until Lewis cribbed the name from a seventeenth-century pamphlet. He claimed special authority from certain Eastern masters to found the order in the Americas."

It goes on for 5 pages. Oh, and it reveals the secret passwords to get in to the Temples- as of 1986, anyway. They were Reflection, Maat, Moard-Moarc.

Ah, I'm going to move this thread; it's not really about the existence of god(s). Let's put it in our Secular Lifestyle room, where you can get support for becoming an atheist in a believing society. Good luck- and I hope you let us know how it goes. Send me a private message if you want more info from that book. Jobar.

[Atheistindevelopment]

Thank you all for posting. I figured this religion was basically BS as i think other religions are BS too, the different thing here is that it is my family not some stranger pushing a book on my face. I guess like someone said here is no use to give them arguments since they will knock it down, etc.

Jobar, they are not the same[atleast not very similar in money seeking terms] as AMORC since they knock them down, they don't ask for money, my grandfather had many businesses and gave the order enough to survive without asking money or even recruiting members. Those who are now in the order are there because my grandfather "helped" them or their family in some wierd way or healing. But there are basically no new members in years.

The weird thing about this order is the also follow Krishna since it was another reincarnated high developed soul so there are other temples in India. They also keep their catholic references as they claim that the vatican eliminated a book in the bible that contained reincarnation, etc.

They also have claims on how we all use only 10% of our brains and that as we develop ourselves in the order we might develop the other areas of the brain that permit mind reading, clairvoyance adn other stuff. They also believe in alchemy.

Anyhow i hope this helps out someone else who is in the similar order or amuses anyone who doesn't believe.

[Proxima Centauri]

Sorry you've got such trouble with your family. Sometimes with groups like that you have to pretend to believe their mumbo jumbo or lose your family. I don't know the Rosacrcuians well enough to know how they would react. You must decide. Do other Infidels know about the Rosacrcuians?

[pariah]

Ask them for proof. For any of their claims. They don't have any.

Also read up on modern cognitive science, currently it is beleived that consciousness is only material. Not only is there no evidence for the existance of some sort of "soul", there is actually a large amount of evidence against it.

[Jack Kamm]

Well, if atheistindevelopment asks for proof, his family can always point to the parlor magic tricks his grandfather performed.

I would point out that the mind is dependant on the brain; when the brain is dead, the mind must die too. Therefore, there is no reincarnation. You might want to look at the life after death section of the Infidels library for some good stuff.

[pariah]

so? all atheistindev needs to say then is "anecdotal evidence be wack, yo!"

[squiddy]

To shed a little light of the Rosa Cruxis, they are an order that has existed from 1500 something. They believe in a collective entity they call Masters. This masters are the souls of reincarnated people that have reached a god-level-like-status and serve as guide to us all in our lives to achieve our goals before the next reincarnation.

And bornyetagain said:
That sounds a little like Scientology, itself a whacko sect who's followers believe in a strange thinking system invented by a science fiction writer.

Not only does it sound like Scientology, but also very much like Theosophy which claimed knowledge of ascended masters aka the "Great White Brotherhood" or the "White Lodge" or something like that. Theosophy (http://skepdic.com/theosoph.html)

It also sounds like the garbage that Eckankar spews (which I was unfortunately sucked into when I was in my early 20's)
Basically saying that all mayor leaders[jesus, buddha, etc.] of different religions have been a high level reincarnation of these masters. Another note is that they believe we reincarnate from other planets as well, so it more like a universal thing.

Eckankar was also very much like this, pretty much claiming that anybody who was anybody (historically) was an Eckist and/or an Eck Master. Eck Masters (http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/)

It seems to me that the one thing that all of these groups have in common is the claim that they come from a long line of masters, ascended or otherwise.

Good luck to you in your search for truth.

[squiddy]

They also have claims on how we all use only 10% of our brains and that as we develop ourselves in the order we might develop the other areas of the brain that permit mind reading, clairvoyance adn other stuff.

Ten Percent Myth (http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm)

[Atheistindevelopment]

Squiddy:

The Eck people are indeed very similar. Thanks for the links! Also the ten percent things was very useful.

B. Shack:
I have played the part for them your about 3 years now, it just doens't work, is like any other fundies religion they keep bringing the preaching in every chance they get. I'll guess i'll have to move or something.

Pariah:
They don't have proof of many things they don't usually even get to a conversation where they feel that they should explain anything. That's the thing when one asks too much they hit the ignore button. It's frustrating. :banghead:

Again thank you all i feel better that there are other people who have better arguments than me and shed a little light on this whole mess.