Sufficient Cause Poll

[Arvel Joffi]

Well, the argument for Sufficient Cause has finally won me over. I just can't decide exactly which cause to go with. I've narrowed it down, and would aprreciate any nudges in the direction that will result in my eternal salvation.

[Stew]

The universe steemed?

New one on me...

:confused: :)

[Arvel Joffi]

Er...yes. Yes, it did. It might look like a typographical error, but it is not. The Universe did indeed "steem."

[JEST2ASK]

I Voted for the Great Spirit although
Severe Interdimensional Indigestion
was a contributing factor:)
and it was basically a kick in the pants with no further interventaion

(OK can I have three votes)




Question; what method did you use to limit the voting options?

[Jobar]

It's Brahma, the creator, Vishnu, the preserver, and Shiva, the destroyer.

And who's Randy? Do you mean James "The Amazing" Randi? Or as in randyness (if that's it, I know what to vote for!) :D

[Magus55]

The Christian and the Hebrew God are the same thing. You should have one option called Judeo-Christian God, not two separate ones.

[Clutch]

Indeed, most of the options listed there have the same referent...

[Wyz_sub10]

Originally posted by Magus55
The Christian and the Hebrew God are the same thing...

....to Christians.

Hasidic Jews, for instance, are not as keen on the whole "Jesus" thing.

[Stew]

Originally posted by Magus55
The Christian and the Hebrew God are the same thing. You should have one option called Judeo-Christian God, not two separate ones.


Or even options for the many gods of the once polytheistic Hebrew peoples...




.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Wyz_sub10
....to Christians.

Hasidic Jews, for instance, are not as keen on the whole "Jesus" thing. They may not believe in the Trinity, but God the Father is the God of Abraham. Its the same God, irregardless of whether they believe in the Trinity.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Stew
Or even options for the many gods of the once polytheistic Hebrew peoples...




. The Israelites worshipped false pagan God's in exodus, but there is no polytheistic gods in Judaism.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by Magus55
They may not believe in the Trinity, but God the Father is the God of Abraham. Its the same God, irregardless of whether they believe in the Trinity.

And so is Allah?

[Stew]

Originally posted by Magus55
The Israelites worshipped false pagan God's in exodus, but there is no polytheistic gods in Judaism.


Well. Let's see. If as alleged in Exodus, the Israelites worshiped pagan gods, false or no, then they were... whats the word... polytheistic.


As to their gods being polytheistic themselves, that may be a possibility, but there is probably not much to substantiate that, as you indicate.


As far as other gods which might make up a potential semitic pantheon; Encarta 96, The Encyclopedia of Eastern Philosophy and Religion, and A Popular Dictionary of Judaism make reference to Gehanna ; suc that it was a " "Place of Torment." The Valley of Hinnom, south-west of Jerusalem, where Solomon, king of Israel, built "a high place", or place of worship, for the gods Chemosh and Moloch. The valley came to be regarded as a place of abomination because some of the Israelites sacrificed their children to Moloch there. In a later period it was made a refuse dump and perpetual fires were maintained there to prevent pestilence. Thus, in the New Testament, Gehenna became synonymous with hell." This would seem to indicate that Judaism may indeed have polytheistic roots.




.

[Taamalus]

I voted Randy.

What is my grade?

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Mageth
And so is Allah? Nah, Allah is a pagan moon god. Hence why Mosque's and Arab flags have a crescent moon on them.

[Mageth]

And here I thought Allah was Abraham's God. That's what the Muslims claim, isn't it? I would think they'd know better than you where their God came from.

The Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01316a.htm) gives a rather thorough treatment of Allah:

The notion of Allah in Arabic theology is substantially the same as that of God among the Jews, and also among the Christians, with the exception of the Trinity...

Here's (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html) a site with a thorough debunking of Morey's claim that Allah was originally a moon god. Note this interesting quote which Morey mangled in support of his assertion:

The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God, but early in Arabian history the name became a general term for god, and it was this name that the Hebrews used prominently in their personal names, such as Emanu-el, Israel, etc., rather than the Bapal of the northern semites proper, which was the Sun. Similarly, under Mohammed's tutelage, the relatively anonymous Ilah became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allâh, the Supreme Being. (Carleton S.Coon, Southern Arabia, (Washington, D.C. Smithsonian, 1944) p.399).

From the article:

A second problem with Dr.Morey's approach here is that he left out of Professor Coon's statement what would disprove Morey's most important argument against the God of Islam. Morey is proud of repeating that Allâh is not the God of the Bible but the Moon-god of pre-Islamic Arabia. It would have been inconvenient for him to repeat what Coon had said as follows:

...and it was this name that the Hebrews used prominently in their personal names, such as Emanu-el, Isra-el, etc..."

Morey would not let his readers understand that according to Professor Coon the same name which in South Arabia was used for the Moon-god was also used in Hebrew names like Emanu-el which Morey considers a name for Jesus.

