Shut Off Their Brains

[Malagasy Rain]

Do any of you honestly view Christians or theists in particular as mentally or intellectually defective? Truth be told, I do sometimes and I realize it's a very stereotypical view and that there are many theistic intellectuals. Though I feel that their beliefs and convictions are often by virtue of a lack of serious thinking.

[Ab_Normal]

For the theists in my family (which include a higher-than-average concentration of engineers), I think it's compartmentalization, not ignorance. Since they're Roman Catholic, they can get their whole religion thing out of the way once a week (plus grace before meals) and don't have to worry about it the rest of the time - most RCs in the US, in my experience, ignore a lot of the church's inconvenient teachings, such as birth control.

[Malagasy Rain]

Yeah it's fascinating how some theists can just "wall" off their brains like that.

[geniph]

There are probably as many reasons why people do believe religious legends as there are for not believing them. We're not all secularists for the same reasons, so I wouldn't expect the theistic to all be so for the same reasons, either.

Certainly some are intellectually incurious. And there's those who take comfort from ritual and tradition. Others like the social aspects. Some are simply people who like things to be either "good" or "evil", "black" or "white" and can't deal with shades of grey. Some have had some kind of personal epiphany. There are as many reasons as there are believers, just as there are as many reasons as there are non-believers (look at the "testimony" sticky thread).

[Gothic_J]

Originally posted by Aurora Elegance
Do any of you honestly view Christians or theists in particular as mentally or intellectually defective? Truth be told, I do sometimes and I realize it's a very stereotypical view and that there are many theistic intellectuals. Though I feel that their beliefs and convictions are often by virtue of a lack of serious thinking.

yes I do. perhaps Ive become overly hostile, but I regard all theists working with their brains unplugged, religion as an excuse for bloodsoaked nihilism, and I despise someone saying god bless to me.

Ill have to shut *up* about that if I want to play politics :D

[xorbie]

A pretty intelligent Jewish friend of mine put it to me this way: "I think God is Truth, and just following the laws makes me feel better about life." He knows I am an atheist, and is not trying to convert me. Quite frankly, I say good for him.

[Secular Elation]

While I can understand how more intelligent people can still believe in the existence of a god, I simply cannot comprehend how anyone, including the intellectual theists, could believe in religion. If one looks into the history and psychology behind religion, one finds more and more reasons to dismiss religion as bunk. For example, the Bible talks about a day where the sun stands still, where a human being is made into a pillar, and where a man is resurrected from death. All miraculous events--but why doesn't anything even remotely mystical happen today, or in recorded history? Nothing so supernatural has ever occured, it was only fictionalized in the ancient religious scripts. I simply cannot understand how anyone could not realize this. As for the story about the sun standing still, that is simply, flat-out impossible. I don't care what any theological bonehead will argue, it is simply impossible.

Beyond this, how could anyone not have a problem with eternal punishment for those who do not believe in religion? It absolutely baffles my mind how the millions of Christians have no problem with the fact that people who do not accept their same beliefs will endure everlasting torture. Simply boggles me.

[Mullibok]

Originally posted by xorbie
A pretty intelligent Jewish friend of mine put it to me this way: "I think God is Truth, and just following the laws makes me feel better about life." He knows I am an atheist, and is not trying to convert me. Quite frankly, I say good for him.

A great thing about Judaism is conversion is not part of their mantra. Unless you're Jewish and most likely in another faith as opposed to lacking faith, they won't bother you.

I've seen some religious types refuse to look at things like any paper with the name Darwin on it, some who will look at things but then just say "no", and some that are really quite reasonable generally and who I feel no need to pick a religion argument with. They come in all stripes.

[Godless Wonder]

The one's I've talked to who I considered to be smart have had this way of sealing off their beliefs into a "logic tight compartment", as apt a description as I've heard. Debating with them, we always come to an impasse at which they explicitly bar entry to arguments based on rational thought. Well, what other kind of argument is there? There is not anything anyone could ever say which can change their beliefs. Even they cannot change their beliefs. They have just accepted their beliefs as the brutest of given facts and that's that, evidence to the contrary be damned. Mere proofs of impossibility reached via rational thought of are no match for a supernatural being. Even if it were possible to prove God's nonexistence to some of these people, that would not be good enough, as any such proof would be based in rational thought, which is to them, insufficient. It is very odd.

[jafosei]

Do any of you honestly view Christians or theists in particular as mentally or intellectually defective?

I don't. It may be a defensive instinct: I was a Christian for much of my life, and only admitted recently to myself that I no longer believed. I don't think I was mentally or intellectually defective when I believed, but that may be because I just don't like to think that negatively of myself.