Also note that, outside of Morey, the main source for the claim about the crescent moon being worshipped by Moslems appears to come from a Chick tract. Real scholarly source, that.

[Arvel Joffi]

All three of the Abrahamic gods stem from the same source, Magus, they just had different add-ons tacked on later. And Hebrew polytheism? "We, us, I." It's all interchangeable in the early OT.

As to the question, "Who is Randy?" Well, when we know that, all mysteries will have been solved.

http://images.toronto.com/profile/17/9c/714066p1.jpgBlessed Bea.

[Wyz_sub10]

Originally posted by Magus55
They may not believe in the Trinity, but God the Father is the God of Abraham. Its the same God, irregardless of whether they believe in the Trinity.

The god of Christians gave his son to the world as a sacrifice so that people would live eternally. There are entire books devoted to this son, who is claimed to be god made flesh.

The god of the Jews did no such thing, has no such son, and this son is certainly not god.

What you are getting at is that the roots of belief are the same - the stories which laid the foundations for the beliefs are the same.

They cannot, however, believe in the same god because that god is not consistent bewteen the two belief systems.

[Wyz_sub10]

Originally posted by Magus55
Nah, Allah is a pagan moon god. Hence why Mosque's and Arab flags have a crescent moon on them.

You've been reading too many Chick tracts, my friend.

Regardless of the associations Islam has with paganism, the root of belief is that Allah is the god of Abraham - which was the very example you used for linking Judaism and Christianity.

As for associating with paganism, how do you account for Chrsitianity's associations? (i.e. Easter, All Souls Day)

The bottom line is that it is incredibly hypocritical to tie Jud/Christ together using a link that you simply refused to acknowledge with Islam.

You may not like the association, and granted that those religions diverge significantly in many ways, but Allah is indeed, by all accounts, the "god of Abraham."

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Wyz_sub10
The god of Christians gave his son to the world as a sacrifice so that people would live eternally. There are entire books devoted to this son, who is claimed to be god made flesh.

The god of the Jews did no such thing, has no such son, and this son is certainly not god.

What you are getting at is that the roots of belief are the same - the stories which laid the foundations for the beliefs are the same.

They cannot, however, believe in the same god because that god is not consistent bewteen the two belief systems. Actually, they can believe in the same God, and it is consistent. The trinity is mentioned in the OT. Most Jews don't accept Jesus because they look at it as only a Christian doctrine, and don't realize that He was the real Messiah. The Jews have a "veil" over their eyes, hiding them from the truth ( and this is Biblical). And yes, I do know what i'm talking about since my entire family is Jewish, and i've discussed Jesus with them, and what they believe. The God of the OT, and the NT is the same God, most Jews just reject Jesus as the Messiah because the documents from Jewish authority say nothing about the Messiah being divine ( the Bible does though).

God said that the Jews would reject Jesus as the Messiah, which is why Salvation was opened up to the Gentiles. But God isn't finished with the Jews and Israel, and He will remove their blindness and show them they have been wrong all this time ( the entire Bible revolves around Jesus and Israel ). The closer we get to the end times, the more involved Israel gets with Biblical prophecy.

[Magus55]

Originally posted by Wyz_sub10
You've been reading too many Chick tracts, my friend.

Regardless of the associations Islam has with paganism, the root of belief is that Allah is the god of Abraham - which was the very example you used for linking Judaism and Christianity.

As for associating with paganism, how do you account for Chrsitianity's associations? (i.e. Easter, All Souls Day)

The bottom line is that it is incredibly hypocritical to tie Jud/Christ together using a link that you simply refused to acknowledge with Islam.

You may not like the association, and granted that those religions diverge significantly in many ways, but Allah is indeed, by all accounts, the "god of Abraham."

You're right in that there are pagan influences within "organized" Christianity. Catholics brought about the Paganism ( paganism is rampant within the Catholic church), but Christianity and the Bible have nothing to do with Paganism. It comes from Catholicism ( which is a big reason why many Christians regard Catholicism as a false cult - they worship a pagan goddess).

Islam comes from Ishmael, who was Abraham's son through Sarah's ( Abraham's wife) slave girl. God's covenant didn't go through Ishmael, it went through Isaac and Jacob.

And Allah isn't the same God, because Yahweh and Allah are complete opposites. During the earlier times, Allah may have been referenced to the same God as the Jews and Christians, but Mohammed turned Allah into his own little political weapon. The Allah found in the Quran, is not the God I worship.

[Mullibok]

Originally posted by Magus55
The Jews have a "veil" over their eyes, hiding them from the truth ( and this is Biblical).

Well jeez when a religion that props itself up on the Jewish Bible gets rejected by the Jews, what do you think it will say about them? That they see the truth clearly?