I still have many friends who are devout believers, and I don't consider them defective either. They are, by and large, intelligent and thoughtful people, and I am happy to know them and have them in my life.

I think Ab_Normal's comment about compartmentalization sums it up nicely. People often choose areas of thought which they will actively pursue, and choose areas that they will leave untouched.

That's how I felt about my belief for a long time: certain aspects of my faith were fundamental to me, the basis upon which I viewed the world. That fundamental basis was untouched because I believed that it represented me in some clear and true sense. Messing with it didn't seem productive; it would have been like attacking myself, and why would I want to do that?

Despite that, my compartmentalization failed and the thoughtfulness I applied to the rest of my life finally broke through to my (dis)belief in God. It took a long time for this to happen completely, probably about a decade. Others may be better at maintaining the walls.

Keep in mind that very few people live their lives without any mental barriers. It's easy to dismiss others who 'fail' to understand what we understand. For myself, though, I know that I have frequently been mistaken, and I'm reasonably certain that I will be mistaken again.

We develop beliefs because that's what our brains do. We seek patterns and try to find some sort of explanation for them. Frequently, we develop our beliefs too quickly or without enough information, but once we have them, they're tough to shake. Any given individual will likely have a number of false beliefs. It's not because we're all defective; it's just the way we work.

[Buddrow_Wilson]

While I do believe that with greater intelligence comes an increased likelihood to not accept superstitious beliefs, there is certainly much more to it. I think it may be an emotional or perhaps even genetic component that is necessary in order to create this compartmentalization scenario. Perhaps if you do have this emotional predisposition and are intelligent, it gives you a better chance to shake the bindings of your ancestors. Being that I have never been a theist, its really hard for me to understand, and I probably come off sounding elitist or something, but from my perspective the amount of intelligence needed to reject these things is very minimal.

Also, there is likely a certain percentage of theists that are secretly, intellectually agnostic, but embrace the church because they are convinced it is necessary for a moral society...and they enjoy the socializing.

Then there is the cynical part of me that thinks most religious leaders are actually power-hungry atheists.

Anyway, my honest repsonse to:

Do any of you honestly view Christians or theists in particular as mentally or intellectually defective?

When they are 100% certain that they have direct knowledge of their deity and its desires, yes I do.

[jafosei]

... the amount of intelligence needed to reject these things is very minimal.

I don't intend to disagree with your comment above, but the question of intelligence and (false) belief is an interesting one and not necessarily a simple one.

I think it was Michael Shermer writing in Why people believe weird things who said that intelligent people often cling more fiercely to their irrational beliefs because they are intelligent enough to be able to justify them. The beliefs themselves may arise for irrational reasons, but once they're there, the believer can rationalize and justify them in many different ways.

Intelligent people also often tend to reject the idea that they have formed a belief for an irrational reason, since that ties into their idea of themselves as intelligent people. The ego is a hard master.

[SiliconWolf]

Originally posted by Ab_Normal
For the theists in my family (which include a higher-than-average concentration of engineers), I think it's compartmentalization, not ignorance. Since they're Roman Catholic, they can get their whole religion thing out of the way once a week (plus grace before meals) and don't have to worry about it the rest of the time - most RCs in the US, in my experience, ignore a lot of the church's inconvenient teachings, such as birth control.

This is more or less exactly the way people I know act, although some are more strict about following church doctrines than others.

This thread reminds me of an idea I had as a kid growing up Catholic. I thought the sign of the cross (before and after Mass or prayers) was used to switch between prayer mode and the real world. Observing the behavior of most of the mainstream theists I know, including my younger self, that is pretty much how it works.

[Barcode]

If somebody is especially devout, then yes, I tend to take a rather .... negative .... view of their intellectual abilities. But, in my experience, the religious people I know are usually innately intelligent ... they just have no idea how to *use* it, and thus, remain uninformed.

My Catholic girlfriend for instance is one of the most intelligent people I know, but when it comes to religion, it's like some wall goes up. She thinks she has a rational basis for her beliefs, despite the fact she freely admits she doesn't like to question too much and says she accepts things because it's not up to her to figure them out.

I sometimes find it puzzling that someone who applies reason to every other area of their life somehow exempts religion from the same cross examination ...

[Bright Life]

Do any of you honestly view Christians or theists in particular as mentally or intellectually defective?

Some yes. I once worked for a man who claimed that his pastor had a direct link with God. His pastor supposedly sat down with God frequently in special "visions," and asked for direction for his "flock." Whatever the pastor reported was the "god's honest truth" (sorry).

I asked him once, "So if Pastor X told you God said to 'drink this, it is my blood,' you would do it?"

"of course!" he said.

"What if it was Kool-Aid, and it smelled like almonds?" :D

He gave me an odd look and said, "yeah."

I just smiled, shook my head and walked away. I still don't know if he "got it."


As for most xians, I find that they have simply walled this area off in the brain and marked it "NO TRESPASSING!" Many members of my family are like this. They are otherwise intelligent individuals--it's just this section of their lives is carefully and meticulously unexamined.

[Mageth]

Originally posted by jafosei
I don't intend to disagree with your comment above, but the question of intelligence and (false) belief is an interesting one and not necessarily a simple one.

I think it was Michael Shermer writing in Why people believe weird things who said that intelligent people often cling more fiercely to their irrational beliefs because they are intelligent enough to be able to justify them. The beliefs themselves may arise for irrational reasons, but once they're there, the believer can rationalize and justify them in many different ways.

Intelligent people also often tend to reject the idea that they have formed a belief for an irrational reason, since that ties into their idea of themselves as intelligent people. The ego is a hard master.

I totally agree.

And it was Shermer, specifically in the revised edition of the book Why People Believe Weird Things, which had the added chapter Why Smart People Believe Weird Things.

[Division By Zero]

I don't usually think of religious people as intellectually defective, except perhaps the total fanatics.

I do think religious people think defectively about their religion.

Others have mentioned compartmentalization, which is a perfect description. A person can be highly intelligent and logical, but also mentally lock their Bible in a stainless steel safe and throw it into the depths of the ocean, out of reach of rational examination.

A little childhood indoctrination combined with continued social reinforcement can keep that safe at the bottom of the intellectual ocean forever.

[niggle]

Yes, to hold onto irrational beliefs like religion, regardless of the reason, is intellectually defective. Of course, it comes in degrees.

[wildernesse]

EGAD! How DO you people live with all the loonies running about loose!?! What kind of lives do you lead, knowing that most people you meet will be defective--most of your colleagues, neighbors, employees, teachers! Imagine, being taught by a mentally defective person! It's a shame that you, the bright little lights of humanity, are being subjected to this. (Pardon the giggles.)

If not one thread, it's another! I'm beginning to wonder if there even is an EAC cover-up these days! Rufus' personal propaganda mill must be jammed--or was I blinded by love? Maybe he was the one blinded by love. . .what will he do when he finds out his wife is really an intellectually defective inferior! Great googly-moogly, do you think he suspects?

--tibac

[Roland98]

Wildernesse,

I think you found us out. Rufus must be slacking--you were supposed to be deconverted long ago. ;)


But seriously, even the OP states that she recognizes it as a stereotype. I think it's a case akin to recall bias; we don't think about the rational, intelligent Christians we see everday IRL or online; the ones that stick out in our memory are the ones who tell we atheists that we're all going to Hell, that we're the cause of everything bad in the universe, etc. And then when asked to defend their view, we find they hadn't even read the Bible or something of that nature (and certainly, you've seen some of the spelling and grammar atrocities in some posts on Christian boards--it doesn't help to dispel that sterotype either :p) . Similarly, some Christians think of atheists as evil, lustful, binge-drinking kitten-kickers who go around waving their fist in the air and proclaiming, "There is no God!!!!" Of course, you know this isn't true; like the "stupid, deluded Christian," you'll probably find a few if you look, but by and large, neither group is well-represented by the sterotype.

[Malagasy Rain]

Originally posted by Roland98
Wildernesse,

I think you found us out. Rufus must be slacking--you were supposed to be deconverted long ago. ;)


But seriously, even the OP states that she recognizes it as a stereotype. I think it's a case akin to recall bias; we don't think about the rational, intelligent Christians we see everday IRL or online; the ones that stick out in our memory are the ones who tell we atheists that we're all going to Hell, that we're the cause of everything bad in the universe, etc. And then when asked to defend their view, we find they hadn't even read the Bible or something of that nature (and certainly, you've seen some of the spelling and grammar atrocities in some posts on Christian boards--it doesn't help to dispel that sterotype either :p) . Similarly, some Christians think of atheists as evil, lustful, binge-drinking kitten-kickers who go around waving their fist in the air and proclaiming, "There is no God!!!!" Of course, you know this isn't true; like the "stupid, deluded Christian," you'll probably find a few if you look, but by and large, neither group is well-represented by the sterotype. FYI, I'm a teenage boy.;)