The trinity is never mentioned in the Tanakh, people can rave on about Elohim until the cows come home but there are certainly other explanations that explain that just as well or better. The trinity is most certainly never mentioned explicitly and I think you'd have to admit that, unless you can find a place where it says God is exactly three separate things.

[Mageth]

But obviously there are millions of Jews who totally disagree with your distinctly Christian interpretation, Magus.

Here's (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-tr.html) one site that does so.

And, like I accept the word of the Muslims over your assertions, I accept their interpretation of their holy texts as concerns their religion over a Christian's interpretation.

[Wyz_sub10]

Originally posted by Magus55
Actually, they can believe in the same God, and it is consistent. The trinity is mentioned in the OT. Most Jews don't accept Jesus because they look at it as only a Christian doctrine, and don't realize that He was the real Messiah.

Right, it is the Christian version of god. Not the Jewish version of god.

The Jews have a "veil" over their eyes, hiding them from the truth ( and this is Biblical). And yes, I do know what i'm talking about since my entire family is Jewish, and i've discussed Jesus with them, and what they believe. The God of the OT, and the NT is the same God, most Jews just reject Jesus as the Messiah because the documents from Jewish authority say nothing about the Messiah being divine ( the Bible does though).

This is a major difference in belief. What you are saying is that, to Christians, the god of the OT and the NT are the same. But if Jews do not acknowledge the truth of the NT, then that god cannot be theirs. You think it's the same, they do not because their god never died on the cross.

God said that the Jews would reject Jesus as the Messiah, which is why Salvation was opened up to the Gentiles. But God isn't finished with the Jews and Israel, and He will remove their blindness and show them they have been wrong all this time ( the entire Bible revolves around Jesus and Israel ). The closer we get to the end times, the more involved Israel gets with Biblical prophecy.

Well, I don't want to argue the interpretation with you, but we probably can agree that Jews do not accept the above.

Again, it comes back to the Christian god and the Jewish god. Your god will remove their blindness, their god will do no such thing.

[Wyz_sub10]

Originally posted by Magus55
You're right in that there are pagan influences within "organized" Christianity. Catholics brought about the Paganism ( paganism is rampant within the Catholic church), but Christianity and the Bible have nothing to do with Paganism.

There are many scholars who argue that these pagan influences can be seen in the bible. This topic has been debated before, but it's more of a BC&H topic.

"Paganism" is a bit wishy-washy in terms of definition. But Romans influences undoubtedly shaped Christian traditions from the get-go.

It comes from Catholicism ( which is a big reason why many Christians regard Catholicism as a false cult - they worship a pagan goddess).

I spent many, many years in the Catholic church, and I can tell you that the church does not espouse the "worship" of Mary as a divine figure. The role of Mary and the Saints is complex, but still ridiculous. Individuals may, of course, worship Mary or St. Patrick or a burrito that looks like Jesus. But the paganism in the Catholic church isn't really about any of these things. Rather, it's about the details of Jesus's life, his works and qualities, etc.

Many of these transfer well into other branches of Christianity.

Islam comes from Ishmael, who was Abraham's son through Sarah's ( Abraham's wife) slave girl. God's covenant didn't go through Ishmael, it went through Isaac and Jacob.

You can visit here http://www.origin-of-islam.com/ to see Allah mentioned as the god of Abraham. It's clear that they believe this to be true, just as you believe the Jews to be in denial.

But let's be clear - you acknowledge that Ishmael was Abraham's son, so it is the same Abraham that all 3 are talking about. And the story of Adam and Eve, etc. is in the Qur'an. Clearly you all have the same god in mind.

Honestly Magus, the Christians cannot speak for everyone. You would have me believe that it's up to the Christians to decide whether the Jews and Muslims share your god.

And Allah isn't the same God, because Yahweh and Allah are complete opposites.

How so?

During the earlier times, Allah may have been referenced to the same God as the Jews and Christians, but Mohammed turned Allah into his own little political weapon. The Allah found in the Quran, is not the God I worship.

I'm not about to defend Muhammad, but you do realize that the same can be said for the apostles.

I'm not sure what you find objectionable in the Qu'ran that cannot also be found in the OT.

Look at the following from the Qu'ran:

"Call to mind when the Angels said to Mary: Allah, through his word, gives thee glad tidings of a son named the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honoured in this world and the next, and of those who are granted nearness to Allah. He shall admonish people in his early years and also in his ripe years, and he shall be of the righteous. Mary said: Lord, how shall I have a son, when no man has touched me? He answered: Such is the power of Allah, He creates what He pleases... He will teach him the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel and will make him a Messenger to the children of Israel, bearing the message: I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord...."
- Chapter 3, Verses 46-52

This seems consistent with the NT tradition. In fact, it is clear that the Muslims harbour a perception of Jesus much closer to that of Christians than do the Jews.

[Keith Russell]

The universe exists.

It did not 'stem from'...

K